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 woobytoodsday
Joined: 12/13/2006
Msg: 252
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline DelayedPage 11 of 21    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21)
Ah! This is such good news!! May it continue!


For the solar and wind industries in the United States, it has been a long-held dream: to produce energy at a cost equal to conventional sources like coal and natural gas.

That day appears to be dawning.

The cost of providing electricity from wind and solar power plants has plummeted over the last five years, so much so that in some markets renewable generation is now cheaper than coal or natural gas.

Utility executives say the trend has accelerated this year, with several companies signing contracts, known as power purchase agreements, for solar or wind at prices below that of natural gas, especially in the Great Plains and Southwest, where wind and sunlight are abundant.

Those prices were made possible by generous subsidies that could soon diminish or expire, but recent analyses show that even without those subsidies, alternative energies can often compete with traditional sources.


http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/24/business/energy-environment/solar-and-wind-energy-start-to-win-on-price-vs-conventional-fuels.html?emc=edit_th_20141124&nl=todaysheadlines&nlid=45660555
 Olwhatzhisname
Joined: 11/18/2014
Msg: 253
view profile
History
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 11/24/2014 8:52:51 PM

The oil will still be moved no matter if by rail or pipeline, the pipeline is safer. We all want better ways but when you have some politicians like Hillary "wall street" Clinton, you will never see much change when money talks.


Yes, John255317, this crude oil moves by rail, & the sheer volume of this oil constitutes 11% of the total freight weight of the entire rail industry, & that percentage grows every year. Imagine that...thats how much crude oil is carried by rail car tankers. Its mind boggling, & many people cannot fathom the amount. Warren Buffett & his Berkshire Hathaway rail empire is the main beneficiary of this.

Lugging this oil 24/7, which constitutes a whopping 11+% of total railroad freight weight, requires the railroads to burn millions of gallons of diesel fuel per year hauling it to destinations thousands of miles away, rather than it being pumped through a pipeline. Try to imagine the health & climate impact from burning millions of gallons of diesel fuel per year hauling crude oil in thousands railroad tankers 24/7 that could/should be in a dedicated pipeline. That sure puts alot of pollution into the air....especially right here in Columbus, as these oil trains roll right through town, blowing diesel fumes into MY air.


Diesel exhaust is a complex mixture of thousands of gases and fine particles that contains more than 40 toxic air contaminants. These include cancer-causing substances such as benzene, arsenic and formaldehyde, as well as other seriously harmful pollutants.

The microscopic particles in diesel exhaust are less than one-fifth the thickness of a human hair, small enough to penetrate deep into the lungs and bloodstream, causing inflammation, asthma attacks, heart attacks and strokes, and worsening lung disease in the elderly and young. The World Health Organisation says long-term exposure to these particles — called PM2.5s because they are just two-and-a-half thousands of a millimetre across — alters the way children's brains grow and could make them less intelligent.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2617425/The-deadly-diesel-deception-We-bullied-buying-diesel-cars-help-fight-global-warming-Now-experts-say-green-fuel-killing-thousands-us.html#ixzz3Jwp2EFDa

Millions of gallons of diesel fuel are burned yearly hauling these crude oil tankers through your neighborhood & my neighborhood, rather than piping it through a dedicated pipeline. We all know how dangerous diesel exhaust is to our health & climate. We know how many millions of gallons of it are burned hauling untold thousands of crude oil tank cars thousands of miles to their destinations. We all know the chances of these crude oil tank cars derailing, spilling, & burning, spewing even more hydrocarbons into the land, water & atmosphere, killing people and wildlife, all because some crybabies dont want a pipeline.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 254
view profile
History
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 11/25/2014 2:09:01 PM
Wooby ... Our esteemed governor is putting a halt to Ohio getting cheaper energy.
(May 2014) ...
http://www.midwestenergynews.com/2014/06/19/industry-setback-changes-will-end-new-wind-farms-in-ohio/
Industry: Setback changes will end new wind farms in Ohio

Posted on 06/19/2014 by Kathiann M. Kowalski
With little discussion or fanfare, Ohio legislators have essentially put a stop to new wind farms in the state, industry experts say.

Governor John Kasich signed House Bill 483 on Monday, just days after signing another bill that freezes and alters Ohio’s renewable energy and energy efficiency standards. HB 483 includes revised setback provisions that will likely make new projects economically unfeasible.

The bill “basically zones new wind projects out of Ohio,” says Eric Thumma, Director of Policy and Regulatory Affairs for Iberdrola Renewables, Inc.

Iberdrola’s Ohio wind farm projects include the 304 MW Blue Creek Wind Farm in Van Wert and Paulding County. About ten of its Ohio projects are fully permitted, but not yet constructed. The new law lets already-permitted projects continue, but only if no amendments to the permit become necessary.

Two additional projects in Putnam County and Van Wert County have not yet been permitted. Those probably will not go forward as a result of HB 483.

“It would take one of the projects from 50 turbines to 7, and another project from 75 to 3,” says Thumma. “The economics are not going to work if you have such reduced projects.”

Last-minute setback
For any new commercial wind farms, HB 483 will now require a setback of 1,125 feet from the tip of a turbine’s blades to the nearest property line. In practice, that will require setbacks of about 1,300 feet from each turbine’s base.

The new law makes an exception for existing facilities and ones that had already gotten permits. For those projects, the Ohio Power Siting Board measured the 1,125-foot setback to the outer wall of the “nearest, habitable, residential structure” on neighboring property. Otherwise, property line setbacks were roughly 550 feet.

HB 483 is part of Kasich’s mid-biennium budget review, and most of the law deals with tax cuts, spending for social programs, and other matters. An earlier version of the bill would have doubled the maximum penalties for violations of gas pipeline rules. The Ohio House Finance Committee deleted that provision.

The wind setback provision appeared for the first time when the Ohio Senate Finance Committee reported the bill out in May.

There was literally no public testimony” on the new setback provision, says Dayna Baird Payne. The Columbus lobbyist represents the American Wind Energy Association, as well as Iberdrola.

“They didn’t consult with industry. They didn’t consult with the Ohio Power Siting Board, who sites wind farms in Ohio,” Payne adds.

Indeed, the Ohio Senate spent barely ten minutes discussing the last-minute changes before passing the bill on May 21.

“A provision like this to change the setbacks will significantly hurt those projects in the pipeline and will significantly hurt jobs in Ohio,” protested state Sen. Mike Skindell, a Democrat from suburban Cleveland.

Issues regarding setbacks should be “debated [in] a reasonable manner, not just tucked away without any public discussion in a bill,” Skindell continued. “I’m dumbfounded.”

“Here we’re going to have a quarter-mile setback from a property line…for wind turbines,” Skindell added. “We only have a 100- or 200-foot setback for an oil or gas well being drilled next to a home.”

In response, Cincinnati-area Republican State Senator Bill Seitz railed against turbines’ noise, the possibility of snow being thrown from blades, and flicker that “would mess up even Tiger Woods’ game.”

“We are conforming setback law for wind turbines, making them play by the same rules that everybody else plays by,” Seitz insisted. “We are still being very friendly to the future development of wind farms in Ohio.”

Wind energy experts disagree.

Devastating’ and ‘cost-prohibitive
“It’s really a bill that has the effect of making wind an uneconomic resource in Ohio,” Thumma says.

“It does kill all future wind development in the state of Ohio,” agrees Payne. Until now, Ohio has had two setbacks for wind turbines—one from property lines and one from residences or “habitable structures.”

Compared to other states, the property line setback was “right in the middle of the pack,” Payne says. With one unusual exception, though, Ohio’s setback from residences was “the toughest in the country.”

Now HB 483 “takes the residential structure setback where we’re the toughest in the country and applies it to property lines,” Payne says. That more than doubles the property line setbacks and in some cases increases them “almost threefold.”

If HB 483’s setback had applied to the Blue Creek Wind Farm, only about a dozen of its 152 wind turbines could have been built.

“You can’t lease that much land for only 12 turbines,” Payne says. “It would be cost prohibitive.”

“These are large capital projects,” stresses Thumma. To justify that expense, wind farms need sufficient turbines to produce enough electricity so they can make a profit.

Figuring out where to place each turbine is already a challenge. “First of all, it has to be windy at that site,” explains Thumma. “Even within hundreds of yards of each other, wind can be slightly better than at other locations.”

“You have to maximize that within the concept of public safety” and other factors, Thumma continues. That means accounting for general safety, possible ice throw, sound levels, and potential flicker effects. Analyzing all those factors requires substantial studies and engineering.

With additional setbacks from property lines, the siting job becomes “essentially impossible,” says Thumma. “You’re talking millions of dollars that’s been invested in all these projects that would be unrecoverable.”

Commercial wind farm developers aren’t the only ones who will lose out. Projects often use local labor to build and maintain equipment.

This is a job killer,” Skindell said when he tried to get the provisions removed from HB 483.

Ohio farmers will lose money too. Wind energy companies generally place turbines on agricultural land leased from rural farmers. In return, each farmer gets guaranteed income.

“It takes about an acre out of production, and they’re getting a lease payment,” explains William Spratley, executive director of Green Energy Ohio. “That’s a true cash crop to the farmer to be paid that.”

Local communities will also miss out on tax money from wind energy developers. “That money largely supports schools,” Spratley says. Limits of future wind development will prevent more strapped school districts from getting that “huge boon.”

A double whammy
Last Friday Kasich also signed Senate Bill 310 into law. The bill freezes Ohio’s clean energy law for two years and then dramatically changes the renewable energy and energy efficiency standards.

Kasich signed SB 310 despite opposition from multiple consumer, business, and environmental groups. The Office of the Ohio Consumers’ Counsel and the Ohio Manufacturers Association both predicted that the “inevitable outcome” of SB 310 “will be higher electricity costs for businesses and residential customers.”

Getting hit with the new wind setbacks plus the overall impacts of Senate Bill 310 is “kind of a double whammy,” says Spratley.

Among other things, SB 310 eliminates the in-state requirement for renewable energy. The law also broadens the scope of what counts under the standards.

Both changes will likely lower demand for Ohio-based wind energy and other forms of renewable energy.

“You would have Ohio ratepayers paying for existing resources in other states and not getting any benefit for it,” Thumma says.

Moreover, it’s not clear whether even the relaxed standards will kick back in after the two-year freeze.

SB 310 sets up an Energy Mandates Study Committee. However, the law defines the committee’s tasks narrowly. And it announces an intent to pass future legislation to reduce “the costs of future energy mandates, if there are to be any.”

Even if the freeze is just temporary, the uncertainty will disrupt business planning. That will increase the business risks for existing and planned clean energy projects. Potential new projects will become even more uncertain.

The uncertainty “over time is just going to dampen investment,” says Thumma. Ohio will become “just too risky a place” for companies to invest millions in capital resources.

The freeze, the study committee, and other provisions send “a signal that renewables aren’t going to happen in Ohio—certainly in the near term and under the structure of SB 310,” Thumma says.

It’s the worst possible law you could write,” Thumma adds.

Green Energy Ohio is a member of RE-AMP, which publishes Midwest Energy News.


Just one of many ways "Mr. Wall Street" has been killing the jobs here in Ohio. It appears to be his agenda ... kill jobs, raise the price of energy. He is a true pawn of the Koch Brothers.
 gtomustang
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 255
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 11/25/2014 5:13:59 PM
Why does America still use coal? B/c its cheap to mine when the companies aren't paying fines for dangerous conditions (NPR had a series last week on this) and when the waste ponds leak into the rivers--which of course requires a lot of campaign contributions. But the other reason its cheap (well, until recently--the cost of natural gas is starting to outprice it) is we have an infrastructure for burning it since the 1920's. We don't have to create a new one, like other things we heat to boil water to turn a turbine.

Diesel--even biodiesel--isn't beneficial for emissions, even when you use urea-injection. Its for fuel consumption. Some of those big ships use a high-sulfur, poorly refined version that wouldn't be allowed for sale inside most territorial waters. no one mentioned electric cars--technology from 1909, but it was considered for "ladies cars" and real men used gas instead of steam--but today's direct-injection gas and diesel engines match the mileage of electric cars, which of course moves emissions to the power plant.

and, yeah, I'll admit, if I lived out on the wide open prairie, driving some tin can like a Smart car would feel like a waste of all that availible space.
 calguy14
Joined: 8/17/2014
Msg: 256
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 11/25/2014 5:29:04 PM
@gto
Large ships have to use elaborate water scrubbers inside most territorial waters these days.Clean water is returned to the sea.This system can take up thousands of square feet.I don't believe they switch fuels.

@cotter
Electric trains,do you mean light rapid transit?Those have electrified rails,the old streetcars had overhead lines.Freight locomotives are diesel electric,basically a huge generator.
 HFX_RGB
Joined: 7/26/2014
Msg: 257
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 11/25/2014 5:41:12 PM
Some of those big ships use a high-sulfur, poorly refined version that wouldn't be allowed for sale inside most territorial waters.


That is correct, ship traffic is one of the biggest polluters on the planet, as for the most part they are unregulated.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Large ships have to use elaborate water scrubbers inside most territorial waters these days.


Which would only account for a small fraction of the fuel burned.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

and speaking of dirty ships...


90 Pounds Of Cocaine Found On Cargo Ship Owned By Sen Mitch McConnell’s Family November 10, 2014 by Jack Blood

A cargo ship connected to Kentucky Senator Mitch McConnell was recently stopped and searched before departing from Colombia. During the search, Colombian Coast Guard agents seized roughly 90 pounds of cocaine.


The drugs were found on the Ping May, which is a vessel operated by the Foremost Maritime Corporation, a company owned by Mitch McConnell’s in-laws, the Chao family. This connection is not only relevant because of the family connection, but also because the Chao family has often made large donations to McConnell’s campaigns.



In fact, the Chao family has been funding McConnell since the late 1980s. Years later, in 1993, McConnell married Elaine Chao and secured the Chao family as one of his primary sources for investments.

A gift worth somewhere between 5 and 25 million dollars from the Chao Family made McConnel one of the richest senators in the country in 2008. The Foremost Maritime Corporation is currently operating 16 dry bulk cargo ships, most of which are currently still in service. What makes this case even more interesting is that McConnell is well known as a staunch prohibitionist. In 1996, McConnell sponsored “The Enhanced Marijuana Penalties Act”, a bill designed to increase the mandatory minimum sentencing for people caught with marijuana.

Read more at: http://deadlinelive.info/2014/11/10/90-pounds-of-cocaine-found-on-cargo-ship-owned-by-sen-mitch-mcconnells-family/

Wow, quite the upstanding family he has got there, but at least is he is not brown, so lets just give the turtle a pass on this one, MMMmmkkkay?
 woobytoodsday
Joined: 12/13/2006
Msg: 258
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 11/25/2014 9:31:21 PM
gto-- worse than that, for the last twenty years or so, the coal companies have been playing round robin that looks like this: a mining company sells itself to another. Who goes to court claiming it can't do business because overhead is too high. It gets permission to defund retirement pensions. It gets permission to drop past commitments. When the mine reopens, it won't hire any union miners, so no new pensions to save for. It's out of the bookkeeping now. There are virtually no union mines. Coal is cheap. Miners have no protection without the unions.


Bush Picks Former Coal Operator To Head Mine Safety Agency

WASHINGTON -- The former coal operator chosen by President Bush to oversee mine safety received a medal from Pennsylvania's governor for his work when nine trapped miners were rescued in 2002. But Richard Stickler is likely to be questioned closely about that work next week at his Senate confirmation hearing.

The United Mine Workers union has criticized the safety record of the mines in Pennsylvania and West Virginia that Stickler, 61, operated before he was appointed to run Pennsylvania's Bureau of Deep Mine Safety in 1997. On Tuesday, the union sent Bush a letter asking him to withdraw the federal nomination.

The Quecreek accident in Pennsylvania occurred while Stickler was at the helm of the state agency, and the lawyer who represents eight of the miners who were rescued said he does not support Stickler's appointment because of the secrecy involved in the investigation that followed. Also, a grand jury in 2003 determined the state agency should have red-flagged mapping problems that were blamed for miners at Quecreek breaching an abandoned mine that released millions of gallons of water that trapped them for 77 hours.

EDIT

In 1997, the United Mine Workers opposed Stickler's nomination to run the state agency, which he went on to lead until 2003. The agency has a current budget of $5.7 million compared with MSHA's $277 million operating budget for 2006. Citing federal records, the union wrote in a letter to Ridge before Stickler's Pennsylvania appointment that an evaluation by the union showed there were incident rates in mines he ran that doubled the national average in six of eight years, and one of the mines he managed for five years had two fatal accidents during that time.

EDIT/END


http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AI...

Ex-Executive Donald Blankenship Is Indicted in Disaster at ...
www.nytimes.com/.../ex-executive-donald-blankenshi...
The New York Times
Nov 13, 2014 - Ex-Executive Donald Blankenship Is Indicted in Disaster at Coal Mine ... in the nation's worst coal mine disaster in 40 years, in which 29 men died in ... “As he goes to trial, he will be treated far fairer and with more dignity than ...

Mother Jones is spinning in her grave. . . .
 usernonymous
Joined: 8/18/2011
Msg: 259
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 11/26/2014 4:12:14 AM
I would think that with the price of oil at where it is now, the fact that the USA is a net exporter of oil and the cost of processing alberta oil, the point of the pipeline would not make sense at this point.

Now if Americans could build a pipeline to carry all that water in Buffalo or Washington state to water parched California, thats a project worth doing!
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 260
view profile
History
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 11/26/2014 7:50:13 AM

Now if Americans could build a pipeline to carry all that water in Buffalo or Washington state to water parched California, thats a project worth doing!
If they allow the pipeline to crisscross our country and poison all the water, that might have to become a reality!

The "Mr. Wall Street" types (currently in office ) who are making in office as described in Message 263 could care less since they will always have the money to get all the clean water they will ever need. To Hell with the people who have to live next to the pipeline and the pollution.
 bluemoon24_7
Joined: 4/18/2014
Msg: 261
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 11/26/2014 7:57:53 AM
I read that there were in excess of 2.6 millions miles of pipelines currently in the U.S. for gas/oil etc. Why all the to-do over one more?

And again, what about dirty coal?

Edit to add: vvv

Did I say anything about not finding a better or cleaner way?? Nope. I think it would be wonderful if they did.

And dirty coal....because some keep talking about Alberta's "dirty oil" like it's the Ebola of world oil. Somehow this oil is terrible but what they pump and spill in the Gulf is somehow okay. My opinion.

 HFX_RGB
Joined: 7/26/2014
Msg: 262
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 11/26/2014 8:02:32 AM

I read that there were in excess of 2.6 millions miles of pipelines currently in the U.S. for gas/oil etc. Why all the to-do over one more?


Probably because it is time to stop living in the past and start putting that money towards things that make the future better and not worse.




And again, what about dirty coal?


What about it?

How does it factor into the conversation?
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 263
view profile
History
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 11/26/2014 8:50:02 AM

And dirty coal....because some keep talking about Alberta's "dirty oil" like it's the Ebola of world oil. Somehow this oil is terrible but what they pump and spill in the Gulf is somehow okay. My opinion.
There are those of us who don't like coal any more than we want the tar sands and there is no way we are okay with the oil they spill in the Gulf or anywhere else. It makes me sick.

Again, most of it wouldn't be necessary if people (the US especially) wouldn't be such horrible energy hogs.

I made the plans for and helped build a home in Germany in 1980 that already had all the plumbing built into it so that the home could easily be converted to solar energy. The people who bought it from us have since (finally) installed the solar panels on the roof (as was planned) and were totally thrilled that it was all ready to go.
 calguy14
Joined: 8/17/2014
Msg: 264
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 11/26/2014 9:33:32 AM
@useranonymous
The price of oil could skyrocket overnight.The Saudis kept the price of oil down for years to discourage exploring energy alternatives.

The real water surplus is in Canada and you know it.If keystone was about bringing water to California Obama would have been eager for plenty of pipe.
 HFX_RGB
Joined: 7/26/2014
Msg: 265
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 11/26/2014 1:46:41 PM

The real water surplus is in Canada and you know it.If keystone was about bringing water to California Obama would have been eager for plenty of pipe.


Which shows his makes smart decisions for the people of the USA.
 _babblefish
Joined: 9/23/2011
Msg: 266
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 11/26/2014 2:03:08 PM

Electric trains,do you mean light rapid transit?Those have electrified rails,the old streetcars had overhead lines.Freight locomotives are diesel electric,basically a huge generator.



The real water surplus is in Canada and you know it.If keystone was about bringing water to California Obama would have been eager for plenty of pipe.


I have no idea what pipeline you're smoking from; old streetcars? actually we have real modernz trolley busses
( with overhead lines) in Vancouver, as well, they exist in a smattering of other cities across North America, as for the water surplus, the US has more renewable fresh water than Canada
 calguy14
Joined: 8/17/2014
Msg: 267
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 11/26/2014 4:18:27 PM
^^^^
Yeah,Toronto had streetcars I think going back to the 1890's and the TTC began in 1921,overhead lines,they had electric buses as well,ugly overhead lines.Toronto put their telephone lines underground years back as well.As far as I know only the main line streetcars still have overhead lines.

BC has a lot of water spilling into the ocean.Do you want to drain the Great Lakes?People with expensive real estate would be upset.
 gtomustang
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 268
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 11/26/2014 7:28:16 PM
OPEC is meeting either next month or in January, to discuss cutting back on exports. Those who like to crunch numbers are predicting prices dropping from $75 per barrel down to $50 if no agreement is made. Fracking makes sense at around $80 per barrel. Ironically, that may the straw that breaks the Keystone's back...for a while.

A water pipeline to the farms in California's desert might expose an interesting problem...there's a decrease in Mexican immigrants into America (some even went home as the economy tanked), the number one in numbers is actually Asian immigrants. Could there be plenty of water in the near future but a shortage of labor?

I'll say "no", b/c a water pipeline isn't nearly as cheap to the Koch brothers as a few politicians meeting in Las Vegas to get their marching orders. Too bad, California could use some fresh water, rather than recycling their "grey" water every 5 years. Keep them toilets flushing!
 Walts
Joined: 5/7/2005
Msg: 269
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 11/27/2014 5:01:35 AM
Bringing up the water topic does expose a couple of things about us humans and our "intelligence". We once thought we were pretty bright when we figured out ways to grow foods in spots that didn't really grow "naturally". After how many years, we all of a sudden figure out there the flow from down below, aquifers, are not a never ending supply? Who would have figured? Not us, until it was gone, it seems.

So, the solution seems to be, let's go find some more, from somewhere else, and transport to where it never really was in the first place? How many times do you think this kind of process can go on for? Insert, whatever natural resource you want, in place of water.
 gtomustang
Joined: 6/16/2007
Msg: 270
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 11/28/2014 7:33:45 AM
Rome fought for salt, b/c it preserved meat. London fought for coal stations around the world. Whale oil got replaced by petroleum. And yep, in the future we'll fight for the one thing we can't replace synthetically--water. Not just b/c its part of what we frack into the ground. Israel and the Palestinians have always fought over water running thru their land and who gets it for the crops. The Pentagon a few years back began drawing plans for what areas of the world would fight over water rights.

Instead of being smart about water, we let money do our thinking for us. If you had the money, you could buy the rights. Even here in my New England, there are plenty of old mill areas with waterfall potential for small hydroelectric plants, or just a desire to take them out for fishing, yet the mill companies sold off the rights centuries ago, and they got resold and sold some more.

Meanwhile, OPEC has decided to keep the spigots open. Louisiana will lose millions in expected taxes due to the expectation that oil prices would be high, DeutscheBank predicts 40% of America's fracked wells won't be profitable...and Iran needs oil to be $130 per barrel to get its economy back on track, so they may be blowing up Kerry's phone to try again to get sanctions lifted.
 woobytoodsday
Joined: 12/13/2006
Msg: 271
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 11/28/2014 12:21:17 PM
I first became aware of *serious* water issues in this country when the price of shrimp sky rocketed (late sixties): until that point, most of the shrimp in stores was from Gulf of California, and so much water was being syphoned from the Colorado that the Gulf of California had become too salty for the shrimp to breed well.

Twenty odd years ago on a stay in Berkeley, got into a "fuss" with a friend who lived there about California stealing water from Nevada, Arizona, Utah, New Mexico, Colorado and Wyoming. It was cool, he said, because California was a better place to live than *those* places and by extension, Californians are better people. I said I thought that if you lived in a desert, it would behoove you not to act like you lived in a rainforest. At least go *that* far along the path to sanity. Which likely wont happen.

I think it would be well if we started to fund serious attempts at massive desalinization. Otherwise, that way, Dune. California kinda *does* look like a worm. . . .

 overunity
Joined: 8/16/2014
Msg: 272
view profile
History
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 11/28/2014 12:39:35 PM
Back on topic, it looks like the gas price plummet will temporarily put this on hold, for now. And for the people here that detest petroleum in anyway shape or form, and forgetting for now how almost everything that is made of plastics in our lives is derived from it, do you drive or use any kind of machine that uses an internal combustion power source? Perhaps some don't realize that all our miles of asphalt (paved) roads are made with small rocks and tar refined from it and mixed together. I for one have no wish to go back to the horse and buggy days on dirt roads.
 _babblefish
Joined: 9/23/2011
Msg: 273
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 11/28/2014 2:04:08 PM

Back on topic, it looks like the gas price plummet will temporarily put this on hold, for now. And for the people here that detest petroleum in anyway shape or form, and forgetting for now how almost everything that is made of plastics in our lives is derived from it, do you drive or use any kind of machine that uses an internal combustion power source? Perhaps some don't realize that all our miles of asphalt (paved) roads are made with small rocks and tar refined from it and mixed together. I for one have no wish to go back to the horse and buggy days on dirt roads.


hard to forget something that you detest, eh? hardly. . in BC it's hydro electric power and natural gas for what makes
my world go, 'cepting my gas powered lawn mower, I don't own a vehicle, refuse to buy anything packaged in plastic, groceries go in re-usable bags and as for the miles of asphalt road - over 90% + percentage of road material is a mixture of aggregate products not the bitumen . .
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 274
view profile
History
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 12/4/2014 10:48:40 AM
Message 281 ...
Back on topic ...
Why is the fear of polluting our water with oil leaks not ON topic here?

Perhaps it's not related in your mind, but those of us who feel our earth will need all the fresh water we can get are very much aware that the two are quite closely related and even though you like to make us appear dumb, we're not. We all know that oil and water do not mix and that's what our concern is ... oil polluting our water and our air and our growing fields.


... and forgetting for now how almost everything that is made of plastics in our lives is derived from it ...
No need to make it look like those of us opposed to harvesting oil don't know that it is used for making plastic. Again, we're not as dumb as you're trying to make us out to be. Nice try though,

Because we will never be able to wean ourselves away from plastic (most especially in the medical field), is all the more reason to leave some of the oil right where it is ... for future generations. Naturally they will also no doubt want plastic to build the vehicles of the future that hopefully won't require oil-based fuel.

Why do you think you know so much more about these things than any other lay person?
 Olwhatzhisname
Joined: 11/18/2014
Msg: 275
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History
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 12/12/2014 1:50:47 PM
True.

I am originally from & still have rental property in West Virginia . My property lies within part of the most gas-rich area of the Marcellus Shale Deposits, & is being fracked as we speak. There are no less than 4 gas wells in the immediate 5-square mile area surrounding my property. Each well head is part of a land tract that consists of somewhere between 500-1000 sq. acres. Nearly every acre in the county is being fracked, those acres not yet fracked are under contract & will start soon.

I have well water on the property, along with all the other homes in that area. Before any fracking takes place, the gas company contracts an independent company which performs a $500 comprehensive well water test that consists of about 15 or so pages of virtualy every possible chemical, element, & carcinogen that is present in my well.

Here is a short list of what is & had been naturally occuring in the regional ground water BEFORE any fracking took place:

Diclorothane,
dibromoflouromethane,
toluene
bromoflourobenzene,
acetylene,
strontium,
barium,
arsenic,
manganese,
ethylbenzene,
ethane,
bromide,
sulfur,
lead,
magnesium,
cadmium,
mercury,
radon
glycol

^^ALL of these compounds are in the ground water.....even traces of oil......as tested BEFORE any fracking took place. Typical Appalachian ground water that humans & animals have been drinking and fish have been swimming in for thousands, millions of years.

But others think that mining coal & pumping oil in the region were/are responsible for the multitude of those "poisonous chemicals" that are present in the regional water. That is furthest from the truth because......

ALL OF THOSE CHEMICAL COMPOUNDS IN MY WATER SHOWN ARE ALSO NATURALLY OCCURING IN COAL.Untouched natural coal seams blanket the entire region.

Pennsylvania(Appalachan) crude oil is also naturally occuring & abundant in underground pockets & layers. Both coal & oil are as close as only a few hundred feet underground, which is where our ground water supply springs from. These naturally-occuring chemical compounds found in naturally occuring & yet-untouched regional underground coal & oil deposits leach into the ground water supply, much the same as it has leached for hundreds, thousands, millions of years. They have nothing to do with present-day fracking, coal mining, gas wells, or oil wells. They are all NATRUALLY within safe limits set by the EPA.

Our underground water aquifers flow thru vast untouched underground coal seams. Everything evil that people associate with coal is part of the very ground water that us West Virginians & neighboring Pennsylvanian/Appalachian regional humans & animals have been drinking, fish have been swimming in, & trees have been absorbing for thousands, millions of years.

But some scream woe is me! Emergency!! WE caused it!!
 HFX_RGB
Joined: 7/26/2014
Msg: 276
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 12/12/2014 2:16:33 PM

Before any fracking takes place, the gas company contracts an independent company which performs a $500 comprehensive well water test that consists of about 15 or so pages of virtualy every possible chemical, element, & carcinogen that is present in my well.


Do they do a follow-up test?

Do they tell you what chemicals they will be using?

Do they tell you how much of those chemicals where there able to recover post fracking?

Do they tell you what they do with the waste water?
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