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Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed      Home login  
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 John255317
Joined: 12/28/2012
Msg: 101
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline DelayedPage 5 of 21    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21)
More crude oil was spilled in train derailments in 2013 then in the previous 40 years COMBINED! This is just the US and obviously doesn't include the huge derailment that killed 47 people in Quebec. Looks like a decision should be made in May.
 Eric_Summit
Joined: 11/3/2009
Msg: 102
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 3/17/2014 1:55:07 PM
Posted by Imported_Labor:
"Since you love pipelines also, why don't you go and join them.
The more company they have, the warmer they all feel."

What does this mean? I do not reside in Alaska. I am a New Jersey resident.
There are plenty of very safe and very reliable pipelines here in my state.
 Eric_Summit
Joined: 11/3/2009
Msg: 103
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 3/17/2014 3:04:09 PM

Posted by wolvesatthedoor:
"how do all the people with natural gas lines to their homes for heating and hot water feel about their underground supply lines?"

I am totally comfortable with underground supply lines.
These pipelines near me have been as reliable-as-sunrise for many decades and without service interruption.
Prices are fair and I am mindful to use gas and electricity carefully.
 GreenThumbz18
Joined: 4/25/2012
Msg: 104
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 3/17/2014 3:06:28 PM
^^^^^^
Great question, Wolves.
I guess all those pipes should be removed and banned. It's the only smart thing to do.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 105
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 3/17/2014 3:31:54 PM

I guess all those pipes should be removed and banned.

Well, the next time someone has to wash down water fowl with Dove® because of an NG spill I'm sure that will become a question with some validity... Until then, it is just a stupid troll question that has no real bearing on the matter... But you knew that, right...?
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 106
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 3/17/2014 4:44:06 PM

The question was pipelines and their safety.

No... That is yet another troll response... The question is the Keystone XL pipeline... NOT every little "line of pipes" imaginable (otherwise we would also be talking about steam and hot/cold water pipelines as well)... Go back and read the OP... It will help

BTW, do you know what the ingredients are in your "soap"?


Is that supposed to be a 'gotcha question' or just another silly troll question...? Do you even know whether I use "soap", much less what kind or "brand" it might be...?
 John255317
Joined: 12/28/2012
Msg: 107
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 3/17/2014 4:52:32 PM
Yes, there are underground gas lines all over the United States, not sure why that poster couldn't understand the post. Also, I sure wish they would have told those train people to slow down in the last 40 years. From that posters view, sounds like he is saying they haven't adhered to rules and so they just kept going "fast" and all of a sudden it caught up to them. I get it that there are a few that don't want the pipeline and that is your opinion.

Like Eric said, there are underground pipelines already in the ground in the US.

"The network of crude oil pipelines in the U.S. is extensive. There are approximately 55,000 miles of crude oil trunk lines (usually 8 - 24 inches in diameter) in the U.S. that connect regional markets.
The U.S. also has an estimated 30,000 to 40,000 miles of small gathering lines (usually 2 to 6 inches in diameter) located primarily in Texas, Oklahoma, Louisiana, and Wyoming with small systems in a number of other oil producing states. These small lines gather the oil from many wells, both onshore and offshore, and connect to larger trunk lines measuring from 8 to 24 inches in diameter."

Safety measures need to be done with any project, no matter if it is a pipeline or other................
 Walts
Joined: 5/7/2005
Msg: 108
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 3/17/2014 5:01:04 PM

On topic, how do all the people with natural gas lines to their homes for heating and hot water feel about their underground supply lines?


Do you understand the difference between natural gas and crude? Do you understand what happens when a natural gas line breaks/leaks, and what crude does when it breaks/ leaks? I'm talking without igniting here(as in New York city) Natural gas, goes into the air and disappears. I don't believe crude does. Why don't we heat our houses much anymore with the old oil furnaces? Ever try to "remove" an old oil tank out of your backyard, and pay for it? The environmental concerns and costs to eliminate that old tank would probably mind boggle a few of ya. There is a reason for that. And it ain't healthy.

We had a "break" here in Burnaby BC a few years ago. Magically, and quietly the money was paid to quiet those that were making noise of the "incident" and the cleanup afterwards. Not very soon after, some new pipelines thru the same areas have been proposed. Oil business at it's finest?

Some of the problems with the pipelines is that they are run by the companies themselves. The bottem line is the biggie. And like some here, that is just plain good old business. If the companies themselves would stand up and take credit for their disgusting business "practises" and actually aim to "fix" the problems, (without US having to MAKE them) we may look at these pipelines a little differently.

The lie. They cheat. Bend rules. Feed us BS. And do it at an amazing speed. But, they do "make money".
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 109
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 3/17/2014 5:02:40 PM
Yes, there are underground gas lines all over the United States...

Like Eric said, there are underground pipelines already in the ground in the US.

"The network of crude oil pipelines in the U.S. is extensive...


Ah, I see... so the answer is "We already do it"... followed by "So, what's one more?"...

Hmmm... If passenger pigeons and Carolina parakeets could talk I wonder what the last ones would have said to being told "So, what's wrong with one more?"...
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 110
view profile
History
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 3/17/2014 6:05:30 PM
Oh dear ... ^^^ ... I'm not sure too much of anything (or any point) we write really sinks in ... just sayin" ...

They're so focused on their one and two-liner troll posts that they really don't want to know what we write or what point we're trying to make. It's also possible they can only comprehend one or two lines at a time?

Anyhoo ... here's a couple of one-liners:

OT ...
We need to put all that money into the development of cleaner and more earth-friendly alternative energy.

If we keep polluting the air ... water ... land with all that poison, what's going to be left for our children and grandchildren and their grandchildren?

Okay ... five .... four .... three .... two .... one ...................................
 John255317
Joined: 12/28/2012
Msg: 111
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 3/17/2014 6:17:41 PM
"I would have to be a big moron to say"

Then you say "according to me".......Look it up, it is a fact, it isn't "according to me". Not hard to find if you "really" want to find it.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 112
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 3/17/2014 8:05:05 PM
It is a pretty straightforward cause and effect, actually. More oil is being hauled by train than ever before, so there are more train accidents involving oil than ever before. Here is a good article on the issue:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-01-09/crude-derailment-risk-rises-as-trains-haul-more-oil.html

Edit:
Some of the more interesting tidbits from the article:

Even if TransCanada Corp. (TRP)’s Keystone XL pipeline is completed, hundreds of thousands of barrels will need to travel on rail lines to get to refineries and ports. The U.S. is on target to be the world’s largest oil producer by 2015.


Railroad trade groups have defended rail transport as safe, saying well over 99 percent of all oil shipments are delivered without incident. Malcolm Cairns, a transportation consultant in Brighton, Ontario, and a former director of business research at Canadian Pacific Railway Ltd. (CP), said both railroads and pipelines “are safe means” and that any disputes about the relative difference is “trivial.”
 GreenThumbz18
Joined: 4/25/2012
Msg: 113
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 3/18/2014 12:15:35 AM
"More oil is being hauled by train than ever before, so there are more train accidents involving oil than ever before. '
Not so complicated after all, is it?
 Eric_Summit
Joined: 11/3/2009
Msg: 114
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 3/18/2014 4:47:18 AM
A well-engineered and well-built pipeline is the most practical way to transport fuel from Point A to Point B.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 115
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History
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 3/18/2014 4:58:21 AM
This:


Even if TransCanada Corp. (TRP)’s Keystone XL pipeline is completed, hundreds of thousands of barrels will need to travel on rail lines to get to refineries and ports. The U.S. is on target to be the world’s largest oil producer by 2015.


rather makes THIS:


A well-engineered and well-built pipeline is the most practical way to transport fuel from Point A to Point B.


functionally meaningless.

According to that article, no matter what, there will be oil spills galore everywhere the oil goes.

Question:

Do the rail transports of this stuff go through the exact same area as the pipeline is supposed to go? If yes, then they might as well build the pipeline. If no, then there's another good reason not to build it. It comes down to where we most prefer to have a mess, either IN the main aquifer, or somewhere where it wont screw up the entire water supply.

None of the rest of the arguments matter, because none of them have anything to do with the whole point of the argument itself: danger to the aquifer. Relative cost of transport isn't pertinent. Ease of transport isn't pertinent. Who profits most from transport isn't pertinent.

At least, not until the real cost of the inevitable accidents are figured in, which so far none of those other arguments have included.
 Eric_Summit
Joined: 11/3/2009
Msg: 116
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 3/18/2014 6:36:06 AM
IgorFrankensteen...one can liken the transport to a cross-country flight.
One can take a non-stop jetliner or fly a little propeller plane that has to land/takeoff a dozen times during the journey.
The danger isn't so much during the travel...it is in the stops, starts, takeoffs, landings, hand-offs, and transitions.
Practical steps that we as consumers can take to minimize the "exposure time" is a good thing.
 etourdi65
Joined: 1/23/2014
Msg: 117
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 3/18/2014 6:59:00 AM
ok so if they build the keystone pipeline the pipeline will be brand new? If it is then the chance of any type of major leak would be minimal as the main cause for leaks is old pipes...if we continue to use the rail system the chances of accidents go up as the volume of oil is increased ..so it seems that at least in the near future the best option would to be to go to the brand new pipeline system if safety is the primary concern.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 118
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History
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 3/18/2014 8:57:14 AM
http://fuelfix.com/blog/2012/01/06/whistleblower-says-president-should-say-no-to-keystone/

Pipeline inspector says President should say no to Keystone XL pipeline

Excerpt
A former pipeline inspector said the government should not approve the controversial Keystone XL pipeline because of shoddy work by the company has plagued TransCanada’s first Keystone pipeline.

Mike Klink of Auburn, Ind.., who worked as an inspector for the first Keystone pipeline, said TransCanada consistently cut corners during the construction process that has lead to more than a dozen leaks along the pipeline. He said the company picked saving money over safety when given the choice.
That should be enough to put this thing on permanent hold.
 Neopoli
Joined: 3/1/2011
Msg: 119
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 3/18/2014 9:34:20 AM

Do the rail transports of this stuff go through the exact same area as the pipeline is supposed to go? If yes, then they might as well build the pipeline.


^^^This makes no sense...

No, the rail transports do NOT go thru the same areas as the pipeline - rail transports go thru towns, cities, major population centers, over bridges that span waterways, & along major highways, to name a few.


If no, then there's another good reason not to build it. It comes down to where we most prefer to have a mess, either IN the main aquifer, or somewhere where it wont screw up the entire water supply.


Nobody prefers to have this mess happen in the middle of their city, or any other major population center...but that is exactly what happens when a train hauling 100 cars of crude oil derails, which, chances are, will derail in the vicinity of towns, cities, over bridges that span waterways, & along major highways, to name a few.

There has been a crude oil rail accident & ensuing major spill every month for the past 3 months- December, January, & February. March isnt over yet....I expect one any day now with this track record.

Again, google the crude oil rail disaster in Lac-Mégantic, Quebec that killed 47 people & spilled 1.5 million gallons of crude from 72 tanker cars that flooded the streets with rivers of flaming crude, then spilled - still flaming - into the sewer system, causing massive explosions which destroyed much of the town, then from there spilled - still flaming -into the local waterways, setting them on fire also & poisoning the water supply.

After draining into the storm sewers, almost half of that oil ended up in the tributary that feeds into Lake Mégantic. This is exactly what you condemn the piplines of causing, but you give blessing to what seems like your preferred method of rail transport, which now regularly causes this exact same(or worse) scenario??

This is the poster child of what is possible EVERY DAY in many major cities. Just a matter of time before it happens again.




 etourdi65
Joined: 1/23/2014
Msg: 120
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 3/18/2014 9:48:02 AM
A disgruntled employee makes some allegations and now the whole thing should be delayed? According to the Huffpo article the leaks that did occur were corrected and are not unusual in the start up process ..

1.5 million gallons of oil were spilled due to train derailments...in 2013..in the U.S...how many gallons were spilled by the pipeline according to Mr klink?
 Eric_Summit
Joined: 11/3/2009
Msg: 121
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 3/18/2014 10:02:50 AM
Hopefully this inspector (Mr. Michael Klink of Auburn, Indiana) has made a full and detailed report of his findings.
If true, it would not be difficult to isolate the areas of the pipeline he feels are inadequate or unsafe.

The reality is that oil companies do not want to spill oil or have to incur the expense of clean-up efforts.
They would much rather their customers obtain their products, without incident, and with greatest ease possible.
 GreenThumbz18
Joined: 4/25/2012
Msg: 122
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 3/18/2014 12:11:15 PM
"Mike Klink of Auburn, Ind.., who worked as an inspector for the first Keystone pipeline, said TransCanada consistently cut corners during the construction process that has lead to more than a dozen leaks along the pipeline. He said the company picked saving money over safety when given the choice."

Does the above statement make any sense to anybody? This company builds a pipeline to carry oil a thousand miles, and if they include 15 leaks, how much oil actually makes it to the other end? Doesn't sound very smart to me.
Is Mr. Klink a direct descendant of Colonel Klink, the famous WWII prison camp commandant? That might explain a lot.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 123
view profile
History
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 3/18/2014 12:24:51 PM

A disgruntled employee makes some allegations and now the whole thing should be delayed?
That's not the only article that address the risks ... but if someone is not interested in researching the risks, they probably will not be inclined to keep digging deeper. I understand ... it's easier to take a partisan approach and just pooh-pooh anything that might sound like "saving the environment" ... since we all know that the "GOP/teabagger" book of worship does not believe that we need to be concerned about that.

Thankfully, some of "tree hugger" types just won't give up ...

http://stateimpact.npr.org/texas/2012/10/19/the-keystone-shutdown-talking-tar-sands-pipelines-with-lara-skinner/
Excerpt
We reached out to Dr. Lara Skinner, Associate Director of Research at Cornell University’s Global Labor Institute, to get her perspective on the current shutdown and some of the safety issues particular to pipelines transporting “diluted bitumen.” That’s heavy, sour oil harvested from the sand pits of Canada and mixed with hydrocarbons so it can flow through a pipeline. Many of the issues with the existing pipeline are relevant to the impending Keystone XL pipeline. Skinner has co-authored two studies on the economic and environmental impact of the new pipeline and is openly critical of the risks that it may pose.

QCan you describe for us what’s happening with the existing Keystone pipeline right now?

A: You know, my expertise is really in the Keystone XL pipeline. But in the process of trying to figure out some of the implications of that pipeline, we looked at phase one of the pipeline, Keystone. Specifically looking at what was the potential from spills.

And we looked at the proposals TransCanada was putting in about the projected spill rate of the Keystone XL pipeline. So we looked back and said, ‘Okay, what did they project for the first one and what actually happened?’

(Lara Skinner says both the old and new sections of the Keystone pipeline pose a safety risk.

And once they started operating [the original Keystone pipeline] in October 2010, there’s been 35 spills. They said that there would be about five spills over a fifty year span. And that they would be minor spills.

In short, their estimates for the number of spills on phase one of the pipeline were way underestimated. About a hundred times under what has actually been happening with these spills.

Yes, a lot of the spills have been minor, they’re not major spills like what happened at the Kalamazoo river in June 2010, but you have to keep in mind that these pipelines are carrying tar sands — diluted bitumen — which pose additional dangers to the public. And they present really special challenges in trying to clean them up.

Q: So with the situation right now with the existing Keystone pipeline, how significant is that? Is it unusual for something like this to happen?

A: Compared to what’s happened in the past, it is a pretty significant shutdown. The phase one Keystone pipeline has been shut down numerous times because of the number of spills that it’s had.

Tar sands pipelines in general have been having a lot more accidents and leaks than regular pipelines. Between 2007 and 2010, pipelines transporting tar sands oil in the Midwest region have spilled three times more oil per mile than the U.S. national average.

Q: Are there specific regulations for pipelines carrying this kind of oildiluted bitumen?

A: One of the things that came out of our report looking at the economic impact of Keystone XL and potential spills is that there was no independent, comprehensive risk assessment done for Keystone XL. It wasn’t required in the process, so the State Department didn’t do it. And I believe it’s the same for phase one as well.

So with the potential risk that comes along with tar sands spills, it’s very disconcerting for the communities that live along the pipeline that there wasn’t a comprehensive spill risk assessment done before these pipelines are constructed.

Another interesting piece of information that was in a State Department report is that the Keystone XL pipeline would be crossing more than 1,700 rivers, lakes and streams. And that includes big rivers like the Missouri, the Yellowstone and of course, two major aquifers.

After our interview concluded, Skinner emailed some additional information on the steel being used in the existing Keystone pipeline and for construction of the southern leg of the XL pipeline. “In our research, we discovered that a significant portion of the steel [for Keystone XL] would not be produced in the U.S., it would be manufactured in India, China and elsewhere,” she writes. “This connects to what’s happening with the Keystone shutdown now because the vast majority of pipe for Phase 1 was produced outside of the U.S. by the same company that TransCanada is contracting with for steel pipe for Keystone XL – Welspun.”

Spinner says that Welspun uses “substandard steel.” In December 2010, the federal Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration (PHMSA) ordered TransCanada to dig up ten sections of the Keystone pipeline after tests showed that defective steel could have been used in its construction. The agency found that from 2007 to 2009, there were several pipelines built containing “significant amounts of defective pipe that stretched under pressure,” according to a report in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. “Investigators traced the problems to defective steel produced by several mills, but mostly by Welspun Power and Steel, a manufacturer based in India,” the paper wrote.

This is not the first time the existing portion of the Keystone pipeline — also known as “Phase One” — has been shut down. In June 2011, after several leaks along the pipeline in North Dakota, federal regulators issued an order for the pipeline to shut down, saying that if it kept running without fixes being made, the pipeline ”would be hazardous to life, property and the environment.”

And a civil inspector and a TransCanada engineer have separately come forward alleging that TransCanada isn’t following proper protocols in construction and maintenance of their pipelines. The Canadian federal energy regulator has now initiated an audit of TransCanada’s procedures for inspection and engineering, according to the CBC.

In a response to the CBC stories, TransCanada CEO Russ Girling writes on the company’s website that the existing Keystone pipeline ”has experienced zero pipeline-related spill incidents since it began operation in 2010. The few leaks that have occurred on Keystone have all occurred at our pump station properties and were related to leakage from small-diameter fittings and seals located above ground. All of these leaks were small in volume and were quickly cleaned up with no environmental impact.”
Well of course TransCanada is going to want to write something positive about itself.

I can't understand how such so-called "patriots" would want this ... and to add to things ... you'd think they'd want the steel to come from America ... that creates jobs ... right?


Five .... four .... three .... two .... one ...................................
 Eric_Summit
Joined: 11/3/2009
Msg: 124
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 3/18/2014 12:26:31 PM
^^^

GreenThumbz18...that reference between Mr. Klink and his likely relationship to Colonel Klink is hilarious!
Both Mr. Klink and the fictional character should identify problems in real-time rather than brushing under the rug.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 125
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 3/18/2014 12:28:06 PM
Yeah, Klink is an unfortunate name for an inspector...

But it makes sense. I really don't think he claimed that all the leaks occurred at once (unlikely), for one. Business decisions are a constant struggle involving varying degrees of cost, risk, and potential reward. One could very well ask if using single hull tankers was a sensible shortcut for Exxon to make. History is full of gambles that did not pay off as well as hoped...
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