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Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed      Home login  
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 Neopoli
Joined: 3/1/2011
Msg: 126
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline DelayedPage 6 of 21    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21)
Do you mean this Burnaby B.C railroad car spill 8 weeks ago?


Coal train derails near Burnaby, B.C., spills into creek
THE BELLINGHAM HERALDJanuary 13, 2014


Canadian officials say it will take some time to assess the damage after a coal train derailed in Burnaby, B.C. on Saturday, Jan. 13, spilling coal into a creek that feeds a nearby lake.

Seven cars on a Canadian Pacific Railway train derailed Saturday, three of which toppled over and spilled coal into Silver Creek, which runs alongside the railway. The creek is designated as protected habitat by Fisheries and Oceans Canada.

Emily Hamer, a spokeswoman for CN, told The Province newspaper on Sunday that recent heavy rains washed out a nearby beaver dam, releasing enough water to compromise the tracks.

The metallurgical coal, used in steelmaking, was destined for Neptune Bulk Terminals in North Vancouver and was from mines in B.C.'s Kootenay region, said CP Rail spokesman Ed Greenberg.

Federal Transport Minister Lisa Raitt assured Canadians Sunday that rail transport of hazardous materials is safe, despite recent instances of derailments and new safety regulations.

"The transportation system is safe," Raitt told Global's The West Block. "We have transported dangerous goods across this country for the last 100 years. But the reality is that the type of dangerous good can change and we want to ensure we're doing everything we can to ensure there's safe travel."

An environmental group, Voters Taking Action on Climate Change, issued a release Sunday critical of CN, The Province reported.

"Given that heavy rain was widely forecast for this weekend, this calls into question how closely CN is monitoring the safety status of rail lines used by heavy and long coal trains," the group said.

http://www.bellinghamherald.com/2014/01/13/3418364/coal-train-derails-near-burnaby.html

 Walts
Joined: 5/7/2005
Msg: 127
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 3/18/2014 5:45:49 PM
^^^^^ Try 2007.The pipeline was actually broken by a construction company, and despite laws and regs, the rep for Kinder Morgan wasn't onsite, though they knew the excavator was right beside their pipeline. Coal does not equal crude, just for your info.

One thing many of you should think about, is that a "lot" leaks from pipelines are never reported, unless they are "found" by the public. There was leak in Alberta, last year I believe, that wasn't reported in ANY Alberta media, though it was known everywhere else in the country.You can't "hide" train wrecks. Again, just business.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 128
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History
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 3/18/2014 5:54:16 PM

IgorFrankensteen...one can liken the transport to a cross-country flight.
One can take a non-stop jetliner or fly a little propeller plane that has to land/takeoff a dozen times during the journey.
The danger isn't so much during the travel...it is in the stops, starts, takeoffs, landings, hand-offs, and transitions.
Practical steps that we as consumers can take to minimize the "exposure time" is a good thing.


Excuse me, but no one is proposing to FLY the crude anywhere.

My point and my question is straightforward: EVERYONE agrees that accidents happen no matter what.

The protest against the pipeline that I am aware of, because I have relatives in the area who are among the opposition, is over the safety of the primary aquifer that supplies the water to the US breadbasket of the midwest. That is what has to be protected.

The proposed pipeline is supposed to go through the middle of it.

Everyone, as I said, have agreed (and the evidence supports it) that no matter what, accidents and leaks will happen. It isn't JUST "old pipes" which have failed in the past. Failures in pipelines have been known to happen at every joint, and every pumping station. Therefore suggesting that pipe transport involves no stops and starts is false.

So my question was, is rail transport going through the aquifer or not? If it is, then opposing the pipeline and permitting the rail transport makes little sense.

I am TRYING to apply logic, as opposed to accusations and as opposed to propaganda, and as opposed to politicization, to this situation. I am a "what is the ACTUAL problem, okay, now lets design a solution for the PROBLEM, and stop bickering over which political group gets credit for which propaganda coup" kind of person.

Too many people pushing FOR the pipeline, are trying to make it into a question of everything from American Energy Independence (which has NOTHING to do with it, since it is CANADIAN oil); or are trying to turn it into an argument about Free Market Capitalism versus tree-huggers, which also has NOTHING to do with the primary situation; or are trying to pretend that it's all about creating more American jobs (which has been shown to be wildly exaggerated).

None of them are responding to the concern of the people through whose lives the pipe is supposed to run: the safety of the aquifer, on which their agricultural and personal lives depend. They don't care who profits or who doesn't. If the pipeline or the rail transport results in poisoning the aquifer, the game is over for them.

So far, all I am seeing, is anxious Corporate types, trying to make the largest profits, and trying to shape the debate to cover up the fact that that's all they care about.

I suggest that we try to SOLVE THE PROBLEMS instead of any of that crapola.
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 129
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 3/18/2014 5:54:43 PM

Newly unveiled federal data indicates that more crude oil was spilled in US railway incidents in 2013 than in the prior 37 years combined, inspiring lawmakers to push for new safety standards that could avoid similarly devastating incidents in the future.

Altogether, 800,000 gallons spilled from US railroads in the years from 1975 to 2010. That data, which comes from the Pipeline and Hazardous Material Safety Administration, does not include records of Canadian spills, some of which are thought to surpass one million gallons spilled on their own.

In part because of major derailments in Alabama and North Dakota, over 1.15 million gallons of crude oil seeped from train cars.

http://rt.com/usa/railroad-spills-surpass-37-years-054/
 Walts
Joined: 5/7/2005
Msg: 130
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 3/18/2014 6:07:59 PM
^^^^ No mention in the major increase in actual oil quanity being transported by trains in the year 2013 as compared to those past 37 years?

Interesting.

Or, should that be," why mention that stat"?
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 131
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 3/18/2014 6:18:02 PM
No mention in the major increase in actual oil quanity being transported by trains in the year 2013 as compared to those past 37 years?

Interesting.

Or, should that be," why mention that stat"?


Well, please do tell us how much oil transportation by rail increased in 2013 alone over the past 40 years. Common sense tells us that it was a gradual increase over 37 years, but your post seems to indicate that you've some knowledge of a vast increase in rail transportation during 2013 alone...if so, please cite the stats you have to repudiate a gradual increase in transportation of oil by rail. What amount of oil by rail spilled in 2012???


The study backs up research from the American Association of Railroads, released last month, which found that rail transport spills 0.38 gallons of oil per million barrels moved, compared to 0.88 gallons for pipelines.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/05/14/pipeline-oil-spills-rail-spills_n_3273725.html
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 132
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 3/18/2014 6:31:39 PM

About 400,000 carloads of crude oil traveled by rail last year to the nation’s refineries, up from 9,500 in 2008, according to the Association of American Railroads.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/26/business/energy-environment/accidents-surge-as-oil-industry-takes-the-train.html

Definitely not a gradual increase going on here...

What is it you are trying to point out, Irish?
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 133
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 3/18/2014 6:33:35 PM
The study backs up research from the American Association of Railroads, released last month, which found that rail transport spills 0.38 gallons of oil per million barrels moved, compared to 0.88 gallons for pipelines.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/05/14/pipeline-oil-spills-rail-spills_n_3273725.html


In addition, oil by rail is required to report spills of more than 5 gallons...a far cry from spills by pipeline.


About 400,000 carloads of crude oil traveled by rail last year to the nation’s refineries, up from 9,500 in 2008, according to the Association of American Railroads.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/26/business/energy-environment/accidents-surge-as-oil-industry-takes-the-train.html



It is interesting that you point this out, because under the Obama administration oil production since 2008 has risen exponentially as well:


The Bakken oil formation, part of a larger geologic area called the Williston Basin, turned North Dakota into America’s second-largest crude producer after Texas. Output rose to 821,000 barrels a day in June, almost five times what it was in 2008, according to Energy Department data.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-09-18/railroads-look-past-u-s-oil-costs-that-help-pipelines-freight.html

In other words_ oil by rail transportation has risen equally along with oil production.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 134
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Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 3/18/2014 6:46:06 PM


Message 73 ... It’s inevitable ... Obama is just appeasing the base.

Message 74 ... No it is not inevitable. Obama will probably convert and build more pipelines for GAS.
I'm much more in tune with that ... anything that burns cleaner.


This dirty oil SHOULD and CAN stay in the ground. Don't believe the ads/propaganda. Tar sands are TOXIC!!! and so is every step to get it to china.
And that is still another good reason we shouldn't transport it in any way through our country ... America's breadbasket could be ruined forever.

Doesn't anyone in here eat anything that's grown in that area?

http://norml.org/legal/item/nebraska-top-10-cash-crops
Corn for Grain
Soybeans for Beans
Hay, All
Wheat, All
Beans, All Dry Edible
Potatoes, All
Sugarbeets
Oats

(I left out the Marijuana because I personally don't consider it an edible crop)

You can see the rest of the article at the link I furnished.

Does anyone really believe we need more problems for our farmers ... more job loss due to a spill, more pollution????

We certainly don't owe any other country so much that we have to sacrifice and jeopardize our land that way.
 Walts
Joined: 5/7/2005
Msg: 135
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 3/19/2014 6:13:16 AM

In other words_ oil by rail transportation has risen equally along with oil production.


Or equal to greed of those that are pumping out the crude.(they don't produce it)

My point Irish, was that any stat can be used, but, using comparisons showing more oil is being moved by rail, by default, there will be more oil "accidents" with rail. Throw in the need for the rail guys to make as much money as possible, in a short period of time, they will also take the "short cuts" to make that gain.

My biggest beef with this industry is of which the speed of this is going on, WITHOUT the infrastructure in place. It's like some of the municipalities around here, approving and building subdivisions but without the required infrastructure around. The municipalities get there tax base, but, they never catch up on building the required roads and other services that all these new residents will need.

The boys up north in Alberta are NOT slowing down in the tar fields. They are trying to increase production as fast as possible, but, whine they can't get it "out" of town fast enough? I know a guy, personally, who will sit in his truck, running for up to 18 hours, sitting, and waiting to unload is oil into the railcars in Edmonton. Of course, he gets "paid" to do this. Productivity says to me, that you should cut down on this "waiting" period by these trucks by eliminating the number of trucks on the road but, then the question becomes where do you put the crude after it comes out of the ground? The companies up there are like greedy little piglets at the trough. They can't get their fill fast enough.
 DameWrite
Joined: 2/27/2010
Msg: 136
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Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 4/20/2014 7:58:46 PM
Delayed again.

Sadly it's most likely because obama may want to use his pipelines for fracked u.s. gas to be shipped to europe to cover for the "emergency shortage" caused when he and harper put planned (2008) sanctions against russian gas. ( if ukraine didn't sign with the eu.)

http://www.globalresearch.ca/dangerous-crossroads-us-nato-build-up-to-cold-war-2-0/5378520
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 137
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Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 4/22/2014 9:37:43 AM

Sadly it's most likely because obama may want to use his pipelines for fracked u.s. gas to be shipped to europe to cover for the "emergency shortage" caused when he and harper put planned (2008) sanctions against russian gas. ( if ukraine didn't sign with the eu.)

I don't think he wants to get that involved in any of the problems over in Ukraine ... I don't think he's interested in pushing the fracking either.
 Neopoli
Joined: 3/1/2011
Msg: 138
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 4/30/2014 7:19:07 PM

Again, google the crude oil rail disaster in Lac-Mégantic, Quebec that killed 47 people & spilled 1.5 million gallons of crude from 72 tanker cars that flooded the streets with rivers of flaming crude, then spilled - still flaming - into the sewer system, causing massive explosions which destroyed much of the town, then from there spilled - still flaming -into the local waterways, setting them on fire also & poisoning the water supply.

After draining into the storm sewers, almost half of that oil ended up in the tributary that feeds into Lake Mégantic. This is exactly what you condemn the piplines of causing, but you give blessing to what seems like your preferred method of rail transport, which now regularly causes this exact same(or worse) scenario??

This is the poster child of what is possible EVERY DAY in many major cities. Just a matter of time before it happens again.

There has been a crude oil rail accident & ensuing major spill every month for the past 3 months- December, January, & February. March isnt over yet....I expect one any day now with this track record.


....and today is that day.


Tankers carrying oil derail, catch fire in Va.
Apr 30, 2014 8:05 PM (ET)

LYNCHBURG, Va. (AP) — Several CSX train cars carrying crude oil derailed and caught fire Wednesday along the James River, with three black tankers ending up in the water and leaking some of their contents, becoming the most recent crash involving oil trains that has safety experts pushing for better oversight.

Nearby buildings were evacuated for a time in downtown Lynchburg, but officials said there were no injuries and the city on its website and Twitter said firefighters decided to let the fire burn out. Three or four tankers were breached on the 15-car train that CSX said was on its way from Chicago to an unspecified destination. Most of the cars were knocked off the tracks.

Online photos and videos showed large flames and thick, black smoke right after the crash before the fire burned itself out. Still, officials were keeping people out of the area.

Nicole Gibs, 32, a server at the Depot Grille, just across the street, said she was waiting on a table when she heard a train that sounded louder than usual. She saw several train cars wobbling, and then one fell over, sparking a fire immediately. Several other cars also toppled "like Tyco trains," she said.


The manager yelled: "Evacuate!" and the restaurant immediately began emptying, with some people in wheelchairs being carried down steps as the fire raged, filling the air with black smoke. The people from the restaurant moved a block away, then two.

"You could feel the heat like you were standing by a campfire," Gibs said. "It was hot."

Concern about the safety of oil trains was heightened last July when runaway oil train derailed and exploded in Lac-Megantic, Quebec, near the Maine border. Forty-seven people died and 30 buildings were incinerated. Canadian investigators said the combustibility of the 1.3 million gallons of light, sweet Bakken crude released in Lac-Megantic was comparable to gasoline.

"This is another national wake-up call," Jim Hall, a former National Transportation Safety Board chairman, said of the Lynchburg crash. "We have these oil trains moving all across the United States through communities and the growth and distribution of this has all occurred, unfortunately, while the federal regulators have been asleep."

http://apnews.excite.com/article/20140501/train_derailment-virginia-f19fb640c3.html


More & more rail disasters involving crude oil that should have been pumped through a delayed pipeline rather than dangerously railed through populated centers.
 John255317
Joined: 12/28/2012
Msg: 139
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 4/30/2014 8:15:15 PM
I would say the President would say after this happening that there isn't a smidgeon of proof that rail cars are unsafe.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 140
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 4/30/2014 9:06:06 PM
Following a suspicion I had about the conclusions of the article (it's not the first I have seen about these train derailings), I will post the concluding paragraphs:

As for oil-train safety problems, in one of her last acts before leaving office last week, outgoing National Transportation Safety Board Chairman Deborah Hersman warned President Barack Obama's administration that it needs to take steps immediately to protect the public from potentially catastrophic accidents even if it means using emergency authority.

The safety board has long recommended that the Department of Transportation toughen its design standard for the kind of rail tank cars used to transport crude oil and ethanol. The cars are too easily punctured or ruptured, even in low-speed accidents. Their flammable contents are then spilled, fouling the environment and often igniting.

"We are very clear that this issue needs to be acted on very quickly," Hersman told reporters at the conclusion of a two-day forum on the safety of transporting oil and ethanol by rail.

Glen Besa, the executive director of the Virginia chapter of the Sierra Club, reiterated those concerns.

"This accident is a potent reminder of the dangers that come with our dependence on dirty fuels and reinforces the need for better safety measures and increased emergency preparedness," Besa said in a statement.

In 2011, the oil, ethanol and railroad industries agreed to toughen standards for rail cars known as DOT-111s, which are the kind of tank cars used to transport most flammable liquids. However, since then, there have been several accidents in which cars built to the new standards ruptured. NTSB officials have said the voluntary standards don't go far enough.

It's most likely the tank cars involved in the Lynchburg accident were older DOT-111s or new "enhanced" DOT-111s because that is what is primarily being used to transport crude oil, said Bob Chipkevich, a former head of NTSB rail accidents investigations.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/train-catches-fire-lynchburg-va-derailment-23535898

No word about the pipeline from anyone. There is a call to action for the president, but, again, not about the pipeline. Just a call for the government regulators to step up and regulate. The free market wisdom is that no business wants to see this much product lost to accidents, so there is a natural incentive to invest in safer but more costly tanker cars. Oddly enough, that is not proving to be an adequate solution in reality...
 Neopoli
Joined: 3/1/2011
Msg: 141
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 5/1/2014 7:24:45 AM
Of course. No word about the pipeline from anyone in the article, because everyone interviewed for the article is either an anti-pipeline administration figurehead, an anti-pipeline environmentalist or a pro-rail industry rep. Nobody included will dare say anything about that mouse of a pipeline with that elephant of monthly rail spills in the news.

Also, upgrading tanker cars will not completely stop rail spills....only reduce the chance of them rupturing.

Lastly, upgrading these tankers will have no effect on derailments. That is a completely seperate but deadly issue.

I merely posted this for the grim reality content of yet another monthly rail disaster involving a record number(& growing exponentially) of crude oil tankers being hauled thru towns, cities, major population centers, over bridges that span waterways, & along major highways, to name a few.....due in part to delayed pipelines. I will update post the next rail disaster that involves of crude oil tankers hauling oil (when it happens again) that should otherwise be transported thru a delayed pipeline.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 142
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Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 5/1/2014 10:44:35 AM

More & more rail disasters involving crude oil that should have been pumped through a delayed pipeline rather than dangerously railed through populated centers.


I think the real point is if we're not going to use the oil from the tar sands (ie. it's not for our use but for use elsewhere in the world) ...

... and we object to it being used elsewhere (related to the pollution factor) ...

... why in the world would we want to let them transport it through our country?
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 143
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History
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 5/1/2014 12:42:49 PM

More & more rail disasters involving crude oil that should have been pumped through a delayed pipeline rather than dangerously railed through populated centers.


I'd also like to point out that this ^^ is most accurately translated as

"We've proven conclusively that we are entirely incompetent, trying to use well-established technology to transport our poisonous chemicals. Therefore, we would like you to vote to spend your taxes, and risk your and your children's livelihood, to help us use a different method, on the off chance that we will suddenly become competent by magic."
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 144
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 5/1/2014 1:44:14 PM
^^^ It is not that simple. There is always going to be an inherent margin of accidents no matter the vehicle. It's just that a very large amount of oil is being carried by train now.

Here's an article that seems to have a handle on the complexities involved:

Crude oil is moving around the world, around our country, around pristine wilderness, around our cities and towns. It’s going to keep moving, will undoubtedly increase during our new energy boom, so what is the safest way to move it?

The short answer is: truck worse than train worse than pipeline worse than boat (Oilprice.com). But that’s only for human death and property destruction. For the normalized amount of oil spilled, it’s truck worse than pipeline worse than rail worse than boat (Congressional Research Service). Different yet again is for environmental impact (dominated by impact to aquatic habitat), where it’s boat worse than pipeline worse than truck worse than rail.

So it depends upon what your definition is for worse. Is it death and destruction? Is it amount of oil released? Is it land area or water volume contaminated? Is it habitat destroyed? Is it CO2 emitted?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2014/04/26/pick-your-poison-for-crude-pipeline-rail-truck-or-boat/
 Neopoli
Joined: 3/1/2011
Msg: 145
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 5/2/2014 7:33:01 AM

A woman who witnessed the derailment in Lynchburg said that the train was making a much louder noise than usual. That tells me that the train wline.as traveling at an abnormal speed through section of the rail line.



Wrong. The noise the woman heard was a set of wheels on the front or back trolley of ONE car that had already derailed(for whatever reason), & the set of derailed wheels were tearing up the spikes & plates that hold the rail in place. It makes a horrific noise even at walking speed.

As this transpires from that ONE derailed set of wheels, the other set of wheels on the other trolley of that ONE car also derail, setting up a chain reaction of sorts. More rail cars in the rear derail due to track damage, & also from the derailed rail car pulling the others off the track.

It has nothing to do with speed. Trains derail like this going 5 MPH...Ive seen it dozens of times in the railyards of the iron industry I worked in for 30 years. Iron rail lines, & the spikes, plates, & railroad ties that tie it all together to make up today's track are 19th century transportation technology that hasnt changed much at all in the past 100 years .

All of these monthly disasters involve tanker cars that are hauling crude oil from the Bakken oil fields in the northern U.S. tier and Canada(the very same regions the delayed Keystone pipeline is supposed to serve), desperately trying to get to a refinery on any available track.

The delayed pipeline would pump most of this tankered oil straight to the prepared refinery bases in their Gulf ports, rather than it being scattered in thousands of tankers hauling 30,000 gallons at a time across half the country.

As a result of this pipeline delay , its hundreds of thousands of detoured oil tankers going straight through your city, town, over the rivers, using any tracks available, going hundreds of miles out of their way to try to get it to any refinery due to already clogged & congested rail lines that are bottle-necked in the Gulf area, which is a direct result of the delay of this dedicated pipeline (that would pipe this shit STRAIGHT to its destination).

 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 146
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Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 5/2/2014 8:51:51 AM

... desperately trying to get to a refinery on any available track.
The only desperate part about that statement is the greediness of the owners. They are desperate to cash in.


As a result of this pipeline delay , its hundreds of thousands of detoured oil tankers going straight through your city, town, over the rivers ...
You can't imagine how it pleases me to see all the concern for our environment.

You're right ... we sure don't want that "going straight through your city, town, over the rivers". Have you considered that extracting hydrocarbons from the sands releases more carbon dioxide than conventional oil drilling, adding to global warming.


... clogged & congested rail lines that are bottle-necked in the Gulf area, which is a direct result of the delay of this dedicated pipeline ...
I looked for all kinds of data related to that statement and found nothing. Could you please provide a link that backs up that statement.


... that would pipe this shit ...
Yes ... shit is a good description for it. And no matter how badly the teabaggers and greedy Repugnicants want it, neither the states it will run through nor the president want it.
 GreenThumbz18
Joined: 4/25/2012
Msg: 147
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 5/6/2014 8:34:11 PM
"And no matter how badly the teabaggers and greedy Repugnicants want it, neither the states it will run through nor the president want it."
So?

Senate Wrangles Over Energy, Keystone XL Pipeline Measures
By Katie Wall and Carrie Dann
http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/senate-wrangles-over-energy-keystone-xl-pipeline-measures-n98276
A heated dispute spilled onto the Senate floor Tuesday as leaders wrangled over a measure to approve construction of the Keystone XL pipeline.
Republicans want to attach the Keystone measure as one of several amendments to the energy efficiency bill proposed by Sens. Rob Portman of Ohio and Jeanne Shaheen of New Hampshire. Some embattled red state Democrats, eager to get on the record supporting the pipeline but wary of scuttling the underlying bill, want a separate vote on the pipeline approval.
On Tuesday morning, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid compared negotiations with the GOP to the pursuit of a greased pig at the rodeo, arguing that Republicans have asked for too much in exchange for the Keystone vote.
“Oftentimes working with my Republican colleagues reminds me of chasing these little pigs,” Reid said on the Senate floor. “Nearly every time we make progress we see it slip out of our hands and we see the Republicans scamper away.”
Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell chastised Reid for the theatrical speech, saying the Republican request for amendments was fair.
First published May 6th 2014, 9:17 am
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 148
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 5/9/2014 12:00:26 AM
Well then, we have the perfect balance to keep going forward then, all is good. Quotes from 1970, "[One] theory assumes that the earth's cloud cover will continue to thicken as more dust, fumes, and water vapor are belched into the atmosphere by industrial smokestacks and jet planes. Screened from the sun's heat, the planet will cool, the water vapor will fall and freeze, and a new Ice Age will be born." — Newsweek magazine

"The world has been chilling sharply for about twenty years. If present trends continue, the world will be about four degrees colder for the global mean temperature in 1990, but eleven degrees colder in the year 2000. This is about twice what it would take to put us into an ice age." — Kenneth Watt

The next insidious quotes to laugh about decades hence will have Al Gore leading the way.

This is a ridiculously disingenuous claim that attempts to assert a false premise... Climate change deniers are regularly trying to pull this dishonest claim by conflating popular belief with accepted scientific belief... Global cooling was NEVER a widely accepted scientific opinion... Global cooling was more a matter of media created myth than accepted science... Even in the '70's the bulk of the research, and the majority opinion, pointed towards global warming...

This specious "first it was cooling, now it's warming. Make up your mind" claim foisted by the deniers is horse-hockey...
 Neopoli
Joined: 3/1/2011
Msg: 149
Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 5/9/2014 6:49:11 AM

Have you considered that extracting hydrocarbons from the sands releases more carbon dioxide than conventional oil drilling, adding to global warming.


Yes. But Ive already considered the fact that most of the easily obtained surface oil in North America & the globe has already been extracted through this less carbon dioxide-intensive method of "conventional oil drilling".

"Conventional oil drilling" now consists of foriegn countries now supplying most of our oil, along with deep wells in the ocean. This foriegn oil must be extracted, tankered, & shipped here.

Have you considered that extracting this needed conventional oil from foriegn & offshore deep wells , & shipping hafway across the globe to the U.S. in thousands of ocean-bound tankers releases more carbon dioxide than the largely extinct "conventional domestic shallow oil drilling" of the past, adding to global warming(not to mention the past oil distasters resulting from this) ?

Ive also considered the fact that, since this most easily obtained surface oil on the continent has already been extracted, regional fracking for these hydrocarbons(OIL & GAS) is the next logical way of supplying this domestic energy source to where it will be consumed. Fracked gas is replacing coal in power plants, & that coal releases more carbon dioxide than either fracked oil/gas, or oil derived from tar sands.

I am also aware that extracting these hydrocarbons from the sands is presently happening on a large scale, will continue to happen. Until you stop it, it must be dealt with.

Ive also considered the fact that since it must be dealt with, the most energy efficient way of transporting this oil is through a pipeline. Have you considered that hauling oil in thousands & thousands of tanker cars releases more carbon dioxide than pumpung it efficiently through a designated pipeline, adding to global warming?

Why are we burning millions of gallons of diesel fuel lugging this dangerous product in hundreds of thousands of tanker cars to market through populated areas(not to mention the past oil distasters resulting from this) instead of piping it through an appropriate pipeline...?

Ive also considered the fact that when these tankers derail & catch fire , thousands & thousands of gallons of this oil burns, releasing more carbon dioxide than if it were piped through an appropriate pipeline.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 150
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Decision On Keystone XL Pipeline Delayed
Posted: 5/11/2014 4:17:41 PM

Have you considered that extracting this needed conventional oil from foriegn & offshore deep wells , & shipping hafway across the globe to the U.S. in thousands of ocean-bound tankers releases more carbon dioxide than the largely extinct "conventional domestic shallow oil drilling" of the past, adding to global warming(not to mention the past oil distasters resulting from this) ?
Sigh ...

See ... I don't consider that at all because I don't believe we need it.

I think it's much more important for us to look for alternative energy ... believe we should have been doing this for years and years ... believe we need to learn to think past the end of our noses. We simply just cannot continue to pollute at the current rate because if we do, our grandchildren and their grandchildren will pay a high price for what we do today.
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