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Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?      Home login  
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 427cammer
Joined: 3/1/2008
Msg: 26
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Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?Page 2 of 11    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11)
I like OyVay's and Carolann's posts.

Trinity:

Geez, Igor. Usually your posts are very balanced...

I tend to agree with this, but sometimes he really puts his foot in his mouth.... this is one of those occasions.

Igor:

Neither of these things has a specific definition, accepted both by the people who so label themselves, and by the people who label them.

While it has been a popular "sport" amongst some self-described "conservatives" to attack anyone they don't like, and label them as "liberals," the only consistent commonality there, is the self-blinding hostility.

If I label someone as a liberal or "as coming from the left", it is never meant as a perjorative.... just an apt description. Although I've noticed many don't like it, if one consistantly attacks one groups' ideas while defending the other side just as consistantly, why would I tippytoe around it? For the most part, many of those who want to claim to be above "labels" just don't have that much uniqueness in their thinking to warrant anything else.

Someone who says that liberals were the offending group 40 years ago, but since then it's been conservatives who've been doing the bashing, is not making a fair statement... they are making an untruthful attack. It's easy enough to recognise just from reading these forums that nastiness is coming from both sides.

Halftime:

A Canadian conservative will be much farther left than an American liberal.

There's no truth to this... not sure how this idea has managed to pick up so much traction among Canadian liberals... I kinda get the feeling it's an attempt to maintain some sort of feeling of moral superiority for our own country.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 27
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Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?
Posted: 11/26/2011 3:41:26 AM
Someone who says that liberals were the offending group 40 years ago, but since then it's been conservatives who've been doing the bashing, is not making a fair statement... they are making an untruthful attack.


I agree, but then that's because I didn't say what you have paraphrased. I said that the self-proclaimed conservative shouters have, of late, been the loudest. Not that those on the other side have become fonts of pure reason.

And, as I have tried to push forward on many occasions, I also said that the failures of ONE group or person, NEVER excuse those same failures in another group or person. That people on the left say stupid, vapid, biased, self-righteous things against the right, is NOT a legitimate excuse for the right to do the same in reverse.

For the purposes of this thread, you CANNOT gain the moral high ground, by diving into the same muddy pit of careless antagonism and prejudice as your opponent.

Finally, the biggest problem with someone CLAIMING to have the moral high ground, is that they usually mean by that, that they will from this point forward, refuse to listen to the other side no matter what. They will instead enshrine their prejudices and call them "wisdom," thus ceasing all genuine effort to SOLVE, anything.
 427cammer
Joined: 3/1/2008
Msg: 28
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Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?
Posted: 11/26/2011 5:18:51 AM

I said that the self-proclaimed conservative shouters have, of late, been the loudest.

You've paraphrased here too.... and it doesn't appear that you've done so more accurately than my attempt. At any rate, I disagree on which shouters are the loudest.

And, as I have tried to push forward on many occasions, I also said that the failures of ONE group or person, NEVER excuse those same failures in another group or person.

...and I've seen you push this forward many times. Your attempts to foster more civil discussion are sabatoged when you repeatedly point out shortcomings of conservatives while ignoring that liberals are equally as guilty. As proof... look back through your posting history and see which side you're admonishing on all those occasions.

For the purposes of this thread, you CANNOT gain the moral high ground, by diving into the same muddy pit of careless antagonism and prejudice as your opponent.

I'm not really interested in claiming the high ground; I've said many times that most of my views would side me with the conservatives.... therefore the views that I challenge are most often those of liberals.

I've never claimed to be impartial... I always get the feeling that you are trying to make that claim. Just my opinion, but I don't think you're doing any better job at achieving fair-mindedness than myself.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 29
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Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?
Posted: 11/26/2011 7:18:38 AM
Being impartial does NOT mean one posts an identical number of challenges of each side of an issue. It means one doesn't take sides on an issue based on prejudices.

I am trying to steer a course of my own choosing, based on the same sort of logic I have always used to fix machines.

When there is a problem, I address that problem. Many people ask why I work on more of one brand of machine than another at times, and I accurately reply that that particular brand is more often broken these days.

If you see me respond in opposition to more of one side of things than another, it is because I see more errors on that side at that time. If, by chance, you find me opposing something YOU say more often than not, it isn't because I am prejudiciously in favor of the other side, it's because I read what I think are errors in your logic or facts.


I am also NOT trying to be "fair minded." I am trying to correct what I see as errors in logic, because I am convinced that WHATEVER results from accurate recognition of facts and of logical reasoning, will be the best and most stable results for us.

I differ from ANYONE who, as a basic tenant, thinks that some sector of people is more "discardable" than another. You can call that an "partial" concept if you like. It has the result that I don't take the side of a PROCESS over the health and welfare of all of the people affected by it. Hence I find fault BOTH with pure left, AND pure right "solutions."
 bucsgirl
Joined: 5/13/2006
Msg: 30
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Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?
Posted: 11/26/2011 7:24:49 AM
"May the best philosophy win!"

I didn't know philosophy was a sport. Of course, IMO neither is poker but it's on ESPN.

This is one of those why does a dog chase a car "discussions", there really is nothing particularly useful to be derived, nor is the OP seeking it.
 vlad dracul
Joined: 4/30/2009
Msg: 31
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Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?
Posted: 11/26/2011 7:53:59 AM
Well over here our conservatives and liberals run the country (badly in my view) together.
I see conservatism as offering more individual freedoms although only for daft things whilst liberals want to tell you what freedoms you can have as long as it fits their agenda.
A plague on both their houses though.
Labour who used to be the socialist alternative have nothing to offer just now.
I do notice most of the thread complainers are usually from the more liberal viewpoints.
But to me the future would contain very little liberalism as I don't see anything they have to offer.
 427cammer
Joined: 3/1/2008
Msg: 32
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Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?
Posted: 11/26/2011 8:00:04 AM

Being impartial does NOT mean one posts an identical number of challenges of each side of an issue. It means one doesn't take sides on an issue based on prejudices.

Being impartial should mean that one should try not to make unfair statements... and then if it's pointed out to you that a statement is unfair because one side is criticised for a behaviour for which both sides are equally guilty (and not just back in the 1970's), then you should not revert to the circular argument of "conservatives' bad behaviour is not excusable just because the liberals are also doing it". I've never tried excusing this type of behaviour from either side.
 timetogo3223
Joined: 9/29/2011
Msg: 33
Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?
Posted: 11/26/2011 8:24:36 AM
buc...




I didn't know philosophy was a sport. Of course, IMO neither is poker but it's on ESPN.

This is one of those why does a dog chase a car "discussions", there really is nothing particularly useful to be derived, nor is the OP seeking it.


Dear buc,

I didn't know virtual mind reading was now a possibility. So happy you know what I'm "seeking".

Thank you also for your comments on the utility this discussion. Many things can be considered "sport". Including poker and including vapid, off-subject blathering.
 A_Gent
Joined: 8/18/2011
Msg: 34
Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?
Posted: 11/26/2011 1:11:05 PM
For a more informed discussion I suggest the reader go to TED dot COM and search for Jonathan Haidt on the moral roots of liberals and conservatives. Kinda gets to the heart of the topic, n'est pas?

Or you can do a google search for his website... here is a sample... "Morality, by its very nature, makes it hard to study morality. It binds people together into teams that seek victory, not truth. It closes hearts and minds to opponents even as it makes cooperation and decency possible within groups."

His research identifies "5 sets of moral intuitions: Harm/care, Fairness/reciprocity, Ingroup/loyalty, Authority/respect, and Purity/sanctity. Across 4 studies using multiple methods, liberals consistently showed greater endorsement and use of the Harm/care and Fairness/reciprocity foundations compared to the other 3 foundations, whereas conservatives endorsed and used the 5 foundations more equally."

So one might infer that liberals are more moral in a two areas, but conservatives are more moral overall. Which is superior? All depends on your biases.

But to summarize the effect of such moral foundations... conservatives value order and personal responsibility, perhaps at the risk of limiting personal freedoms. Liberals resist personal responsibility, perhaps to the extent of resenting authority.

But we could just as well ask who is more moral, women or men? The point is that depending on one's point of view, either is. Liberals/conservatives, men/women.... Neither is necessarily superior. They each have their strength, but neither is complete. They each have weaknesses. Domination by either group/gender leads to disaster. Instead of trying to dominate and change the other into one's own perspective, why not try to understand each other, admit the limitations of one's own views.... and work to a more harmonious and constructive outcome?

Off you go now.. do your homework.

Become informed, not just opinionated..
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 35
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Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?
Posted: 11/26/2011 1:42:45 PM

I didn't know philosophy was a sport. Of course, IMO neither is poker but it's on ESPN.


Socrates did. He also enjoyed living off of society and owning nothing as a sport. Those crazy philosophers....

And of course he was killed for corrupting the youth.

Really interesting that 'A philosopher king' would be the best ruler and that even if he existed he would only live one lifetime leaving his kingdom doomed to eventual corruption...

Sigh... Let’s all go to the lobby.

"Morally Superior", that is not possible to discuss without knowing the definition of morality which would probably take about six months to break down if this were an actual philosophical debate.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 36
Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?
Posted: 11/26/2011 2:53:25 PM
Halftime:

A Canadian conservative will be much farther left than an American liberal.

There's no truth to this... not sure how this idea has managed to pick up so much traction among Canadian liberals... I kinda get the feeling it's an attempt to maintain some sort of feeling of moral superiority for our own country.

I'll give some examples:
Obama is seen as a wild eyed Marxist by some on the right in America. When running for President, he specifically campaigned against a "Canadian style" health plan. Diefenbaker is the guy who introduced our system, and there isn't a single politician on the Conservative side who is against universal health care.

Obama is against gay marriage. I'd bet that as a Canadian conservative, you're for it.

On God, guns and abortion, Obama is farther right than Harper. In fact, earlier this year the National Post compared the two and found Harper farther left than Obama on every issue.

I've voted Conservative. I know Conservative elected officials. Even in private, away from scrutiny, they are much farther left than the official position of the GOP. Or the Democratic party.
 SweetLilGTP
Joined: 10/22/2010
Msg: 37
Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?
Posted: 11/26/2011 3:31:28 PM
1. Define morality
2.Define Liberalism
3. Define Conservatism
Once you've done that, then and only then, can you have this discussion.




Sorta about the tone of what I was going to post myself.

I'll check in in about 60 or so years to see what we've come up with.




I believe that having a mixture of both ideologies in honestly debated counterbalance is morally superior to a pure ideology moving forward unchallenged. It's sort of a "Yin-Yang" thing.


I'll start my donor card there, and see where I move it when I check back in.

See you in 2071 <--wow.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 38
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Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?
Posted: 11/26/2011 4:23:37 PM

Obama is seen as a wild eyed Marxist by some on the right in America.


I will admit to holding that view. All the way to him being a conspiracy plot that goes back 50 years to raise someone just for this purpose.

Conspiracy theories are great fun. If we were in the 1800's the political satire that could be used on what he symbolizes to the conservative conspiracy theorist would make Pee Wee Herman a better candidate. That’s the nature of American politics and it’s strangely funny that we haven't changed but hardly even realize it.
 SoBayNative
Joined: 10/30/2011
Msg: 39
Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?
Posted: 11/26/2011 7:03:59 PM
Conservatism is morally superior everyone knows that.
 bucsgirl
Joined: 5/13/2006
Msg: 40
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Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?
Posted: 11/26/2011 7:23:29 PM
This doesn't even qualify for fuzzy logic, another MBA word the is defined, but none of my fellow students knew what it was.

To even attempt to start a "discussion" about moral superiority, it defies even fuzzy logic. Morality is not defined logically, it's a concept that's only and can only be defined personally. If there were more that understood or accepted that, then it's possible or probable there would have been many lives saved. Not a student of history, don't claim to be, the little I DO know is that more wars have been fought over religious differences, which translates, logically to moral superiority.

It's all such a dog chasing a car...pfft. I know what my morals are that I live by, they're important TO ME. I respect and accept that other people's morals are their own, and I'd never consider to foster my morals on them. Some understand, and we can be friends, care about each other, have interesting ACTUAL discussions where our morals and/or beliefs are polar opposites. And yet..umm..we still have long term and loving relationships and get along famously, because there is the RESPECT of not even thinking about trying to foster my morals on someone or anyone else. Superiority of morals? Wowsers, someone who thought so would be a very lonely person and deservedly so.
 timetogo3223
Joined: 9/29/2011
Msg: 41
Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?
Posted: 11/26/2011 9:31:32 PM
buc...


Morality is not defined logically, it's a concept that's only and can only be defined personally.


Situation Ethics is the definition of personally defined morality. Throughout human history, until the infusion of what you term "fuzzy logic", there were absolutes that crossed almost every cultural barrier.

The morals you live by may be acceptable to you, but can be entirely evil and wrong -- or could be righteous and good. But if you have no baseline, not template, how do you know, exactly? Just because it feels good does not mean it is good. Ask your run of the mill serial killer.

Your implied superiority at the thought of being above morality is the deceit of many. Not all personally conceived "morals" are equal, as they are just that, personally conceived and derived, with some, from a basis of, well, nothing. Or worse, human greed. The hubris of feigned accommodation to opposing morals and thus behavior is a fatal conceit. It sounds very tolerant and sophisticated, but it is sophistry.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 42
Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?
Posted: 11/26/2011 10:22:15 PM
She didn't say anything about situational ethics. What the hell were you reading?

She did express the problem of defining the terms. Something that has been asked of you several times here. Instead of defining the terms, you seem to just kvetch about what you imagine was said.

The only unassailable definition of morality I've seen was Kant's Categorical Imperative (look it up - you started a thread about morality). Anyway, set your terms. Don't just lurk for things to pounce on.
 lotustemple
Joined: 10/23/2011
Msg: 43
Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?
Posted: 11/26/2011 11:02:23 PM
I think modern day liberals and conservatives are so manipulated and programmed by special interest groups that they don't really have a clue.

What's morally superior? Someone who doesn't play the bipartisan game of identifying with either side.

Polical leaders and now corporations have played populations against themselves since the beginning. Morally intelligent people can see beyond the manipulation in my opinion.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 44
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Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?
Posted: 11/26/2011 11:04:59 PM
I still find it interesting that no one is jumping in...

why? Because even though for the most part people disagree. Most are not A%%hats that think they are better than everyone else.

Realizing that unfortunately leads to people discussing things and often compromises. Something that is typically considered weak.
 427cammer
Joined: 3/1/2008
Msg: 45
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Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?
Posted: 11/27/2011 1:23:07 AM

Obama is seen as a wild eyed Marxist by some on the right in America.

Listening to him go on about "the rich not paying their share" for the past several months, I'm reminded of Jack Layton.

When running for President, he specifically campaigned against a "Canadian style" health plan. Diefenbaker is the guy who introduced our system, and there isn't a single politician on the Conservative side who is against universal health care.

I'll concede this point, and I think universal healthcare is preferable. At the same time, most Canadians realise that there is much wrong with our system, and it really ticks me off to see TV ads paid for by nurses' unions campaigning against any party daring to suggest that changes need to be made.... just dirty scare tactics.

Obama is against gay marriage. I'd bet that as a Canadian conservative, you're for it.

While I wouldn't bother walking across the street to weigh in on this issue, If I already happened to be in a voting booth... I'd tick "No". Furthermore I have several friends who I have every reason to believe vote NDP (somewhat rare in Alberta... but if you know a lot of farmers, and I do), many of these people are much more homophobic than myself. Also, while I'm a somewhat weak advocate for Pro Choice, these same farmers I mentioned would mostly side against abortion.

On God, guns and abortion, Obama is farther right than Harper. In fact, earlier this year the National Post compared the two and found Harper farther left than Obama on every issue.

What's God got to do with being a conservative?

Harper is repealing the long gun registry.... while I realise that in many states gun laws are much more lax than here, when's the the last time someone down south passed laws making it easier to get guns?

When's the last time a US President made serious moves against abortion?

Conservatism, first and foremost, is about fiscal responsibility. Our government sucks eggs in this area, and we're still better than the US. Our country has lower corporate tax rates, also our lower income and middle class pay higher income tax rates than the Americans. We also have shorter terms for unemployment benifits, and our oilsands are in production.

People are all different, and I find it very rare to meet someone who is ideologically in sympatico with the philosophies of either liberalism or conservatism. Other than what I can pick up from news programs, these forums are the only place where I get to hear from Americans on their political views. From what I've seen posted here, most of the radical liberals here are Americans... I'm pretty sure I've never met anyone in real life as hardcore left as some of the posters here.
 timetogo3223
Joined: 9/29/2011
Msg: 46
Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?
Posted: 11/27/2011 5:24:46 AM
halfa....



[quote' She didn't say anything about situational ethics. What the hell were you reading?

I stand with my assertion that she was implying that morals are a personal issue decided personally and with no objective guidelines.

What is funny is the hostility over a thread. For so many they must just sit on a pile of ice up there waiting to be outraged over something. If one does not like the thread or thinks it ill defined, don't participate. It's as easy as not watching an evil or stupid news network, don't. Eventually, as all threads do, it will wither and die.

For those who claim this thread was started for the sake of argument, yes. Duh! Isn't that the point of some of these threads on these forums. If one can't or does not like the a wee bit of controversy, there is the Sewing Thread or the Watching Paint Dry thread. It's interesting that those who find no common definition of morality are the ones who are most outraged and angry and condescending of this little thread on a corner of a dating website.

Chill. It shouldn't be too hard in some areas of the continent.
 Pingshooter
Joined: 3/15/2009
Msg: 47
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Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?
Posted: 11/27/2011 5:33:47 AM

I have abandoned hope of seeing any form of "representative government" under this facade of "choice" that is two party politics. The financiers hedge their bets on who will win just like everything else. Nothing changes even when the "party in power" supposedly does.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.


Seriously..did anyone really think anything would change? Honestly?

You have a choice, they will tell you what you chose, and you will like. There..end.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 48
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Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?
Posted: 11/27/2011 5:51:49 AM

you should not revert to the circular argument of "conservatives' bad behaviour is not excusable just because the liberals are also doing it".


Since you think that holding someone responsible for their own behavior regardless of what someone else does is a "circular argument," it is clear to me that either basic logical reasoning is not your strong suit, or we have a language barrier of some sort. I will leave you to your confused musings.

All in all I have concluded that the answer to the title of this thread is, neither and both, because each side has good and bad ideas and adherents. At least that's what I've seen in my lifetime.
 trinity818
Joined: 9/1/2006
Msg: 49
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Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?
Posted: 11/27/2011 5:54:31 AM
Msg 38 by "a gent" really summed it up nicely and is worth repeating:


...TED dot COM and search for Jonathan Haidt on the moral roots of liberals and conservatives.

... "Morality, by its very nature, makes it hard to study morality. It binds people together into teams that seek victory, not truth. It closes hearts and minds to opponents even as it makes cooperation and decency possible within groups."

His research identifies "5 sets of moral intuitions: Harm/care, Fairness/reciprocity, Ingroup/loyalty, Authority/respect, and Purity/sanctity. Across 4 studies using multiple methods, liberals consistently showed greater endorsement and use of the Harm/care and Fairness/reciprocity foundations compared to the other 3 foundations, whereas conservatives endorsed and used the 5 foundations more equally."

... Neither is necessarily superior. They each have their strength, but neither is complete. They each have weaknesses. Domination by either group/gender leads to disaster. Instead of trying to dominate and change the other into one's own perspective, why not try to understand each other, admit the limitations of one's own views.... and work to a more harmonious and constructive outcome?
 bucsgirl
Joined: 5/13/2006
Msg: 50
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Is Liberalism or Conservatism Morally Superior? And Why?
Posted: 11/27/2011 6:23:31 AM
"I stand with my assertion that she was implying that morals are a personal issue decided personally and with no objective guidelines."

Just out of curiosity, since you are the one who posted this thread, do you have anything to say that isn't a comment on what other people post? How do you define morality for yourself, and what are your objective guidelines?

It is divisive to allege "moral superiority" whether it's in the political, social or business realm. Whatever individual or group sets forth their beliefs or mission as morally superior is, at the same time, setting themselves up as representative to judge what IS moral and what IS superior. The very idea is ridiculous, it's the playground mentality, my ball is bigger than yours......seriously.
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