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 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 35
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Breaking the law: A morality issue?Page 2 of 9    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9)
I was taught at age 18, re-enforced by my spiritutal leader in the Methodist Church, that killing "godless communists" was not only a good thing, but acceptable behavior despite the Beatitudes and the previous indoctrination against the "Thou Shalt not Kill" demandment.

Morality as presented as fluid and changing, arbitrary, and capricious at such a young age, does force kiddos like us at the time, to wonder about the authority behind such actions and demands on us as kids killing hundreds of innocents for the empire. The desensitization process that they used then, to be able to kill humans with the same emotional impact of killing flies, is a form of emotional terrorism that sticks with the pawns of wars, forever clouding the "morality" of participation in such events, the rest of ones' life, and how to live in peace in a culture of worship of death dealing for others not like us.

The "pro-life" segment of our culture seems to love the death penalty, don't care about bombing and poisoning Arab mothers, children and the unborn of other nations, and could care less about killing innocent minorities in pursuit of white justice...

Morality is used as a weapon, a tool, and is subjective, and manipulative to submit others to the rule of arbitrary laws du jour. Has little to do with actual morality, and much more to do with control of the underclasses.
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 36
Breaking the law: A morality issue?
Posted: 12/16/2011 5:02:40 PM

As a side issue - did you see the documentary on DISCOVERY a week or so back? It was called Curiosity and hosted by Robin Williams. It looked at the effects of certain tasks on 4 addicts who performed the task before and then again after taking their drug of choice.

I saw that as well and was left assuming that R.W. did that because of some type of plea agreement, as that was pretty much about as unscientific as you can get.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 37
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Breaking the law: A morality issue?
Posted: 12/16/2011 5:29:57 PM
^^^^ Hahaha,

I kept waiting for him to get that wild and crazy look that he does, run over and grab the cocaine and run off yelling, "It's mine! It's mine! It's mine!"
 Kohmelo
Joined: 9/20/2011
Msg: 38
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Breaking the law: A morality issue?
Posted: 12/16/2011 6:11:57 PM
OP,
You can see from the responses that people have different perspectives on morality.

Since you are on a dating site, you should realize that you are better off finding someone who does not find your actions immoral, rather than arguing with people about wether it is or not. its all personal
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 40
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Breaking the law: A morality issue?
Posted: 12/16/2011 7:56:35 PM
OP, I have a question for you.

Under what circumstances can you see it appropriate for 'smoking weed' and possession to be illegal?
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 41
Breaking the law: A morality issue?
Posted: 12/16/2011 8:22:36 PM

Gwen, my dear, you'd have to be a right immoral twat to deem any of those example decisions as acceptable. Reason being that you know these decisions run a high risk of causing harm to others, coming to a decision to ignore the fact I'm breaking the law by doing so, and smoking pot causes no harm to anyone other than myself.


Mat, sweetheart, you obviously miss my point--maybe because you just finished a hit on the pipe.

Since the issue is "morality" and breaking laws, how does "one" go about choosing which law is fine to break and which isn't? Just because your subjectivity says that the examples that I give are obvious doesn't mean that others would think the same way.

As for smoking pot NOT causing harm to others--what about smoking and driving when high? Perhaps you would protest that you do not and would not do so, but people do. Is their subjective choice not valid?

If someone is a pot head and doesn't have a job, or even has a job but the grocery money goes to support the pot habit, is that only hurting the smoker?


Does breaking the law instantaniously make you an immoral person.


Define "immoral."
 Ubiquitous.
Joined: 11/7/2009
Msg: 42
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Breaking the law: A morality issue?
Posted: 12/16/2011 11:12:10 PM
Rosa Parks sure was immoral
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 43
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Breaking the law: A morality issue?
Posted: 12/16/2011 11:42:29 PM

Rosa Parks sure was immoral


uggggggg.... She didn't sit down on the bus and smoke a blunt! WTH man...

Stop justifying it!!!!!!

If you don't like the laws then get your act together and make it legal. It was done with alcohol. It's not far from at least becoming legal for medical use and that still won't make it f*n legal. That’s legal for medical use not because you have a headache occasionally.

Drugs should not be illegal because of the crime they create. Government sucks and all but it would be hard to argue much justification against regulation so that’s about as far as it will ever get. The problem is that it keeps getting voted down by the PEOPLE :) Agree or not, it’s your neighbors, friends, family and peers that keep saying NO!

If you want to bring up another figure such as Rosa Parks, then please. Drive on down to your local police station. Walk in. Sit down and light up. Now you’re talking about standing up against a law you don't believe in. Swinging by Johnnie’s and scoring a bag and supporting the Mexican Drug Cartel is so far away from civil disobedience and any sense of the oblivious justifications given. They CUT PEOPLES HEADS OFF!!!!!

The millions of lives destroyed over minor drug infractions, the criminal enterprise, and the draconian punishments of zero tolerance. Those are worth standing against and supporting legislation to overturn. Not your cheap ass justifications that you’re not hurting anybody... YOU ARE!
Now, go ahead and keep on doing what you do. You do it because you want to. Just don’t lie to yourself and say that it’s victimless. I hope you’re at least thoughtful of the origins of what you’re purchasing. Is it a local source? Anything crossing US borders? Do you care that someone in another country was murdered?
Sorry, this was because someone threw in Rosa Parks as though there was an equivalence
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 45
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Breaking the law: A morality issue?
Posted: 12/17/2011 2:27:43 PM
Mat, how do you feel about buying diamonds from what are considered 'blood diamond' countries. Is it immoral?

If not because your girl needs a diamond. That is equal to smoking weed.
If yes, well, how is it morally different?

Don't pull the "I don't buy diamonds" card either. Other people do so you must judge them here.

edit:: I saw your subsequent post. Don't take it personal. This is actually how philosophical discussions go. It becomes the "I" vs "You" and "Us" vs "Them". Arguments almost always go this direction because it is the source of ideology. It is 'philosophical thought'. Also, almost all philosophical debates are literally arguments. If I'm not mistaken I think that may even be the definition. You have presented your argument and the subsequent arguments back are to prove your arugment flawed. :)
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 47
Breaking the law: A morality issue?
Posted: 12/17/2011 2:34:43 PM
Law is a set of rules set out by man. Morals is what defines an individual's take on what's right or wrong (is this correct?


The intent of law is the moral intent of discouraging harmful behaviour. Law and morality are inseparable. If a "law" doesn't have that intent, it isn't a legitimate law. Hence any "laws" criminalizing unharmful behaviour are not legitimate laws and are known more correctly as regulations and statutes, many of which, while "legal" fail the smell test for true law, as they are usually just a means of making somebody some money off the people against whom these so-called "laws" are enforced.

The only real law is natural law, which put into its simplest terms is "Do no harm". That is the only law you need to abide by to be moral, though unless you enjoy endless fines, court battles and confrontations with the government on the garbage legislation it produces and that it calls "laws", you might want to go along with some of it just to get along.

In that regard and as a caveat, remember this...everything Hitler did was legal, because he was writing the "laws", and from what I've seen lately, some of the "laws" passed in the US and Canada, might have made even Hitler flinch!

Moral: You have a duty to disobey an immoral "law."
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 51
Breaking the law: A morality issue?
Posted: 12/17/2011 3:10:18 PM

Like you say, it's my peers that are keeping it outlawed. If a political party makes legalising cannabis a part of their manifesto then I'd vote for them.

I'm afraid you'd end up disappointed. The US has made drug laws one of their main foreign policy objectives - you couldn't liberalize your laws without the Americans pushing back. British companies would lose access to the US market. Sorry.

he weed I get is grown in the UK, but as you say, the fact it can come from "darker" origins is one of the biggest cases for the leglalisation of it.

That's not really an argument. I eat chocolate. I know most cocoa is harvested by slave labour. I use modern technology. I know the rare metals used comes from African warlords. But marijuana is way too bulky and low cost, as well as being too easy to grow for there to be a big smuggling trade in it. Obviously into America it makes sense, since their draconian drug laws discourage the growing but not the consumption of pot. The market demand means that prices are higher since domestic supply is restricted. But in the UK, like in Canada, it's cheaper, safer and less risky to just grow it rather than smuggle it.
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 52
Breaking the law: A morality issue?
Posted: 12/17/2011 3:18:24 PM

Yes Gwen ... I had just hit a pipe .... that's exactly why I thought "but your method of making "acceptable decisions" is pure rationalization and pure bull excrement" meant exactly that .... and seeing as I apparently missed your point because I must have hit the pipe, then you must have been hitting the pipe too as you're clearly still missing my point.....


How can I be missing your point when you don't exactly know what your point is? If you can't define moral vs. immoral, anything that other posters say are moot points.


I've already conceeded that maybe I don't have a whole grasp as what defines morals/morality but what "immoral" means to me is a person that has no regard for other people by being cruel or neglagent etc ..... so choosing to smoke weed, in my eyes, is in no way immoral.


Sigh. My formative years were spent in one of the pot growing capitals in the US: Humboldt County, CA. I have seen lives wasted due to excessive consumption of weed--pot heads largely have a lack of initiative and a lack of responsibility. You write:
But as I just can't seem to stop myself...... Your examples are all about making bad choices.... and yes, if someone decides that DUI is acceptable they clearly have made a bad decision, ie an invalid decision.


Yet you do not explain how to curb those who make bad decisions vs. those who are responsible.


Aries: the same as alcohol. You cant be drunk and drive, cant go into work drunk, can't buy alcohol until 18 (in UK) and when a barman thinks you've had too much they can refuse to serve you. This is how I believe it should be for cannabis too....


Dude, if you think that laws against using alcohol irresponsibly work, you have lost touch with reality. Neither making it illegal for minors or bartenders refusing to serve patrons have much of an effect on minors or those who desire to drink excessively. If you think that people can't be drunk and drive, tell that to the people who have been killed or maimed by drunk drivers.

Sorry, your biggest thrust in this thread, as Aries said, is that you want validation that you are not immoral. Your sense of immorality does not apply across the board but to your decision to smoke pot.

Let me put your mind at ease: you are not immoral, but you are a lawbreaker. As such, if you are caught, you should be disciplined to the full extent of the law.

As for the person comparing Rosa Parks to a pot smoker, that is not even comparing apples and oranges but more like apples and rocks. Segregation was/is an "immoral" law: the law against smoking weed isn't.

And why are you worried about the matter anyway? Do what you want to do and forget about what others think.
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 53
Breaking the law: A morality issue?
Posted: 12/17/2011 4:11:37 PM

On the contrary, as any "law" via legislation is not a arbiter of absolute morality, only an opinion; it's very simple to show how such a law prohibiting something like "smoking weed" can be shown to be immoral on many levels.


And how is "immoral" defined? (Deja vu.)
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 55
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Breaking the law: A morality issue?
Posted: 12/17/2011 4:16:41 PM

I was asked what I deem appropriate/acceptable to use/have possession of weed


Hmmm... I'm not sure but I think I asked for the opposite. If not I will again.

Under what conditions would you see it as appropriate/acceptable that use/possession of weed be Illegal.

The opposite of legal :) Justify the opposite of what you think would work for you.
 Elmenreich
Joined: 9/23/2009
Msg: 58
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Breaking the law: A morality issue?
Posted: 12/17/2011 4:56:40 PM
Even animal abuse? Then everyone should be a vegetarian. How about abusing the environment? No more cars, I guess. Anyway, I think that the people who run around abusing science to fake people into believing that global warming is a myth are just as bad as wifebeaters.
 Elmenreich
Joined: 9/23/2009
Msg: 60
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Breaking the law: A morality issue?
Posted: 12/17/2011 5:24:28 PM
If someone did to a pet what people regularly do in the meat industry, it would be animal abuse.
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 61
Breaking the law: A morality issue?
Posted: 12/17/2011 5:30:56 PM

If someone did to a pet what people regularly do in the meat industry, it would be animal abuse.

I got a pet cow when I was 8.

We ate him when I was 12.

Is that abuse?
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 63
Breaking the law: A morality issue?
Posted: 12/17/2011 5:42:43 PM

yep, but still eating the meat doesn't make you immoral. And those individuals who regularly treat the animals in slaughter houses cruely ARE commiting animal abuse.....

What if they have consulted with someone like Dr. Temple Grandin, and have employed her suggestions?
 Elmenreich
Joined: 9/23/2009
Msg: 64
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Breaking the law: A morality issue?
Posted: 12/17/2011 6:02:36 PM
It's really the chicken industry where you see the nasty stuff happen.
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 65
Breaking the law: A morality issue?
Posted: 12/17/2011 6:38:04 PM
Mat, Mat, Mat . . . you must like the sound of my name.


Your original post was mostly aimed at my bit about coming to a "valid" decision. The point I was trying to get across is that ......eurgh ..... to be frank I've said it all before and guess I'm just failing at getting it across .....


I KNOW what you are trying to get across: I read poorly written essays for a living. However, that does not mean that you are being successful in your attempt. Mostly, in my subjective opinion, you are using logical fallacies to debunk my examples.


I'm not sure I get you here .... if I understand correctly, isn't that what a lot of this thread has been about? What makes an immoral person?


Are you equating immorality with irresponsibility? Was the young man who caused the deaths of two people and the injuries of many more "immoral" for texting? Or was he "merely" irresponsible?


Sigh. At what point do I give the impression that I'm under any illusion about the effectiveness of these laws? I was asked what I deem appropriate/acceptable to use/have possession of weed.... my answer was a more verbose way of saying "for social use and not just medicinal"


If I recall correctly, you were saying that weed should be "regulated" in the same manner as is alcohol, but that doesn't address the problems that would be cause by legalizing weed--of course, those problems already exist.


2) I had never come across people associating law breaking (in this case weed smoking) with having low moral character


First, I am going to substitute "ethics" for "morality."

I know people who smoke weed and who lack ethics, but that poses a conundrum: are they unethical because the smoke weed, or are do they smoke weed because they are unethical? Both? Neither?

I dislike using "moral" because I associate it with religion as opposed to social/cultural mores. For example, Judaism, Christianity and Islam (among other religions) say that homosexuality is immoral and a sin, but there is no basis for this outside of religious beliefs. Culturally speaking, however, to steal from your neighbor causes strife; as our prime motive as a species is to survive, strife can escalate into violence.

Running a stop sign is not a "sin," but it is unethical because it gives the potential for harm to others and self.

Most of us would agree that harm to others is unethical, but how far do carry "harm to self"? If the greatest majority of a population believes that pot is harmful, shouldn't a law to ban it be ethical? Are we not our "brother's keeper" and shouldn't we keep people from harming themselves?

I don't buy into the existence of sin and though I am quite ethical, I have no morals.


I can't help but worry what people think to a certain extent, one of my many weak points.


You need to get over that.
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 66
Breaking the law: A morality issue?
Posted: 12/17/2011 9:28:31 PM

What logical fallacies has he employed?


1. Pot smoking hurts no one but himself--and by extension, this would apply to anyone who smokes pot. Refer to my statements about how pot affects others.

2. His debunking of my examples about how others use their reasoning to break laws and the response that only "twats" would do the actions I stated. Breaking a law is breaking a law, isn't it?


Heh heh… define "ethical".
(hint -> it isn't consistent with amoral).

While you're at it, you may want to check the definition of "equivocation".
(hint -> it's a logical fallacy)



First, I am going to substitute "ethics" for "morality.” [ . . .]

I dislike using "moral" because I associate it with religion as opposed to social/cultural mores. For example, Judaism, Christianity and Islam (among other religions) say that homosexuality is immoral and a sin, but there is no basis for this outside of religious beliefs. Culturally speaking, however, to steal from your neighbor causes strife; as our prime motive as a species is to survive, strife can escalate into violence.

Running a stop sign is not a "sin," but it is unethical because it gives the potential for harm to others and self.


Read closely: I clearly give my reasons for not using the words interchangeably. If you cannot understand that intent, let me make my use of “ethical” in this instance clearer: it is the social, as opposed to religious, mores of a society. Yup, “moral” and “ethical” are synonyms, but “immorality” is equated with “sin,”
any act regarded as such a transgression, especially a willful or deliberate violation of some religious or moral principle.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sin

People don’t go to hell for running stop signs, eh? Regardless of whether they are caught or not.
 Maverick325
Joined: 5/1/2011
Msg: 67
Breaking the law: A morality issue?
Posted: 12/17/2011 9:33:28 PM
Breaking the law isn't a moral issue in and of itself, but often, the people who made the laws did so because THEY thought it was immoral.

So, saying that breaking the law is immoral is almost the same thing as saying that lawmakers have absolute moral authority and are always right when it comes to morality. Needless to say, that is hogwash. They are just as fallible as anyone else.



Law is a set of rules set out by man. Morals is what defines an individual's take on what's right or wrong (is this correct? Anyone who's seen me about on the forums knows I'm not educated lol).


I would agree with that. Some would take issue with morality as an individual thing, but I think it is up to the individual. Some people will be tempted to yell at me that maybe so and so thinks murder is moral, so it can't possibly be up to the individual. Well, I say, what OTHER people think is moral and what society thinks is moral is not up to one individual. So, if your idea of morality is in conflict that, we make laws and social stigma to discourage you. There's personal morality, and there's a sort of collective morality.

In the case of weed, I am not sure whether it's a good idea for it to be legal or not, but you could make a case that it is immoral because it may cause harm to yourself and others.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 70
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Breaking the law: A morality issue?
Posted: 12/18/2011 1:56:00 PM

Yeah, arguments are debates ... the difference in my eyes is how they are unfolding: A debate is a respectful discussion and an argument can be laced in rudeness and anger.


:) Actually debates are arguments. There is a reason why "political" debates get so heated. It's how it works. When I saw a few YouTube clips on Parliament I could imagine keeping that on TV all the time just for the entertainment value. Some of those 'debates' are hysterical and not at all respectful. It's hilarious.

Quick google search for definition. Without going down a rabbit hold that should suffice.


Search Results
mo•ral•i•ty/məˈralətē/
Noun:
1.Principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behavior.
2.Behavior as it is affected by the observation of these principles.


Consider going to a place where pot is legal. By definition, even though you are in a place where it is legal. The people where you live will still call the act immoral. Because it is in their opinions bad or wrong behavior. If it were legal for medical purposes and you did it... bad behavior. If it were totally legal but regulated and you did it at inappropriate times... bad behavior.

This is why Religion loves morals. It follows you everywhere and is inescapable. That doesn't make morals wrong. That makes behavior able to be judged regardless of circumstance.
 Tah,
Joined: 11/18/2008
Msg: 71
Breaking the law: A morality issue?
Posted: 12/18/2011 4:28:05 PM
American morals thinking drone attacks on weddings are ok but Jullian assange who believes in freedom of information should be locked up.

meh.
 Damienevil
Joined: 2/22/2008
Msg: 72
Breaking the law: A morality issue?
Posted: 12/20/2011 12:42:01 PM
Would you take someones car keys because they are tired?

Being tired can be as bad as being drunk, in terms of its effect upon performance," says safety expert, Dr Ann Williamson, who led the study by the University of NSW Injury Risk Management Research Centre.
"If you get up at 6 a.m. and attempt to drive a vehicle after midnight your performance will be as bad as if you had a 0.05 blood alcohol reading. It's a claim that might surprise people but our research and at least three other studies have reached the same conclusion." The study revealed that three factors are associated with fatigue-related fatalities on country roads: time of day, how long a person had been awake, and recent sleep history. Driving between midnight and 6 a.m. is the most dangerous time to be on the road because the circadian rhythms that control our body clock encourage us to sleep, says Dr Williamson.

"Any truck driver will tell you that the hours just before dawn are when they really fight to stay awake. Sleep deprivation is another risk factor for fatigue related fatalities. If you've had five or less hours sleep for several nights running you're at risk on the road."

Analysis of NSW traffic accident data shows that almost two-thirds of fatal crashes (62 percent) occur on country roads while country NSW has only one-third of the NSW population. Most of those killed on country roads are country residents. It also confirmed that several occupational groups are at higher risk for fatigue-related road crashes on rural roads -- truck drivers, tradespeople and agricultural, forestry and fisheries workers.

Anyone who does long working hours and has little sleep to compensate will be at higher risk of fatigue problems while driving. It's not uncommon, for example, for resident medical officers to work several long consecutive shifts in country hospitals and then get into a car and crash on the way home, especially in the early hours of the morning.

"There might be a preventive role for smart technologies that alert drivers if their driving performance starts to deteriorate or if they're starting to fall asleep at the wheel but we really need to build people's awareness about the risks of fatigue-related road crashes.”

The Country Road Safety Summit runs from 27 to 28 in Port Macquarie, NSW. Organised by the Roads and Traffic Authority and the Motor Accident Authority, the Summit was a recommendation from the NSW Premier's Summit on Alcohol Abuse held in August 2003
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