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Show ALL Forums  > UK forums  > Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?      Home login  
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 matt e
Joined: 12/28/2007
Msg: 88
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Should Scotland vote yes for independance ? Page 15 of 20    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Some good points there Bill, seems some scots dont believe in community if it means they can keep the oil for themselves. They are the true thatchers children.
 Graffiti_Poet
Joined: 1/2/2011
Msg: 89
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Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 1/23/2012 12:16:15 PM
I have changed my mind about nothing theoldbill. The vast majority of EU structural funds are spent in and around London and the Tory heartlands but the EU funds that have been spent in Scotland have given Scotland large numbers of jobs and many other benefits too. Access to these funds would increase for Scotland as an independant nation as would the number of MEPs in the EU parliament thus giving Scotland a much greater say should the Scottish people choose, as I am sure they would, to remain in the EU after independance.

I have not responded to your comments about Yorkshire and London because it is obvious that Scotland is a nation, a country in it's own right, regardless of whether it has been in the UK, the Commonwealth or the EU for 30 years, 300 years or 3,000 years. It is a country and it's people's heritage and history is neither diminished nor subsumed by membership of those unions or of any other. If Yorkshire or London or Cornwall or any other part of the UK wants to secede from the union then that is for them to decide, I have no care one way or the other.

Both countries and regions join and leave unions all the time. Croatia, who have just joined the EU have been members of many different unions in it's time and was a part of Yugoslavia until quite recently. The same is true of most other countries at one time or another and just because Scotland has been in the UK union for 300 years is no reason for it to remain so. Scotland and the Scottish people have to do what is best for Scotland and the Scottish people today.

It is not my intent or desire to persuade you to support or not to support Scottish independance, what you or I want is of no consequence as we are neither of us eligable to vote. However, what those who will be voting should have is access to the facts on which to base their decisions. I have detailed what I believe are some of the many benefits to Scotland in voting for independance, that neither you nor anyone else wants to try to offer any valid reasons for people to vote to remain in the UK is your choice. Those who are eligable to vote will draw their own inferences from that and will hopefully vote accordingly and not based on some ephemeral historical nostalgia.....

matt e,

To date some £260 billion has been put into the UK treasury coffers through NS oil, when compared to the money given to Scotland via the Barnet formula I would suggest that the Scottish people have been more than generous to the rest of the UK since oil was discovered. It is after all Scotlands oil not the UKs...........
 Graffiti_Poet
Joined: 1/2/2011
Msg: 90
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Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 1/23/2012 3:40:12 PM
ifixpcs,

I'm surprised you say you cannot find such evidence, I posted for you and others a detailed assessment by Nial Aslen of the General Expenditure and Review Scotland that has been accepted as correct by the UK treasury and other economists including Prof. Andrew Hughes Hallett. Add up the numbers in there and do the maths yourself if you are that curious to know or doubtful of my or their conclusions. Scotland contributes over 10% of the UK tax take with only just over 8% of the population and that is without the revenues from North Sea oil and gas being added which have put and additional £260 billion into the UK coffers in the past, ie Scotland subsidises England not the other way around and has done for a long time.

Your wish list has by and large been addressed recently by Alex Salmond himself, apart from the silly ones that is. Watch this video and he will provide you with the answers you seek......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpKVK6DI7OQ&feature=relmfu

PS. You can have your goalposts back as well when Scotland leaves the union if you like, ha ha ha.....
 MikeWM
Joined: 2/7/2011
Msg: 91
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Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 1/23/2012 3:58:36 PM
Scotland should vote how it wants to vote, what it "should" do is irrelevant really

On a personal level though, yeah, the concept of the "uk" has always been flawed. And nowadays the extra bits are more hassle than theyre worth and a financial drain that we could do without

I would redirect north sea oil onto the UK mainland first though and move the DVLA into england then kick wales totally to the curb too

If they want independance and all it entails like having to fund their own embassies etc then they should go for it. It will save a bit of much needed money so the crooked twats at whitehall can claim it in expenses or waste it on pointless quangos no doubt
 MikeWM
Joined: 2/7/2011
Msg: 92
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Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 1/23/2012 5:13:58 PM
We could also start by not being so anally retentive about a typo and actually reserving posting for when we have something valid to contribute to the discussion rather than posting just for the sake of posting

But hey, thats life I guess. Empty vessels et al
 andy1961
Joined: 6/15/2006
Msg: 93
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Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 1/23/2012 5:48:03 PM

We could also start by not being so anally retentive about a typo and actually reserving posting for when we have something valid to contribute to the discussion rather than posting just for the sake of posting

But hey, thats life I guess. Empty vessels et al


Anally retentive? No, actually, the man is quite right.

Pages and pages of two bad spelling mistakes! It's Independence - and more importantly Salmond. (Some of you may think he looks like a fish, but he's not one)

 Graffiti_Poet
Joined: 1/2/2011
Msg: 94
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Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 1/24/2012 1:17:15 AM
A superb summation of the case for independence oncearoundthe sun, well done. It is important that we continue to put the case forward without being dragged down to the insulting and derogatory level that many pro unionist and politicians would like us to. It is interesting to see many English people resorting to the threats and insults that we predicted they would. The case for independence has been long in the making but is relatively new to those south of the border. They have not made any preparations for this vote and are completely bereft of any valid argument for Scotland to vote No other than 300 years of historical and ephemeral nostalgia, again, just as was predicted.

Scotland WILL be a successful independent nation and our focus on the benefits, including the probability that we will be able to supply the whole of Europe with almost 1/4 of it's energy requirements through green energy initiatives that are currently being developed and invested in by Scotland and the EU will only go to increase that success.

By late 2014 the Tory abuses of the UK and Scotland in particular will be at their worst. Scotlands plans to invest over £11 billion in re-industrialization of their industry creating hundreds of thousands of jobs and aprenticeships to add to the hundreds of thousands of jobs green technology investments will create will carry the vote for independence.

Scotlands plans to build 6,000 shared equity social houses each year will prevent Scotland being at the mercy of an seriously over inflated housing bubble and it's people will not have billions of pounds of it's tax take given over to buy to let property owners as is currently the case south of the border.

There is little or no chance of Westminster under the Tories making a volte face on their economic plan even though plan A is failing miserably as almost every major financial organisation and reknown economist in the world are now advising them too. That is sad for the English and Welsh people but they voted for the vandals in Westminster not Scotland. Scotlands economic plans for the future are good and built on sound, prudent and sustainable economic policies and will carry the day for the independence camp.

It has been a superb boost for the independence agenda to see that Alistar Darling has been pushed to the front to defend the union. Can you just imagine him telling the people of Scotland how much they will owe the UK for the bank bailouts when he and his party were the ones who failed to regulate the banks and they who bailed them out with no public mandate to do so. The awards of banker bonuses that are imminent and the dire economic figures on the economy that are due soon, predicted to spiralling downhill fast, will be another dagger in the heart of the union. Both Alistar Darling and David Cameron are going to be toast when faced with Alex Salmond in open debate. We can only hope that at some point Gordon Brown and Tony Blair join in and make their views on saving the union public.

Again. an excellent post, well articulated.
 Graffiti_Poet
Joined: 1/2/2011
Msg: 95
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Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 1/24/2012 3:06:39 AM
An excellent article in todays Guardian from Alex Salmond highlighting the vast difference in the quality of the independence debate between him and the aggressive threatening tone adopted by Mr. Cameron and the other pro unionists....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jan/23/scottish-independence-social-union
 Marquis_de_Michaelmas
Joined: 10/23/2008
Msg: 96
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Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 1/24/2012 3:53:41 AM
In the same issue, it appears that Alex Salmond is the only convincing himself that about the quality of the independence debate. The majority think otherwise!


http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/jan/23/scottish-referendum-poll-alex-salmond?intcmp=239
 forum_moderator
Joined: 1/24/2003
Msg: 97
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Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 1/24/2012 9:42:44 AM

For those who wish to carry on a civil discussion - feel free, but be advised yet again, of Post #1

 MikeWM
Joined: 2/7/2011
Msg: 98
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Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 1/24/2012 10:12:59 AM

Anally retentive? No, actually, the man is quite right.

Pages and pages of two bad spelling mistakes! It's Independence - and more importantly Salmond. (Some of you may think he looks like a fish, but he's not one)


I'll still go with anally retentive as the conclusion tbh. Although OCD or just being a total div were the back up possibilities

Firstly its not an exam, its a fairly irrelevant forum on web site.

Secondly, if you KNOW what the word is then youre perfectly capable of grasping the gist of a post regardless of spelling mistakes or typos. And generating an entire post JUST to point out a typo is completely unrelated to the topic and therefore every single word typed in it is "incorrect" as it has no bearing whatsoever on the discussion

So one mispelt word narks you sooooooo much that you dedicate an entire post to whinging about it???

Dont get out much eh? So yeah, anal retentive seems pretty spot on tbh
 andy1961
Joined: 6/15/2006
Msg: 99
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Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 1/24/2012 11:26:24 AM

Secondly, if you KNOW what the word is then youre perfectly capable of grasping the gist of a post regardless of spelling mistakes or typos. And generating an entire post JUST to point out a typo is completely unrelated to the topic and therefore every single word typed in it is "incorrect" as it has no bearing whatsoever on the discussion

So one mispelt word narks you sooooooo much that you dedicate an entire post to whinging about it???

Dont get out much eh? So yeah, anal retentive seems pretty spot on tbh


Let me remind you that it was not me that "generated" an entire post to what you described as "typos" (they're spelling mistakes not typos), it was another poster. And you described his (correct) observation as anally retentive, which was nothing short of rude anyway.

I'll tell you what's at the very least "fairly relevant" and keeping in topic with this thread - a thread discussing Scottish Independence and probably the central character involved Alex Salmond - and that's the expectation that people with at least half a brain should be able to spell two of the most important words on the topic/thread!

Can you grasp that, or is it that you just don't care?

 Marquis_de_Michaelmas
Joined: 10/23/2008
Msg: 100
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Should Scotland vote yes for independEnce ?
Posted: 1/26/2012 9:25:53 AM
As the rest of us in the UK outside Scotland are unlikely to be given a vote on Scottish Independence, I think it might be prudent to begin a campaign to vote with our feet as it were: our wallets. We should boycott all Scottish Goods and services indefinitely.

I'll personally write to the MSP for Pittodrie to that effect with worlds similar to:

When you go I will send you a letter to Pittodrie!
Take a look at your exports from Anglesey to Yeovil.

Well
Broke off from my work the other day

I spent the evening thinking
About all the silliness that flows our way.
Across the border to UK

I wonder how it will go on when you reached the promised land.

When you go I will send you a letter to Pittodrie!
Take a look at your exports from Anglesey to Yeovil.

I've looked at the border
Tried hard to imagine
The way you felt the day you sailed
From UK to to Independence.
We should have held you
We should have told you

But you know our sense of timing
We always wait too long.

When you go I will send you a letter to Pittodrie!
Take a look at your exports from Anglesey to Yeovil.
Scotch Whiskey no more
Angus Beef no more

Tartans no more
Skye no more!
Scottish Shortbread no more
Irn Bru no more

Hewlett Packards no more
Cashmere no more!
Scottish Salmon no more
Haggis no more

Bag Pipes no more
St Andrews no more!
I wonder my blood
Will you ever return
To help us kick the life back to a old friend?
Do you not love her
I think we all tell you all about

Do we have to moan to the world to prove how much it hurts?

When you go I will send you a letter to Pittodrie!
Take a look at your exports from Anglesey to Yeovil.

Tweed no more
Scottish Scones no more

Lochness Monster no more
Sean Connery no more.
Dolly the Sheep no more
Robbie Burns no more

Gregory’s Girl no more
Franz Ferdinand no more.
HBOS no more
Auld Lang Syne no more

Scots Pine no more
Blair Castle no more.
Bay City Rollers no more
Billy Connolly no more

Brent Crude no more
Hollyrood no more.


p.s. this is light hearted banter created to bring laughter to its audience, not to cause offence to anyone living or deceased.

Probably wont happen any way now after the Spanish threat to block Independent Scotland joining EU because it might incitethe the break up of Spain inparticular The Basque region, and Spain doesn't recognise Kosovo for that same reason.
 Graffiti_Poet
Joined: 1/2/2011
Msg: 101
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Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 1/28/2012 12:45:18 AM
There isn't a great deal the UK Government can do to stop Scotland "running away with the oil" (the oil under Scottish waters anyway) if there is a yes vote for independence. Oil taxation is based on the jurisdiction from which it is extracted and sea boundaries in every country are prescribed according to international law.

That's why there's no disagreement about where the UK/Norwegian oil is divided and so would it be with an independent Scotland.


ScottishIan74,

It would be nice to think that there was no disagreement on the ownership of the oil resources but there is. In 1999, under a pretext of allocating fishing rights, Scotlands maritme boundary was moved from the straight line going east wards, in line with international accepted conventions, from Berwick on Tweed to a looping line reaching up to Carnoustie effectively moving around 15% of Scotlands oil and gas resources into English territorial waters.

This was an illegal action, unprecidented in modern times and was not discussed or debated in the Westminster parliament but approved only by the House of Lords and implemented in secret by a Labour / Lib Dem Scottish office.

As I noted in a previous post, anyone playing golf at St. Andrews and looking out to sea is now looking out at English territorial waters not Scottish following this theft of Scottish resources.........
 andy1961
Joined: 6/15/2006
Msg: 102
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Should Scotland vote yes for independEnce ?
Posted: 1/28/2012 10:12:36 PM
This thread is getting so tedious now that I can't wait for 2014 to come so that we can get it all over and done with!



 Graffiti_Poet
Joined: 1/2/2011
Msg: 103
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Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 1/29/2012 12:57:37 AM
The most recent poll since the question was set by the SNP has come out as 51% v 39% in favour of independence. As expected, the lack of any political or economic argument for Scotland to remain in the union and the insulting tone of the pro unionist is paying dividends for the Yes camp......

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/298664/Poll-Now-51-back-independence
 Graffiti_Poet
Joined: 1/2/2011
Msg: 104
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Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 1/30/2012 2:06:54 AM
hellynbackagain,

Your abhorance of nationalists is understandable and laudable but the Scottish nationalists are nothing like the hate filled bigots that support the nationalist movements south of the border. The SNP are about as diametrically opposed, as most of us are, to everything that the British and Irish nationalists stand for as it is possible to be.

The SNP are pro the EU and stand up for many people who are unfairly treated by the UKs disgraceful immigration system as was shown recently in their fight to allow an Indian women and her children, one of whom was born in Scotland, facing depotation to India to remain in Scotland following the death of her husband. They are campaigning to completely end the shameful deportation of widows and children.

The devolution of immigration control is one of the things the SNP has been long campaigning for to enable Scotlands immigration system to be fair and beneficial to Scotland an it's people which the current UK system is most definately not.

The SNP are an inclusive, tolerant and multiculturally diverse party who work for, and represent, all the peoples of Scotland regardless of their ethnic origins and are against everything that the heinous racists of the BNP, UKIP and the EDL stand for.....
 chasinglamely
Joined: 9/15/2007
Msg: 105
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Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 2/2/2012 6:50:05 AM
The trouble with the whole Scottish independence debate is that it comes down to money. The First Minister likes to talk about walking away with their fair share of national assets, such as gold, coal, gas, etc. But if he wants that, he needs to take their fair share of the national debt, too. And that's where this all gets very, very tricky.

Because the national deficit includes an offset against those Scottish assets we bailed out in the banking crisis. So Scotland needs to realise that they'd have to take ownership of RBS & HBOS from us. Then you work out the total UK debt and give them their fair share by population.

Now, this isn't even the most complex part. Scotland accounts for approximately 1/6th of the UK Population. However, it accounts for almost 1/5th of the national budget spend. So for Scots to be independent, they'd first lose several of the benefits to which they've become accustomed: No more free university, no more free prescriptions, a vastly reduced benefits pool. Or, they'd have to raise the basic rate of income tax to around 32.5% - either way, something has gotta break.

Personally, I'd be happy to let the Scots have their independence, and good luck to them when they get it. But now would be the absolute worst possible time. If we granted them independence today, we'd probably have to take them back within eighteen months. If we wait 10 years and slowly help them to stabilize their economy then maybe, just maybe, it'll be a viable option.
 badge73
Joined: 1/17/2009
Msg: 106
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Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 2/6/2012 7:33:19 AM
Scotland would not necessarily inherit the UK's triple A status rating if it went independent, credit rating agencies have warned.

Standard & Poor's, Moody's and Fitch have all hinted that a devolved Scotland should not expect to just be handed the top rating.

One agency told the Financial Times the rate could be a few notches below triple A.

There is also the question of where a lower-rated Scotland would borrow money from.

Most governments borrow from financial investors, including pensions funds. However, some funds will not lend to countries with ratings lower than triple A.

Scotland would also face a larger share of the UK's national debt.

Scotland's politicians have played down the ratings agencies warnings saying it is 'inaccurate' to suggest the country would not be granted a triple A status.

John Swinney, Scotland’s finance secretary, told the Financial Times the Scottish government had not sought opinion on the rating, but was confident of obtaining a triple A because 'it was difficult to deny the effectiveness and strength of the economy'.

In a report on the vulnerability of an independent Scotland, Jonathan Portes, director of the National Institute of Economic and Social Research, said an independent Scotland was 'not Greece, but not Norway either,' in financial terms.

The NIESR report read: 'Countries with external deficits and without central bank powers pay a premium on their government debt.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2097006/An-independent-Scotland-triple-A-status-rating-agencies-warn.html#ixzz1lcGiEJrb
 Cute_N_Fluffy
Joined: 3/19/2011
Msg: 107
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Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 2/6/2012 4:36:15 PM
It will never happen , both countries will still be part of europe and people will be free to move between them as they currently are.

Scotland will go independent , being that their is no one voted for by the Scotish in westminster, as was said the other week their are more Pandas in Scotland than conservative MP's.

And when Scotland go independent they will reset the Scotish teritorial waters off the east coast which were changed in the 70's without consulting the the Scotish so that more gas and oil would be in English waters.
 Graffiti_Poet
Joined: 1/2/2011
Msg: 108
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Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 2/13/2012 7:15:07 AM

The EU controls every aspect of legislation in the UK and every EU member state.


100% of UK laws are passed through Westminster following the time honoured process of first reading, second reading, commitee stage, report stage and then third reading. This happens in both the House of Commons and the House of Lords and is followed by consideration of amendments and then finally royal assent. Claims that the EU make or control any UK laws are completely baseless. Once Scotland is independant it will be interesting to see what, if any, changes to this process are needed as Scotland will not have a second chamber to perform the vital function of keeping the politicians in check..........
 Graffiti_Poet
Joined: 1/2/2011
Msg: 109
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Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 2/13/2012 7:47:23 AM
SGB2012,

I doubt the suggestion of a confederation would gain much support particularly if defence and foreign affairs are still controlled by Westminster. One of the greatest benefits to Scotland from independance will come from not having to send Scottish sons and daughters to kill and be killed in the illegal wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and Lybia that the UK has been engaged in over the last decade.

Nor I suspect will the new Scottish government be keen on sending anyone from Scotland to get slaughtered in any illegal and immoral war with Iran on behalf of Israel and America. Scotlands serving men and women will be for the defence of Scotland and will not used to undertake acts of aggression against other nations for either resources or religious reasons.......
 Marquis_de_Michaelmas
Joined: 10/23/2008
Msg: 110
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Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 2/13/2012 9:48:36 AM
I suspect the UK's defence forces and equipment will be moved back to the remaining UK and those Scottish serving men and women in the UK's armed Forces will be sent to kill and be killed in the illegal wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libyia.

A bit like Ireland's Army in the WWII, thousands or Irish soldiers enlisted in the British Forces and fought' though on their return after the war they were viciously victimised by those who sat by and did nothing!
 Graffiti_Poet
Joined: 1/2/2011
Msg: 111
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Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 2/13/2012 11:37:59 AM

Why do you believe that the Government of an independent Scotland will suddenly develop common sense or morality, concepts that are alien to those who wield power.


Principally because they have said so very clearly.

http://news.stv.tv/election-2011/249638-first-minister-an-independent-scotland-would-not-have-taken-part-in-illegal-iraq-war/
 Graffiti_Poet
Joined: 1/2/2011
Msg: 112
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Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 2/15/2012 12:40:22 PM
An interesting article in todays Guardian outlining some of the economic benefits to Scotland on independance...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/feb/15/independent-scotland-energy-fund-salmond


Alex Salmond said if Scotland had had full fiscal control since 1979, the nation would now have assets worth between £87bn and £117bn.

"Under independence we would make the best use of our unparalleled energy resources," he said. "We have 25% of Europe's tidal power potential, 25% of its offshore wind potential and 10% of its wave power potential – not bad for a nation with less than 1% of Europe's population.
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