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 Nutty_Bat
Joined: 9/14/2011
Msg: 383
Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?Page 15 of 20    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20)
You were warned in Post #1

 rosso27
Joined: 6/6/2007
Msg: 385
Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 1/24/2012 8:59:42 AM
No doubt that brings people onto the RBS bailout, amongst other banks. They quickly forget that the operations in trouble were independent subsidiaries of the RBS Group, registered and set up in London, operating according to English law, in English jurisdiction, and paying tax on profits under English classification.


Strangely though Alex Salmond seemed to think that these English laws were unduly onerous given his words in 2007:

"We are pledging a light-touch regulation suitable to a Scottish financial sector with its outstanding reputation for probity, as opposed to one like that in the UK, which absorbs huge amounts of management time in ‘gold-plated’ regulation.”

and let's hear what he had to say in 2008 regarding RBS and HBOS:

“of course we Scots are lucky enough to have the one of the best brands in the world .. Take financial services. With RBS and HBOS – two of the world’s biggest banks – Scotland has global leaders today, tomorrow and for the long-term."

Seems like he was falling over himself to drape the Saltire over them back then.........


And finally let’s not forget his warm words regarding everyone’s favourite banker Sir Fred Goodwin when RBS was doing what proved to be the disastrous deal to take over ABN:

"I want you to know I am watching events on the ABN front. It is in Scottish interests for RBS to be successful, and I would like to offer any assistance my office can provide. Good luck with the bid. Yours for Scotland, Alex."
 forum_moderator
Joined: 1/24/2003
Msg: 386
view profile
History
Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 1/24/2012 9:42:44 AM

For those who wish to carry on a civil discussion - feel free, but be advised yet again, of Post #1

 MikeWM
Joined: 2/7/2011
Msg: 387
view profile
History
Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 1/24/2012 10:12:59 AM

Anally retentive? No, actually, the man is quite right.

Pages and pages of two bad spelling mistakes! It's Independence - and more importantly Salmond. (Some of you may think he looks like a fish, but he's not one)


I'll still go with anally retentive as the conclusion tbh. Although OCD or just being a total div were the back up possibilities

Firstly its not an exam, its a fairly irrelevant forum on web site.

Secondly, if you KNOW what the word is then youre perfectly capable of grasping the gist of a post regardless of spelling mistakes or typos. And generating an entire post JUST to point out a typo is completely unrelated to the topic and therefore every single word typed in it is "incorrect" as it has no bearing whatsoever on the discussion

So one mispelt word narks you sooooooo much that you dedicate an entire post to whinging about it???

Dont get out much eh? So yeah, anal retentive seems pretty spot on tbh
 ScottishIain74
Joined: 9/11/2011
Msg: 388
Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 1/24/2012 10:59:54 AM
The latest (perhaps sign of desperation in the "no" camp) is the suggestion that Orkney and Shetland should remain part of the UK if a majority of people there vote against independence in the referendum. An amendment to the Scotland Act has been tabled in the House of Lords (probably sniffing the oil) to this end. As well as Rockall which Denmark and the Faroes also have claim to.

I don't see this amendment going anywhere because you would have to apply the same rule to every local authority area in Scotland. The result could be a Scotland split in two - much like Ireland. Also just because a majority of people in a particular region may vote against independence, it doesn't necessarily follow that they would not accept independence if that is what the country as a whole chooses.

I wonder how the Lord who tabled this amendment would respond to divergent regional results in England if there is ever a referendum on the EU.
 andy1961
Joined: 6/15/2006
Msg: 389
view profile
History
Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 1/24/2012 11:26:24 AM

Secondly, if you KNOW what the word is then youre perfectly capable of grasping the gist of a post regardless of spelling mistakes or typos. And generating an entire post JUST to point out a typo is completely unrelated to the topic and therefore every single word typed in it is "incorrect" as it has no bearing whatsoever on the discussion

So one mispelt word narks you sooooooo much that you dedicate an entire post to whinging about it???

Dont get out much eh? So yeah, anal retentive seems pretty spot on tbh


Let me remind you that it was not me that "generated" an entire post to what you described as "typos" (they're spelling mistakes not typos), it was another poster. And you described his (correct) observation as anally retentive, which was nothing short of rude anyway.

I'll tell you what's at the very least "fairly relevant" and keeping in topic with this thread - a thread discussing Scottish Independence and probably the central character involved Alex Salmond - and that's the expectation that people with at least half a brain should be able to spell two of the most important words on the topic/thread!

Can you grasp that, or is it that you just don't care?

 oncearoundthesun
Joined: 11/10/2011
Msg: 390
Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 1/24/2012 6:05:33 PM

Strangely though Alex Salmond seemed to think that these English laws were unduly onerous given his words in 2007:

"We are pledging a light-touch regulation suitable to a Scottish financial sector with its outstanding reputation for probity, as opposed to one like that in the UK, which absorbs huge amounts of management time in ‘gold-plated’ regulation.”

and let's hear what he had to say in 2008 regarding RBS and HBOS:

“of course we Scots are lucky enough to have the one of the best brands in the world .. Take financial services. With RBS and HBOS – two of the world’s biggest banks – Scotland has global leaders today, tomorrow and for the long-term."

Seems like he was falling over himself to drape the Saltire over them back then.........


And finally let’s not forget his warm words regarding everyone’s favourite banker Sir Fred Goodwin when RBS was doing what proved to be the disastrous deal to take over ABN:

"I want you to know I am watching events on the ABN front. It is in Scottish interests for RBS to be successful, and I would like to offer any assistance my office can provide. Good luck with the bid. Yours for Scotland, Alex."


He hasn't ever denied that the banks have Scottish roots, even now, and I'm not sure why offering support to a major Scottish company is a problem?

Even if Scotland had changed regulations, the major failings would still have been the independent subsidiaries operating in London.
 Waynie_Vunderba
Joined: 11/20/2011
Msg: 391
Should Scotland vote yes for independance ?
Posted: 1/24/2012 6:16:42 PM
Personally, I'm not particularly bothered whether they vote yes, or no. I do like the Scots and I wish them all the very best with whichever way they decide to go with this.

Ta dar!
 qsound
Joined: 12/29/2010
Msg: 392
Should Scotland vote yes for independEnce ?
Posted: 1/25/2012 8:41:48 AM

I don't see Croatia or Montonegro begging for a reformed Yugoslavia, and I don't see Estonia, Georgia or Kazakhstan praying for a return of the Soviet Union.


They are hardly shining examples of break ups. Warlords with guns dictated that the former Yugoslavia broke up, everyone had to agree with the warlords or you get shot. And many people pointlessly lost their lives in the wrangles and disputes that occurred in the chaotic and uncontrolled break up of the former Soviet Union.

One peaceful dissolution, that of the former Czech Republic was more politician inspired than people led, (around a third were favoured full dissolution). Even then there was 2 years of intense negotiations not only between themselves but with the outside world too, to bring it about. And then were still snags.

But the Czech Republic was a comparitively young union, between two distinct cultures that is nowhere near as integrated as you would get with 300 years of the union between the constituent nations of Britain.

You also mention Australia and USA, both effective union governments. You cant say that each of the states of those countries are not proud of their local cultural identity, but are still part of a union.
 oncearoundthesun
Joined: 11/10/2011
Msg: 393
Should Scotland vote yes for independEnce ?
Posted: 1/25/2012 9:18:05 AM

They are hardly shining examples of break ups. Warlords with guns dictated that the former Yugoslavia broke up, everyone had to agree with the warlords or you get shot. And many people pointlessly lost their lives in the wrangles and disputes that occurred in the chaotic and uncontrolled break up of the former Soviet Union.

One peaceful dissolution, that of the former Czech Republic was more politician inspired than people led, (around a third were favoured full dissolution). Even then there was 2 years of intense negotiations not only between themselves but with the outside world too, to bring it about. And then were still snags.

But the Czech Republic was a comparitively young union, between two distinct cultures that is nowhere near as integrated as you would get with 300 years of the union between the constituent nations of Britain.

You also mention Australia and USA, both effective union governments. You cant say that each of the states of those countries are not proud of their local cultural identity, but are still part of a union.


Yugoslavia may have descended into violence, fair enough, but the breakup of the Soviet Union was a lot more ordered than you think. Numerous referendums in each of the Soviet Republics, in which they all voted to secede from the USSR and declare independence. A mixture of economic, social, ethnic and historical tensions came together, issues that had gone unresolved for decades. To say it was chaotic is highly misleading, the events afterwards may have led to turmoil, but the process to independence and then dissolution of the Soviet Union happened over the course of years, not days.

The Czechoslovakian example in turn is a bit misleading, as they were formed from the ashes of the Austroa-Hungarian Empire, and throughout there was a recognised difference between Czech Republic and Slovakia, to they extent the Slovaks had their own assemblies, and they were both technically SSRs in a voluntary union. Peaceful aye, but as with my previous examples, none are clamouring to return to it.

As for being proud of local identity, much as Australia and USA, you can't say that doesn't happen in Scotland already. People from different cities across the country hold different accents and vocabulary, different histories, different cuisine even. Just because they're not listed as states, doesn't mean its not a form of union. We have council regions, which each have a managed budget. No country is homogenous and contains one identical belief throughout. The difference is Australia and USA wouldn't in a million years think of begging to rejoin the UK. It can even be argued that the USA went on to independence because they wanted to be British, but weren't treated as equals by Westminster, and who refused to give them equal participation in the running of the Empire.

Breakups aren't always peaceful, though I think we can safely say no blood will be spilled when Scotland votes for independence, and dare I say no regrets. The only acrimony is likely to come from Westminster politicans.
 qsound
Joined: 12/29/2010
Msg: 394
Should Scotland vote yes for independEnce ?
Posted: 1/25/2012 12:09:15 PM
oncearoundthesun, much obliged for your reply.

The various sudden springing up of referendums of independence of the members of the Soviet Union were bitterly disputed and fought affairs with the various tensions you refer to fuelling conflict to the point of violence. The most dangerous place to be at that time was to be the main TV station as opposing supporters engaged in a power struggle for its control. In fact I can’t think of any of the independence referendums that had not been accompanied by bloodshed. I do however agree with you that the dissolution of the Soviet Union took place over years, and as time progresses things became more orderly.

I also agree with you that it is safe to say that there won’t be blood spilled over any separation if it comes to it. The English and Scottish absolutely love each other, when you compare with Yugoslavia. (I guess it helps not having jingoistic politicians back up by heavily armed warlords to enforce their way).

Czechoslovakia was a comparatively young union (albeit two distinct partners whose main common ground was being united under the old Austro-Hungarian empire) going back to the end of the First World War, so doesn’t have the same integration as a 300 year or so old union. So there isn’t as much history to get in the way of separation. Even so popular opinion was equally split between tighter union, loose union or total separation. Ultimately the politicians took the decision to dissolve, and what they had done very well was to take their time to work everything out they needed to, before they came to implementing independence.

The point I am making about Australia and the USA is that they are examples of self-governing entities operating within an umbrella of a union. Each Australian state for example, have the powers of a Government in their own right, raising money, issuing bonds and gilts (last time I looked at credit ratings, considered like a Government), yet come under the union of the Australian Government. Individual states of the USA have a great deal of autonomy, yet come under the union of the Federal Government.
You are right, I can’t, won’t and never even dreamed of saying that being proud of local identity doesn’t happen in Scotland. What I was saying was that individual parts of a union, examples are the Australian and USA states, are equally proud of their local identity, be self-governing and yet are still under a union. In this case, by union I mean the Australian and US Federal Governments, not UK.
Full blown separation isn’t the only solution to self-governance.
 oncearoundthesun
Joined: 11/10/2011
Msg: 395
Should Scotland vote yes for independEnce ?
Posted: 1/25/2012 12:33:11 PM

The various sudden springing up of referendums of independence of the members of the Soviet Union were bitterly disputed and fought affairs with the various tensions you refer to fuelling conflict to the point of violence. The most dangerous place to be at that time was to be the main TV station as opposing supporters engaged in a power struggle for its control. In fact I can’t think of any of the independence referendums that had not been accompanied by bloodshed. I do however agree with you that the dissolution of the Soviet Union took place over years, and as time progresses things became more orderly.

I also agree with you that it is safe to say that there won’t be blood spilled over any separation if it comes to it. The English and Scottish absolutely love each other, when you compare with Yugoslavia. (I guess it helps not having jingoistic politicians back up by heavily armed warlords to enforce their way).

Czechoslovakia was a comparatively young union (albeit two distinct partners whose main common ground was being united under the old Austro-Hungarian empire) going back to the end of the First World War, so doesn’t have the same integration as a 300 year or so old union. So there isn’t as much history to get in the way of separation. Even so popular opinion was equally split between tighter union, loose union or total separation. Ultimately the politicians took the decision to dissolve, and what they had done very well was to take their time to work everything out they needed to, before they came to implementing independence.

The point I am making about Australia and the USA is that they are examples of self-governing entities operating within an umbrella of a union. Each Australian state for example, have the powers of a Government in their own right, raising money, issuing bonds and gilts (last time I looked at credit ratings, considered like a Government), yet come under the union of the Australian Government. Individual states of the USA have a great deal of autonomy, yet come under the union of the Federal Government.
You are right, I can’t, won’t and never even dreamed of saying that being proud of local identity doesn’t happen in Scotland. What I was saying was that individual parts of a union, examples are the Australian and USA states, are equally proud of their local identity, be self-governing and yet are still under a union. In this case, by union I mean the Australian and US Federal Governments, not UK.
Full blown separation isn’t the only solution to self-governance.


The Soviet examples are different in each Republic. There were some conflicts, for example at the TV tower in Lithuania, though it's disputed whether this order came from the Central Committee, or independent operations carried out by the security services. Other examples, such as in Central Asia and Nagorno-Karabakh, could have occured even without independence referenda.

Going further, the last referendum was in Southern Sudan, and there were some conflicts. I don't know enough about those, but I presume the North instigated at least some of those.

There has been a tendency for independence movements to turn violent, mostly in opposition to a controlling force. The UK is different in that neither side would be willing to make it a violent conflict, which in some ways is unique. Greenland and Czechoslovakia aside, and maybe some tiny countries I've never heard of. However it does have the potential for a domino effect, which is even more interesting than the debate itself over here. Would it instigate confidence and attempts by various nations and regions throughout Europe to do the same? In Spain, Belgium, the rest of the UK, maybe even Ukraine, or going further to recognition of places like Transdniestr. Interesting times ahead!

I think we could probably carry on this discussion and make some great points, but I fear we'd be taking it away from the original point!
 ScottishIain74
Joined: 9/11/2011
Msg: 396
Should Scotland vote yes for independEnce ?
Posted: 1/25/2012 12:53:23 PM


Full blown separation isn’t the only solution to self-governance.


I agree and more needs to be done to clarity what this "Devo Max" (though I'd say the term is a bit of a misnomer ) is all about.

No one (in the political sphere at least) seems to have seriously put forward the idea of a confederation of sovereign states in the British Isles. What I mean by that would be Scottish, English, Welsh, etc, parliaments are all sovereign but have agreed to pool sovereignty over certain specified areas (e.g. defence, currency and aspects foreign policy). We would also have a shared parliament that is given its authority by the home nations' parliaments respectively. Perhaps along the lines of how the E.U. functions and essentially the reverse of the current Scottish Parliment which is a statutory body given whatever powers westminster deems fit and can be suspended or abolished any time the UK government wants. This would probably need a proper written constitution with limits on the powers of the federal government (along the lines of the US bill of rights) and clearly formalised procedures for how a member nation would secede in future if it chose to do so.

EU membership is of course an issue but this option should be given serious consideration for when the Euro collapses (and it will sooner or later) and ultimately they EU itself ceases to exist.

One thing that is certain (even leaving aside the West Lothian question) is that the status quo is not sustainable and returning to the pre-devolution arrangement is clearly not an option either. I think rather than bickering over the referendum dates and questions, politicians of all persuasions (and particluarly Cameron and Milliband) need to start looking at how we move forward with constitutional change. Society as a whole needs to get involved because this referendum could easily descend into a contest of egos between Salmond and Cameron.
 oncearoundthesun
Joined: 11/10/2011
Msg: 397
Should Scotland vote yes for independEnce ?
Posted: 1/25/2012 1:01:21 PM

No one (in the political sphere at least) seems to have seriously put forward the idea of a confederation of sovereign states in the British Isles. What I mean by that would be Scottish, English, Welsh, etc, parliaments are all sovereign but have agreed to pool sovereignty over certain specified areas (e.g. defence, currency and aspects foreign policy). We would also have a shared parliament that is given its authority by the home nations' parliaments respectively.


I think the problem with this aspect is part of the problem with the current arrangements. If the federal system still retained voting numbers based on population, then pooled sovereignity is still skewed towards one country. One of the issues at the moment is that too much focus is put on the South of England, where a large amount of the population lives. England alone could outvote all the other countries on any issue, regardless of whether the other three didn't want it.

Equally, if you went to one country = 25% of the vote on shared issues, undoubtedly England would become frustrated that three smaller countries could vote against it on everything and prevent whatever they propose.
 garyzac
Joined: 9/25/2008
Msg: 398
Should Scotland vote yes for independEnce ?
Posted: 1/25/2012 1:05:05 PM
Perhaps Salmond is wary of joining the euro?

Does the delay in the referendum give the euro time to recover?

After all, there is a suggestion that Scotland will not be able to retain sterling (not Stirling, lol) should independance occur. Where would that leave Scotland? No currency, and at the mercy of the euro.

And why retain the Queen as Head of State? Why have the monarch of another country with which you have no ties whatsover as your HoS? It defies logic. It's like Holland asking Sarko to be its HoS.

I think it's a ploy by Salmond to get the Scottish royalists onside with his plan. "Yes, we are independent, but Betty is still there, yay!"

The whole thing is a dog's breakfast.
 oncearoundthesun
Joined: 11/10/2011
Msg: 399
Should Scotland vote yes for independEnce ?
Posted: 1/25/2012 1:09:11 PM

Perhaps Salmond is wary of joining the euro?

Does the delay in the referendum give the euro time to recover?

After all, there is a suggestion that Scotland will not be able to retain sterling (not Stirling, lol) should independance occur. Where would that leave Scotland? No currency, and at the mercy of the euro.

And why retain the Queen as Head of State? Why have the monarch of another country with which you have no ties whatsover as your HoS? It defies logic. It's like Holland asking Sarko to be its HoS.

I think it's a ploy by Salmond to get the Scottish royalists onside with his plan. "Yes, we are independent, but Betty is still there, yay!"

The whole thing is a dog's breakfast.


I'm anti-monarchy myself, but the Queen is the monarch of both countries at the moment. the Union of the Crowns came before the Treaty of Union. Although getting rid of her would be nice, I'm pragmatic enough to realise that it's an issue that can be settled after independence. No particular rush.

As for sterling, you can't stop another country using it, can you imagine them trying to enforce it?! The only downside is not being able to control interest rates etc, but it would be far better to continue using it until things have settled down, then consider either the Euro, retaining Sterling, or moving on to a Scottish pound.
 pauline2012
Joined: 11/28/2011
Msg: 400
Should Scotland vote yes for independEnce ?
Posted: 1/25/2012 1:09:14 PM
If Scotland went it's own way the last thing I would want is the Queen as the head of state.

I dont know enough about sterling to comment but we have Scottish pound notes up here, or did, don't think they are currency anymore.

I'd prefer not to join the Euro, but I really don't care one way or another about Betty

Off with my head.In fact if I knew Betty was going to have bugger all to with Scotland after devolution I'd vote ten times over, in fact Id join the SNP tomorrow (joke).
 ScottishIain74
Joined: 9/11/2011
Msg: 401
Should Scotland vote yes for independEnce ?
Posted: 1/25/2012 1:14:27 PM

And why retain the Queen as Head of State? Why have the monarch of another country with which you have no ties whatsover as your HoS? It defies logic. It's like Holland asking Sarko to be its HoS.

Maybe ask the Aussies that one. After all they had a referendum and voted to keep her rather than become a republic.

Besides, isn't Liz Saxe-Coburg Germany anyway?



After all, there is a suggestion that Scotland will not be able to retain sterling (not Stirling, lol) should independance occur. Where would that leave Scotland? No currency, and at the mercy of the euro.


Well unless shops in Scotland were banned from accepting sterling notes (something only the Scottish parliament could do if it was independent) I don't see how we could be prevented from retaining sterling. Many countries peg their currency to the US dollar for example (which frankly I'd prefer to joining the Euro). Scottish banknotes maybe won't be legal tender in England but at least that would close a very old debate - "that's legal tender" was a phrase invented for using Scottish notes in the rest of the UK. Apparently there are pubs in Glasgow that currently accept Euros (probably for the benefit of Celtic fans travelling from Ireland). When I was in Egypt on holiday anything billed to a credit card was transacted in US dollars as that is (or was) the law there.
 garyzac
Joined: 9/25/2008
Msg: 402
Should Scotland vote yes for independEnce ?
Posted: 1/25/2012 1:19:21 PM
Maybe ask the Aussies that one. After all they had a referendum and voted to keep her rather than become a republic.

Besides, isn't Liz Saxe-Coburg Germany anyway?




The Aussies are nothing to do with the topic, and they are not in the same position with regard to England as Scotland, so they cannot even be used as an analogy.

And Betty is the Queen of England and also Scotland.....the fact that she has German ancestors is totally irrelevant.

 Marquis_de_Michaelmas
Joined: 10/23/2008
Msg: 403
view profile
History
Should Scotland vote yes for independEnce ?
Posted: 1/26/2012 9:25:53 AM
As the rest of us in the UK outside Scotland are unlikely to be given a vote on Scottish Independence, I think it might be prudent to begin a campaign to vote with our feet as it were: our wallets. We should boycott all Scottish Goods and services indefinitely.

I'll personally write to the MSP for Pittodrie to that effect with worlds similar to:

When you go I will send you a letter to Pittodrie!
Take a look at your exports from Anglesey to Yeovil.

Well
Broke off from my work the other day

I spent the evening thinking
About all the silliness that flows our way.
Across the border to UK

I wonder how it will go on when you reached the promised land.

When you go I will send you a letter to Pittodrie!
Take a look at your exports from Anglesey to Yeovil.

I've looked at the border
Tried hard to imagine
The way you felt the day you sailed
From UK to to Independence.
We should have held you
We should have told you

But you know our sense of timing
We always wait too long.

When you go I will send you a letter to Pittodrie!
Take a look at your exports from Anglesey to Yeovil.
Scotch Whiskey no more
Angus Beef no more

Tartans no more
Skye no more!
Scottish Shortbread no more
Irn Bru no more

Hewlett Packards no more
Cashmere no more!
Scottish Salmon no more
Haggis no more

Bag Pipes no more
St Andrews no more!
I wonder my blood
Will you ever return
To help us kick the life back to a old friend?
Do you not love her
I think we all tell you all about

Do we have to moan to the world to prove how much it hurts?

When you go I will send you a letter to Pittodrie!
Take a look at your exports from Anglesey to Yeovil.

Tweed no more
Scottish Scones no more

Lochness Monster no more
Sean Connery no more.
Dolly the Sheep no more
Robbie Burns no more

Gregory’s Girl no more
Franz Ferdinand no more.
HBOS no more
Auld Lang Syne no more

Scots Pine no more
Blair Castle no more.
Bay City Rollers no more
Billy Connolly no more

Brent Crude no more
Hollyrood no more.


p.s. this is light hearted banter created to bring laughter to its audience, not to cause offence to anyone living or deceased.

Probably wont happen any way now after the Spanish threat to block Independent Scotland joining EU because it might incitethe the break up of Spain inparticular The Basque region, and Spain doesn't recognise Kosovo for that same reason.
 Just_for_you_2012
Joined: 1/23/2012
Msg: 404
Should Scotland vote yes for independEnce ?
Posted: 1/26/2012 9:30:11 AM
a big YES from me.
our government has let us down big time, just imagine if Scotland didnt want to be part of the EU ripoff, ....

they become independent from the rest of the UK, and their economy florishes as they are not paying into a system that does not give back what it gets.

also while they want to get out of the UK, i do not think they wish to be out of the Commonwealth.
 oncearoundthesun
Joined: 11/10/2011
Msg: 405
Should Scotland vote yes for independEnce ?
Posted: 1/26/2012 10:13:01 AM

Probably wont happen any way now after the Spanish threat to block Independent Scotland joining EU because it might incitethe the break up of Spain inparticular The Basque region, and Spain doesn't recognise Kosovo for that same reason.


The Spanish government denied ever saying this, as in a statement at a press conference in Brussels on Tuesday, the Foreign Minister (Mr. García-Margallo) said that there was no truth at all in the Independent's report. No surprise that it's a London-based newspaper!

In any case, Spain recently recognised South Sudan as an independent country, after the people there voted to declare independence from the North. The stance the Spanish have on Kosovo is that was a UDI, rather than a referendum, and so they don't acknowledge that they had the authority to break from Serbia. They have no problems recognising democratic declarations of independence.
 qsound
Joined: 12/29/2010
Msg: 406
Should Jason Scotland vote yes for independEnce ?
Posted: 1/26/2012 3:41:19 PM

I think the problem with this aspect is part of the problem with the current arrangements. If the federal system still retained voting numbers based on population, then pooled sovereignity is still skewed towards one country. One of the issues at the moment is that too much focus is put on the South of England, where a large amount of the population lives. England alone could outvote all the other countries on any issue, regardless of whether the other three didn't want it.


Depends on the nature of the system of course, there are variations.

On current practices:

This would only be applicable to pre-agreed UK wide which shall be determined by the voting of the whole of the UK MPs. If it is of concern of all UK citizens equally, then it is only fair that it is decided by MPs as a whole. The one thing I would add to it is to make it a free vote at law; any attempt at enforcing a three-line whip or otherwise by threat or enticement prejudice the free vote shall be an indictable offence. The offence shall carry a maximum sentence of 15 years imprisonment.

The skewed argument is only really an issue when voting is just a numbers game; left to a free vote it can’t assumed necessarily that all English constituent MPs would all agree with each other, nor can it be assumed they would automatically disagree with every other part of the UK. And the bottom line is that all elected MPs represent about the same number of constituents. Overall would still be fair.
The alternative might be to have UK wide issues Governed by Committee with equal representatives of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. But then you have a break of link with constituents.
 qsound
Joined: 12/29/2010
Msg: 407
Should Jason Scotland vote yes for independEnce ?
Posted: 1/26/2012 3:53:20 PM

The Aussies are nothing to do with the topic, and they are not in the same position with regard to England as Scotland, so they cannot even be used as an analogy.


You asked the question about retaining the Queen as the Head of State. The Aussies are a perfectly relevant example and legitimate analogy.
 oncearoundthesun
Joined: 11/10/2011
Msg: 408
Should Jason Scotland vote yes for independEnce ?
Posted: 1/26/2012 4:28:07 PM

The one thing I would add to it is to make it a free vote at law; any attempt at enforcing a three-line whip or otherwise by threat or enticement prejudice the free vote shall be an indictable offence. The offence shall carry a maximum sentence of 15 years imprisonment.


I can see that working in an idealistic way, but if a few go against the grain of the party, they'll be sidelined in future. No-one outwith experienced or renegade members will go against what the leaders of the parties have said is their stance.

In any case, you also have the potential for problems with the amount of MPs. Presumably in a federal system, each country decides how many seats they have, or the size of constituencies. Scotland has 59 MPs, but 129 MPs. Should they continue with the latter, their representation would be massively increased. What if they then made 600 constituencies? Unrealistic, I know, but used to prove the point.

The only other way would be to tie it into a certain amount of votes per population, but if that doesn't match to representatives, how do you decide the opinion within each country, before taking it to the UK level?

I can see where you're going with it, and not trying to just pick holes, but it's not as simple as it seems from the outset!
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