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 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 276
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Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban FighterPage 12 of 15    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15)

Faisal Rauf and the other affiliates of the Muslim Brotherhood have already tried to desecrate the memories of the 3,000 innocent people who were murdered in New York by building a mosque near the scene of the war crime. If there had been enough of them left to fill a grave, he might as well have spat on it. And what did this president do? He gave a speech defending these curs, to which he invited members of groups affiliated with that same Muslim Brotherhood.

It has always been the policy of the United States to respect the laws of war. In the rare cases where members of the military have violated those laws, they have been punished for it under U.S. laws. These include all the statutes Congress has enacted to codify the terms of the Hague and Geneva Conventions.

The same cannot be said for shariah-loving jihadists who believe it's their holy mission to kill, convert, or enslave everyone else and rule the world. The violence these savages engage in consists of nothing *but* war crimes--indiscriminately and purposely murdering civilians all over the world; fighting out of uniform, often outside their own countries; using the uniforms of the U.S. and its allies to disguise attacks; firing from places of worship, hospitals, schools, and crowds of civilians; piracy, including air piracy; kidnapping civilians, often for ransom; feigning surrender to gain an advantage; using ambulances as military vehicles; taking hostages; using civilians as shields; torturing and murdering uniformed servicemen they've captured; and all the rest of the dismal catalog.

Men who make war this way put themselves at war with the civilized world. They forfeit all the rights legitimate soldiers have under the laws of war. They deserve no mercy, and yet U.S. forces are required by our own laws, most of them in the Uniform Code of Military Justice, to treat the ones they capture fairly.

If success in this war did not depend so heavily on intelligence, U.S. forces would not have needed to capture the thousands of jihadists they have--most of whom have been released. They would have been perfectly within their rights to have killed anyone who showed hostile intent, or even anyone who didn't have a good excuse for being armed and within shooting distance.

Muslim jihadists made an insane blunder when they attacked the United States, and millions of Muslims in countries around the world which openly or covertly support them are very lucky this is a civilized nation. If it were not, most of them would have gone up in smoke years ago, taking their intolerant, supremacist vision of a worldwide caliphate with them. Imagine Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan or Stalin's Soviet Union having the weapons the U.S. has, and not using them to wipe out an implacable enemy which could not retaliate in kind.

/big snip/

What I wrote is accurate, and that video does not rebut any of it.

To the extent your xenophobic diatribe occasionally connects with real events it has already been 'rebutted'. Sometimes years ago.
But otherwise, and in general, it's neither possible or practical to 'rebut' irrational made-up fantasies because there's nothing to 'rebut' since no evidence supports them.

That's why I labeled the video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftcvb0DyIhI) a response, not a 'rebuttal'.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 277
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Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/23/2012 3:42:43 PM
Wow. Who wrote that? I sure hope it wasn't a Canadian, because s/he hates America and everything it stands for more than bin Laden did.


I wrote it, as you know. There is no basis for your false and offensive conclusion about my feelings for my country, except in your imagination. But then the truth seems to confuse you--you have made a habit of misstating facts. Without getting into a long discussion of how First Amendment freedoms affect land-use law, I'll just say people don't get to build churches wherever they like.

The attempt to cast the "Cordoba Initiative," aka the Ground Zero Mosque, as a question of free exercise of religion is just the kind of "lawfare" Islamists have learned to wage. It's part of da'wa, or proselytizing for shariah. Da'wa is waging jihad by non-violent and deceptive means. Rauf used the term in the title of the foreign edition of his book, but then slyly omitted it from the U.S. publication.

That publication was sponsored by the ISNA and IIIT, two of the North American affiliates of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood. They are among the groups identified as such in a 1991 policy document written by a close associate of Yussuf Qaradawi, probably the world's most influential Sunni Islamist cleric and himself closely associated with the Brotherhood.

This document, which I've cited in other posts, was evidence in the federal trial of the Holy Land Foundation, a front created to divert more than $30 million in "charity" to another Muslim Brotherhood creation, HAMAS. The ISNA, IIIT, and the other fronts listed in that document were named as unindicted coconspirators in the HLF trial. The trial resulted in convictions which were upheld on appeal just last month. The poster who dismissed other statements of mine as fantasies probably also thinks U.S. federal courts admit fantasies as evidence.

The First Amendment doesn't protect the use other parts of a building which contains a church for unlawful or seditious purposes. You don't get to store Semtex and assault rifles and RPG's in the basement (as has been done in more than one mosque) and then denounce agents for trampling your freedom of religion when they raid they place. The outsize scale would leave most of the proposed building for other uses, even after the mosque, exhibit rooms, and all the recreational facilities are accounted for. Rauf and other Islamists have been involved for years in an effort to identify countries which are especially fertile ground for spreading shariah. There's be plenty of office space for continuing that project.

Knowing that the same shady people behind the Cordoba Initiative earlier funded and created the similarly vast Dar al Hijrah complex in Falls Church, Virginia, and knowing that Anwar al-Awlaki, a senior Al Qaeda recruiter recently killed in a drone strike in Yemen, was an imam there in 2000-2001, and knowing that he was the mentor for two of the 9/11 murderers, who followed him from San Diego and attended his sermons, and knowing that Nidal Hasan, the Fort Hood jihadist, was also a member of the flock, and that his old imam Awlaki years later wrote him from Yemen encouraging him to commit his murders, and knowing other known jihadists have been associated with Dar al Hijrah, I am anything but confident that the Ground Zero complex would be nothing more than the benign mosque-cum-cultural center it's being sold as.

And yet when Mr. Obama gave his stirring speech in defense of the Ground Zero Mosque as a red-white-and blue exercise of our First Amendment freedoms, he invited members of the IIIT and ISNA. And CAIR, the Muslim Brotherhood's public relations and legal defense arm in the U.S., has practically become mainstream and respectable under this administration. I hope Mr. Gingrich or some other prominent figure will call on CAIR to defend its official positions on shariah and the treatment of women. They are fit only for a primitive, savage time and have no place in the modern world.


Completely ignoring half the argument because you don't like the author is a recipe for being ill informed.


I don't doubt for a moment that you know just how to be ill-informed.
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 278
Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/23/2012 3:56:45 PM

The attempt to cast the "Cordoba Initiative," aka the Ground Zero Mosque, as a question of free exercise of religion is just the kind of "lawfare" Islamists have learned to wage. It's part of da'wa, or proselytizing for shariah. Da'wa is waging jihad by non-violent and deceptive means. Rauf used the term in the title of the foreign edition of his book, but then slyly omitted it from the U.S. publication.

O Blessed, Blessed Be The Burlington Coat Factory, how dare they desecrate your hollowed ground with a 13 story community center.





...I hope Mr. Gingrich or some other prominent figure will call on CAIR to defend its official positions on shariah and the treatment of women. They are fit only for a primitive, savage time and have no place in the modern world.

Yes old Newt could teach them a thing or two with what to do with your b*tch when she gets all cancery or does not want to let you fool around.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 279
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Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/23/2012 4:04:21 PM

The attempt to cast the "Cordoba Initiative," aka the Ground Zero Mosque, as a question of free exercise of religion is just the kind of "lawfare" Islamists have learned to wage.
(etc etc )
(my brackets)
Straw-manning is just the kind of corrupt debating technique those with no real argument have learned to present in place of the rational and/or coherent arguments they lack.

"A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man


And yet when Mr. Obama gave his stirring speech in defense of the Ground Zero Mosque...

There is no "Ground Zero Mosque.", and there was never a proposal to build one.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 280
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Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/23/2012 4:16:21 PM

There is no "Ground Zero Mosque.", and there was never a proposal to build one.


Have to agree with this one. Two blocks away. There was never going to be a Mosque built where the towers stood. Calling it the ground zero mosque caused the controversy.
 Bladesmith81801
Joined: 10/30/2010
Msg: 281
Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/23/2012 5:11:23 PM
And it was called that by a well documented hater of all things Islam and general all around firebrand. She's a spewer of hate and little else.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 282
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Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/23/2012 6:45:56 PM
The New York Times?


NYTimes.com – Slide Show (December 8, 2010)
A House of Worship Near Ground Zero
A five-story building at 45 Park Place, two blocks north of the World Trade Center site, now houses a Muslim prayer space. Burlington Coat Factory operated a store there until Sept. 11, 2001, but it had been vacant since then, until a group of Muslims bought it in July.

Hudson New York
Mosque At the World Trade Center: Muslim Renewal Or Insult Near Ground Zero
by Youssef M. Ibrahim
December 16, 2009 at 5:00 am
An identified group with unknown sponsors has purchased building steps away from where the WorldTrade Center once stood—to turn it into potentially one of the largest New York City mosques.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 283
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Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/23/2012 7:09:02 PM

There is no "Ground Zero Mosque.", and there was never a proposal to build one.


I'm going to call the proposed Ground Zero Mosque just what it is. Apologists for Islamic extremism can call it whatever they want. It is a calculated show of Islamist supremacy and contempt for a hallowed site, just as surely as if a group of Japanese supremacists were to build a memorial to Japan's WWII conquests within view of the Arizona Memorial.

I notice you couldn't deny that the Muslim Brotherhood's affiliates in North America supported the Dar al Hijrah complex--which has been a haven for jihadists--and are now supporting the so-called "Cordoba Initiative." I'm sure you'd like to deny the connections among the Muslim Brotherhood, ISNA, IIIT, Hamas ("the wing of the Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine," says its charter), Dar al Hijrah, and the proposed Ground Zero Mosque--if you knew anything about them--but they have been proven.

I don't want to get into more details on this here, since it's tangential to the thread topic. I have lots more documentation of it, with specific facts, dates, and names. Earlier, I posted links to the documents used in the Holy Land Foundation trial. If anyone is interested in the truth about Faisal Rauf et al. and the Ground Zero Mosque, as opposed to the falsehoods leftists and their Islamist buddies are peddling, they can contact me directly.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 284
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Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/23/2012 11:05:53 PM
Yes, the bars, sex shops and strip clubs closer to "ground zero" are much more "merican" in honoring the victims. To be true patridiots, the best way to honor the Constitution is to violate first amendment rights of select citizens.

http://www.csmonitor.com/Commentary/Opinion/2010/0824/Sex-shop-and-strip-clubs-near-ground-zero-show-double-standard-over-Park51
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 285
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Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/24/2012 12:01:55 AM

they should be allowed to build it because the constitution says so.


It does? Can you cite me to that passage? Or are you making a legally informed interpretation of the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment? Which Supreme Court decisions are you relying on, I wonder?

Would the Constitution require a city to allow a multi-story brothel just because the bottom two floors were devoted to a "Church of Sensual Healing," with a madam preaching, and donations expected from the flock? Would it be OK if its rooms were to be used for private "sensual therapy" sessions with the resident priestesses?

I never claimed these curs didn't have a legal right to build their supremacist, spit-on-America monument on this site. But I don't see any reason just to assume they do--particularly when some of the guiding lights behind this project are criminals associated with foreign jihadist organizations hostile to the United States. Should Al Qaeda have a right to open a regional office here, too?

I'm sure whether this den of iniquity can be built there is an extremely complex legal issue involving New York's land use and zoning laws and the free exercise of religion. If the city allows buildings of that type in that zone as a matter of right, it might not be able to prevent it. But if it would only be permitted there as a conditional use, that's another story. It would depend on what uses the building would be put to.
 unYOUsual
Joined: 8/11/2011
Msg: 286
Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/24/2012 4:20:33 AM

Yes, the bars, sex shops and strip clubs closer to "ground zero" are much more "merican" in honoring the victims. To be true patridiots, the best way to honor the Constitution is to violate first amendment rights of select citizens.
You crack me up, the proposed Mosque was not proposed until after 9-11 those stores/shops etc..have been there since before 9-11...I may be wrong but the Towers weren't destroyed and 3000 or so innocent civilians were not killed by Hookers and Strippers, they were killed by Muslim Terrorists.
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 287
Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/24/2012 5:05:37 AM

3000 or so innocent civilians were not killed by Hookers and Strippers, they were killed by Muslim Terrorists.


Let's say we agree that the 9/11 victims "were killed by Muslim Terrorists." So why don't you agree to concentrate in fighting terrorism instead of spreading Islamophobia against other Muslim organizations for the simple reason that they want to share their faith just like any other religion engaging in missionary work. It should be noted that the people who want to build that muslim center bought the building and applied for the appropriate permits required by law. That is something that can't be said of all the missions that go around the world trying to impose their faith not always by peaceful means, appropriating land without paying for it, and using the land not always for purposes connected with the religious missionary work.

Do you have something against religious missions? Or just only against the Muslims spreading their faith which in your imagination "desecrates the memories of the victims of 9/11'?


I'm going to call the proposed Ground Zero Mosque just what it is.


Interesting how you try to get away from responding clearly about what is clearly a war crime, such as the case of desecration of the bodies of enemies killed in combat, and deflect to a discussion of your islamophobic paranoia with an imaginary war crime of rehabilitating an existing building for other purposes, including a religious center.
Are you suggesting that missionary work to share a religion is a war crime?
 unYOUsual
Joined: 8/11/2011
Msg: 288
Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/24/2012 5:45:37 AM

Do you have something against religious missions? Or just only against the Muslims spreading their faith which in your imagination "desecrates the memories of the victims of 9/11'?
Neither, I am against insensitivity and lack of respect...just because you are allowed to do something doesn't mean it is a good idea..for example would you support building a museum celebrating the Confederacy and Slavery in the middle of Harlem?
 whiskeypapa
Joined: 5/19/2008
Msg: 289
Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/24/2012 6:42:47 AM

for example would you support building a museum celebrating the Confederacy and Slavery in the middle of Harlem?


When reason fails stand up a strawman.
 unYOUsual
Joined: 8/11/2011
Msg: 290
Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/24/2012 7:12:52 AM
The Muslims showed lack of sensitivity and decorum by proposing a Muslim center so close to the site of a Terrorist attack perpetrated by Muslims....there is a certain amount of similarity in my question...would it be insensitive to African Americans to build such a Museum in Harlem? Is it insensitive to propose a Muslim Center at or near the site where thousands of Americans were killed by Muslims..I think so..

Funny that many of you can see something wrong with pissing on dead Taliban terrorists but dont see the insensitivity of proposing a Muslim center so close to the cite of the biggest terrorist act perpetrated by Muslims on American soil...
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 291
Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/24/2012 7:28:55 AM

Neither, I am against insensitivity and lack of respect...just because you are allowed to do something doesn't mean it is a good idea..for example would you support building a museum celebrating the Confederacy and Slavery in the middle of Harlem?


I understand your opinions on the matter. However, I don't hold all Muslims responsible for the actions of a few extreme radicals. In addition, I don't expect all other Muslims to be afraid of trying to share their faith just because a few extreme radicals practice terrorism. You can't expect that all Muslims start behaving as if, by religious association, they are guilty of the crimes committed by a few radical extremists. No matter how much our resident Islamophobes here try to make all Muslims be one and the same, some of us here can distinguish between Al-Qaida and other Muslim organizations.

Now, if you know someone, or have friends that would like to build "a museum celebrating the Confederacy and Slavery in the middle of Harlem," let them know that I don't live there and have nothing against them trying to accomplish their goals. I wouldn't consider their idea to be a war crime baked only in my imagination. As long as they follow all the regulatory hurdles after buying and paying for a suitable piece of property, who knows what the neighbours will accept. God knows that in this economy any peaceful projects that can bring some jobs and business activity may be welcome almost anywhere. If the proponents of such project want to try to become part of that community and live among the people of Harlem, more power to them!

Now, if you want to hear about adding symbolic insult to injury in the long history of the wars fueled by religious hatred, you should learn about the history of the city of Cordoba in southern Spain. It was pretty much customary tradition in the old days to build a new religious temple over the ruins of the old one just after having conquered a town or city. That changed somewhat when the Christians defeated the Moors in Cordoba. The new rulers, the Christians not only didn't destroy the mosque, but they built a cathedral inside the mosque. It is still standing today, and it is one of the sites that people can visit to learn about their past, when people of different religions, Moors, Christians, and Jews managed to live in peace for a while.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 292
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Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/24/2012 8:49:53 AM
However, I don't hold all Muslims responsible for the actions of a few extreme radicals.


As if anyone did. "All Muslims" includes about 1.4 billion people. But I notice you have nothing to say about the Islamists behind the Ground Zero Mosque. Either you approve of them, or you're completely ignorant of the facts about them. A lot more than what I mentioned is known. But appeasers are afraid of the truth. They want to fool themselves that if only we all grin and bow enough, Muslim jihadists who are bent on destroying us will leave us alone. Stanley Baldwin and Neville Chamberlain and many others thought the same thing about the Nazis in the 1930's.


If this were 1940, and we were talking about a headquarters of the German-American Bund that was being built in New York by Americans dedicated to Nazism, I'm sure a lot of people would be defending it as nothing more than a cultural center meant to promote harmony in a tense time. Whether the urge to play the apologist for enemies of the U.S. is malicious, or just the product of gullibility, ignorance, and faintheartedness, the result is just as bad.

Edit below:

"Al Qaeda" is a fabrication. Bin Laden never called his small group by this name before 9/11.


That is false. Bin Laden established that organization in 1992 and first operated in Sudan. His co-founder, Ayman al Zawahiri, had been the head of a radical group whose roots were in the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood, and he brought these followers along. The same Muslim Brotherhood created Hamas, which now rules in Gaza, and its affiliates in North America are behind the Ground Zero Mosque.


spreading Islamophobia against other Muslim organizations for the simple reason that they want to share their faith just like any other religion engaging in missionary work.


Anyone who believes that has been completely taken in by the cover story these people use. Da'wa is far more than proselytizing in the narrow, religious sense. It is about spreading shariah. And shariah is not just a system of law like, say, the U.S. Code. It is an entire system that prescribes what the faithful should do in all areas of life. It is supremacist and intolerant by nature, and absolutely incompatible with our laws and freedoms. It's been noted before that the Constitution is not a suicide pact.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 293
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Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/24/2012 9:31:32 AM

There is no "Ground Zero Mosque.", and there was never a proposal to build one.


I'm going to call the proposed Ground Zero Mosque just what it is.

umm.... that's exactly what you're not doing, since there was no plan to build it at 'ground zero' and it isn't a mosque.


I notice you couldn't deny that the Muslim Brotherhood's affiliates in North America supported the Dar al Hijrah complex...

Why would I engage in discussions of your strawman fallacies that amount to irrelevant derails.

The thread is about an atrocity in Iraq committed by US soldiers, yet you somehow have interpreted it to be about your jihadist armageddon fantasies. Read back, almost all of your posts, in their entirety, have been about something other than the topic.

Speaking of the topic...


Video Inflames a Delicate Moment for U.S. in Afghanistan.
KABUL, Afghanistan — A video showing four United States Marines urinating on three dead Taliban fighters provoked anger and condemnation on Thursday in Afghanistan and around the world, raising fears in Washington that the images could incite anti-American sentiment at a particularly delicate moment in the decade-old Afghan war.

The Obama administration is struggling to keep the Afghan president, Hamid Karzai, on its side as it carefully tries to open talks with the Taliban. Yet the video showing such a desecration — a possible war crime — is likely to weaken the American position with both. The Taliban and Mr. Karzai each pointed to the images as evidence of American brutality, a message with broad appeal in Afghanistan, where word of the video was slowly spreading on Thursday.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/13/world/asia/video-said-to-show-marines-urinating-on-taliban-corpses.html?pagewanted=all




KABUL: An Afghan soldier who shot dead four French troops says he did it because of a recent video showing US Marines urinating on the dead bodies of Taliban insurgents, security sources say.
http://www.smh.com.au/world/marines-film-linked-to-french-troop-deaths-20120123-1qdxq.html


And a different angle from the National Catholic Reporter... (my edit)

Marines urinating on Taliban corpses: Putting words to the picture
The most telling story within the PBS report, however, was Ignatius' remark that the Marines' behavior is the kind of thing that happens in war. Although not quite a boys-will-be boys quip, his comment nevertheless misses a disturbing underside of American society.

Atrocities in war happen, sure. But their staging by troops for the purpose of photographic documentation is behavior that makes no sense outside a cultural context in which the commitment of atrocities is conflated with martial accomplishment.

The photographs that documented the pride of men liberating Dachau were supplanted by self-posed shots documenting the torture of prisoners at Abu Ghraib and the desecration of dead Taliban soldiers.

It is said that pictures can be worth a thousand words, but it will take many thousands of words to write the back-story of the pictures coming home from the new American wars of the 21st century.

When the clouds of denial, confusion and excuse-making generated by the photographs are parted, we'll see beyond the insensitivity and narcissism of the posing poseurs and see the still-uglier sight of a country that lost its sense of place in history, its people supporting wars only because the troops have been sent to fight them, its troops displaying their own degradation as a badge of honor.

(Jerry Lembcke is associate professor of sociology at Holy Cross College in Worcester, Mass.)
 Bladesmith81801
Joined: 10/30/2010
Msg: 294
Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/24/2012 10:00:47 AM

I'm going to call the proposed Ground Zero Mosque just what it is. Apologists for Islamic extremism can call it whatever they want. It is a calculated show of Islamist supremacy and contempt for a hallowed site, just as surely as if a group of Japanese supremacists were to build a memorial to Japan's WWII conquests within view of the Arizona Memorial.

I notice you couldn't deny that the Muslim Brotherhood's affiliates in North America supported the Dar al Hijrah complex--which has been a haven for jihadists--and are now supporting the so-called "Cordoba Initiative." I'm sure you'd like to deny the connections among the Muslim Brotherhood, ISNA, IIIT, Hamas ("the wing of the Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine," says its charter), Dar al Hijrah, and the proposed Ground Zero Mosque--if you knew anything about them--but they have been proven.

I don't want to get into more details on this here, since it's tangential to the thread topic. I have lots more documentation of it, with specific facts, dates, and names. Earlier, I posted links to the documents used in the Holy Land Foundation trial. If anyone is interested in the truth about Faisal Rauf et al. and the Ground Zero Mosque, as opposed to the falsehoods leftists and their Islamist buddies are peddling, they can contact me directly.


Once again you ignore the actual reality in favor of your own bigoted bias. Doesn't matter what truth is, if it doesn't reinforce your personal bias, you reject it. Reality need not apply.
 Bladesmith81801
Joined: 10/30/2010
Msg: 295
Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/24/2012 10:08:29 AM

You crack me up, the proposed Mosque was not proposed until after 9-11 those stores/shops etc..have been there since before 9-11...I may be wrong but the Towers weren't destroyed and 3000 or so innocent civilians were not killed by Hookers and Strippers, they were killed by Muslim Terrorists.


I might point out to you that those Muslim terrorists were largely Saudi Arabian, yet we invaded Afghanistan and Iraq. Afghanistan was fine for a punitive strike, not an occupation, and Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 at any level.

If we were interested in actually punishing the bad guys, we'd have bombed Saudi Arabia. But we couldn't do that because they're FoBs.

Regardless, America has now killed many many more muslims (and christians as well) in Afghanistan and Iraq than were people killed in 9/11. So how many is enough for retributive purposes?
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 296
Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/24/2012 6:47:16 PM
I know that communist, socialist and anarchist are synonymous with evil in your mind, but it was a different time.

Lucille Ball was a member of the Communist party at that time.

The men who went to fight for freedom and democracy in Spain were acting heroically. Hemingway went.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 297
Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/24/2012 7:12:46 PM
Yes, it was a democratic form of communism. It was the elected government of Spain. The Fascists bloodily put down the will of the people and put in a totalitarian dictatorship.

If communists win an election, then fighting against evil and for democracy is fighting for democracy.

Hell, you were born in a totalitarian nation. I'm kind of shocked that you don't understand the difference between democracy and totalitarianism. Unless of course, you really believe that "communism, socialism and anarchism is EVIL." Then you're pretty much beyond the reach of rational argument. It's a tenet of faith that brooks no disagreement.
 Ms Cheevious
Joined: 12/8/2008
Msg: 298
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Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/25/2012 4:56:25 AM
From the Washington Examiner:



Marine's career threatened by controversial rules of engagement

Marine Corps 1st Lt. Joshua Waddell, 25, in Sangin, Afghanistan, is executive officer with the 3rd Battalion, 7th Marine Corps Regiment, from Twentynine Palms, Calif. (Courtesy photo)Joshua Waddell, a first lieutenant in the U.S. Marines, appeared on his way to a stellar career as an American military officer. The son of a retired Navy SEAL commander, Waddell was awarded a Bronze Star during his first tour of duty in Afghanistan and had returned for a second.
Then he made a decision in combat that military experts say has severely jeopardized his future in the corps.

But some military experts say the black mark on Waddell's record was undeserved, that he and other young American officers are being put in a difficult, if not impossible, situation by unreasonable rules of engagement foisted upon the military by politically sensitive commanders in the Pentagon.

The facts in Waddell's case are spelled out in Marine Corps documents. But how those facts should be interpreted is a matter of heated dispute.

On Nov. 1, Waddell, a 25-year-old executive officer with 3rd Battallion, 7th Marine Corps Regiment, was monitoring a surveillance camera in Sangin, Afghanistan, when he spotted a man who had been identified as a bomb maker working with area insurgents. Two days earlier, a sergeant from India Company had lost both legs and a hand when a bomb detonated in their area of operation. The man spotted on the camera was believed to be responsible.

After receiving permission from his battalion commanders, Waddell ordered Marine snipers to open fire on the man, and he was hit. A group of Afghans rushed to the man, put him on a tractor and attempted to flee. Waddell ordered the snipers to hit the engine block of the tractor, disabling it so the man believed to be a bomb maker would not escape. The tractor was hit but no civilians were injured.

Then, about three weeks later, the civilians who helped remove the wounded man from the area were found to be teenagers.

As a result, Waddell was demoted from executive officer, and the battalion commander, Lt. Col. Seth Folsom, determined he had violated rules of engagement that governed when Marines could fire, and at whom. Folsom said Wadell "is not recommended for promotion" and "in violation of [combat rules] during an engagement." The report stated that "noncombatant local nationals" were in the area of direct fire and that "the engagement resulted in a damaged local national vehicle."

A Marine brigadier general who reviewed the case was sympathetic to Waddell, whom he described as a "superb and heroic combat leader. But the general said the decision on whether Waddell should be promoted was "the commander's prerogative," noting that the battalion commander on the scene had lost "confidence in [Waddell's] abilities."

Marine Maj. Shawn Haney, spokesman for Marine Corps Manpower and Reserve Affairs, said Waddell's fitness report will go before a review board at the time of any promotion "and everything is under scrutiny, so Waddell will have a chance to defend himself against the accusations." Still, Haney conceded, Waddell's fitness reports play a "significant role in future promotions."

The upshot is that Waddell's career has been effectively blunted, his chance for promotion blocked.

Waddell is just one of hundreds of cases of troops who have suffered under stringent rules of engagement, said Jeff Addicott, a former senior legal adviser to U.S. Army Special Forces.

"We have hamstrung our military with unrealistic ROEs that do more harm to our soldiers than the enemy, and now a Marine's career is on the line because he disabled a tractor," Addicott said. "In many ways our military is frozen in fear of violating absurd self-imposed rules on the battlefield, How can you tell if it's a teenager or a man, a farmer or an enemy when you're fighting an insurgency?"

A Marine stationed in Afghanistan who does not know Waddell, but who has operated under the same rules, said, "The rules of engagement are meant to placate [President Hamid] Karzai's government at our expense. They say it's about winning the hearts and minds, but it's not working. We're not putting fear into the enemy, only our troops."

Waddell's father, Mark Waddell, who served more than 25 years in the military and retired as a commander of a Navy SEAL team, said his son and other Americans fighting in Afghanistan are being victimized by these rules.

"I feel what's happened to my son is a complete betrayal, and he isn't the only one," said Waddell, of Fort Worth, Texas. "Josh is a hero. We expect them to go out and make instantaneous combat decisions, then we Monday-morning quarterback their decisions. It's an outrage."



All you armchair PC "warriors" should be turning cartwheels over this situation..

In case y'all didn't get the memo...war is already a royal pain in the ass. When f*cked up ROE is added to the mix.... it damn near ruins the party.


US video ‘behind’ French troops deaths
An Afghan soldier who shot dead four French troops has said he did it because of a recent video showing US Marines urinating on the dead bodies of Taliban insurgents, security sources told AFP.

Didn't read the article, but I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say the Afghan soldier's loyalties are questionable. I'm surprised he is still alive.


The attack on the soldiers, who were unarmed, came on Friday at a base in eastern Afghanistan and left 15 other French troops wounded, eight of them seriously.

Attacking the UNarmed is par for the course, no? Appears they operate under different ROE.

 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 299
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Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/25/2012 6:34:15 AM

In case y'all didn't get the memo...war is already a royal pain in the ass. When f*cked up ROE is added to the mix.... it damn near ruins the party.

There's no doubt about it, war has a deleterious effect on everyone involved. But even so, having 'Rules Of Engagement' that prohibit desecration of corpses seems kind of sensible.



US video ‘behind’ French troops deaths
An Afghan soldier who shot dead four French troops has said he did it because of a recent video showing US Marines urinating on the dead bodies of Taliban insurgents, security sources told AFP.

Didn't read the article, but I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say the Afghan soldier's loyalties are questionable. I'm surprised he is still alive.

Once again, there's no doubt about where the rogue Afghan soldiers loyalties lie. It's not like he sprayed bullets around in an effort to make friends.
The point of the article is that he used the actions of the undisciplined marines to justify it. So all those marines have done is inspire the forces they're fighting against, while inserting unnecessary complications into any peace or handover negotiations. Not to mention ruining their own lives and besmirching the US's international reputation. Again.

Presumably the Afghan soldier is still alive though because the discipline of the French soldiers who captured him prevented them from sinking to his level with some crude retaliatory gesture?


The attack on the soldiers, who were unarmed, came on Friday at a base in eastern Afghanistan and left 15 other French troops wounded, eight of them seriously.


Attacking the UNarmed is par for the course, no? Appears they operate under different ROE.

Different ROE or not, the article you cite has a US serviceman firing on unarmed people who are trying to evacuate an injured man.

The Geneva Convention kind of frowns on things like that, and that's without even considering they were teenagers.

The people who really want to avoid such ethical dilemmas should be putting all their efforts into negotiating a solution, not trying to think of ways to make it easier to shoot at Afghans.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mEj0Gj5vsQ
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 300
Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/25/2012 9:08:00 AM

Ask your spirit guide too whom you want standing on that wall tonight. A loyal person sometimes stupid but has your back.


Yes, "sometimes stupid" will be one of the things that I agree with in this case; however, in my book, the case for loyalty is very much in doubt. As we have already seen, some coalition soldiers have been killed and many more have been injured by prople taking revenge for the desecration of the corpses, a war crime committed by those stupid Marines. How many more will die or suffer injury because of that "stupid," premeditated action on their part? No, that is not the action of people who are loyal to the cause. It is the action of those who would like the conflict prolonged for as long as they can profit from it.

I am going to wait to see the results of the investigation about what really happened there in that incident. I suspect that those responsible for the timing of the release of that video most likely had reasons of their own for what they did. To say that it was just sheer stupidity is fine for those who would like to give them a light slap and a pass. For people like me, knowing that the president had already disciplined one of those high ranking officers serving in Afghanistan for disloyal service, "loyalty" is not just an empty word to lull my senses. If any of those involved in this incident, and the release of the video, are found to have been acting in the slightest self-serving manner, I would say they ought to be slapped with an additional charge: treason.
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