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Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter [closed]      Home login  
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 Revilors
Joined: 10/9/2008
Msg: 51
Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban FighterPage 3 of 15    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15)

Yep i sure lied about what i said.....

So you are saying on a battlefield they have the same direct threats as men do down in the front line??????????


First…you did lie. Your post said this in message 17


Well considering they were all a team of snipers picking off people from 300+ yards away they weren't what I would call directly in harms way. Never the less, these men should be accountable for their own actions and there is no rime or reason behind it.


No comparison or reference to this imaginary “front line”

Then you posted this in message 57

Really so snipers face the same dangers as men in the front line do? Obv you have no clue... I never said not in harms way i said "they aren't directly in harms way" compared to those that are down in the front line.

Where you stated you never said…what you said…and added the comparison and also two references to this imaginary “front line”.
PROOF that you lied. And PROOF that you obviously have no clue as to what harm’s way is…or front line. There is NO FRONT LINE. Where is it? Tell me where it is. “Harm’s way” is all over there and way far away from you both geographically and intellectually.
You don’t have to be all tied up with a machete at your throat to be in “harm’s way”. There are higher risk tasks over there and I would count a sniper team as one of them. Four or five guys out in the middle of nowhere without a large number of troops, artillery and air support to protect them.

Each time you post…you dig yourself a deeper hole. And it’s no fox hole you’re digging.

Do you still want to claim you never said it? You can claim you said "direct harms way" but it the same as saying "overly excessive, obsessively compulsive". It's a tautologous statement. "Harm's way is harm's way".
 vlad dracul
Joined: 4/30/2009
Msg: 52
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Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/13/2012 12:08:10 PM
and another thing see all the great and good from sleazy rodent
journalists to the corrupt money grabbing politicians, they should
maybe, just maybe show the same morals they expect combat troops
to have.

the worst thing they did was film it. you have a CLINTON talking about morality???????/

the auld trout is hankering for ANOTHER war this time with iran. what fvckin morals
have her family ever shown?

and as for the coke snorting journos who just love gangster crap well
maybe they should get out of the citys and head to the front line.

i still remember the rodent who filmed one of your soldiers letting his
emotions get to him by shooting a supposedly wounded advesary in iraq

next time hopefully a stray bullet might hit one of those sanctimonious scum
 egowitch
Joined: 6/5/2011
Msg: 53
Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/13/2012 12:11:05 PM
While I certainly don't condone this behavior, and think it's way out of line - especially from Marines, in some ways I can understand how it could happen.

With all the anger and hatred stirred up in these wars , an act like this shows the great tension being in danger all the time , can produce. And the subsequent retaliation that results - in this case , on harmless dead bodies that embody the enemy.
Disrespectful ? Yes. Inflammatory ? Definitely.

I've heard some similar stories and mindsets from Viet Nam vets.

"war, what is it good for ? Absolutely NOTHING !"
 OutofControlMan
Joined: 12/22/2011
Msg: 54
Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/13/2012 12:25:37 PM

This is just sick. No reason for this sort of behavior whatsoever. You'd expect this from savages, not the U.S. military. All this will do is give more motivation for the Taliban to recruit and kill more U.S. men and women overseas.


sort of don't get it? you see killing,, murdering people as perfectly fine . but to pee on them is atrocious?

If I get a choice, you can pee on me rather than kill me, OK ?
 jsphn11
Joined: 12/24/2007
Msg: 55
Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/13/2012 12:26:02 PM
I hope the Marines are punished too harshly.... I agree with stated below:


“There is this constant, hyper-vigilant state you have to maintain,” Weiss told msnbc.com. “You have an unknown enemy, even a woman walking down the street can be carrying a bomb to blow you up, and you have no green zone, no safe place to get away. This creates ambiguity. And the more ambiguity the greater the stress because of the situation.”

In addition, there is a group dynamic that can kick in among people engaged in close combat.

The act of urinating on the dead bodies “could be a coping mechanism in dealing with a very difficult situation,” Weiss said. “Or it could be this sense of vengeance, because a lot of troops in combat have lost comrades in the line of duty, or even post deployment from suicide or have later died from injuries. So there can be this great sense of vengeance. And that certainly can turn twisted.”



"Many people in this country that worry far more about public relations and how we are perceived by the rest of the world are shocked at Marines urinating on Taliban," retired Army Sgt. Maj. Herb Freidman, an author and authority on psychological operations, told msnbc.com. "Why? They are murderers and terrorists that think nothing of blowing up soldiers, civilians, women and children. What have they done to deserve our respect? There are Marines being killed and maimed on a daily basis by these people. They are flying in from Muslim countries all over the world to get their crack at martyrdom. If some Marine that fought them in battle fair and square feels that he has the right to urinate on a defeated enemy, what is the problem? Hell, it could be worse.... It is a fight to the death, not some sort of gentlemanly duel with seconds and everyone very politely drinking a fine wine afterwards."


http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/01/12/10143004-extreme-war-stresses-to-blame-in-marine-urination-video
 SteelCity1981
Joined: 8/16/2005
Msg: 56
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Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/13/2012 12:48:40 PM
First…you did lie. Your post said this in message 17


LOL how was that lying? what i said was accurate to what i said in the other post after that. Again i said and a quote once more.


Well considering they were all a team of snipers picking off people from 300+ yards away they weren't what I would call directly in harms way. Never the less, these men should be accountable for their own actions and there is no rime or reason behind it.



I never said not in harms way i said "they aren't directly in harms way" compared to those that are down in the front line.


So where was the lie? LOL I stated in both ost that they weren't directly in harms way.


Where you stated you never said…what you said…and added the comparison and also two references to this imaginary “front line”.PROOF that you lied. And PROOF that you obviously have no clue as to what harm’s way is…or front line. There is NO FRONT LINE. Where is it? Tell me where it is. “Harm’s way” is all over there and way far away from you both geographically and intellectually. You don’t have to be all tied up with a machete at your throat to be in “harm’s way”. There are higher risk tasks over there and I would count a sniper team as one of them. Four or five guys out in the middle of nowhere without a large number of troops, artillery and air support to protect them.


You really are reaching aren't you? This was in ref to warzone hense msg 14.


No one said war doesn't take it's toll on people but in the warzone you have certain guidelines and principles to uphold. This type of behavior does nothing but paint the U.S. Military in a bad light and the rest that do good by honoring those principles a bad name.


I'm still waiting on that lie when it was ref to warzone, which correlated to what i was ref to in regards to direct threats. What else obv would i be ref to in regards to the field battle? LOL

There is no front line on the battlefield? I can tell you have no lick of military background with that comment.



A front line is the farthest-most forward position(s) of an armed force's personnel and equipment - generally in respect of maritime or land forces. Forward Line of Own Troops (FLOT), or Forward Edge of Battle Area (FEBA) are technical terms used by all branches of the armed services. They are a battlespace control measure that designate the forward-most friendly maritime or land forces on the battlefield at a given point in time, during an armed conflict. FLOT/FEBA may include covering and screening forces. The Forward Line of Enemy Troops (FLET), is the FEBA from the enemy's perspective.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Front_line


Yep i guess i just made up this imaginery thing called the front line. LOL

Who gets targetted more people that are hiding or people on the field in a warzone? The people on the field. Any field officer will tell you that. I mean, this is a guy telling me that there is no such thing as a front line and yet i'm guessing never served in the military. Your ignorance purely shows that considering you didn't even think a front line was real.



Each time you post…you dig yourself a deeper hole. And it’s no fox hole you’re digging.


Each time i post i'm digging myself in a whole? LOL This is hypocrisy at its finest considering you couldn't correlate in regards to what i was ref oh and you thought a front line wasn't real.......


Do you still want to claim you never said it? You can claim you said "direct harms way" but it the same as saying "overly excessive, obsessively compulsive". It's a tautologous statement. "Harm's way is harm's way".


Again i never said they weren't in harms way i said they weren't directly in harms way. I don't know how many times i have to say this to you...
 SteelCity1981
Joined: 8/16/2005
Msg: 57
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Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/13/2012 12:50:14 PM

sort of don't get it? you see killing,, murdering people as perfectly fine . but to pee on them is atrocious?

If I get a choice, you can pee on me rather than kill me, OK ?


Who said it was. Obv you don't get it.
 OutofControlMan
Joined: 12/22/2011
Msg: 58
Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/13/2012 12:56:01 PM
^^



Who said it was. Obv you don't get it.


news flash for you.. US troops have killed thousands and thousands in Afghanistan & Iraq in the past few years in some cases even unarmed civilians.

it hasn't gotten a lot of commentary, but this- peeing on 2 already-dead bodies, does?

they were DEAD. you can't hurt them MORE by peeing on them after they are ALREADY DEAD..
IF I am ever gunned down/shot dead, whoever did it has my permission to pizz on me, I am giving that right now.

oh yes and the 4 US soldiers who raped & killed a 15 -year old Iraqi girl - I think deserves at least a billion times more ink and though time than this trifling matter
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 59
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Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/13/2012 1:16:18 PM

they were DEAD. you can't hurt them MORE by peeing on them after they are ALREADY DEAD..
IF I am ever gunned down/shot dead, whoever did it has my permission to pizz on me, I am giving that right now.

oh yes and the 4 US soldiers who raped & killed a 15 -year old Iraqi girl - I think deserves at least a billion times more ink and though time than this trifling matter


And this is why we have courts and trials. Even special ones just for this purpose.
http://www.militarydefender.com/Case-Results.shtml

They were caught. There was a video. The video could be blurred up a bit to put it in mass media. There is an expectation of values that are to be upheld regardless of circumstance. There is no getting around it. It is not wrong for people to be offended by this. It is a worse society to not be offended by it. Isn't that our goal? To make this not how the world works?

If you say it is ok than what else becomes ok? Rape of the dead? Or is that too far? There are lines and they will get crossed. That doesn't make the lines drawn improperly.
 Revilors
Joined: 10/9/2008
Msg: 60
Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/13/2012 1:20:08 PM

You really are reaching aren't you? This was in ref to warzone hense msg 14.


What are you talking about. I never quoted message 14 EVER in this thread.


Again i never said they weren't in harms way i said they weren't directly in harms way. I don't know how many times i have to say this to you...


Harm's way...direct harm's way. Just like saying "It's déjà vu all over again, The vast majority, A huge great big man etc... It's the same thing. I could admit that you maybe didn't outright "lie". But...if you said "harm's way"...it's the same as saying "direct harm's way". I don't think you lied...you're just confused as it is exactly the same thing.

And the whole country is a "battle field". Even at base camps civilian contracted supply trucks are coming in with bombs on them and killing people.

So...WHERE IS THE FRONT LINE?
 OutofControlMan
Joined: 12/22/2011
Msg: 61
Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/13/2012 1:21:02 PM

If you say it is ok than what else becomes ok?


in other words you are totally fine with the killing part..when soldiers kill even unarmed civilians as long as it can plausibly be called an 'accident' -because the military says that is
" OK" it does not 'cross' the lines' ?

I'm a little naive I suppose but it boggles me still that the killing part is just hunky-dory and we are all fine & happy with that -had they killed 100 or 1,000 that would be all cool..

but the peeing part is 'shocking' ?

if that's where the lines are drawn as you say -killing good, peeing bad -maybe the lines should be changed?

recall Afghan civilians at a wedding being blown away by Apache gunship? all good ;) the pilots didn't stop to pee on them, so merely killing a few dozen unarmed people at a wedding was cool (not over the line)
 OutofControlMan
Joined: 12/22/2011
Msg: 62
Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/13/2012 1:25:46 PM
this all seems to be more about "our" (meaning American's) comfort level rather than "respect for the dead".

if it might offend our sense of taste that is the real crime. rape of the dead/ the person is dead already why would "they" "care" ?

but it would bother the people who hear about it back home- killing is just fine, in fact is awesome & joyous, just no peeing or rape with the bodies. we love killing, we cream our jeans at hearing that our soldiers are killing lots of 'them' but peeing, raping? no.

no please.!
 nipoleon
Joined: 12/27/2005
Msg: 63
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Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/13/2012 1:29:21 PM
As General Sherman said, " War is all Hell ".

Bad things happen in war.
This sort of thing happens in all wars. Atrocities have happened in every war ever fought, on all sides.

We are the Americans.
We are supposed to stand for something !
We are supposed to be better than they are.
We can not lose ourselves in barbarism and brutality and lose sight of what we are supposed to be there for.
Once that happens we should just pack it in and give up.
 SteelCity1981
Joined: 8/16/2005
Msg: 64
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Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/13/2012 1:32:49 PM
What are you talking about. I never quoted message 14 EVER in this thread.



That was in ref to what i was implying based on warzone situations


Harm's way...direct harm's way. Just like saying "It's déjà vu all over again, The vast majority, A huge great big man etc... It's the same thing. I could admit that you maybe didn't outright "lie". But...if you said "harm's way"...it's the same as saying "direct harm's way". I don't think you lied...you're just confused as it is exactly the same thing.

And the whole country is a "battle field". Even at base camps civilian contracted supply trucks are coming in with bombs on them and killing people.

So...WHERE IS THE FRONT LINE?


I said not being in direct harms way there is a key diff between me saying not being in direct harms way and me saying not in harms way.

No it's not the same thing. So how am i confused here? lol

So now you are actually acknowledging a front line. front lines pertains to on field battles in which two opposing forces engage one another in strategic areas of operation.



news flash for you.. US troops have killed thousands and thousands in Afghanistan & Iraq in the past few years in some cases even unarmed civilians.

it hasn't gotten a lot of commentary, but this- peeing on 2 already-dead bodies, does?


News Flash yes it has you don't think civilians that have gotten kill in Iraq hasn't been put out there by the media?

Secondly there is a key diff between engaging the enemy in defense vs pissing on them after they are dead. Is pissing on them a defense? No.


they were DEAD. you can't hurt them MORE by peeing on them after they are ALREADY DEAD..


How about the fact that by video taping it and showing it to the world just gives more motivation for terrorist to join up and kill Americans over seas. How about the fact that when you engage in such behavior it makes a vulnerable situation over there even worse?




IF I am ever gunned down/shot dead, whoever did it has my permission to pizz on me, I am giving that right now.


This is why you wouldn't be any better then they are...



oh yes and the 4 US soldiers who raped & killed a 15 -year old Iraqi girl - I think deserves at least a billion times more ink and though time than this trifling matter
they were DEAD.


And it was and they were delt with. So two wrongs make a right it's ok to justify some actions but not others????????


 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 65
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Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/13/2012 1:38:33 PM

but the peeing part is 'shocking' ?


Yes it can be shocking.

That is something they will find out the consequences of. Murder is not condoned either. There are severe penalties for murder while engaged in war. Cheating on your wife can get you convicted of a crime.

Having been fortunate enough and appreciative enough of the thousands and thousands of people that have and do fight in the our military for whatever reason so that I can sit my happy ass down in this chair and not have to know what it’s like. I can say that I agree with the rules. They got caught. They won't be sentenced to death either, so I’m not concerned for their safety. I can say that because I have a belief that they will still be treated fairly. It is about personal responsibility.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 66
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Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/13/2012 2:06:16 PM
Lots of pissing contests in this thread.

We are supposed to adhere to the Geneva Convention and other international agreements on the rules of war. When we violate Convention standards of behavior, this sort of disrespect comes back to our troops when captured or killed.

We also have to consider that part of military training is desensitization and dehumanization of the "enemies" to make it easier to do the killing. Add to that, repeated, long deployments and we have to expect that we have created monsters capable of such acts and worse. Our inability to put the monsters back into the civilized world upon their return is also going to haunt us for decades to come. Suicides, substance abuse, domestic violence and other acts of violence by our returning troops are epidemic. The added price we pay for empire.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 67
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Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/13/2012 2:18:38 PM
We had these rules prior to the Geneva Convention. It didn't require them for us to know what the right thing to do was.

Also, using that as an argument fails in this case as there is little evidence to suggest that the Taliban adhere to those conventions.

We adhere to them, and should adhere to them, because it is the right thing to do. Because we say so. No other authority would be needed.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 68
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Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/13/2012 2:23:48 PM

I think they can kiss fairness goodbye.


To some degree yes. But that in itself is the consequence of how they got caught. The impact was greater than just their CO catching it. There is no getting around the personal responsibility and the results of actions. They will have a legal defense though. It is not a civilian court. It will be as fair as can be under the circumstances.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 69
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Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/13/2012 3:02:48 PM
They’re being tried in the civil media - and that’s the wrong venue and wrong standard if you ask me.


But that just isn't reality or the way the world works. Taking these guys out of service won't impact troop strength. It is a disciplinary action that went public. There is no putting it back in the bottle.

It is on the 6:00 news. And that is the point. It could have been getting drunk at a bar while on leave but in uniform. It now has to be handled.


Civilians cant really comprehend what it like to know that your next step could be your last


On this I have to call some level of BS. Civilian does not equal coward/weak/inconsequential. Do you think all the people that died in all the wars we fought in would say, we did it because people at home weren’t worth it and can't understand? I have more respect for the military and the people that fight than that.
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 70
Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/13/2012 3:06:13 PM

They’re being tried in the civil media - and that’s the wrong venue and wrong standard if you ask me.

Let me fix that for you.

The civil media is cashing in on an opportunity and doing what it does best, make money.


People doing dumb stuff get viewers, and it is only a bonus when it involves and pretty white girl or something that will create a massive wedge.

Somethings are better left untold as it serves no purpose and benefits no one.

Internal discipline should have happened and nothing more.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 71
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Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/13/2012 3:10:26 PM

They’re being tried in the civil media - and that’s the wrong venue and wrong standard if you ask me.


But that just isn't reality or the way the world works. Taking these guys out of service won't impact troop strength. It is a disciplinary action that went public. There is no putting it back in the bottle.

It is on the 6:00 news. And that is the point. It could have been getting drunk at a bar while on leave but in uniform. It now has to be handled.




Civilians cant really comprehend what it like to know that your next step could be your last


On this I have to call some level of BS. Civilian does not equal coward/weak/inconsequential. Do you think all the people that died in all the wars we fought in would say, we did it because people at home weren’t worth it and can't understand? I have more respect for the military and the people that fight than that. If they are not fighting for you to not fight... what are they fighting for?



>Somethings are better left untold as it serves no purpose and benefits no one.

Internal discipline should have happened and nothing more.

It was posted on youtube. Internal discipline options were given up the second that was made public. That is just another consequence of their actions. War was not responsible, the media was not responsible, and the Taliban was not responsible. We all are responsible for our own actions and that does include consequences that can exceed the actual act. There is no changing that.
 five-marie
Joined: 7/31/2011
Msg: 72
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Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/13/2012 3:16:53 PM
This is sick? This is tame compared to what goes on in these countries. What they do to us and their own.
Bad taste, yes. Hardly worth all the media attention being given.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 73
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Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/13/2012 3:18:34 PM

They’re being tried in the civil media - and that’s the wrong venue and wrong standard if you ask me.


I can never understand why these guys always seem to give in to the urge to record these things. This is about as low on the scale of war crimes as there is, and if they wanted to do it, they should have just done it off the record. If it had gotten out, a captain or someone should have dealt with it privately, right there. Now they're going to be made an example of to maintain political correctness in the U.S. armed forces.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 74
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Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/13/2012 3:33:58 PM

lol. Combat should be fought under ideal and humane conditions but the guys in the trenches better suck it up ‘cause it’s all about reality? How’s that for an oxymoron in terms?

Sucks doesn't it. And if you were CO you would be held to that same f*d up rule, even more so. And it keeps going all the way up that line. That same f*d up impossible to comprehend f*d up oxymoron of a rule. Why... Because we have to because it is the right thing to do.


It affects moral and sends the wrong message, (not to mention it takes a few good men out of the mix). Do you want to send girl scouts or warriors into combat?


I do not disagree with you entirely on your position for them. However, there is a value system in place in the military. It is not optional. It is not a secret. We have the value system that individuals are responsible for their actions. There is just no way around it. Military is by definition discipline. There is no allowance for disrespect.

When has it ever been easy to do the right thing?

Personally, I do hope it disappears quietly.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 75
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Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/13/2012 4:38:07 PM
Gotta love chicenhawks.
Mucho bravado...little understanding.
When one is turned into a killer, it does take a toll on ones' humanity. You have to have been there and done that to understand. It takes a lot of strength to kill, to live with it, to survive doing so, particularly for really dubious and dumbass reasons, particularly when more civilians than insurgents are involve, particularly when most opposing an empire are "insurgents", just people like us opposing empires, trying to feed the family and have the good life, and we piss on them for being like us. The US fed and nurtured the Taliban, our Freedom Fighters as Reagan loved em. Chickenhawks make their own stories up.
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