Plentyoffish dating forums are a place to meet singles and get dating advice or share dating experiences etc. Hopefully you will all have fun meeting singles and try out this online dating thing... Remember that we are the largest free online dating service, so you will never have to pay a dime to meet your soulmate.
     
Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter [closed]      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 peppermint petunias
Joined: 9/2/2009
Msg: 151
Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban FighterPage 7 of 15    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15)
Just one MORE reason....Children and people who have a penchant for cruelty should not be sent into combat and handed guns or given any power over another human..

Desk jobs only.


undisciplinary and uncontrolable behavior.

^^^^^^^^^^Again back to youth and taking in anyone that can get through boot camp and pass a few tests.

Training is to short, The exams of their physiological make up is lacking.
 swingarm1966
Joined: 3/27/2011
Msg: 152
Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/15/2012 6:27:48 AM
One dead man with his head cut off is extremely powerful politically no?

Nick Berg's Killing: 50 Fishy Circumstances, Contradictory Claims, and Videotape Anomalies

The video tape and circumstances of the killing of Nick Berg seem fishier and fishier.

This article summarizes and lists 50 anomalies around Berg and his death.

Summary
A large number of anomalies surround the life and death of Nicholas Berg. A Jewish man, 26 years of age and a U.S. Citizen, he traveled alone in Iraq. Family and friends described Berg as an adventurer, high spirited and intelligent. A Washington Post report notes, "Berg was a weight lifting enthusiast and amateur comedian who had traveled abroad to help people improve their lives. Among his trips was a visit to the West African country of Ghana, where he taught villagers to make bricks and returned emaciated because he gave away most of his food."

Berg visited Iraq from December, 2003, to January, 2004, and then again starting March 14, 2004. Berg was purportedly looking for electrical contracting work building radio towers. He could not find work, though there was reportedly plenty.

On March 24, Iraqi officials arrested Berg at a checkpoint in Mosul and jailed him, because of his Jewish last name and the Israeli stamp in his passport. (See Washington Post report - reg req'd - or CSM Terrorism & Security update for May 13, which excerpts stories about Berg from various media.) Berg told friends in Baghdad that the Israelis thought he might be a spy. (See Telegraph article, "Beheaded American was arrested as a spy because of his Jewish name.") On April 05, 2004, the Bergs filed suit in federal court in Philadelphia, contending that their son was being held illegally by the U.S. military in Iraq. The next day, April 6, Nick Berg was released. On Saturday, May 8, Berg's body was found outside of Baghdad on a highway overpass. On May 11, 2004, a video of Nick Berg's execution, seemingly by beheading, was posted on the Muntada al-Ansar website, which is now offline.

There are conflicting reports about Berg's whereabouts in Iraq. According to an email to the Berg family from Beth A. Payne, a U.S. consular officer in Iraq, the U.S. military were holding Berg. This was apparently for 13 days. Iraqi police denied holding Berg. In contrast, the Telegraph article above notes, "Dan Senor, spokesman for the US-led coalition in Iraq, insisted Mr. Berg was arrested and held by Iraqi police." The timeline of Berg's captivity and the timing of the release of the video are suspicious. If Payne was correct, why did the U.S. military hold Nick Berg for two weeks? Why did the U.S. military deny this?

The video of the killing has many flaws including problems with time skips, audio dubbing, and the characteristics, appearance and speech of Berg and the killers. People from Middle Eastern cultures believe that Middle Eastern people were not involved in this video, based on the mannerisms, accents, behavior and appearance of the killers. A close inspection of the video suggests that Westerners may have been involved.

For a number of reasons, it does not appear that the Jordanian terrorist Abu Masab Al-Zaraqawi, who was voice identified by the CIA (and whose name was on the tape), was involved. He has a poorly functioning prosthetic leg and a hand tattoo, which should have been observed. Neither were. The accent of the speaker in the video was not Jordanian. Why has the CIA seemingly lied about the analysis of Al-Zarqawi's voice and his role in the killing?

Considering the many discrepancies and contradictions noted below, it seems possible that the Berg killing is a poorly crafted psy-ops exercise. This video was possibly constructed by U.S. operatives to impact the extremely volatile political developments in the U.S. and the international condemnation around the Abu Ghraib torture photos. The torture photos are mentioned in the speech in the video, though Berg may have been killed before the photos were circulated.

The majority of the points below are summarized and excerpted from eight summary articles that culled points from news articles and blog posts. (See links at end.) I compared, combined and edited the various points. Further, I added more points based on my viewing of the video (see Wizbang! Blog: Berg video site list) and by reviewing various news articles. I also added a few points based on comments at kuro5hin.org.

Some of the points below are compelling. Some are weak or may turn out to be insignificant or coincidental. This is a work in progress, an early overview of discrepancies. There are too many discrepancies and contradictions to dismiss doubts about the video and the official U.S. stories about Berg. Additional inquiry and fact checking are needed as the Berg story unfolds or, rather, unravels.

Points are included on these topics: Suspicious Circumstances and Timeline; Timing of Killing and Videotape Release; Videotape of Berg, His Decapitation, and Location; More Videotape Anomalies; Identity of Killers of Berg and Their Possessions; and, Berg's Previous Activities and Return of the Body

Suspicious Circumstances and Timeline

1) A Jewish man and U.S. citizen traveling alone in Iraq?
Why did a private Jewish American citizen choose to wander around Iraq by himself? He also had a passport stamp from Israel - very unsafe to travel with.

2) Berg wanted to return home
In his last email on April 6 to his family, Berg stated he wished to return home as soon as possible. The FBI claim he refused an offer of help to get home (perhaps because of danger to get to airport).

3) Three FBI visits
The FBI made three visits to the Berg while he was in custody in Iraq. This suggest U.S. authorities were concerned about more than Berg's well-being. They may have had their own suspicions about what the young American was doing in Iraq.

4) FreeRepublic website listed the Berg business as an "Enemy of the State".
Nick Berg's father, Michael Berg, signed an anti-war petition online and included the business name. (Note that Nick Berg himself was pro-Bush and pro-war.) This occurred a week before his son's second departure to Iraq. As a result of this statement the Berg business was put on a right wing enemies list. The FreeRepublic website listed the Berg business as an "Enemy of the State." This may have been linked to the thre visits by the FBI during Nick Berg's containment by the Iraqi Police and then presumably by (or under supervision) of the US Military.

5) Family sues in U.S. and Berg released next day in Iraq
On 5 April, Berg's family filed a suit in federal court in Philadelphia - contending that their son was being held illegally by the US military in Iraq. The next day he was released and left to get himself home.

6) U.S. custody
Berg's last known whereabouts was in U.S. custody. On April 1, Beth A. Payne, the U.S. consular officer in Iraq, sent an e-mail to the family of Nick Berg. It stated that Ms. Payne had located Nick, and he was currently in custody of the US military. She wrote, "I have confirmed that your son, Nick, is being detained by the U.S. military in Mosul. He is safe. He was picked up approximately one week ago. We will try to obtain additional information regarding his detention and a contact person you can communicate with directly." (See: The Unanswered Questions of Nick Berg's Murder at antiwar.com.) This is distinct from the next point...

7) Denial of custody
The US military has stated that Berg was never in US custody and that he had been in custody of the Iraqi police. The Iraqi police adamantly deny he was ever in their custody. (See again: The Unanswered Questions of Nick Berg's Murder.) If this is so, we have to conclude that either the email from Ms. Payne was incorrect or that the US military has been lying.

8) Apprehension of Berg
Berg was mysteriously captured while still wearing jumpsuit. Either he escaped from U.S. captors or U.S. let him out -- with orange suit and all -- to be immediately apprehended by "terrorists" (before he had a chance to change). Or, the captors somehow came across a U.S. military prison jumpsuit. (More on this is below.) This scenario contradicts the following:

9) Was Berg at hotel several days to April 10?
Staff at Al-Fanar Hotel in Baghdad apparently told The Associated Press that Berg stayed there for several days until April 10. A U.S. consul contract worker checked at the hotel on 4/14 and staff there did not remember Berg.

10) Family blames detainment by U.S. military for Berg's death
The last time the family heard from Nick Berg was on 9 April. He had planned to return home at the end of March. His headless body was found near Mosul on 8 May. "That's really what cost my son his life, the fact that the United States government saw fit to keep him in custody for 13 days without any of his due process or civil rights," Michael Berg said.

Timing of Killing and Videotape Release

11) Berg is killed before torture photos released but video tape refers to photos?
To quote "Fishy Circumstances and Flawed Timelines Surround American's Beheading)":
"me and a friend were discussing recent news events and trying to piece together the information presented to us, thought you might want to look into this further, they said in the news that Nicholas Berg was killed 2 weeks ago (i think), however in the video the culprits who killed him said they were "avenging iraqi prisoner abuse" but those photos weren't released until last week, so my question is how is that even a possible motive if he was killed prior to the abuse photos being released?? maybe i am misinformed but thought id ask the question to someone who would look into it."

12) Text with video mentions "shameful pictures"
The text posted to the website along with the video the translation of the Arabic statement, cites "shameful pictures." Here is a translation of the Arabic statement (at the Northeast Intelligence Network) made with the video: "And the shameful pictures and the news of the evil humiliation of the Islam people men and women in Ghareb 's father prison then where the jealousy and where the zeal and where the anger about the Allah's religion and where the jealousy for the Muslims sanctities and where the revenge for the honors of Muslims and Muslims is in the crosses prisons."

13) Wag the dog timing
There is extremely convenient 'wag the dog' timing at the height of furor regarding U.S. torture of Iraqis.

14) Torture photo timing
CNN poll question: 'Is the Berg killing a reason for withholding any remaining Iraq prisoner abuse pictures?' Bush has been reported to be struggling with question of whether the Pentagon should release additional torture photos. Given that the alleged decapitation of Berg was allegedly prompted by the first wave of torture photos, Bush could now cite 'national security' issues for withholding additional materials.

Videotape of Berg, His Decapitation, and Location

15) Orange jumpsuit
Berg shown in video wearing orange jumpsuit known to be of U.S. issue. The orange jump suit "appears" to be identical to the jumpsuits used at Guantanamo. (Compare with pictures at Guantanamo.) The orange jumpsuit was standard US military issue to men in custody. It is unlikely Berg would continue wearing a U.S. custodial uniform if he had been released by the military as they claim. The fact he was still wearing the suit is both anomalous and suggestive. One wonders: Was there an immediate transfer of Berg from the US military to unknown persons, preventing Berg from discarding his US prison garb?

16) No blood at decapitation
When Berg is decapitated, there was almost no blood. If Berg were still alive at this point, with the cut starting at front of throat, blood would have been spraying everywhere. Berg's severed head, the floor, Berg's clothes, and even the hand of the 'Arab' who decapitated Berg had no visible blood on it. When the executioner holds up Berg's head immediately following what is represented as an actual decapitation of a living person, there is no significant blood flow from the neck or blood splatters showing anywhere on the executioner.

17) Berg did not move
Berg seems limp just before the beheading. It is not clear if he was moving after the time skip in the tape. While on the ground, Berg's body didn't seem move except in response to the captors movements. Although held down, Berg would have tried to instinctively wiggle and writhe away from captor's grip and use of a knife. (That is unless he was long dead after the cut in the tape.) A surgeon would very likely testify that the beheading did not cause the death.

18) Berg may have been dead just before beheading
The lack of spurting blood and lack of movement suggests Berg was already dead at the time of the alleged decapitation. During the beheading, Berg's eyes are not seen. Camera angle made it impossible to see if Berg's eyes were open or glassy. Berg very probably was killed before the staged beheading. Did the captors have no stomach for the beheading of a living person?

19) Straight cut on the neck
The cut on Berg's neck seems to be too straight to have been done crudely and with such speed by a man wielding a large knife. Anybody who has carved a turkey knows there is something wrong with the supposed beheading. The suspended head looks more like Berg had been neatly beheaded by a guillotine.

20) Is the person in the video Berg?
Some viewers believe the person in the video only vaguely resembles Berg. (Note: presumably the family can and will identify Berg's voice and appearance.)

21) Chair
The chair that Berg was seated in during the filming was the exact same kind as seen in a color photo taken at the Abu Ghraib Prison. One blog mentioned this was "a standard issue military chair." However, these chairs might be abundant in Iraq. (See photo comparisons at link in next point.)

22) Walls and baseboard at the killing site same color as some in Abu Ghraid prison
However, many walls may be similar in Iraq. To quote Marc Perkel (It's The Same Chair!!!! OMFG!!):
"I have some more pics but the walls are the same yellow color and the baseboard is the same color as Abu Ghraib prison."

More Videotape Anomalies

23) The videotape was quite blurred.

24) A quickly disappearing video source?
A Reuters journalist in Dubai first named the Muntada al-Ansar al-Islami website as the source for the video - at www.al-ansar.biz. Although the site has now been shut down, Aljazeera.net had looked at the site within ninety minutes of the story breaking - and could find no such video footage. But Fox News, CNN and the BBC were all able to download the footage from the Arabic-only website and report the story within the hour.

25) Tape editing
The video tape is obviously spliced together and heavily edited: Going from a) Berg sitting in chair talking about family, to b) Berg sitting on floor with hooded "militants" behind, to c) blurry camera movement, to d) almost motionless Berg on floor as head cut off.

26) Long time jump in datestamp
There is a significant time jump on tape from a datestamp in the tape of about 240 to about 1347. There could have been two cameras recording this event. However, there were changes in dress after the fact that would lead to the idea of an elapsed time.

27) Scream dubbed in: Screaming starts while Berg is not moving and before he is touched
Whatever the mismatch in the speaker and video (next point), videotape cognoscenti have said the scream was amateurishly dubbed into the tape. The writer of this K5 article reviewed this issue closely: The screaming starts (at 4:31 - on the copy I viewed, not the time stamp) about 5 to 6 seconds before Berg is touched (at 4:36) and he is moved to his side. He is just sitting there like a lump. While the screaming commences for (1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 seconds), his head doesn't move and his mouth doesn't appear to move (though the tape is blurry), nor does he seem to be physically screaming at any time. Yet the audio plays a loud vigorous screaming. The exact same dubbed screaming continues after the long time jump and a bit of a time gap with silence and after some cutting on the head, during which Berg is not moving. This screaming seems clearly dubbed and is highly incongruous with Berg's lack of activity.

28) Handling of papers on video
"Terrorist" reader flips through pages of 'statement' at one point. He keeps ending up on the same page for awhile. As noted below, this would very likely produce a gap in speech, which is out of sync with the smooth timing of the spoken statement.

29) Audio is dubbed: Tape of speaker and video are out of sync
Audio experts note the tape is clearly dubbed. The speaker recording is different from executioner video recording, due to lag between audio and video.
From "In the Absence of Truth from the White House, Conspiracy Theories Emerge About the Nick Berg Murder" at buzzflash.com:
"Analysis of Execution video -- I propose that the executioner's voice (according to my analysis of listening closely to the audio feed) is not that of the killer's. When listening to the executioner's voice on the tape one first notes that there is a 2-3 second lag in the "time" between audio and video, audio leading. This is consistent with the argument that the video camera and tape recorder are actually two different recording devices. What convinced me that the executioner could not be the "voice" behind the document, read prior to Nick Berg's execution, is the lack of consistency seen between the video and audio recordings, even if the 2-3 second delay is considered. A careful viewing of the video shows the executioner on "several occasions" fumbling with the 2 pages that he held, and at times reading the same page over again -- or so it appears. At least 4 times during the video the executioner is "turning over" pages, holding the pages "apart" as if confused, and all of this adds up to one conclusion. There should have been a "pause" or "2-3 second delay" in the reading of the documents during the physical handling of the documents -- but none is found that is long enough to account for it. Conclusion: The executioner is not "reading" the document. Someone else is. The executioner is trying his best to "lip sinc" the reading, but fails miserably on close inspection. The "smooth" reading of the document is entirely inconsistent (according my analysis of the video) and therefore cannot be the same person that is recording into the audio device."

30) Berg identification - why?
Berg goes to great trouble to identify himself, providing information about his family. Why? To elicit greater sympathy? Or to provide a positive ID. FBI visited Berg family in an attempt to 'verify his identity'. The guy in video looks little like Berg photos provided by family.

31) Woman's scream, instead of Berg?
The alleged scream on heard on the tape has been interpreted as a woman's scream by viewers. (The scream did not seem to this K5 article's author necessarily to be in a woman's voice.)

32) Mistranslation of Al Qaeda connection
On the first day of Nick Berg's execution, it was reported on several major news networks that al Qaeda was connected to the killer's statement, which turned out to be false. The US Intelligence translation still retains this "reference" to al Qaeda, which does not exist. The U.S. government translation of one statement made on the film is: "Does al Qaeda need any further excuses?" This is a falsification. The actual statement urged fellow insurgents to get off their hind ends and do something. One assumes the translator used by the US military is a native speaker of Arabic, so this may not be an innocent flub. Did the US government intentionally link an alleged al Qaeda group into the murder of Nick Berg? Note: the word on tape was al qaed, with quite a different meaning from al Qaeda.

Identity of Killers of Berg and Their Possessions

33) Western body posture and mannerisms of "terrorists"
The "terrorists" have Western-style body posture and mannerisms. They seem to be at parade rest at times.

34) "Terrorists" were fat
Several of the men in the film were fat by Iraqi standards. If they were Feyadeen or Mujahadeen, they probably have been living underground since the first days of the occupation. Tens of thousands of Iraqis have been shown on news stories as they have marched and demonstrated. One would be hard pressed to point out a single fat man among these thousands.

35) White hands of "terrorists"
Some of the "Arab terrorists" have pasty-white hands and (other exposed) skin. One would be hard pressed to find Arab men with pasty-white hands. (See: Nick Berg Conspiracy Theories Abound.)

36) Wrong accent
Al-Zarqawi is/was Jordinian. Arab linguists have said the man posing as Al-Zarqawi did not speak with a Jordanian dialect. Others have suggested the man reading the written statement may not have been a native speaker of Arabic.

37) Change in masks by beheader
To quote a K5 comment:
"The guy who holds up the head at the end has a white mask and no vest. The guy who pulls out the knife and starts cutting is in a black mask. The only guy with a white mask is wearing a green vest"

38) Voice id
Al-Zarqawi's identification by the CIA was based on "probable" voice id of the videotape.

39) Al-Zarqawi's missing leg
Al-Zarqawi was missing one leg. Al-Zarqawi allegedly wears a prosthetic device, according to previous CIA reports. (See: IHT Protrait of Al-Zarqawi.) There is no evidence that the killer wore a prosthetic device. Further, Al-Zarqawi had been outfitted with an artificial leg that did not fit or function properly. He was unable to walk or stand normally. No man in the group showed evidence of such infirmity.

40) Missing tattoos?
Large green tattooed "dots" are known to be on the back of Abu Musab Zarqawi's left hand. These tattoos cannot be seen in the close up video of the execution, though the back of his hand is fairly visible. (See: IHT Protrait of Al-Zarqawi.)

41) Al-Zarqawi dead?
Numerous indigenous sources have said Al-Zarqawi was killed by a US helicopter attack months ago when he was unable to move quickly enough to escape the targeted house. While others managed to exit the house in time to survive, he died in the collapsed building.

42) Gold ring on killer's hand
The man in the videotape who is purported to be Zarqawi seems to be wearing a gold ring. Note: This is a questionable point. To quote Healing Iraq (healingiraq.blogspot.com) as quoted at this angryfinger.org post (Nick Berg Conspiracy Theories Abound): "Islam does not specifically forbid that men wear gold, in fact the Quran and the Hadith have encouraged men to 'adorn' and 'embellish' themselves (dying hair, perfume, etc.) .... the practice of wearing gold ornaments is discouraged by Muslim clerics, "Gold is the ornament of women". Socially it is not acceptable in the Arab world for men to wear gold, although this has changed lately and many young men do (engagement and wedding rings are mostly gold)."

43) Why anonymous?
Al-Zarqawi's face is very well-known. If Al-Zarqawi was the perpetrator, why did he bother to cover it the whole time? If Al-Zarqawi is trying to build a resistance movement, why did he not uncover his face at some point? (If it was another terrorist impersonating Al-Zarqawi, why is the CIA identifying the voice as Al-Zarqawi's?)

44) Iraqi denial of "terrorists"
Iraqis who have seen the videotape on Arabic news broadcasts are universally saying the men in the film are not Iraqis. Are they saying this partly because the speaker does not employ an Iraqi dialect? Where does their certainty come from?

45) Firearms Israeli, not AK-47s
Firearms experts have stated the AK-47 carried by one man was a "Galil." This actually is an Israeli-made weapon that improves on the famous AK- 47. Feyadeen and other insurgents use AK-47s.

Berg's Activities and Return of the Body

46) Berg encountered Moussaoui, an al Qaeda operative, by chance in the U.S. in 1999
The FBI has reported (CNN, FOX) that Nick Berg's e-mail account was used by the "20th hijacker" of 9-11, Zacarious Moussaoui, whose computer held evidence of the 9-11 hijackers (and could not be searched by the FBI field office because of orders from Washington). The FBI interviewed Nick Berg about Moussaoui's use of his e-mail account to send "emails" but concluded that it was entirely "coincidental." Berg had apparently given the password to his e-mail account to an acquaintance of Moussaoui who he met on a bus in 1999 in Oklahoma. (See: Berg's encounter with 'terrorist' revealed.)

47) Berg's first visit to Iraq
Source: In the Absence of Truth from the White House, Conspiracy Theories Emerge About the Nick Berg Murder in http://www.buzzflash.com letters:
"In the Seattle Post-Intelligencer (Seattle P-I), May 13, 2004, A4, appeared an AP article by Robert H. Reid entitled: "Questions over beheading victim's travel in Iraq." That article, which is not online, says: "Berg first worked in Iraq in December and January and returned in March. He was inspecting communications facilities, some of which were destroyed in the war or by looters. During his time in Iraq, he worked on a tower in Abu Ghraib, site of the prison where U.S. soldiers abused Iraqi inmates."
And from The Guardian [Questions Surround Slain American in Iraq] here is a similar reference:
Perhaps Nick saw too much when he was at the prison repairing the tower. And/or maybe that work required close collaboration with the military intelligence onsite so that he learned too much.
Also, today's NY Times article entitled: "General Took Guantanamo Rules To Iraq for Handling of Prisoners" by Tim Golden and Eric Schmitt says:
"When Major General Geoffrey D. Miller arrived in Iraq last August with a team of military police and intelligence specialists, the group was confronted by chaos."
"In one prison yard, a detainee was being held in a scorching hot shipping container as punishment, one member of the team recalled. An important communications antenna stood broken and unrepaired."

48) Work vs. no work?
It has been reported all week in the media that Nick Berg was "looking for business" for his small telecommunications business. Some of his friends in Iraq who were interviewed reportedly said "business was booming." Yet others said Nick was leaving because he "couldn't find any work."

49) Berg traveled at night
It has been reported by people who knew Nick in Iraq (interviews, major networks) that strangely enough, Nick "traveled" at night. Indeed, when Nick was initially picked up by Iraqi Police (checkpoint) he was held because of "suspicious activity."

50) Berg's family was not allowed to view the body of Berg on its arrival to the U.S.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 153
view profile
History
Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/15/2012 6:59:17 AM
Peppermint Petunias..correct.
The military, desperate for war fodder, significantly reduced it's recruiting standards, making it a haven for white supremacists and criminals, issuing "moral waivers" to fill the ranks. They have also ignored PTSD for the most part, sending damaged goods back for repeated deployments without adequate treatment or any treatment at all. Add to that, one in six serving in war zones are under the influence of psychiatric drugs, many doing combos of anti-depressants, anti-convulsants, and anti-anxiety drugs. The drugs only put a chemical mask over the PTSD effects and increase suicides, slow down responses, and put them in even greater danger. After repeated deployments and PTSD, the dehumanizing process ingrained into troops during training, can become manifest in the sort of behavior shown by these guys. Time and trials will tell what caused this particular bunch to violate ROE, conventions rules, and put their fellow troops at far greater risk as a result.

The three corpses (do we even know if they were dead?) were allegedly Taliban, but that label is applied freely to civilians as well after mistakes are made. The wheelbarrow didn't appear to be a deadly weapon.

This sort of behavior only adds to the Islamophobia here, the desecrations of mosques and Korans, Jesus Rifles, and other indications to the Islam world that we are on a Crusade against Islam, and serves only to ensure a fresh crop of new recruits in the forever war launched by PNAC.

In other news, God pissed on Tim Tebow.
 joe average
Joined: 3/25/2010
Msg: 154
Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/15/2012 9:15:26 AM
Poppeye has it right.

Now, I never said that you let the lads off the hook. No, they should be punished. Loss of pay for a week, extra duties for a specified time. And a little education on not being so stupid as to video tape your dumbass stunts.

Let us not blow this incident out of proportion.

Regards,

Joe average
 swingarm1966
Joined: 3/27/2011
Msg: 155
Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/15/2012 9:43:47 AM
Joe average sums up where we are at collectively ....Sad when Joe average does not see this as a war crime. There you have it folks, move along nothing to see here.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 156
view profile
History
Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/15/2012 9:53:40 AM
Just remember, Joe average may not often sit back and contemplate the nature of good and evil. However those that wrote the military codes of ethics did. The offense is a court-martialable offense. Regardless of how Joe Average views it.

This is why pure democracy can never work. It is unreasonable to expect Joe Average on every Main St to have a working knowledge of philosophical ethics. We hope that we can get those in leadership positions that at least have some concept of it and we hope that the primary laws that we follow were based on the best that we could come up with at the time.

Don't lose faith in people just yet. :) We suck but not in the entirety.
 MOTD2010
Joined: 5/18/2010
Msg: 157
Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/15/2012 10:27:08 AM
There is always this problem to deal with in any conflict. In order for normal people to kill other people they don't even know the only way to do this is rationalize them to be sub human, savages etc.etc. So it shouldn't be any surprise that for some individuals the programming they received causes them to do something over the top.

All they did was increase recruitment of more Taliban. It should be noted that some of those guys are snipers, they are carrying a sniper rifle and one of the ones with a helmet on is wearing the style used by snipers and spotters.

I'd be willing to bet when the facts come out, these will not be guys that are real young and they will be guys with multiple tours, maybe even NCOs.

Once they get discharged they'll probably come home and become police officers.
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 158
Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/15/2012 11:11:13 AM
I'd be willing to bet when the facts come out, these will not be guys that are real young and they will be guys with multiple tours, maybe even NCOs.

Once they get discharged they'll probably come home and become police officers.


That seems to me to be a sure bet!

To me one of the most disturbing aspects of this incident is the timing of its release. From the reports I have read these people returned from Afghanistan a few months ago. I am sure that they know that what they did in Afghanistan was wrong and it would not help the US efforts in the war. So why did the video appeared just now?

If they were going to post it in the Internet anyways, why didn't they do that much sooner? Why wait until now.

If you are asking yourself why I am questioning the timing of the video release, let me remind you of a couple of facts:

1. The US government is making a serious effort of bringing the Taliban and the Karzai government to the peace negotiation table.

2. The current US administration just announced a few days ago that there will be significant cuts in the military budget and the personnel numbers in the military will be cut significantly, including the Marines.

If the release of this video results in a renewed insurgency and a long rebellion of the people in Afghanistan against the American occupation, then the Marines involved in this incident, and those that released this video have acted in this manner to sabotage the work of the US government. That seems like treason to me.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 159
view profile
History
Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/15/2012 11:23:20 AM

If the release of this video results in a renewed insurgency and a long rebellion of the people in Afghanistan against the American occupation, then the Marines involved in this incident, and those that released this video have acted in this manner to boycott the work of the US government. That seems like treason to me.


Love the theory. And this is why we have to stop voting for idiots that think the government needs to be bigger and have more direct control over how people think / act / and conduct their lives.

Like it or not, what you are inferring is that the current administration has created an environment where treason is a possibility. That would be the result of a very poorly functioning administration. There is someone that would be accountable for that.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 160
view profile
History
Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/15/2012 11:27:39 AM
The threat of the Forever War winding down is scaring the shit out of the Offense Industry. That theory for the motivation of release timing may have validity.

I don't think that troop levels in the Middle East will change much. Just moving the pawns around the chessboard to Israel and Libya for the next round of oil wars.
 OutofControlMan
Joined: 12/22/2011
Msg: 161
Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/15/2012 11:31:05 AM

Once they get discharged they'll probably come home and become police officers.


true, and be the next involved in a "Rodney King" type incident where 10-12 cops lay a beating on one unarmed guy using riot sticks/nightsticks &/or Tasers. OR like the 4 RCMP who Tasered the unarmed, passive Robert Dziekanski to death at Vancouver airport


"don't Tase me, bro"..

cops & some military do have the bully tendencies.


but do not worry, USMC high command has a plan to make sure this kind of thing can NEVER happen again:

-confiscate all cameras and cell phones with camera/ or vid-cam capability from all deploying soldiers!
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 162
view profile
History
Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/15/2012 12:38:30 PM


If the release of this video results in a renewed insurgency and a long rebellion of the people in Afghanistan against the American occupation, then the Marines involved in this incident, and those that released this video have acted in this manner to boycott the work of the US government. That seems like treason to me.

And this is why we have to stop voting for idiots that think the government needs to be bigger and have more direct control over how people think / act / and conduct their lives.
That would be the previous administration that got us into this situation? The commanding officers who encourage thoughts and views such as that from a poster on the 1st page of this thread ... message #16? So is there any question about what our marines are doing there? Imagine all the good will they're spreading in the name of the US!! Just WOW!!!!

Atta boy! If you want the job done, call in the very efficient and selective marines ... they'll get 'er done ... and HOW!!!!

Like it or not, what you are inferring is that the current administration has created an environment where treason is a possibility.
That would only be true if it were the current administration that had "created" the the current environment ... but let's see how good your math is:
When did the US (illegally) invade the sovereign country of Afghanistan and when was the current administration put into office?

That would be the result of a very poorly functioning administration.
Very well said indeed. I would say that accurately describes "Dumbya" and his crew ... eh?

There is someone that would be accountable for that.
So you agree that they should be held prosecuted for their war crimes?

Don't you all just love it? A few moron marines whip out their "dip sticks" in order to desecrate the enemy and put the whole of the NATO forces in jeopardy. Now aren't we all proud?
 Wildcard74
Joined: 12/1/2005
Msg: 163
Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/15/2012 12:48:03 PM
@ OoCM Did you even watch Rodney King video? I'm not talking about the video on TV, I'm talking about the entire video where Rodney King resisted arrest? And where did you get 10-12 cops from? There was nowhere near that many. Even though the beating was still excessive, please get your facts straight....

Sorry for the hi-jack, but I just love it how "know it all" lefties swarm this threat and use examples with false information to further support their agenda.

As for the Marines... The only Marine I'm disgusted with is the one holding the video camera video taping that and posting it on you tube.

Keep this thread going along. I find it highly amusing as a source of entertainment.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 164
view profile
History
Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/15/2012 12:59:54 PM

So you agree that they should be held prosecuted for their war crimes?


And how about that Nobel Peace Prize. I'm very glad you feel that the current administration is doing a good job. It doesn't piss me off. My math is as good as its going to get right now and from what I can count, W was termed out and there is a new administration with full authority. So, if your happy with the direction then please continue to vote your conscience.

Be proud. Stand up for the achievements. It's normal to blame the past as being incompetent and corrupt but if you’re so confident in the current administration than you should not have any doubts that they will handle this appropriately.

Unless you still believe that Bush is in charge... maybe from the background through Skull and Bones or something.

btw... I said vote them out. I didn't say persecute. I still can't tell though, do, you support NATO over the US? So you think NATO should have the moral authority and not our administration. So, I guess that would mean, “In NATO we trust." We should print up new coins.
 vlad dracul
Joined: 4/30/2009
Msg: 165
view profile
History
Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/15/2012 1:46:41 PM
which administration is going to get the blame when the
war starts with iran?


just asking like before obama and mad hilary get more uk troops killed
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 166
Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/15/2012 2:09:43 PM

Love the theory. And this is why we have to stop voting for idiots that think the government needs to be bigger and have more direct control over how people think / act / and conduct their lives.

Like it or not, what you are inferring is that the current administration has created an environment where treason is a possibility. That would be the result of a very poorly functioning administration. There is someone that would be accountable for that.


Whoa, Man! You are even excusing treason now! Why would trying to extricate our country from involvement in a losing situation like the ill-advised occupation of Afghanistan, and bringing the nation's budget under control be creating 'an environment where treason is a possibility.'? Treason is commited by those who have an extremely high sense of entitlement, like those who think that they can dictate the policies that the government must follow.
 cotter
Joined: 10/17/2005
Msg: 167
view profile
History
Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/15/2012 2:14:42 PM

... do, you support NATO over the US?
All troops that we sucked into this are important to me. Their lives are precious and four marines pulling an asinine stunt like that don't have the right to put all the other military in Afghanistan (or anywhere else) in jeopardy.

So you think NATO should have the moral authority and not our administration.
I think the current administration is plenty moral, but unfortunately (apparently) those marines are acting out the morals of the previous administration ... you know, torture and war crimes were the duty of the day.

So, I guess that would mean, “In NATO we trust." We should print up new coins.
Sounds good to me ... anything but "in GOD we trust"!
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 168
Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/15/2012 2:19:44 PM

which administration is going to get the blame when the
war starts with iran?

just asking like before obama and mad hilary get more uk troops killed


So now the US government is responsible for the decisions made by the UK government?

For a while I was thinking that the UK was a sovereign entity, with a government that was able to determine the best path for the good of her people.

Now you are telling me that the UK government is just a puppet manipulated by the US. Is that all that remains from the once powerful empire that dominated the seven seas and brought civilization and prosperity to barbarous lands?
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 169
view profile
History
Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/15/2012 2:20:58 PM

Whoa, Man! You are even excusing treason now!


Haha way to misread. I said I liked your theory. That doesn't make your theory true. Worth investigating.... sure... Worthy of treason... I'm not in a position to make that call and neither are you.

I think you should live up to your own beliefs. Everyone that is so dead set against W considers everything he did an act of treason but excuse the current administration without conscience to the same acts. I don't consider even the current President worthy of treason. Why would I consider the last? What is sad is that most that want to hold W for war crimes want the overthrow of the American government and history for some warped idealistic notion of equality.

So, I am not sorry that I still have respect for the country, its laws, and even if I don't like him one bit I still have respect for the office of President. It feels like his values are Marxist and against what I believe in but I at least give the benefit of doubt that he isn't and that he doesn't ultimately want to see the fall of the country. It's a challenge to maintain that sometimes though. So, there is that little comfort in knowing that we do not have an authoritarian rule that liberalism loves so much and that every 4 years there is that chance of correction.

Peace and Freedom man! You should try it sometime.
 Viper1E
Joined: 11/30/2011
Msg: 170
Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/15/2012 2:28:28 PM

How do you honestly think this makes the U.S. military look? Bad. Did you ever stop and think that because of their actions that they just put more U.S. men and women that are fighting over there even at more risk now?


Did you really think they were showering us with flowers before this? What do you think the Taliban leadership did to the guys that set our bodies on fire and drug them through the streets? Probably bought some dancing girls, and gave them some free felafels, wine and medals. Try as I might, I just can't seem to give a shit.

Let's just buy everyone in the Taliban a puppy and call it a day..

On second thought, we better buy them something they won't try to eat..
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 171
Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/15/2012 2:49:19 PM


Whoa, Man! You are even excusing treason now!


Haha way to misread. I said I liked your theory. That doesn't make your theory true. Worth investigating.... sure... Worthy of treason... I'm not in a position to make that call and neither are you.


I don't think that I misread you. In case that you missed it, I was responding to your statement blaming the government for the possible act of treason that I suggested as a theory for the time of release of the video that shows some marines committing a war crime.

This is what you said:


Like it or not, what you are inferring is that the current administration has created an environment where treason is a possibility


If I read that correctly it seems as if you are saying that the traitors would be excused because the government made it possible for the traitors to act as they did. Of course all of that talk about treason is just a theory of mine, but treason (even if only in theory) seems to be excusable for you.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 172
view profile
History
Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/15/2012 3:07:19 PM

Sounds good to me ... anything but "in GOD we trust"!


Just so I'm clear... You are for a single world government then correct? Because we are a more modern society with cool toys that have blinking lights and can travel the world in just a few short hours as well as instantly communicate with anyone anywhere at any time.

The best option is for a global government that maintains the strictest of authority over all nations and reprimands all nations that fail to meet the standards right.

There is a philosophy behind your beliefs right? It's not just that America is bad. It's that all the world should operate under the same moral authority. Is that single government also going to be a democratic one? Is each nation going to be appointed a representative based on the number of people living in that nation? Are they going to vote for which laws best maintain the health and welfare of the world? Under which moral ethics will this world government operate, would that be 'any as long as it is not God?' What do you do with those country’s that still believe in God though... Do you oppress them? How do you resolve that? With a gun? I believe many South American countries may not be thrilled with your better form of rule. They do count right?

When Obama joins against Iran... moves all of these same troops to that fight... Will they all of the sudden turn into different people fighting the good fight for your purposes?

And before the point is lost, I fully support these guys being held accountable for what they chose to do.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 173
view profile
History
Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/15/2012 3:19:51 PM

If I read that correctly it seems as if you are saying that the traitors would be excused because the government made it possible for the traitors to act as they did. Of course all of that talk about treason is just a theory of mine, but treason (even if only in theory) seems to be excusable for you.


Oh, I think I get it. I was actually responding to a very specific point you made.

The current US administration just announced a few days ago that there will be significant cuts in the military budget and the personnel numbers in the military will be cut significantly, including the Marines.


So, the problem I brought up where it was the current administration that created the environment would be that his administration would have to so severally disagree with his choice that they would be willing to risk the penalty of death for treason to oppose him illegally. If that were the case a case could be made that the President completely disregarded the advice of those he holds in his administration begging him not to cut so drastically. But to go to those lengths would still be on the current administration even if Bush put them all in place. It can't be avoided as being under the current administrations responsibility. Nothing about this situation can be legally applied to the administration 3 years ago. It can be argued for some level of moral outrage but no legal distinctions would ever work because each current person would have made their own choice to act illegally in the present.


Sorry, complex topic.
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 174
Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/15/2012 3:30:29 PM

When Obama joins against Iran... moves all of these same troops to that fight... Will they all of the sudden turn into different people fighting the good fight for your purposes?


I support the president, but should he start a war against Iran then he won't have my vote in the next election. That doesn't mean that I support Iran and their belligerent talk. It only means that we shouldn't be going around starting wars with other countries just because it is good business for some people. As we know from the wars started by the previous administration, those wars were very good for Bush and Cheney's friends, but for us and for the people of the countries invaded those wars brought only misery and suffering.

When it comes to the troops, they are supposed to obey their superior's orders, as long as they are not ordered to commit war crimes. The soldiers have a right not to comply with illegal orders from their superiors.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 175
view profile
History
Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter
Posted: 1/15/2012 4:12:24 PM

I support the president, but should he start a war against Iran then he won't have my vote in the next election.


And I can't make my mind up between Ron Paul's desire to pull out everywhere and reality that says we can't. Both have legitimate points that don't include war profiteering.

Something difficult to account for in starting a war for good purposes. If you start a legitimate war because of a legitimate threat and you are in the right and you win. In capitalism the defeated country will end up being an economic partner and it is not required to destroy that countries culture. Peace is maintained through economic dependence. It will always appear that the war was done for the taking of that countries resources. Even if it wasn't the case.

The best example I can think of for that would be Japan.

If we end up leaving Iraq, Afghanistan, and even threw Iran into the mix and they still retained legal authority over their own lives and there are economic benefits that we retained and some % of them will always hate us and hope for our deaths but they still live their lives... I don't know.... Do you see the problem? Is the best option to pull it all back and let nature take its course and just hand over instructions to a nuclear bomb to everyone and say, “don't do this please?"

The whole situation has been severely screwed up out there for well over a thousand years. Even if we have good intentions we screw it up. Yet it can't ever seem to be ignored either.

Things are never as easy or clear cut as they should be.

Economic dependence is a brilliant means of keeping peace. It will appear that it is for the plundering of resources to those inclined to see it that way. If you consider what other possible alternatives there are... There are not many that do not include the total destruction of the enemy.
Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > Marines Urinating On Dead Taliban Fighter [closed]