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 want to travel
Joined: 7/29/2006
Msg: 52
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History
The Decline And Fall Of The United States Of AmericaPage 3 of 7    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7)
The USA, can not get out of debt, fact!!!
the problem is a certain , anarchistic form of corporate capitalism has tacken over and has trashed democracy
anarchy is living without rules, or governing ideals
since the 1980, big capitalism has done everything to get rid of regulations, finally virtually no rules where left by the bush years
so the corporation did whatever they thought would make them money
this system fell apart by 2008
the average family worker, had to 'bail' them out
the problem is that the normal everyday people are already in so much debt,to the government, and the USA has the highest rate of personal debt of any developed country the people can not afford to bail anything out!!

here is a simple question, how much money does it cost to run for president
millions
until this changes, the USA will never regain its democrac
and the government will serve whoever was there benefactor
 statemachine500
Joined: 8/25/2011
Msg: 53
The Decline And Fall Of The United States Of America
Posted: 2/3/2012 6:18:31 PM
[quote'>We aren't an empire. We are a country.

Yes,a different approach from Britain's which still held colonies in Africa after WWII.


<div class="quote">. We aren't taking over new landmasses and slapping down our flags saying "mine" as we travel through.

As noted above. America extended credit to post WWII countries,this facilitated trade.And extended control through debt.


<div class="quote"> I haven't seen America push into Canada and take over yet - have you? Of course you haven't. This country is nothing like that and you knew it when you typed that drivel.

America has bought up many formerly Canadian companies,as predicted by John Turner at the onset of 'free trade"


<div class="quote">.All it would take is slight belt tightening and we would be profitable. I see American citizens asking for that all the time but I also see them sticking their hands out for anything they can get for free.

Maybe you ought to be running the country,you seem to have the answers.America has been going deeper into debt for what,more than 50 years?And you could turn it around like a small car?Eisenhower warned about the perils of the military industrial complex as he was about to leave office in 1960.
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 54
The Decline And Fall Of The United States Of America
Posted: 2/3/2012 8:06:33 PM
@veevee


We aren't an empire. We are a country.


We are not an empire? you've gotta be kidding right (i hope so for your sake)?
this country was built on economic imperialism; 1} we imported slaves from africa for cheap labor to build up the infrastructure 2} In passing, businesses were allowed to abuse the services of recent immigrants in the early half of the 20th century to the extreme (child labor; poor & unsafe working condition; paltry pay, etc) 3)In the post-war period, the focus was shifted to globalism; We were able to do in 3rd world countries what we could longer do in the US to such an extent that we squashed incipient democracies and propped up dictators (who we could control) pay them off generously so we could exploit their resources and cheap labor; en masse! How else could this country have risen from a small collection of towns made of log cabins to cities that first erected the tallest buildings in the world in a little over 200 years? What has been done in such a short time could come down like a house of cards in no time!


The past doesn't predict the future unless there are equal factors at work. We don't have vassals that we treat as secondaries in this country which is the main problem with "empires". We aren't taking over new landmasses and slapping down our flags saying "mine" as we travel through.


But there are near equal factors at work; only the blind can't see them! we have hordes of non documented migrants (both criminal and non criminal elements) slipping through our borders daily much like the Romans did. The Romans at least had the will to halt this but not the means; though we have the means to stop it, we don't have the will!. Nobody complains much about it because of the symbiotic relation they bring, as they are the new age vassals doing the dirty jobs for us; but as the numbers grow and they will comprise a substantial number among the underclass who already have put an enormous strain on our social services; as they put nothing back into the system( via taxation) and will eventually serve as another(of many other) big weights for the legal component of our society to bear; We are already seeing this affect with our Medicaid program, who now targets the elderly for cuts as they are the most vulnerable. I'm not going to even go into the large underground economy involving drugs and other contraband that is enlarging; while the legal economy is stagnating! If this isn't "writing on the wall" then I don't know what is!


I haven't seen America push into Canada and take over yet - have you?


American business and enterprise control a good part of the Canadian market; which was done a long time ago. Thus, We do not need to send an Army across the border.


Even if this country did crumble - who in the hell thinks they can take on all 300,000,000+ of us and treat us as their sub-nation. No one has the military power to do it and we carry guns.


Boy are you totally out to lunch! It isn't a question of who will (or could) subjugate all 300 million of us; When the economy and infrastructure implodes, we will BREAK up into factions (much like its happened to all large countries & empires in their down fall). Each faction will be determined by the composition of the pple, their outlook, political views and resources available to them. Some factions will lose power and get absorbed by another stronger faction; and others may fuse & grow and become successfully sovereign nations slowly rising from the ashes of what was a large crumbling country. This framework is already in place; all we need is some kind of cataclysm to set it off!
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 55
The Decline And Fall Of The United States Of America
Posted: 2/3/2012 8:36:32 PM
The deficit and debt are relatively small problems - you just need to repeal the Bush tax cuts. Remember that he brought those in because you were running huge surpluses every year. And the sooner the better - the longer this goes on, the deeper a hole you have to climb out of. You may even need to raise taxes a little higher than they were in the 90's since you now have all the extra debt that needs servicing.

But there's plenty of capacity for that. Your rates are just artificially low. And you have right wing politicians in both parties telling you what you want to hear: "Tax cuts pay for themselves"; "Government's too big". It's all nonsense - just recent history will show you that tax cuts don't pay for themselves, and if the government can't enforce laws, then criminals will flourish in the financial industry, agriculture, industry, etc. Your government is too small.
 want to travel
Joined: 7/29/2006
Msg: 56
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History
The Decline And Fall Of The United States Of America
Posted: 2/4/2012 9:35:56 AM
No matter what the USA does, it can not pull out of her debt
it is a fact, can you imagine what would happen if,lets say china, called in 10% of the debt, wall street would crash
in the last few decades, the USA has de industrialised, the middle class is falling apart
as far as not being an empire,I do not think anybody with a mind can say, the USA isnt one
after ww2, as the last european empires fell
the USA, and USSR, technically just had independent countries orbiting them
but the truth is it was imperialistic control over the weak, and the very same type of exploitation that empires had
the British went broke,so did the french,the USSR, could not keep up with American spending, and fell
the USA has already fallen
states (Cali) run out of money all the time, the iner cities are rotting,in every way possible the USA is in decline
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 57
The Decline And Fall Of The United States Of America
Posted: 2/4/2012 8:42:08 PM

Well since none of you can provide any evidence of this


Naaah, I guess nobody can, and because of that; I can now sleep good at night in knowing that we are "too big to fail"
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 58
The Decline And Fall Of The United States Of America
Posted: 2/4/2012 8:52:50 PM
At the end of WW II the US had something like 80% of the world's industrial capacity. Now obviously that wasn't going to be a permanent position. So the US has been in decline from that lofty perch since then.

That said, the United States will remain a great power for the foreseeable future. It won't be the only great power. And in order to keep spending as much on the military as the rest of the world combined you'll need a healthy economy and higher taxes. For a healthy economy, you'll need to spend on education, infrastructure, health care (industries where workers are in demand, like technology, can go anywhere. If it costs $50,000 more to insure a worker in California than it does in Ontario or England, companies will have the work done there). So you really need to get over this whole "taxation is theft" mantra if you want to stay in the game. But America has overcome far bigger problems than that.
 want to travel
Joined: 7/29/2006
Msg: 59
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History
The Decline And Fall Of The United States Of America
Posted: 2/5/2012 1:16:21 PM
OH really, could someone tell me WHEN the USA was in such bad shape???
I do agree, that the US will still be a power,but not a super power!
 statemachine500
Joined: 8/25/2011
Msg: 60
The Decline And Fall Of The United States Of America
Posted: 2/5/2012 7:36:51 PM

No matter what the USA does, it can not pull out of her debt
it is a fact, can you imagine what would happen if,lets say china, called in 10% of the debt, wall street would crash


I believe the U.S would ignore them



.in the last few decades, the USA has de industrialised, the middle class is falling apart


The elite realized they could make greater profits manufacturing abroad.Sell to affluent Americans.And even register their corporations in tax havens.Britain is having the same problem.


the USA, and USSR, technically just had independent countries orbiting them
but the truth is it was imperialistic control over the weak, and the very same type of exploitation that empires had


They would extend aid(credit)normally tied to goods purchased(weapons?)or whatever.

The biggest problem that I can see with what has happened to the economy is that for too long people assumed that these changes would only affect OTHER people.If you want to sell in the North American market you must manufacture and register your corporation in NA and not some little tax haven with armies of accountants fiddling the books.I guess Romney closed out his Swiss bank account.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 61
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History
The Decline And Fall Of The United States Of America
Posted: 2/6/2012 3:10:30 AM
Americans also got fat, lazy and chemically dependent on fossil fuels, chemicals, and the giant looming threat of our nuclear arsenal hanging over the world.

It was only a couple generations ago that people did most of the work on farms, most of the "peace keeping", and actually made goods for each other. Now we depend on the hard labor of others and resent those who migrate here to do our work for us, and those we are indebted to abroad who do such work. We can't afford, or are unwilling to pay for most goods that we once produced ourselves. We're too cheap, and since we offshored most of the work, we don't have enough jobs and money to keep the domestic work treadmill working.

The workship of the rich and cowtowing to their every wish and whim has turned our empire into a laughable failure. Philosopher Carlin put it in perspective.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acLW1vFO-2Q
 statemachine500
Joined: 8/25/2011
Msg: 62
The Decline And Fall Of The United States Of America
Posted: 2/6/2012 6:36:53 PM

Coincidence? Hardly. The US can work its way out of the hole it is in, but two things have to happen:

1. We have to stop spending more than we take in, and work from the premise of a balanced budget.

2. We have to make it so manufacturing can't wait to start up again, HERE, in the USA.


Very simple, really is.

Paul K.



The only Rep that could possibly make that happen would be Ron Paul and the "elite"don't care for him.Keep dreaming.
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 63
The Decline And Fall Of The United States Of America
Posted: 2/6/2012 7:13:30 PM

Some say raise taxes........... BUUHHHZZZZZZZZZ. wrong answer, but then it is the simplest answer, so those that think simply will always go there.........

Yes it would be stupid to increase the amount money coming in when you do not have enough money coming in.

It would also be dumb to look at historical tax rates and the performance of the economy, because facts are stupid.




The only way that any country can work its way out of a financial hole is to manufacture...... Yep, take a piece of metal that you paid $1.00 for, and make it into something that is VALUED at and SOLD for $10.00. Then do it over and over and over............... Once this process starts, then the size of the whole financial pie will increase in diameter, and the money taken in by the dumbasses in govt. will increase exponentially.

That is amazing you just solved it, just make stuff for money.

Have you written the White house yet?

How are you not a billionaire?




The reason I call them dumbasses, is because they are, and they will do everything they can, everytime, to try to stop the growth...

Considering American corporations are taking in record profits I would assume you are calling them dumb-asses because they are doing a pretty crappy job at stopping the growth.




You want THE perfect example of that? Here it is....... As long as BJ boy Clinton stayed out of the way, we were doing FANTASTIC, but he just couldn't prevent himself from starting the beginning of the downfall by syccing Janet Reno on Micro soft for a bogus reason. THAT was the start of the downfall. Notice, at the time, Microsoft was the ONLY Fortune 500 company that did not have a lobbying office in DC....... As soon as they established one, and spread about $600K around, the charges were "resolved" in one way or another.

I would like to respond to that but my Tin Foil hat is at the cleaners.

Do you make this stuff up or do you come up with it all on your own?





The only Rep that could possibly make that happen would be Ron Paul and the "elite"don't care for him.Keep dreaming.

if by elite you mean non-racist you would be correct.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 64
The Decline And Fall Of The United States Of America
Posted: 2/7/2012 12:37:24 PM
Nobody is talking about redistribution of wealth. We are talking about a deficit problem. Contrary to what you might think, you don't have an over spending problem. You're just not taking in enough revenue. That's easy to fix - when Romney can make 45 million and pay 13.5% taxes, clearly the tax code favours the rich. Just clean up all the sweetheart deals they snuck in there, and get the rates to a realistic level.

To get manufacturing setting up, you need to protect your market a little bit. That means that American companies will lose some intellectual property protection though. Your government has been trading access to the American market for patent and trademark protection for longer than either of us has been alive. I'll give you an example: in the 80's we had a government that committed to getting the NAFTA treaty negotiated. Before Reagan's government would even step up to the table, we had to offer the same patent protection to drugs that you did - at that time drug patents were only good for 7 years in this country.

You can't start offering prison labour to factory owners (though some Governors are trying) and you can't pay $1.50 a day. So you're not going to compete with China on wages. And they really don't care what the corporate tax rate is - that's only paid by head office in the country the company is based. Costs, and access to market are the two big issues. You can't compete on costs, and the US is the biggest consumer market in the world.
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 65
The Decline And Fall Of The United States Of America
Posted: 2/7/2012 12:51:37 PM

There it is........ the solution for the problem......... well, kinda. I know you would love to believe that is the correct solution, but you forgot, or intentionally ignored the rest of the problem, which I addressed. And that is the problem of SPENDING. You can double the intake, but if you keep on spending inline with your increased income, the net effect is ZERO...................

Spending is only part of the problem and it has less to do with how much has been spent and more to do with who it is being spent with.

Because you would have to fail Economics 101 not to understand that spending money is good for the economy.

Now where the problem is, most of that spending increase has been to people who frankly do not need the money and only horde it away in offshore accounts and thus little to no taxes ever get paid.

Now if more of those fund where redirected at people who actually need help, then you see an immediate uptick in the economy because those people take that money and put it right back into the economy.




You see......... part ONE is fixing the overspending problem.......... Part TWO is making the USA a place where manufacturing wants to be. THIS is probably harder than part one, because it would require a business friendly political climate, instead of one where the "leader" believes in re-distribution of wealth. As much as you LOVE the re-distribution of wealth, it is an outdated, and dis-proved economic model that some still choose to cling to, for some unrational reason or another.

Did you possibly have a nap between 2000 - 20008, or you just refuse to admit that Bush's economic policies combined with his off the books borrowing from China are a big part of the problem that the US is facing today.




By the way, the chronology of events vis a vie Micro Soft and the govt is exactly as I put it........ feel free to disprove it.

Sorry I can only disprove things that have been shown to have a shred of evidence.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 66
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History
The Decline And Fall Of The United States Of America
Posted: 2/7/2012 2:02:31 PM
Sorry Paul, you usually do well, but you blew this one.

The U.S. lawsuit against Microsoft began in 1991, two years before Clinton was elected. If you want to blame that on someone other than Microsoft (they were the ones who had repeatedly broken the law, been judged in the wrong, fined, and refused to comply with the law), you'll have to blame the Senior George Bush. He was the President then.

As for the level of the debt at the moment Bush 2 left, and now, you should know better than to claim that the New President even CAN take immediate control over Government spending. That's in Congress' hands to begin with, and further, the budget and spending that happens during the first year of any given congressman, Senator, or President, is set by the PREVIOUS years guys.

I humbly request that you demonstrate more respect for the leader of this country, by putting an end to your silly insistence on referring to Obama as you do. It just makes YOU look foolish and thoughtless, which I know that you are not.
 OutofControlMan
Joined: 12/22/2011
Msg: 67
The Decline And Fall Of The United States Of America
Posted: 2/7/2012 2:07:04 PM
^^

you seem bound & determined to place all ills on Clinton (A Democrat, by the way) the political party have any bearing on our views/assertions? no partisanship here by any chance at all?

there have been other large anti-trust cases launched by US DOJ, but you think they had NOTHING to do with the decline of US- only the CLINTON-launched Microsoft one?

there were hundreds of anti-trust cases pursued in oil, steel, aluminum, tobacco, etc. over the years..At one point in history, Kodak has controlled as much as 96% of the film and camera market in the United States. Through the years, Kodak has seen and weathered several antitrust suits and claims brought by both private and federal parties. The two suits that would shape and reinforce antitrust law in the United States were brought on by the U.S. Government In 1921 and in 1954 and would result in two consent decrees. In accordance with the 1921 decree, Kodak agreed to not sell private-label film – it was disbarred from selling film under any other label but it’s own. In 1954, following the development of its’ Kodacolor film, Kodak’s became not only the only manufacturer and seller of Kodacolor, it was also the only company that knew how to process the film as well – and parlayed that into its’ business strategy. As part of the purchase cost of Kodacolor, Kodak included a fee that would allow the customer to send in the film for processing and delivery. Accused that the “tying” together of the film and the finished product constituted a violation of the Sherman Act, Kodak was forced to license the color finishing process to third parties.

Nixon/Ford (Republicans) : In 1974, Attorney General Willam Saxbe filed suit against AT&T. Seven years and four Attorney Generals would pass before AT&T and the Department of Justice would enter into a stipulation settling the case between the two parties.

huge companies were previously sued for anti-trust violation, Standard Oil - . the suit broke up a massively profitable and innovative corporation into 34 separate, competing companies. Secondly, the application and upholding of the Sherman Act by the Supreme Court created the vital precedent for all future cases to be prosecuted under. Alcoa, US Steel also were sued (though Steel won the case after years-long fight in court)

again, Nixon, (Republican) IBM's dominant market share in the mid-1960s led to antitrust inquiries by the U.S. Department of Justice, which filed a complaint for the case U.S. v. IBM in the United States District Court for the Southern District of New York, on January 17, 1969. The suit alleged that IBM violated the Section 2 of the Sherman Act by monopolizing or attempting to monopolize the general purpose electronic digital computer system market, specifically computers designed primarily for business. The case dragged out for 13 years, turning into a resource-sapping war of attrition. In 1982, the Justice Department finally concluded that the case was “without merit” and dropped it, But having to operate under the pall of antitrust litigation significantly impacted IBM's business decisions and operations during all of the 1970s and a good portion of the 1980s.

IBM had to operate under "anti-trust rules essentially for 13 years until finally winning its case in 1982.

also for many years through the 1940's 1950's, 1960's- into the '70's General Motors purposely tried NOT to grow their market too large, worried that DOJ would step in and bust them up if they got to over 50% of the US car market, which they were close to several times. they likely could have forced both Chrysler & Ford into bankruptcy with aggressive or "predatory " pricing, but chose not to- what would be the point since DOJ would just come along and bust them up if they got "too large" anyway?
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 68
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History
The Decline And Fall Of The United States Of America
Posted: 2/7/2012 3:05:15 PM
Actually, the "anti-leftists" love to pretend that rich people's money is being taxed twice. It's not true. Or rather, if you want to play that game thoroughly, everyone's money gets taxed over and over again.

This is because it isn't the money that is being taxed. It is the movement of the money that is taxed.

Enough with the nonsense.
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 69
The Decline And Fall Of The United States Of America
Posted: 2/8/2012 12:49:26 PM

Hey Mr. Buffett, if you really think you are UNDERTAXED, write the God Damned Check for a larger amount that they tell you to. UNTIL you do so, shut your mouth. Do something unusual, lead from the front, instead of telling Others how to spend Their Money

Congratulations on your rant and subsequent fail.

I guess you did not know that Buffett said he will match voluntary tax contributions from Republican members of Congress, and triple that of the Senate Republican leader.
 statemachine500
Joined: 8/25/2011
Msg: 70
The Decline And Fall Of The United States Of America
Posted: 2/9/2012 6:06:17 PM
IIRC,shortly after Microsoft settled with the gov,a Canadian discovered that unlisted back door key to get into any machine....NSK was it called?

Seems most of these reps feel that just tossing Obama will solve all the problems.The political climate doesn't have much to do with whether a business man feels he can manufacture and make a profit in the U.S.Free trade is the new colonialism,people can simply make more money in underdeveloped markets.Did anybody mention how much money is spent projecting power in the middle east?But heh,it keeps the military industrial complex humming,lots of high tech jobs in that sector.

I think the U.S is paralyzed by all the greedy,lying people in government who can't see past the statement of their net worth and will flee the U.S for greener pastures when things really start to crumble.
 DameWrite
Joined: 2/27/2010
Msg: 71
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History
The Decline And Fall Of The United States Of America
Posted: 2/9/2012 7:57:26 PM
I do not believe the average American is responsible for the demise of the U.S. of A. The bankers, religious nuts and the control freaks are and always have been.
I do believe the average American should be held responsible if they continue to allow the abuse to continue, since information of what went on and what is going on is available.
Same goes for Canada and any other nation that has access to the internet.
 statemachine500
Joined: 8/25/2011
Msg: 72
The Decline And Fall Of The United States Of America
Posted: 2/10/2012 4:48:20 PM

I do not believe the average American is responsible for the demise of the U.S. of A. The bankers, religious nuts and the control freaks are and always have been.
I do believe the average American should be held responsible if they continue to allow the abuse to continue, since information of what went on and what is going on is available.
Same goes for Canada and any other nation that has access to the internet.


And I believe you are correct.But how will Americans turn this around when so many are fooled,Canada having the same problem btw.You only have one rep candidate who puts AMERICA absolutely first...Ron Paul....and the elite don't want him.
 usernonymous
Joined: 8/18/2011
Msg: 73
The Decline And Fall Of The United States Of America
Posted: 2/10/2012 9:31:32 PM
Blame Clinton, Blame Obama...even blame Bush. The truth is that there is little difference between both parties. They may have different ideologues but the truth is that they are in it for their friends and their base. They are popularists.

The sad thing, there is ONE person who is willing to go to bat for America and not care what the left or the right think. That person is Ron Paul. But neither Democrat or Republican would have him.

The truth is that most Americans talk about reducing the debt, but no one would be willing to do what it took to get the debt down to a reasonable level. The truth is that to get the debt down you have to severely shrink the size of the government AND increase revenues through increased taxation. That means most Americans making over $50K would have to contribute more in taxes and eliminating loopholes and subsidies (and those 49% not paying federal taxes would start having too) while no longer getting the services that we have become used to.

That would mean reducing our military across the world, lower social security benefits, raising the retirement age, reducing the number of people who can go on Medicare and Mediaid and dropping certain services that aren't "life-saving".

It is easy for us to say we need to do more. The truth is that most people would freak out if they were told to do their part. Even tea partiers would be shocked and probably outraged on how much many of them rely on the government for services.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 74
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History
The Decline And Fall Of The United States Of America
Posted: 2/11/2012 8:42:13 AM
The problems we face as a country are wildly more involved than I've seen anyone here, or in the media, and certainly not in the political field, admit.

Just in terms of the financials:

The "right" is correct that you can't raise taxes to accomplish everything, but they seem to think that you can, simply cut all spending. The "left" might be ignoring costs, but the "right" ignores ho the elimination of the government expenditures they don't like, will reduce everyone's quality of life.

Essentially, everyone thinks they can get away with altering the half of the equation on ONE side of the equals sign, without affecting everything on the other side of it at all.

As long as the political struggle here continues to be over which side of the equation to ignore, we will continue to decline, and to fight amongst ourselves.

Most important thing the "right" needs to recognize: you can't reduce or eliminate wages and benefits to the working class, unless you also directly reduce those peoples costs of living. But since that means that THEY have to surrender their own wealth, derived from real estate and from providing high-cost services, they wont do what it takes to balance the equation.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 75
The Decline And Fall Of The United States Of America
Posted: 2/11/2012 1:28:09 PM
If you look further into the writings of Thomas Jefferson, you'll also see that he believed that corporations should be only allowed under very limited circumstances and very tight controls. He wasn't the laissez faire philosopher you might wish he was.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 76
The Decline And Fall Of The United States Of America
Posted: 2/11/2012 1:40:23 PM
I'll give you some quotes then:
“I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies.”

"The tax which will be paid for education is not more than the thousandth part of what will be paid
to kings, priests and nobles who will rise up if we leave the people to ignorance."

"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."

“I hope we shall crush… in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country."

I threw the Christianity one in there just to piss off some people.
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