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 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 64
The Decline And Fall Of The United States Of AmericaPage 5 of 7    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7)
Nobody is talking about redistribution of wealth. We are talking about a deficit problem. Contrary to what you might think, you don't have an over spending problem. You're just not taking in enough revenue. That's easy to fix - when Romney can make 45 million and pay 13.5% taxes, clearly the tax code favours the rich. Just clean up all the sweetheart deals they snuck in there, and get the rates to a realistic level.

To get manufacturing setting up, you need to protect your market a little bit. That means that American companies will lose some intellectual property protection though. Your government has been trading access to the American market for patent and trademark protection for longer than either of us has been alive. I'll give you an example: in the 80's we had a government that committed to getting the NAFTA treaty negotiated. Before Reagan's government would even step up to the table, we had to offer the same patent protection to drugs that you did - at that time drug patents were only good for 7 years in this country.

You can't start offering prison labour to factory owners (though some Governors are trying) and you can't pay $1.50 a day. So you're not going to compete with China on wages. And they really don't care what the corporate tax rate is - that's only paid by head office in the country the company is based. Costs, and access to market are the two big issues. You can't compete on costs, and the US is the biggest consumer market in the world.
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 65
The Decline And Fall Of The United States Of America
Posted: 2/7/2012 12:51:37 PM

There it is........ the solution for the problem......... well, kinda. I know you would love to believe that is the correct solution, but you forgot, or intentionally ignored the rest of the problem, which I addressed. And that is the problem of SPENDING. You can double the intake, but if you keep on spending inline with your increased income, the net effect is ZERO...................

Spending is only part of the problem and it has less to do with how much has been spent and more to do with who it is being spent with.

Because you would have to fail Economics 101 not to understand that spending money is good for the economy.

Now where the problem is, most of that spending increase has been to people who frankly do not need the money and only horde it away in offshore accounts and thus little to no taxes ever get paid.

Now if more of those fund where redirected at people who actually need help, then you see an immediate uptick in the economy because those people take that money and put it right back into the economy.




You see......... part ONE is fixing the overspending problem.......... Part TWO is making the USA a place where manufacturing wants to be. THIS is probably harder than part one, because it would require a business friendly political climate, instead of one where the "leader" believes in re-distribution of wealth. As much as you LOVE the re-distribution of wealth, it is an outdated, and dis-proved economic model that some still choose to cling to, for some unrational reason or another.

Did you possibly have a nap between 2000 - 20008, or you just refuse to admit that Bush's economic policies combined with his off the books borrowing from China are a big part of the problem that the US is facing today.




By the way, the chronology of events vis a vie Micro Soft and the govt is exactly as I put it........ feel free to disprove it.

Sorry I can only disprove things that have been shown to have a shred of evidence.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 66
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History
The Decline And Fall Of The United States Of America
Posted: 2/7/2012 2:02:31 PM
Sorry Paul, you usually do well, but you blew this one.

The U.S. lawsuit against Microsoft began in 1991, two years before Clinton was elected. If you want to blame that on someone other than Microsoft (they were the ones who had repeatedly broken the law, been judged in the wrong, fined, and refused to comply with the law), you'll have to blame the Senior George Bush. He was the President then.

As for the level of the debt at the moment Bush 2 left, and now, you should know better than to claim that the New President even CAN take immediate control over Government spending. That's in Congress' hands to begin with, and further, the budget and spending that happens during the first year of any given congressman, Senator, or President, is set by the PREVIOUS years guys.

I humbly request that you demonstrate more respect for the leader of this country, by putting an end to your silly insistence on referring to Obama as you do. It just makes YOU look foolish and thoughtless, which I know that you are not.
 OutofControlMan
Joined: 12/22/2011
Msg: 67
The Decline And Fall Of The United States Of America
Posted: 2/7/2012 2:07:04 PM
^^

you seem bound & determined to place all ills on Clinton (A Democrat, by the way) the political party have any bearing on our views/assertions? no partisanship here by any chance at all?

there have been other large anti-trust cases launched by US DOJ, but you think they had NOTHING to do with the decline of US- only the CLINTON-launched Microsoft one?

there were hundreds of anti-trust cases pursued in oil, steel, aluminum, tobacco, etc. over the years..At one point in history, Kodak has controlled as much as 96% of the film and camera market in the United States. Through the years, Kodak has seen and weathered several antitrust suits and claims brought by both private and federal parties. The two suits that would shape and reinforce antitrust law in the United States were brought on by the U.S. Government In 1921 and in 1954 and would result in two consent decrees. In accordance with the 1921 decree, Kodak agreed to not sell private-label film – it was disbarred from selling film under any other label but it’s own. In 1954, following the development of its’ Kodacolor film, Kodak’s became not only the only manufacturer and seller of Kodacolor, it was also the only company that knew how to process the film as well – and parlayed that into its’ business strategy. As part of the purchase cost of Kodacolor, Kodak included a fee that would allow the customer to send in the film for processing and delivery. Accused that the “tying” together of the film and the finished product constituted a violation of the Sherman Act, Kodak was forced to license the color finishing process to third parties.

Nixon/Ford (Republicans) : In 1974, Attorney General Willam Saxbe filed suit against AT&T. Seven years and four Attorney Generals would pass before AT&T and the Department of Justice would enter into a stipulation settling the case between the two parties.

huge companies were previously sued for anti-trust violation, Standard Oil - . the suit broke up a massively profitable and innovative corporation into 34 separate, competing companies. Secondly, the application and upholding of the Sherman Act by the Supreme Court created the vital precedent for all future cases to be prosecuted under. Alcoa, US Steel also were sued (though Steel won the case after years-long fight in court)

again, Nixon, (Republican) IBM's dominant market share in the mid-1960s led to antitrust inquiries by the U.S. Department of Justice, which filed a complaint for the case U.S. v. IBM in the United States District Court for the Southern District of New York, on January 17, 1969. The suit alleged that IBM violated the Section 2 of the Sherman Act by monopolizing or attempting to monopolize the general purpose electronic digital computer system market, specifically computers designed primarily for business. The case dragged out for 13 years, turning into a resource-sapping war of attrition. In 1982, the Justice Department finally concluded that the case was “without merit” and dropped it, But having to operate under the pall of antitrust litigation significantly impacted IBM's business decisions and operations during all of the 1970s and a good portion of the 1980s.

IBM had to operate under "anti-trust rules essentially for 13 years until finally winning its case in 1982.

also for many years through the 1940's 1950's, 1960's- into the '70's General Motors purposely tried NOT to grow their market too large, worried that DOJ would step in and bust them up if they got to over 50% of the US car market, which they were close to several times. they likely could have forced both Chrysler & Ford into bankruptcy with aggressive or "predatory " pricing, but chose not to- what would be the point since DOJ would just come along and bust them up if they got "too large" anyway?
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 68
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History
The Decline And Fall Of The United States Of America
Posted: 2/7/2012 3:05:15 PM
Actually, the "anti-leftists" love to pretend that rich people's money is being taxed twice. It's not true. Or rather, if you want to play that game thoroughly, everyone's money gets taxed over and over again.

This is because it isn't the money that is being taxed. It is the movement of the money that is taxed.

Enough with the nonsense.
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 69
The Decline And Fall Of The United States Of America
Posted: 2/8/2012 12:49:26 PM

Hey Mr. Buffett, if you really think you are UNDERTAXED, write the God Damned Check for a larger amount that they tell you to. UNTIL you do so, shut your mouth. Do something unusual, lead from the front, instead of telling Others how to spend Their Money

Congratulations on your rant and subsequent fail.

I guess you did not know that Buffett said he will match voluntary tax contributions from Republican members of Congress, and triple that of the Senate Republican leader.
 statemachine500
Joined: 8/25/2011
Msg: 70
The Decline And Fall Of The United States Of America
Posted: 2/9/2012 6:06:17 PM
IIRC,shortly after Microsoft settled with the gov,a Canadian discovered that unlisted back door key to get into any machine....NSK was it called?

Seems most of these reps feel that just tossing Obama will solve all the problems.The political climate doesn't have much to do with whether a business man feels he can manufacture and make a profit in the U.S.Free trade is the new colonialism,people can simply make more money in underdeveloped markets.Did anybody mention how much money is spent projecting power in the middle east?But heh,it keeps the military industrial complex humming,lots of high tech jobs in that sector.

I think the U.S is paralyzed by all the greedy,lying people in government who can't see past the statement of their net worth and will flee the U.S for greener pastures when things really start to crumble.
 DameWrite
Joined: 2/27/2010
Msg: 71
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History
The Decline And Fall Of The United States Of America
Posted: 2/9/2012 7:57:26 PM
I do not believe the average American is responsible for the demise of the U.S. of A. The bankers, religious nuts and the control freaks are and always have been.
I do believe the average American should be held responsible if they continue to allow the abuse to continue, since information of what went on and what is going on is available.
Same goes for Canada and any other nation that has access to the internet.
 statemachine500
Joined: 8/25/2011
Msg: 72
The Decline And Fall Of The United States Of America
Posted: 2/10/2012 4:48:20 PM

I do not believe the average American is responsible for the demise of the U.S. of A. The bankers, religious nuts and the control freaks are and always have been.
I do believe the average American should be held responsible if they continue to allow the abuse to continue, since information of what went on and what is going on is available.
Same goes for Canada and any other nation that has access to the internet.


And I believe you are correct.But how will Americans turn this around when so many are fooled,Canada having the same problem btw.You only have one rep candidate who puts AMERICA absolutely first...Ron Paul....and the elite don't want him.
 usernonymous
Joined: 8/18/2011
Msg: 73
The Decline And Fall Of The United States Of America
Posted: 2/10/2012 9:31:32 PM
Blame Clinton, Blame Obama...even blame Bush. The truth is that there is little difference between both parties. They may have different ideologues but the truth is that they are in it for their friends and their base. They are popularists.

The sad thing, there is ONE person who is willing to go to bat for America and not care what the left or the right think. That person is Ron Paul. But neither Democrat or Republican would have him.

The truth is that most Americans talk about reducing the debt, but no one would be willing to do what it took to get the debt down to a reasonable level. The truth is that to get the debt down you have to severely shrink the size of the government AND increase revenues through increased taxation. That means most Americans making over $50K would have to contribute more in taxes and eliminating loopholes and subsidies (and those 49% not paying federal taxes would start having too) while no longer getting the services that we have become used to.

That would mean reducing our military across the world, lower social security benefits, raising the retirement age, reducing the number of people who can go on Medicare and Mediaid and dropping certain services that aren't "life-saving".

It is easy for us to say we need to do more. The truth is that most people would freak out if they were told to do their part. Even tea partiers would be shocked and probably outraged on how much many of them rely on the government for services.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 74
view profile
History
The Decline And Fall Of The United States Of America
Posted: 2/11/2012 8:42:13 AM
The problems we face as a country are wildly more involved than I've seen anyone here, or in the media, and certainly not in the political field, admit.

Just in terms of the financials:

The "right" is correct that you can't raise taxes to accomplish everything, but they seem to think that you can, simply cut all spending. The "left" might be ignoring costs, but the "right" ignores ho the elimination of the government expenditures they don't like, will reduce everyone's quality of life.

Essentially, everyone thinks they can get away with altering the half of the equation on ONE side of the equals sign, without affecting everything on the other side of it at all.

As long as the political struggle here continues to be over which side of the equation to ignore, we will continue to decline, and to fight amongst ourselves.

Most important thing the "right" needs to recognize: you can't reduce or eliminate wages and benefits to the working class, unless you also directly reduce those peoples costs of living. But since that means that THEY have to surrender their own wealth, derived from real estate and from providing high-cost services, they wont do what it takes to balance the equation.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 75
The Decline And Fall Of The United States Of America
Posted: 2/11/2012 1:28:09 PM
If you look further into the writings of Thomas Jefferson, you'll also see that he believed that corporations should be only allowed under very limited circumstances and very tight controls. He wasn't the laissez faire philosopher you might wish he was.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 76
The Decline And Fall Of The United States Of America
Posted: 2/11/2012 1:40:23 PM
I'll give you some quotes then:
“I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies.”

"The tax which will be paid for education is not more than the thousandth part of what will be paid
to kings, priests and nobles who will rise up if we leave the people to ignorance."

"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."

“I hope we shall crush… in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country."

I threw the Christianity one in there just to piss off some people.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 77
The Decline And Fall Of The United States Of America
Posted: 2/11/2012 2:03:50 PM
Actually, the quote is from Jefferson. All of them are.

Nice to see you think Jefferson is a Marxist now though.

Edit: Okay, kudos to Paul. The temptation to go in and edit his post must have been overwhelming. But he let it stand as is. We may not agree on anything, but he's not a douche.
 statemachine500
Joined: 8/25/2011
Msg: 78
The Decline And Fall Of The United States Of America
Posted: 2/11/2012 6:37:31 PM

"“I hope we shall crush… in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country."


As I said earlier, Eisenhower warned upon leaving office in 1960,his fears about the military industrial complex.
 statemachine500
Joined: 8/25/2011
Msg: 79
The Decline And Fall Of The United States Of America
Posted: 2/11/2012 6:56:21 PM

Taxes should be low and the people that earn the money should be the ones to decide how to spend it.
Big government is a enemy of the people and freedom NOT the savior.


Sure they should be low.And the people or corporations that earn that money should be free to decide how they spend it.The problem is that many of the big corps only want to sell here.Not manufacture.So they set up somewhere they can pollute and exploit people with low living standards.They expect the affluence of Americans to come from some other means.It's not working.Besides weapons and some oilfield equipment and expertise,what exactly are Americans exporting that requires many man hours to produce?Some autos to Canada?Many parts of the world have caught up in manufacturing capabilities...it doesn't appear free trade is worth it....except to the very wealthy majority stockholders.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 80
view profile
History
The Decline And Fall Of The United States Of America
Posted: 2/11/2012 7:43:39 PM
“I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies.”
http://www.snopes.com/quotes/jefferson/banks.asp

FALSE


"The tax which will be paid for education is not more than the thousandth part of what will be paid
to kings, priests and nobles who will rise up if we leave the people to ignorance."
http://www.nps.gov/nr/twhp/wwwlps/lessons/92uva/92facts1.htm
Confirmed.

"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."
http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Talk:Thomas_Jefferson

A variant "I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature." seems to be spreading even more broadly on the internet, but without ANY citation of sources that I could find, and appears to be merely a somewhat casual and improper paraphrase of the more extensive statement. Until such time as a reliable sources are provided for either of these statements, I am inclined to consider them spurious. I was prompted to investigate these quotes after finding the shorter one on Wikiquote's Religion Theme page, and though long an admirer of Jefferson I could not recall ever encountering it before. I am now going to remove it from there, as probably spurious, until proven otherwise


“I hope we shall crush… in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country."
http://oll.libertyfund.org/?option=com_staticxt&staticfile=show.php%
3Ftitle=808&chapter=88352&layout=html&Itemid=27
Confirmed... But misquoted

I hope we shall take warning from the example and crush in it’s birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country

The letter was referring to European style aristocracy occurring through the corporations.

From the same letter

The sum of all religion as expressed by it’s best preacher, “fear god and love thy neighbor” contains no mystery, needs no explanation. But this wont do. It gives no scope to make dupes; priests could not live by it. Your idea of the moral obligations of governments are perfectly correct. The man who is dishonest as a statesman would be a dishonest man in any station. It is strangely absurd to suppose that a million of human beings collected together are not under the same moral laws which bind each of them separately. It is a great consolation to me that our government, as it cherishes most it’s duties to its own citizens, so is it the most exact in it’s moral conduct towards other nations. I do not believe that in the four administrations which have taken place, there has been a single instance of departure from good faith towards other nations. We may sometimes have mistaken our rights, or made an erroneous estimate of the actions of others, but no voluntary wrong can be imputed to us.


 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 81
The Decline And Fall Of The United States Of America
Posted: 2/11/2012 9:30:54 PM

“I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies.”
http://www.snopes.com/quotes/jefferson/banks.asp

FALSE

You know what I did just because I felt bad about posting an inauthentic quote? I went to the link. Wanna guess what I found there?

The link is to something that I never attributed to Jefferson. And furthermore, the actual words I quoted are sourced to Jefferson's letter to John Taylor on May 18, 1816.

As far as pretending that Jefferson was talking about European aristocracy when he explicitly said "corporations", well, I guess you just have to pretend things to be true that aren't in order to maintain your magical belief system.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 82
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History
The Decline And Fall Of The United States Of America
Posted: 2/11/2012 11:29:00 PM
The Europena Aristocracy quote said "Style" and "Corporations"
It was regarding the aristocracy style influence of the american corporations...

I'm going to assume you meant magical thinking in that I tried to relate this to modern times liberalism.

As far as the banking quote. I've seen several quotes relating to banks and the founders usually for justifications to end the fed. There are a lot of inauthentic quotes on the internet.

If you didn't attribute it to Jefferson I misread your post that 'all of the quotes' were attributed to him.

whateva

America has gone through several populist movements. I'm hoping this one will blow over as the others have.
 SweetLilGTP
Joined: 10/22/2010
Msg: 83
The Decline And Fall Of The United States Of America
Posted: 2/12/2012 3:40:36 PM
Trying to compete with third world sh*tholes may be something that could have the USA and Canada "falling" so to speak.

Why in Gods name would we want to compete with them!?

Hell; if you wanna compete with a disease invested street whore, you have to become one.



Let's stop with that nonsense
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 84
view profile
History
The Decline And Fall Of The United States Of America
Posted: 2/12/2012 4:14:30 PM
Consider that America has fallen behind China and Germany in exports. And that's not going to change.


Of course it is going to change... If we do worse we also become cheaper which makes our goods more attractive. At this point everyone is doing crappy so we are really not much worse then everyone else.

As for American manufacturing...
http://www.frbsf.org/publications/economics/letter/2011/el2011-25.html


calculations of the import content of U.S. household consumption of goods and services. A total of 88.5% of U.S. consumer spending is on items made in the United States


It feels like everything is made in China. But that just doesn't seem to be the reality.

Recognize a populist movement when you see it. When they bitch that you’re the greedy, elite, social class and demand a central resolution to those problems... it’s a populist movement...



Generally, a common theme compares "the people" against "the elite", and urges social and political system changes. It can also be defined as a rhetorical style employed by members of various political or social movements (a form of mobilization that is essentially devoid of theory).[8] It is defined by the Cambridge dictionary as "political ideas and activities that are intended to represent ordinary people's needs and wishes".


The key is that they want the central government to fix it. Not that they want the ability to fix it themselves. Not that they want to be recognized as responsible and capable. It's the evil bankers, the evil corporations, and for some reason the politicians that allow it are the ones to make it better. Fairness, equality, returning to the gold standard. Blah blah blah.
You want it to get better. Vote for someone that reduces regulations and controls Government spending.
 statemachine500
Joined: 8/25/2011
Msg: 85
The Decline And Fall Of The United States Of America
Posted: 2/12/2012 6:02:35 PM

Bi-polar government, talks about creating jobs then welcomes 125K legal immigrants a month. These are mostly third-worlders with little or no job skills. Insanity. High birth rate among our worst
specimens. I would rather see chaos via social unrest bring down this government
before the continuing slow rot. A play that can have but one ending.


This government?I seem to recall Bush junior being quite receptive....Romney as well.Do you reps ever quit blaming the black guy in office for policies you sat on your hands about during the Bush years?
 statemachine500
Joined: 8/25/2011
Msg: 86
The Decline And Fall Of The United States Of America
Posted: 2/12/2012 6:04:41 PM

As far as pretending that Jefferson was talking about European aristocracy when he explicitly said "corporations", well, I guess you just have to pretend things to be true that aren't in order to maintain your magical belief system


Good work.Revisionism on the net never ceases.Quite a few paid 'web talkers" out there as well.
 statemachine500
Joined: 8/25/2011
Msg: 87
The Decline And Fall Of The United States Of America
Posted: 2/12/2012 6:18:25 PM

calculations of the import content of U.S. household consumption of goods and services. A total of 88.5% of U.S. consumer spending is on items made in the United States


It feels like everything is made in China. But that just doesn't seem to be the reality.

Recognize a populist movement when you see it. When they **** that you’re the greedy, elite, social class and demand a central resolution to those problems... it’s a populist movement...


An automobile manufactured in America would make up a large portion of that.So you're claiming that there is not a huge amount of Chinese and Asian made goods flooding the market?Maybe in high end boutiques.Most of it is JUNK.You can't even buy American made tools in most major store chains...almost all Chinese crap.A populist movement?No...just a realization that big chains don't give a ff about anything other than maximum profit.I guess all those manufacturing jobs in the past were imaginary.

For those interested just look up how the net worth of the WalMart clan has exploded over the past decade.I don't know if they have in fact ever created any manufacturing jobs in America,I doubt it.
 statemachine500
Joined: 8/25/2011
Msg: 88
The Decline And Fall Of The United States Of America
Posted: 2/13/2012 5:36:59 PM

many of our ally nation like israel and south korea have a mandatory two year minimum government/military service policy. personally, joining the army changed my life in so many good ways that i think all americans could benifit from service. i also think that, if implemented, mandatory could help to solve some of America's top problems.
-unemployment
-obesity in youths
-bad credit

and i think more people would go to college bc of the GI bill. also service gives self discipline which could also solve a slew of other problems.

thoughts?


I think you're right.
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