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 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 28
Equal Education for ALL in the US?Page 2 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)

Good school districts are good because of the parents and bad ones are bad because of the parents

So then what are the contributing factors towards or away from being a good parent?

If you do not know that it is a cycle that a fair and balanced education system can solve then unfortunately you do not understand the problem.

The lack of social programs in poorer neighborhoods create many of these problems and then you basically have built a system that will never improve and the student are a product of a poor environment and because of that it is harder to break that cycle.

You can look at the US legal system and the privatizations of prisons, the lack of quality health care and sex education has some of the largest factors in why you have issues related to bad parenting.
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 29
Equal Education for ALL in the US?
Posted: 2/5/2012 8:19:31 AM
I have never taught school...but, this I know.

Education is like a right triangle with the teacher on one side, the parent on the other, and the child as the hypotenuse...the child is the most important factor in education...yet, if any side of that triangle fails then the whole thing fails.

Yes, parents are important, just as teachers, and willing to learn children....

Stillllll....children from the inner cities and from the most rural of areas....are being left behind to perpetuate the societies they come from...and privatization of the educational system is perhaps the dumbest solution I've heard....let's take this discussion of privatization a little further...so, poor municipality Z can only afford X $'s to spend on the private sector school...while, elite suburb Y can afford X+++$'s to fund their childrens private education...well, there you go...there's the answer....why bother even attempting to disguss equality and equal access...which is guarentee'd by the constitution.
 Hands of gold
Joined: 11/12/2008
Msg: 30
view profile
History
Equal Education for ALL in the US?
Posted: 2/5/2012 8:26:36 AM
I have spent a considerable amount of time in the Canadian education system as both student and teacher. Our approach is to identify the level of each student and grow them from there. The excellent continue to excel, the medium are challenged and the weak supported with basic skills and are also challenged. This isn't easy to pull off in a class of 30 kids, but it is expected, promoted and fostered by the school boards. (at least in my experience).

There are many unmotivated students that will not get much from their education. That is their own choice. I am sure it is the same in USA. If the unmotivated population hits critical mass, then it becomes the norm and the whole school can crumble. I have seen schools like this and it isn't pretty. Whose fault? I know the teachers and principal were busting their asses for these kids, with only a few real success stories to show for it. Is this prominent in the US? Parents have a huge influence over this.


I do agree that if you refuse to pay teachers a reasonable salary, you will not get great teachers. Maybe the whole problem stems from the idea that no one in the US really wants to pay more taxes. If you don't invest in education and teachers, you get what you pay for. Canada pays their teachers decent salaries (around $80,000 for top rate). Professionals choose this occupation and treat it professionally.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 31
view profile
History
Equal Education for ALL in the US?
Posted: 2/5/2012 8:35:23 AM
WTF are you spouting off about. . . .after saying that the issues of vouchers are a state issue you place blame on our President


I do hope you'll try to maintain the civility we've come to expect from you. It complements the intelligence of your posts so well.

Last I checked, D.C. was not a state. Vouchers for public schools there are a federal issue.


because as I see it....once vouchers are issued...then the exodus from the public school will desimate public education


Doesn't sound like you think public schools could compete, if they cost the same as private ones. Considering how wonderfully our public schools are serving the public interest, I wonder why you would doubt them.


why bother even attempting to disguss equality and equal access...which is guarentee'd by the constitution.


What part of the Constitution, exactly, are you claiming guarantees "equality" and "equal access?" Equality in what, and equal access to what? I'm afraid you're imagining things--again.

vvvvv Edit below:

Are you a teacher, or teacher-to-be? Just curious.
 part deux
Joined: 11/11/2008
Msg: 32
Equal Education for ALL in the US?
Posted: 2/5/2012 8:45:05 AM
Parents in poor neighborhoods can feel intimidated by the teacher as a person in a position of authority, and feel excluded from participating. Teachers in poor neighborhoods can form prejudices towards parents, and reflect those feelings when speaking to the parents. Some teachers overwhelm parents with a laundry list of complaints about a student, without offering any solutions or alternatives. Some teachers forget that all parents love their children, but may have limited ressources or abilities.Parents in poor neighborhoods can work shifts that make parent teacher interviews difficult or impossible.
Parents in rich neighborhoods may do their childrens work for them, leading to a skewed evaluation of the students abilities. Parents in rich neighborhoods have the time and confidence to join the parents committee where they turn into dictators, strongarming teachers and principals to submit to there will on everything from teaching to materials ( despite any expertise in the area). Parents in rich neighborhoods can treat teachers like glorified babysitters, bullying teachers with legal action if the teacher fails their child. The recent rash of plagerism is highly concentrated in students from privileged backgrounds, and is of great concern to university proffessors.
A background in critical pedagogy creates teachers who can see all sides of the situation.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 33
Equal Education for ALL in the US?
Posted: 2/5/2012 9:00:54 AM
I remember reading years ago about how much schools in America depend on fund raising. Or at least the good schools - the ones in well off areas have really active parents who bring in the money for their kids' educations.

You can't, nor should you, tell parents not to be involved in the education of their children. But, if the better schools depend on private charity - which poorer schools don't have access to - then that effectively masks the deficiencies in school funding. Poor people don't set the agenda. If well off parents don't see a problem in their child's school, they don't agitate for better funding.
 want to travel
Joined: 7/29/2006
Msg: 34
view profile
History
Equal Education for ALL in the US?
Posted: 2/5/2012 12:52:42 PM
The argument of single parent, or mothers being the root cause of the failure of the american education system is a moot point

World WAR 2, europe, is in ruins,bombed, to dust, so is japan, and most of china
tens of millions of men, casualties....

they did a pretty good job of re building everything, education, cities, economies

this is proof, that it takes good government, and national will to make, or re build a country

so where is the national will of the USA?? is your government working for the people, or just some people

having so many people, maybe even half the population out of reach of decent, medical care, education, and other basics, is that the will of the people??
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 35
Equal Education for ALL in the US?
Posted: 2/5/2012 2:57:03 PM

I do hope you'll try to maintain the civility we've come to expect from you. It complements the intelligence of your posts so well.


Oh yes...we've all come to know and expect the call of liberal/communist/socialist/statist and the inference of stupidity from you...and you've the nerve to talk about civility...hypocrisy in it's finest



Last I checked, D.C. was not a state.
There are lots of black kids in D.C. who would get a far better education in private schools, if their parents were given vouchers for it. But Mr. Obama has opposed efforts to give these children that opportunity


Last I checked DC has a mayoral form of government and not governed by the president.


Doesn't sound like you think public schools could compete


Your comprehension skills are somewhat lacking...for profit private schools would drive up the cost of education beyond what is affordable for most municipalities...much like the cost of public vs private college.


What part of the Constitution, exactly, are you claiming guarantees "equality" and "equal access


29 U.S.C. Sect. 621 et seq....20 U.S.C. Sect. 4071 et seq.....20.U.S.C. Sect 1232g et seq....20 U.S.C. Sect.1400 et seq....29 U.S.C. Sect. 794 et seq....42 U.S.C. Sect 2000(d), et seq.....42 U.S.C. Sect. 1681, et seq
 Wolfpath
Joined: 1/24/2012
Msg: 36
Equal Education for ALL in the US?
Posted: 2/5/2012 3:33:56 PM
Most students in the U.S probably need Special Education at this point.
Primarily focusing on manners, common sense, determination and self empowerment

Wait . . I think thats gonna apply to most people . . .
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 37
view profile
History
Equal Education for ALL in the US?
Posted: 2/6/2012 9:38:06 AM
we've all come to know and expect the call of liberal/communist/socialist/statist and the inference of stupidity from you


Inference has nothing to do with it. Most people in the categories you mention regularly and convincingly show they are very ignorant and not very bright. To hear them talk, they are the very soul of tolerance. And yet when anyone dares question their unconvincing or outright false claims, their response is predictably nasty and personal.


29 U.S.C. Sect. 621 et seq....20 U.S.C. Sect. 4071 et seq.....20.U.S.C. Sect 1232g et seq....20 U.S.C. Sect.1400 et seq....29 U.S.C. Sect. 794 et seq....42 U.S.C. Sect 2000(d), et seq.....42 U.S.C. Sect. 1681, et seq


I can't imagine how citing sections of the United States Code responds to my question about what part of the Constitution of the United States guarantees the things you claim it does.


Your comprehension skills are somewhat lacking...for profit private schools would drive up the cost of education beyond what is affordable for most municipalities


Yes, it IS hard for me to understand your claim. You might as well claim that allowing FedEx and UPS to compete with the Post Office drives up the cost of delivering parcels beyond what most people can afford. If parents had only the same amount of money to spend each year to educate each child that government is now spending--which was the premise--why would private schools be able to charge more than that?
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 38
Equal Education for ALL in the US?
Posted: 2/6/2012 10:08:35 AM

Inference has nothing to do with it. Most people in the categories you mention regularly and convincingly show they are very ignorant and not very bright. To hear them talk, they are the very soul of tolerance. And yet when anyone dares question their unconvincing or outright false claims, their response is predictably nasty and personal.


So, in true IOKIYAR fashion...you speak of civility from one side of your mouth and name call from the other...I find many of the convinient constitutional arguements to be offensive, racist, and un-intelligable as well.

I notice that you've dropped your claim that President Obama decides educational issues and policy for the District of Columbia.



FedEx and UPS to compete with the Post Office drives up the cost of delivering parcels beyond what most people can afford. If parents had only the same amount of money to spend each year to educate each child that government is now spending--which was the premise--why would private schools be able to charge more than that?


And FEDEX compares to educational issues how? Of course, let's ignore a real and valid comparison of private college costs to public college costs...because that involves too much common sense.

Kiplinger, which offers financial advice, reported that 39 of the top 100 four-year public institutions of higher education charged about the same or less than the average annual in-state full price, which was $15,213. Many were a lot lower.

The average total per year for a student in a private school is $35,600, according to the non-profit College Board, which owns and administers the SAT as well as other exams and programs.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/answer-sheet/college-costs/comparing-costs-of-public-priv.html
 Double Cabin
Joined: 11/29/2004
Msg: 39
view profile
History
Equal Education for ALL in the US?
Posted: 2/7/2012 7:13:52 AM
Wow, some of the detachment from reality here is to be expected, but sad nonetheless.

I come from a family of service, but those in my family never put on the uniform out of some sense it would put them beyond any kind of reproach. Every citizen has the same right to input as anyone else whatever the caliber of their service might have been.

As a nation we spend more than the next 17 nations combined on our military, and we've allowed ourselves to undertake foreign expeditions and occupations without first considering how to pay for them. Despite the fact our incursion into a country that never attacked us and NEVER used a WMD without the tacit approval of a US President we are unequivocally LESS secure today than we were on 911. When it comes to finances and tactics that's something the "Greatest Generation Ever" and before never would have done on a scale remotely comprable to the irresponsible excess of today. What we spend on our military denotes a fundamental DEFEAT when we look at relative bargains like education that we've squandered.

Every citizen of the free world has the right to question ANYTHING in any country, period. The fact few of you recognize the parenting failure as the greatest obstacle in our educational malaise let alone across the societal spectrum doesn't bode well for us.

"Think! It's very patriotic."
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 40
Equal Education for ALL in the US?
Posted: 2/7/2012 9:34:12 AM
Msg 45 - I invite you to come to Los Angeles, where we have a 55% high school dropout rate. Come here and take a look around, go to a few schools and observe for yourself, talk to some people, and then tell me that families don't matter.


Didn't some top school administrator just get indited and convicted out there for stealing from the school system...setting up his girl friend with a high paying bogus job...padding expenses...and a bunch of other stuff???


I don't doubt for a moment that constitutional arguments are unintelligible to you.


Yes, the ones that are un-intelligible are unintelligent to me....and then the ones that show the bigotry and racism of the constitutional arguement are just plain offensive.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 41
view profile
History
Equal Education for ALL in the US?
Posted: 2/7/2012 9:47:28 AM

I find many of the convinient constitutional arguements to be offensive, racist, and un-intelligable as well.


I don't doubt for a moment that constitutional arguments are unintelligible to you.
 part deux
Joined: 11/11/2008
Msg: 42
Equal Education for ALL in the US?
Posted: 2/7/2012 9:21:23 PM
Obviously family participation is important,but so is infrastructure, materials, public transit,teachers, support staff etc...
Unlike private schools, public schools accept all students, learning disabled, cognitive delay, behavioral problems. They often do this with limited budgets and ressources.
Public schools often attract the best and brightest teachers, the ones that really want to make a diference in children's lives.
In schools, there are contact lists for each student. I have never seen a student with only one contact. A family is not only mother and father, it can be friends, grandparents, aunts/uncles, boyfriend/girlfriend etc...
I find it sad that so many people are more comfortable spending money on prisons and warfare than education.
The poor DO NOT have equal access to education. Anyone who makes this claim is just clueless.
And people wonder why 'kids today don't have any respect'.
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 44
Equal Education for ALL in the US?
Posted: 2/11/2012 10:49:50 AM
Here is some more information on the subject:

Education Gap Grows Between Rich and Poor, Studies Say
By SABRINA TAVERNISE
Published: February 9, 2012


...“We have moved from a society in the 1950s and 1960s, in which race was more consequential than family income, to one today in which family income appears more determinative of educational success than race,” said Sean F. Reardon, a Stanford University sociologist. Professor Reardon is the author of a study that found that the gap in standardized test scores between affluent and low-income students had grown by about 40 percent since the 1960s, and is now double the testing gap between blacks and whites.

In another study, by researchers from the University of Michigan, the imbalance between rich and poor children in college completion — the single most important predictor of success in the work force — has grown by about 50 percent since the late 1980s....


Read more at: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/10/education/education-gap-grows-between-rich-and-poor-studies-show.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all
 onlydateIF
Joined: 11/15/2011
Msg: 45
Equal Education for ALL in the US?
Posted: 2/11/2012 9:25:59 PM
Hi Op. A few years ago, I had the great honor of meeting an amazing woman from the SPLC named Shirley Sherrod. I will never forget her! Most recently, she was wrongly embroiled in controversy, and then rightfully and humbly apolozed to. You may know of her, if not you can read up about her on the web. She is a true American hero! One of the finest in fact! Anyways, I am sure she is quite busy, but if you can, I would try to track her down and interview her. I bet it would be helpful for your book. All the best to you, and wishing you much success on your book~OnlydateIF
 onlydateIF
Joined: 11/15/2011
Msg: 46
Equal Education for ALL in the US?
Posted: 2/12/2012 8:11:49 AM
^^^^^ that was : " ...apologized to".. :)
 part deux
Joined: 11/11/2008
Msg: 47
Equal Education for ALL in the US?
Posted: 2/12/2012 11:44:59 AM
I do teach, so you are wrong, and you are a racist. I know your 'type' as well, and you should retire.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 48
Equal Education for ALL in the US?
Posted: 2/12/2012 12:23:24 PM
I think you're throwing the "racist" term out there a little too easily.

The fact is that well to do areas will have parents who make more money. They will tend to be brighter than average, and better educated. So the kids there will have both genetic and cultural advantage going in. And the parents will be more involved both because they value education and because they have the time to be involved.

It's not a racial thing. Rich people, on average, are smarter and have more ability to help their kids.
There are lots of smart poor people and lots of dumb rich people - but taken over an entire school district, the averages will catch you up.

And parental involvement is the main factor is academic performance, regardless of income. If the personal experience of a teacher tells her that students who do poorly have parents who are uninvolved that just validates all the research on the subject. It doesn't indicate racism.
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 49
Equal Education for ALL in the US?
Posted: 2/12/2012 12:25:39 PM
If you are writing a novel about education, you are not going to get the info you need by conducting a survey on POF--or even a survey outside of POF.

You need to live it as a student, an educator, and an administrator.

And a novel would not be about "education": novels are about people, eh?

EDIT: Um, you need to return to school and take not only a writing class, but a few classes in literature. I just read your profile and there is NO such thing as a "nonfiction novel." Novels are, by definition, fiction. You can write a nonfiction account or a memoir.
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 50
Equal Education for ALL in the US?
Posted: 2/12/2012 12:26:30 PM

If the personal experience of a teacher tells her that students who do poorly have parents who are uninvolved that just validates all the research on the subject...

From the research that I have seen and posted a reference to, it actually contradicts it.

Also ones personal experience is just that. It is not an objective evaluation of the system.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 51
Equal Education for ALL in the US?
Posted: 2/12/2012 1:15:32 PM
Consider, 5% of Whites have an IQ of 75 or less.

22% of Blacks,

18% of hispanics

I don't know if you ever saw the movie The Blind Side, but it was pretty good. The book is great. One of the things that was in the book but not the movie, is that Michael Ohr's IQ results went up 20 points after living in a wealthy, white home for a short while. That's not supposed to happen. Clearly economic and cultural factors have a big impact on IQ scores.

edit:

If the personal experience of a teacher tells her that students who do poorly have parents who are uninvolved that just validates all the research on the subject...

From the research that I have seen and posted a reference to, it actually contradicts it.

I must not have phrased that as clearly as I though. The research says that kids who have involved parents do better; conversely those who have uninvolved parents do worse. This teacher's experience is that the kids who are doing poorly have parents who don't come to parent-teacher conferences nor get involved in their child's education.
 part deux
Joined: 11/11/2008
Msg: 52
Equal Education for ALL in the US?
Posted: 2/12/2012 2:06:41 PM
'some' people can play for the Lakers and 'some' people can go to university- no not racist at all. You can teach in Quebec with a Bachelors degree, I am getting a second degree in B Ed, so yes I teach.
Furthermore 'if' youactually taught LD students, you would know that the mandate for inclusion is not that all children can learn everything, it is that all children have the right to an education regardless of their abilities. Therefore, teachers create IEP's with the individuals abilities taken into account.
I as well am fluently bilingual (french/english)what's your point?
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 53
Equal Education for ALL in the US?
Posted: 2/12/2012 3:11:03 PM
I'm guessing you're looking for stuff that supports your biases.

There was an article several years ago in the New Yorker called "The Genius of Michael Jordan" or something like that. The fact is that when your and my ancestors left Africa 50,000 years ago, they left almost all the genetic diversity of the human race behind. So people of more recent African descent will have much greater genetic diversity - a flatter bell curve in all genetic areas. You will find more stupid people, but also more brilliant people; more tall and short; and, when you're dealing with world class athletes (by definition, extremely rare genetically) you'll find that the 10% of the American population that is black will supply the majority of them. Just like most of the 7 footers are black, and most of the great intellects as well. It is lingering racism that prevents black men and women from dominating acadame, the US Senate and the Supreme Court just like they dominate the US Olympic team.
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