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 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 23
What is God ,Ghosts Spirits Made From ?Page 2 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)
There have been some 'experts' in the field, who have speculated that the brain could operate on some quantum level, and they base this on the 'Bose Einstein Condensate" effect, of simultaneous synchronicity, which apparently, can be found to exist in nature, in some substances.

But 100% of all claims which have been investigated, regarding "spirits"/ghosts/gods/miracles/out of body experiences etc etc., ad nauseum, have been found to be subjective delusions at best, and outright frauds, at worst.

There is absolutely no evidence for the existence of any of these ''supernatural phenomena" .

My invisible friend concurs.
So that's proof then.
 *rem*
Joined: 11/5/2008
Msg: 25
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What is God ,Ghosts Spirits Made From ?
Posted: 2/26/2012 2:23:24 PM
We've been smashing atoms together for years. I think they already have a good idea and they won't be telling us in the next decade.
Personally I have more time for Tesla than Einstein
Credible professional scientific people have recorded UFO's travelling at 14000 mph then making a right angle turn. No matter where you come from and no matter what your technology, that isn't possible here. 'Here' being the operative word. Which ties in with something i saw with a witness.. It simply wasnt possible. Unless i (we) were fortunate to witness a window into an existance we know almost nothing about.
 *rem*
Joined: 11/5/2008
Msg: 28
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What is God ,Ghosts Spirits Made From ?
Posted: 2/26/2012 3:02:51 PM

Bose Einstein Condensate which states when atoms are cooled enought they loose their identity they are every where but at rest at the same time.. as atoms need to be at extreme cold temperatures, which happens in deep space not naturally on earth.. it is unlikely for this to be the answer

however i do think there is still room left to explain this phenomenon of gods/sprits ,, having substance.. as yet our understanding of how matter works at its extremes is not yet to fully understood.. add to the mix chaotic , string theory and dark matter supposedly not containing any protons/neutrons ,, the possibility of an answer maybe within or grasp..


Thats what i said!!
 *rem*
Joined: 11/5/2008
Msg: 33
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What is God ,Ghosts Spirits Made From ?
Posted: 2/26/2012 5:12:52 PM
And thats what they're afraid of. Thats why we won't be hearing about any breakthroughs any time soon. Just the word government is laughable when you consider this.
 *rem*
Joined: 11/5/2008
Msg: 35
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What is God ,Ghosts Spirits Made From ?
Posted: 2/26/2012 5:19:29 PM
'is it possible that some people could imagine they see them, could certain mental/ physical factors be in play as with a mirage in the desert?? Or could they be a sort of hallucination'

Think of it more as a looking through a window on the side of a train tunnel. You dont know when to take the picture because you have a limited view left and right. But when you do take a picture... its just a blur
 try1more
Joined: 12/16/2007
Msg: 41
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Posted: 2/26/2012 8:00:11 PM
there is something that i've wanted to explore but not spoken to anyone that seems interested, but as there do seem to be some interested here i'll give it a go.
what if we are symbiotic consisting of matter the thing you can touch and feel (always assuming you can get a date that is :-))
the other being the spirit if you like, the thing that makes us us.
science can see brainwaves etc, ok so they can see the effect but can they define the cause? can it say what makes us us, what life is, they cant create it, and only under certain conditions can they keep it going, they can keep the body fully functional using machines so it wont decay but it has no life, lights on but nobody home.

so what if from when the cells start dividing they attract the energy that will become the person.
there's more but i've just got home from work n it's time i went to bed, and besides maybe nobody's interested.
 stonecastle
Joined: 2/14/2007
Msg: 43
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Posted: 2/27/2012 3:41:08 AM
This is the most spookiest experience I have come across on the internet, see this true ghost about a satanist rock musician story: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7dpGWYZMDc
Incidently the band he played for is now called Full Devil Jacket.
 Marquis_de_Michaelmas
Joined: 10/23/2008
Msg: 45
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What is God ,Ghosts Spirits Made From ?
Posted: 2/27/2012 4:39:54 AM
An interesting extension of this discussion, is "What is the Devil, Poltergeists, and Demons made from?"
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 47
What is God ,Ghosts Spirits Made From ?
Posted: 2/27/2012 6:15:41 AM
I think the human tendency towards egotism, is behind many of these beliefs, and that they're more subconscious desires, for some sort of 'immortality'.

All this talk of spirits, ghosts, and perhaps even gods, stems from the egotistical supposition, that the consciousness which has evolved (The 'self') is too "important" to be extinguished, upon death.
We are complex beings, we don't yet fully understand how the brain works, but new technologies are giving neuroscientists, new insights, almost daily.

Philosophically, it seems to me, that regarding the consciousness/intelligence which we've evolved, (primarily so that we can survive and exist, amongst other evolved life-forms, and sustain the bags of meat, which we all are, to reach breeding age, and perpetuate the species, and thus to evolve further), as something more than the complex 'program' which controls the mechanics of said bag of meat, is nothing more than deluded egotism, -we're just not that important, in the 'bigger picture'.

Viewed from a greater distance, and over cosmological time-frames, this planet is simply suffering from a short-lived infestation of this particular species.

We know that the world, indeed the whole universe, was devoid of "life", to start with. We know that a few Billion years ago, this planet was devoid of life, and in due course, it will be again.

How many of these ghosts/spirits/gods were in existence to begin with..?
And how many are there supposed to be now..>?
Do all evolved species have "souls", is the 'ether' filled with the dead souls/ghosts of dinosaurs, birds, bears, monkeys, insects..? Or are we the only life-form that's "important" enough, by "your reckoning", to have these "spirits"..>?

There has been research recently, (I'll try and find it) which seems to show that the offspring of mice, who had lived in "enriched environments", (whose intelligence had been developed, by 'learning' and stimulation), their offspring seemed to exhibit some signs of "genetic memory". In other words, they appeared to have carried forward, some of the learned 'intelligence' of their parents, in addition to the 'inherent' intelligence which they would normally have been born with.

I have always suspected this, and it's a subject which I find fascinating, and which I believe that distortions and misinterpretations, of such phenomena, may have led to erroneous superstitious beliefs in reincarnation, and the "perpetuation of soul" etc.

There have also been repeatable experiments, which show that "feelings", and "impressions", and other "genuine" experiences, can be induced in subjects, electro-magnetically, by influences outside of the brain. In one such experiment, they were able to make the subjects "feel" that they had bee "joined" by a "benign presence", they all felt, at the flick of a switch, that a "spirit" had joined them. This doesn't "prove" that a spirit HAD "joined them", but it did prove, that we can make people think that they had, by influencing the workings of the brain, with external electrical influences, at the correct frequency, and magnitudes.

It has also been known, for some time, that all chambers, or rooms, have resonant frequencies. Anyone with any knowledge of acoustics, will confirm this, it's based on the wave lengths of sound, carried through the medium of air, and the reflections, and 'standing waves' which this creates, within the confined volume.

To put the two together, it has been speculated that combining the ability of the human brain, to respond in different ways, to different external influences and frequencies, that the standing waves in some buildings, could, repeatedly lead many people to believe that particular places were "haunted". I believe that science will eventually get to the bottom of such myths, with logical, scientific explanations.

We are notoriously unreliable witnesses of reality.
Our eyes can be fooled, our ears can be fooled, and so can our brains.
I don't doubt that the people who have experienced such things, believe them, with all sincerity, but beliefs too, can be wrong.

We are able to store the thoughts and works of previous generations of scientists, we write stuff down now. Our repository of knowledge, is largely outside of the human body.
We build on the discoveries of previous generations, we continue the work of discovery, the more knowledge we accumulate, the higher we build, the higher we build, the further we can see.

I'm all in favour of discussions about science, quantum physics, dark matter, etc., and what we still don't know, but lets try and keep all the "woo-woo" out of science, eh?

 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 49
What is God ,Ghosts Spirits Made From ?
Posted: 2/27/2012 7:20:38 AM
I prefer to keep an open mind on these things....

Always best.



and as Einstein in his wisdom pointed out: "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."

Einstein was a diplomatic man, he said lots of things, and they have to be viewed in context, but he believed it to be, all "bollux" [Med. Term].

With regard to Divine command theory, Einstein stated, "I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own—a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms."[22] "A God who rewards and punishes is inconceivable to him for the simple reason that a man's actions are determined by necessity, external and internal, so that in God's eyes he cannot be responsible, any more than an inanimate object is responsible for the motions it undergoes. Science has therefore been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hopes of reward after death. It is therefore easy to see why the churches have always fought science and persecuted its devotees."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein%27s_religious_views





"The idea of a personal God is quite alien to me and seems even naïve."[9] And to Eric Gutkind he wrote, "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish.


 lalby
Joined: 12/5/2005
Msg: 53
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Posted: 2/27/2012 3:39:03 PM
Its a made up thing like sex n love n santa for mugs to believe in.
 *rem*
Joined: 11/5/2008
Msg: 56
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What is God ,Ghosts Spirits Made From ?
Posted: 2/28/2012 5:15:38 PM
An interesting extension of this discussion, is "What is the Devil, Poltergeists, and Demons made from?"


The other best post here.
Why does Saturn (saturday/satan day) have a pentagon at its north pole?
Did i say pentagon as in the american military HQ?
I was mistaken surely.
Why does GCHQ look like a rounded off version of the same thing..?
 *rem*
Joined: 11/5/2008
Msg: 58
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Posted: 2/28/2012 6:28:15 PM
Because of the people who work there.. I know a few
After al,l anyone with any sense would make buildings like that with the most uneconomical use of space known to (wo)man
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 60
What is God ,Ghosts Spirits Made From ?
Posted: 2/29/2012 11:28:29 AM

......Such patronising ignorance, you obviously have no knowledge of para psychology.

Oooooooh!
If you believe in that sh1t [Med. Term], and you think you can prove it, (rather than just getting angry, on a forum).
Why not claim the $1 Million reward, from this guy..?

The James Randi Educational Foundation (JREF) currently offers a prize of one million U.S. dollars to eligible applicants who can demonstrate a supernatural ability under agreed-upon scientific testing criteria. Similar to the paranormal challenges of John Nevil Maskelyne and Houdini, in 1964, Randi put up $1,000 of his own money payable to anyone who could provide objective proof of the paranormal.[61] Since then, the prize money has grown to the current $1,000,000, and has formal published rules. No one has progressed past the preliminary test, which is set up with parameters agreed to by both Randi and the applicant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Randi
Knock yourself out!.

Uri Geller sued him, for $15Million, for saying he was a fraud, and a charlatan. It cost Geller a lot of money, he lost, and he was fined $120,000 for filing a "frivolous lawsuit"

"Para psychology" ???
Best LOL of the day!
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 64
What is God ,Ghosts Spirits Made From ?
Posted: 2/29/2012 12:35:43 PM

And how do you know that some variation of the Observer Effect won't take place?

That's a very good question, and if it had any bearing, no-one would have ever claimed to have witnessed it...?
But there have been many such claims, so clearly, the 'observer effect' doesn't seem to prevent viewing, according to those who claim this to be 'true'.
Strangely, since 1964, when he first offered the reward, there have been no 'takers'.

....Para psychology is not "s***" you p***********************

There's no need for that, I've told you before, insults aren't 'allowed'.
(I've also attempted to show you how to quote properly, clearly a waste of time)
I wasn't being "patronising", I was being KIND!
You're perfectly entitled to believe in whatever forms of 'woo-woo' gets you excited.
I was simply pointing out that there's no basis in fact, and absolutely no verified evidence.
"Para psychology" my ar$e!


 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 66
What is God ,Ghosts Spirits Made From ?
Posted: 2/29/2012 12:58:10 PM
I was refering to the offer of money. View it as a form of Pascal's Wager and appreciate how easy that was to refute.

Hmmm... I always thought Pascal was wrong about that.
Here's how I see it:
I'll give you the "opposite" of "Pascal's Wager":

If there is a God, you only need to "fear" his "judgment" if you're "evil",
Clearly, NOT believing, in itself, can't be considered "evil",
(because no single religion has anything but a minority of mankind's "devotion", the others, simply haven't heard about it*, or worship 'other gods'... (*yet?).)

So unless you are , or intend to be, "evil",
you may as well not believe, because you have nothing to lose,
(and lots of time to gain, by not "worshipping".)

If you only ever do "good things",
then you have no reason to believe in/fear "god"(s)

Think about it.....


 wanted555
Joined: 2/18/2011
Msg: 72
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Posted: 2/29/2012 9:16:10 PM
you said it all sussex !!
 Marquis_de_Michaelmas
Joined: 10/23/2008
Msg: 79
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Posted: 3/1/2012 1:46:48 AM
Personally I think it's all a load of old tosh, but I respect your right to speak it on a Sunday Morning at Speakers Corner in Hyde Park!
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 82
What is God ,Ghosts Spirits Made From ?
Posted: 3/1/2012 3:19:42 AM

Jo van.

Why don`t you take yourself to a spiritual church one day,sit right at the back,with ya dark glasses on,so nobody knows who you are.

Chill out for an hour or so with some lovely people,have some "positive"conversations.

Find out for "yourself".

Have you ever been to a clairvoyance evening.You seem to have been to one,and was not impressed,as you seem to know that it is all rubbish.

I can assure you, I'm already perfectly "chilled out", thank you.
Indeed, if I were any more "chilled-out", I would need a life-support machine, if I were any more 'laid-back', I'd be horizontal.

I've seen enough of these charlatans on TV., to know that they are frauds. And there's always the FACT, that in the 48 years that the reward has been on offer, no-one has been able to demonstrate that this "ability" exists, to the satisfaction of scientists, despite thousands of such claims.

The people who attend such meetings, can only tactfully be described as 'gullible'.
The desire to communicate with the dead, is understandable, but in blunt terms, it's a form of "denial".

People like to imagine that their loved ones haven't really 'left them', and still exist, as 'spirits', on some unknown 'plane'.
"Spiritualists" capitalise on that 'opportunity', some for money, (and yet still no claimants of the $1M prize), others for attention/'validation'/'self-importance'/self-aggrandizement/craving some elevated status, or simply to have their 'power' recognised.
Sadly, they prey on the vulnerable, the grieving, those mourning their losses.

Perhaps I'm 'brutal', but I don't think that 'humouring' a person, who's 'in shock', or 'in denial', about such a loss, is either 'humane', or 'kind', in any way, nor 'helping them', at all. -the claims of religions everywhere, who use the 'opportunity' of death, to move in on people, already in such a vulnerable state, and gain them as a convert/mark.
Aiding those people to remain "in denial", about the finality of death, isn't any more 'humane' IMO., than agreeing with a person who believes himself to be the "son of god", and goes about 'blessing people', or believes himself to be a lizard.

As I said earlier in the thread, I believe the truth is always best.

In fact, now I think about it, I would make it illegal for any such organisation, (or persons, claiming to be able to "contact the dead", whether that's "spiritualists" types, OR 'conventional' religions, ) to accept money from the bereaved, for an agreed period of time... And, I would make bereavement counseling, a standard, for anyone who's lost a loved one, or close relative.
People are often in a state of shock, and bewilderment at such times, we protect other vulnerable individuals, and I think there's a case to be made for protecting the bereaved, from the clutches of the avaricious, and the already deluded.
JMO
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 88
What is God ,Ghosts Spirits Made From ?
Posted: 3/1/2012 6:22:06 AM

Jo van i do agree with you loads of frauds out there .
I for one wouldnt go near i got councilling as no i didnt cope .
Strange things have however been occuring that have cost me nothing exept total peace feeling dads looking after me .
Fact is he was protective
me being dyxlexic he used visul things to teach me .
Coincidence is getting more unlikely .

Don't get me wrong, I do believe that a 'part' of my Dad is "still alive",in me, and in my sons.
I see glimpses of him, sometimes, when I catch my own reflection, or sometimes in my sons.
Your dad does 'live-on', as long as you, or your offspring are living on.

As I said earlier in the thread, I believe there may be some sort of 'genetic memory' at work, in our very DNA. (And there has been some scientific research, which shows that there may be further research necessary, to get to the bottom of it. )
We are constantly learning new things. I don't think it's a person's 'soul' that survives, more like a 'footprint' of sorts.
We all leave our 'marks', however significant, or insignificant they may be, in a sense we are all 'detectable', objectively.

But as I said earlier, we are also very fallible, and our senses can be fooled, to a certain extent, we only see, hear, smell etc., what we WANT to.
As many studies of the variation in human observational capabilities, have shown.
Show any 10 witnesses the same scene, and then interview them, regarding details, and you'll get 10 different descriptions, of the same event.
We are 'subjective' beings, how we interpret a variety of events, will vary greatly, according to a great many previous experiences, and their subjective interpretations.

The only real way to be sure, is for objective scientific exploration, rather than hearsay, and whenever that has been done, (and it has consistently been done) no-one has managed any proof, as yet.

It's exactly the same with all religions.
Despite their claims, and a great many experiments having been conducted, at huge expense, (to the churches involved), to attempt to "prove the power of prayer", in 'blind testing', there has been no evidence of any effects.
(In some cases, if people KNEW they were being "prayed for", they actually got WORSE! )
(Sorry, I shouldn't laugh: )
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 92
What is God ,Ghosts Spirits Made From ?
Posted: 3/1/2012 7:19:55 AM
Trying to use logic and reason in an attempt to comprehend spiritual phenomena makes as much sense to me as walking into an art gallery blindfolded with the aim of appreciating some fine Rembrandt...


Are you saying that "spirituality" is an ART FORM..?
If so, I think you may be getting close...
I have no objections to "spirituality" as an art-form, or even as a 'philosophy', of sorts, a "way of looking at the world", I would encourage such aspirations, and 'open-mindedness'.
People can think whatever they like..
As I said, we all see the world differently...
It's only when people start pretending that it's objectively verifiable, that I have a problem.
There's "woo-woo", and then there's science, two entirely separate things...
So far, "spiritual phenomena" falls into the former, because there's been no such thing, (other than verbally).

 DawnMarianne
Joined: 6/24/2010
Msg: 94
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Posted: 3/1/2012 7:48:18 AM
Such a shame that we live in a world that only seeing is believing, well I have seen things I cannot explain without people being judgemental, but I know what I see and hear and feel. I have passed messages on for loved ones and have shocked myself in the process.
I would also like to state I am not on medication and never have been,so for me that theory is out the window lol.

Kinda think it's funny that everyone says about the big bang theory as it's fact and must be believed well doesn't the word theory put a ? on that one also............. all I am saying is just because you can't see something doesn't mean it isn't real it just means it hasn't been proven,or you haven't seen it yourself yet...
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 99
What is God ,Ghosts Spirits Made From ?
Posted: 3/1/2012 10:07:27 AM

Witchcraft murder: Couple guilty of Kristy Bamu killing

A couple have been found guilty of murdering a teenager they had accused of using witchcraft. Bamu and football coach Bikubi believed he had cast spells on another child in the family, the Old Bailey heard.

Kristy had refused to admit to sorcery and witchcraft and his punishments, in a "deliverance" ceremony, became more horrendous until he admitted to being a sorcerer.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-17040111

^^^That's the kind of thing, this sort of stupidity engenders.

"Witches", "spirits", the "para-normal", "keep an open mind"..>?
I think not.

Rationally, skeptically, and sanely yours,



 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 103
What is God ,Ghosts Spirits Made From ?
Posted: 3/1/2012 10:58:20 AM

.......A couple of centuries ago we could not prove the existence of electricity, we have only split the atom 70 yrs ago.

Oh, they knew it existed, thousands of years ago, they just didn't understand it, or know what it was.

We dont fully understand how the human brain totally works, nor even freak atmospheric weather conditions and things like ball lightening.

Yes, we still don't understand many things, but that doesn't make them due to the "para-normal", or "ghosts", "spirits", or "gods". Those are just primitive concepts.

Without a doubt, paranormal things do happen in rare cases such as poltergeists and residual energy "hauntings" which we cannot expalin via conventional science......yet.

You won't be able to cite a single case which has been verified, just stories.

spontanious human combustion has been accepted by science as a reality,

Citation please. Nothing to do with "ghosts", "spirits", or "gods".

There are also events which happen which according to conventional science are impossible like a small woman lifting a truck off her child or a people being bitten by posionous snakes but it having no effect on them.

Clearly, these things aren't "impossible". But Nothing to do with "ghosts", "spirits", or "gods".



Infact a US university has no proven humans do possess psychic abilities

http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/Dec10/BemStudy.html


QuoteIt took eight years and nine experiments with more 1,000 participants, but the results offer evidence that humans have some ability to anticipate the future.
"Of the various forms of ESP or psi, as we call it, precognition has always most intrigued me because it's the most magical," said Daryl Bem, professor of psychology emeritus, whose study will be published in the American Psychological Association's Journal of Personality and Social Psychology sometime next year.

"It most violates our notion of how the physical world works. The phenomena of modern quantum physics are just as mind-boggling, but they are so technical that most non-physicists don't know about them," said Bem, who studied physics before becoming a psychologist
Bem's nine experiments demonstrated similar unconscious influences from future events. For example, in one experiment, participants saw a list of words and were then given a test in which they tried to retype as many of the words as they could remember. Next, a computer randomly selected some of the words from the list and gave the participants practice exercises on them. When their earlier memory test results were checked, it was found that they had remembered more of the words they were to practice later than words they were not going to practice. In other words, the practice exercises had reached back in time to help them on the earlier test.

All but one of the nine experiments confirmed the hypothesis that psi exists. The odds against the combined results being due to chance or statistical flukes are about 74 billion to 1, according to Bem Unquote

That's a ridiculous conclusion, from just nine experiments, and only 1000 people.

I'm no expert, but statistically improbable things, do happen. People do win the lottery twice, do get struck by lightning twice.
Why, people even find a 'match', on dating sites.
I'd suggest there was a high probability, that Professor Bem finds most things "mind-boggling.
And once again, none of this has the slightest connection with "ghosts", "spirits", or "gods".
 Trianon123
Joined: 12/1/2011
Msg: 110
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What is God ,Ghosts Spirits Made From ?
Posted: 3/2/2012 5:06:00 AM
Surely you need to decide/show/prove whether it actually 'is' before deciding what its made of........

the belief in these things comes from peoples imaginations but belief is all there is, well, that and leaps of faith.....

I mustnt forget the political aspect too - monotheism was politically imposed, before that there were different gods for all kinds of unexplained phenomena......
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