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 AUTHOR
 ladyc4
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 101
The Madonna/Whore SyndromePage 5 of 7    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7)
Itech, as I THOUGHT I understood the OPs' premise-he wants a woman for a sexless companionship relationship, and another woman as a FwB, as well. Or maybe not even "friends"- is there such a thing as "vague acquaintanceship with benefits?

Or perhaps, given some of the statements made in his opening post, he wants a woman for companionship but not sex, and to go out and have sex with strangers? But this companion woman must not have any sexual urges? I'm not sure but it sounds like he wants an asexual female housemate for companionship, but yet have free rein to go out and find sex elsewhere.

It's a free country- people can want what they want and are free to seek it, provided no significant laws are being broken or taboos of our culture violated. But as you said, what we understand-or THOUGHT we understood-the OP to be seeking is not likely to be in the majority of those seeking sociosexual interactions/relationships.



Too bad the world doesn't revolve around you, isn't it?


Oh Heavens, I wouldn't want that at all. I'm simply trying to respond to your topic,and trying to explain why what you want-(as I understand it)-is not going to be that easy to find.
As for establishing what I want,I think I'm as entitled to do that as anybody else.
And yes, it's my considered opinion that someone who wants a live-in companion that fills a "significant other" role except without sex AND free rein to set up a FwB, f*ckbuddy or go out and have one nighters with other people, has a dysfunction at work.
Again-given your comment that this "significant-other-minus-sex" would have a very low, or nonexistent!-libido, I'm taking that to mean that this nonsexual SO would NOT be allowed to have another person(s) as sexual partners. Now-guys...how many of you would want your SO to go out and find someone else to have sex with, because she loves you but doesn't want to have sex with you because that would "spoil" the relationship? Don't all answer at once, now...


You've been laboring under the wrong assumption that I am attached to one woman and cheating with another or that I would condone or prescribe such a thing, which I do neither of.


Well, I didn't think that you actually HAD that kind of deal going-but it sure sounded to me like you were trying make a case for being attached to one woman in sexless companionship,and having free rein to go out and find sex elsewhere.

If that's NOT what you mean, then I think you need to provide a major amount of clarification, because I believe most folks here think that having a committed partner for love & companionship without sex, AND another woman for sex without love & companionship-is EXACTLY what you are trying to promote.


well actually I wasn't presuming anything....
but you have repeatedly stated your desires for 2 women to fulfil these roles....
I'm only asking if both would know of the other if you did happen to make this happen.


Ms Micki-I doubt you will get an answer that's actually recognizable as such...what you will get is relocated goalposts( he's not talking about what he's talking about, it's all everybody else's fault for THINKING that what he was talking about was what it sounded like.) Is that not just as crystal clear as a mud bog?
Cindy O
 Balsamica
Joined: 2/24/2012
Msg: 102
The Madonna/Whore Syndrome
Posted: 3/13/2012 9:07:15 PM
DAREto: "How would you feel about it if the "loved" woman also wanted to go out and get her sexual needs fulfilled outside of the relationship or do you feel that the "loved" woman is too "ladylike" to need those kind of sexual acts in her life?"

You need to understand my world growing up. 50's Boston Catholic Italian household, you wanted a good girl to put the ring on her finger and be the mother of your children and that meant she was virtuous and you admired her virtues, not her libido. For a woman to have a libido, well, they were the bad girls with "reputations" you wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole, but you'd poke if you got the chance. Madonnas and Whores.

Women's liberation came along in the 60's and 70's, really kicked in the 80's and 90's, and it all changed. Now you have the gal with the business suit on by day who wants her hair pulled and her ass slapped by night.... or some such ideal. Such a woman has no appeal for me at all.

I had two women in my life in high school for a while. Claire was in my debate club, she was sharp as a razor, I loved her mind and it challenged me. We got to know each other and could talk through the night, but a strict Catholic and I'd attempt to kiss and hug but got her cheek. It felt like a big relief that we weren't being sexual and I could just have that time with her talking and walking for hours and miles and was very satisfied, I had so much to think about and ponder with her.

the other was a hot, little blonde named Marilyn who came on to me, we'd skip school and go to a friend's apartment and make love, laugh, make some more love, pee, and make some more love til 2:30 came and it was time to go home. I sort of knew I was a conquest and she'd move on and that was ok, but both were like butterflies.......beautiful and free and lovely and delicate......for me to pin either one of them down and watch them wriggle, no........to change either one, try to possess them and make one my "everything" or combine them into one, no. My virtuous Madonna and my little Whore.
I was fine with that. I'd be fine with that again, too!

I've had other relationships where there was love, sex, and all of that ...and I'd be fine with that again, too! I just don't feel the NEED to have all that combined in one person.

I'll take someone where they are at and where we are at before I'd reject them because all things and everything isn't present and they aren't custom-made for me. I probably grew up with the M/W syndrome as a lot of men my age.......it wasn't pathological THEN.... it's just deemed that now.

Maybe I am a relic but I went to a VFW post with a friend last weekend and told there were plenty of middle-aged women. Well, there were, about 20? The hooted at the Bruins game, swore like troopers, nearly all of them were HUGELY obese and kind of macho ... it felt like being with men who happened to have tits. The idea of having one come home in her business suit (pants, of course, not a skirt) who wanted me to pull her hair and slap her ass like a whore in bed that night so she be my "everything" has no appeal.
 MsMicki
Joined: 10/2/2006
Msg: 103
view profile
History
The Madonna/Whore Syndrome
Posted: 3/14/2012 8:33:21 AM

I had two women in my life in high school for a while. Claire was in my debate club, she was sharp as a razor, I loved her mind and it challenged me. We got to know each other and could talk through the night, but a strict Catholic and I'd attempt to kiss and hug but got her cheek..


Bet ya' a dollar that Claire likes her hair pulled and her ass slapped in a loving, committed relationship!!!
 ladyc4
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 104
The Madonna/Whore Syndrome
Posted: 3/14/2012 10:37:50 AM

You need to understand my world growing up. 50's Boston Catholic Italian household, you wanted a good girl to put the ring on her finger and be the mother of your children and that meant she was virtuous and you admired her virtues, not her libido. For a woman to have a libido, well, they were the bad girls with "reputations" you wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole, but you'd poke if you got the chance. Madonnas and Whores.


Why am I not one bit surprised at this?


Women's liberation came along in the 60's and 70's, really kicked in the 80's and 90's, and it all changed. Now you have the gal with the business suit on by day who wants her hair pulled and her ass slapped by night.... or some such ideal. Such a woman has no appeal for me at all


And another middle-aged male who can't deal with gender equality. Women must be dependent on men for purpose- even survival. The only "occupation" permitted is the sale of sex so that the "good girl"can remain on a pedestal in a non-sexual(or sexual only for procreation) relationship. At one time you might have been able to find a woman who was "old school", but so many women felt obligated to be both traditional AND modern. Having a (legal) paying occupation gave women more security against being trapped in an abusive marriage, or having to be a Madonna begging some charitable or government service to aid her and her children when her husband decided to run off with his whore.

Don't misunderstand me- I'm not talking about women being "oppressed"-by ANYBODY. I'm just speaking of a social and cultural paradigm shift that came of recognizing that locking women into a few rigid cultural roles was WASTING a lot of human resource.
Not everyone followed this paradigm shift. A lot of men raised in the 40s and 50s struggle with it, and a lot of women would LOVE to be the stay-at-home Madonna, but there are too many socioeconomic concerns to permit that, except in upper economic brackets.

A "Madonna" whose well-to-do husband runs off with his whore, will not have to fear that she and her children will be left to rely on charity. The "Madonna" whose husband is of average means, will have to rely on charity to some extent...unless she is a modern woman who has earning power of her own. And if womens' roles have evolved to equality of economic opportunity, why not sexual equality as well? Plenty of men have been able to reason this out, grasp the concept and at least accept it-regardless of how they were raised.


My virtuous Madonna and my little Whore.
I was fine with that. I'd be fine with that again, too!



Unfortunately, paradigms have shifted. It is no longer the 1960s. I'm not going to tell you that what you desire is impossible to obtain, but I believe that it will be quite difficult to do so. Whether you accept that and adjust your criteria, or continue to seek your ideal situation, is completely and entirely YOUR choice. You don't HAVE to "realize", "accept","understand" or "settle" for anything you don't want. But complaining because what you want is not a commonly available arrangement anymore isn't going to change the way things are now.


I'll take someone where they are at and where we are at before I'd reject them because all things and everything isn't present and they aren't custom-made for me.

I really don't think that there are all that many people, of either gender or sexual orientation,stubbornly holding out for "custom-made perfection for me". But many do have certain requirements that they can't abandon-one of them.for a lot of people, is having someone that they can love, respect,honor,AND have sexual desire for.


Maybe I am a relic but I went to a VFW post with a friend last weekend and told there were plenty of middle-aged women. Well, there were, about 20? The hooted at the Bruins game, swore like troopers, nearly all of them were HUGELY obese and kind of macho ... it felt like being with men who happened to have tits. The idea of having one come home in her business suit (pants, of course, not a skirt) who wanted me to pull her hair and slap her ass like a whore in bed that night so she be my "everything" has no appeal.


Now, unless this was an "open to the public" VFW or American Legion bar-those women may well have been wives or widows of veterans, or themselves military veterans. I cannot speak to the VFWs' regulations, but in the American Legion, daughters, grand-daughters and sisters are also eligible for Auxilary memberships.I've yet to encounter it, but I imagine that the husband of a female veteran would be eligible for Auxilary membership, if he cared to join. Or, he could go into a club as a spouse or guest of a member. MOST VFW and AL bars are "members and guests only". And another "perk" of a VFW or AL (or their Auxilaries) memberships, is that women who ARE single can go to a club-even by themselves- and relax without it being presumed she's alone in a bar because she's looking for a hook-up.

I mention this simply to illustrate that a veterans organization bar may not have the same customer demographics as a public bar,and that these clubs DO provide a comfortable social outlet for single women members. They aren't a hook-up bar or "meat market".

Message # 121 brings up another good point- it isn't an "either/or" situation. Just because a woman is uberfeminine doesn't mean she can't be a wild woman in the bedroom with her man.


but a strict Catholic and I'd attempt to kiss and hug but got her cheek..


Maybe she simply did not have any sense of being physically/sexually attracted to you? It IS possible for a woman to have a platonic male friend that she doesn't want any kind of pair-bond or sexual relationship with.

Just as a semi-educated guess- I think a lot of your "Madonna" women have marriages they've stayed in. You aren't going to find them on dating sites or other singles venues. Those who are widowed (or divorced for compelling reasons) are not going to be looking to meet men in any ostensible or overt manner.
Cindy O
 Balsamica
Joined: 2/24/2012
Msg: 105
The Madonna/Whore Syndrome
Posted: 3/14/2012 1:01:12 PM
mary_jane1963, the combination of nasty sex with a nasty woman is doubly unappealing to me, but each of them alone hasn't much appeal, either. I am what they call strictly "vanilla".
 Welsh474
Joined: 9/13/2010
Msg: 106
The Madonna/Whore Syndrome
Posted: 3/14/2012 1:04:09 PM
Funny how some folks never grow up or evolve. I'd be thinking if I had all these held over stupid toughts regarding the "right and wrong" about sex I'd be taking myself to a therapist. Maybe the good little catholic boy is in need of an exorcist.

I've always concidered that whatever two people like to do in the bedroom is "normal". It may not be my cup of tea, but to each their own and it comes down to it's "normal".

I do find something slightly sick about someone who wants the virginal partner at home (with the non existant libido) and having a fvck buddy on the side - that person needs therapy. Especially when they admit it and then dance around it when they get called on it by others. Typical.
 Balsamica
Joined: 2/24/2012
Msg: 107
The Madonna/Whore Syndrome
Posted: 3/14/2012 1:14:22 PM
ladyc4, way back in the day I pretty much rejected the idea of marriage due to the lack of gender equality. I didn't see myself being a beast of burden for a woman and children and mortages and colleges, etc. when there was an even chance one of us would fall out of love with the other and be stuck, so I passed up on several marriage invitations til later in life.

When I got married, though, I liked it and loved being a father and at this point wouldn't have a problem supporting a stay at home wife. I can afford it, but I don't have a problem with gender equality at all except that is has masculinized women like those at the VFW (who were mostly neighborhood types)....and men with tits paradigm doesn't work for me.

Claire was a Catholic, she was attracted to me but very strict about fooling around. You might be right that the kind of woman I like wouldn't be on a dating site, though.

As far as financial dependance on men, my parents, grandparents, uncles, aunts all had the primary breadwinner arrangement and it seemed to work for them. None had any desire to be out in the working world and if they did, it was just part-time and mostly for fun.

The difference between then and now is that marriages were for a lifetime then, the woman outlived the man usually, he got to earn and she got to spend, and then collected the estate when he died.........not a bad arrangement for a woman. Now, with divorce so prevalent, it all has to be battled out in the courts, but it is the women who are divorcing and what they've ended up with is of their own making, IMHO.
 HeartOn64
Joined: 2/9/2012
Msg: 108
The Madonna/Whore Syndrome
Posted: 3/14/2012 1:24:20 PM
I am really starting to see the correlation between Catholisism and sex and how it helped create the Madonna/Whore Complex in men of your generation.

I will go so far as to say,these "men" tend to be the very people who marry to "good girl" and cheat with the "bad girl" and ironically "sin" themselves.Oddly,it seems to evade them that ALL women are ALLOWED to be sexual and shameless even if the Church dictated thier sex lives by considering it a "Sin" to have sex out of wedlock for so many generations.

It may have been the "norm" back then to think as you do/did,but today,women are FREE to be sexual beings without major religious restrictions and the fact that some men are still stuck in that good girl/bad girl" complex made it obvious that it wasn't anything but men's pathological view of them that needed to change.



The difference between then and now is that marriages were for a lifetime then, the woman outlived the man usually, he got to earn and she got to spend, and then collected the estate when he died.........not a bad arrangement for a woman. Now, with divorce so prevalent, it all has to be battled out in the courts, but it is the women who are divorcing and what they've ended up with is of their own making.


And DAMN happier for it!

The difference then and now was that women were financially reliant on men and no matter what they did to them,including cheating on them or abusing them or controlling them the women stayed out or sheer need and the inability to support themselves as they were kept "barefoot and pregnant" and not allowed to work and have thier own money or independance from thier husbands!

Not to mention,Divorce wasn't ALLOWED thanks to the Catholic Church.But then again,neither was Birth Control or Abortion! Talk about cornering women into a no win situation!So really PLEASE dont' glorify the past! It SUCKED for women and I am damn GLAD I didn't "live" in those days!

Today........women don't put up with that sh*t!And YAY FOR US!
 damsel19
Joined: 2/22/2012
Msg: 109
The Madonna/Whore Syndrome
Posted: 3/14/2012 2:46:15 PM
I dont know who you are referring to with the Freud comment???. He was not great at the sexual analysis I agree. Way too skewed and really didnt know what makes women tick. I agree with your comments on him. The sexual obsession was his.

I am not talking about Elvis and his fame or whatever. He was so attached to his mother that once Priscilla had their daughter he was not into sex with her as she was a mother. He had other lovers and other children but I bet no more than one with any particular woman. We dont know what goes on behind closed doors anyway and she probably had her lovers as he did his. She was very young when she met him and I imagine he moulded her to an extent but she became her own woman and that was probably the cause of the problems between them. Elvis was a great performer and appeared sexy but had his own issues.
 ladyc4
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 110
The Madonna/Whore Syndrome
Posted: 3/14/2012 3:48:20 PM
I'll add some thoughts to the content of hearton64's post.

I do still see a fair number of marriages-even among people my own age and younger-that seem to be lifetime committments. But they are, for the most part, equal earners, or have a business that BOTH of them work at. The OPTION to leave an unhappy or abusive marriage is there for everyone.

As far as supporting a non-working spouse, I am hearing more and more of situations where SPOUSAL support is not open-ended, it's for a specified time frame to permit the non-employed spouse to enter the workforce. Of course, child support has to go on for however long the particular state or province requires.

But I agree with hearton that before it became socially acceptable-even expected!-for a woman to have a career or occupation BESIDES wife and mother-socioeconomic matters and community opinion did serve to keep people in marriages that they would never stay in now.
Keeping in mind Abraham Lincolns' observation that "most people are about as happy as they make their minds up to be"-I'm sure that many couples, back when divorce was socioeconiomically impractical for women, and socially unacceptable for men,made their minds up to make the best of it.

I agree that some subcultures( certain religious denominations being one of them) certainly stacked the deck-and some still do!- against an adult woman being independent. Now, there ARE women who derive comfort and security from the narrow choices allotted to women, who are trying to put the equality genie back IN the bottle. But it might take some hunting to find one that isn't already married and intending to stay that way.


It SUCKED for women


Now, there are people who believe that's exactly the way it SHOULD be, and people who simply refuse to believe that a life as chattel isn't beneficial to women based on the belief that women don't have the brain power to be independent and/or equal.

Now-kind of jumping backward


I didn't see myself being a beast of burden for a woman and children and mortages and colleges, etc.

But this was EXPECTED of men. It was his duty to find a good woman and provide for her and the couple's children. That was a mans' pride-in most middle and upper-class communities.

However, there WERE couples where both spouses were wage earners, and there were women who were widowed at a young age, with small children-who DIDN'T collapse in a heap and wait to be rescued by the next available and interested man that came along. Equality is not something that hit like a bolt from the blue in the 60s-it was something that had been coming on since WWII,when many women stepped into male occupations out of necessity.


Now, with divorce so prevalent, it all has to be battled out in the courts, but it is the women who are divorcing and what they've ended up with is of their own making, IMHO.


I think that most women who feel that a divorce is necessary are prepared for the adversities that may be inherent in their situations. I'm not sure how "what they've ended up with is of their own making" tracks with the common divorced mans' allegation that the ex-wife took him for everything.

The ones who MAY feel like they've been hard done by, are the more traditional wives whose husbands leave them-especially if she's a good Madonna and hubby leaves her for his Whore.

I know there is a widely touted "statistic" that 70% of divorce actions are filed by women...but what I hear is that a lot of that is of necessity, for either financial and/or physical protection of the woman and the couple's children, or because the man has abandoned the family and a divorce filing is necessary to put child support provisions into play.

I don't recall hearing WOMEN wanting to go back to the old model of marriage. I don't hear women claiming that equality has "feminized" men.
Cindy O
 Balsamica
Joined: 2/24/2012
Msg: 111
The Madonna/Whore Syndrome
Posted: 3/14/2012 3:57:36 PM
hearton64, sexual codes were made and enforced back when because pregnancy was so much more likely and I don't think it is "pathological" that society had codes in order to protect women from having unwanted to children, having children outside of marriage, and for the sake of children themselves to have two-parent families.

My mother and female relatives who grew up in that generation would very much disagree with you. You point out only the exceptions, not the rule, of abuse, dependence, etc. No one was kept barefoot and pregnant, at least none that I know of.

Women were honored as mothers and wives, you want to complain about that, fine, but try being a man. You didn't have to go to war and have an arm or leg or part of your head shot off or be scarred mentally and haunted for the rest of your life if you survived. I had a second cousin who was killed in Viet Nam at 21 years old and knew others, a draftee. I had an uncle who fought across Europe in WWII and survived but was suicidal, he had cancer and didn't tell anyone or seek treatment, just let it go until it was inoperable. There are tens of millions of men who knew the meaning of death and suffering that fought this country's wars ... how many women died?

You didn't have to shoulder the burden of a wife and three or four kids at home who depended on you for food and shelter or have your life shortened by the many occupational hazards and pure stress of it. Bosses were not nearly so "kind" as they are today. You didn't stay in a marriage and support a woman you no longer loved because it was expected of you as a man and there were children to consider, men did.

Our children are going down the toilet, sicker and poorer than their split up moms and dads...........ya, yay for you. I DO very much respect what people did for us in the past and all the sacrifices they made for their families... if you don't, I suspect you have NO respect for anything or anyone and don't even have a clue.
 Balsamica
Joined: 2/24/2012
Msg: 112
The Madonna/Whore Syndrome
Posted: 3/14/2012 4:11:01 PM
ladyc4, same old feminist mantra.

The fact is that women have RUINED marriage and RUINED families in exchange for their "liberation".

My advice to a young man today would be to never, EVER marry a woman and have children because she will certainly divorce him for the damnedest reasons, stick him with child support and/or alimony for 21 years, grab the kids and run with them. It is almost SUICIDAL to marry an American woman these days, utterly crazy. I am so glad I have a daughter!

I went to a support group post-divorce of mostly women and heard their reasons, they were silly and LAUGHABLE and I could have WEPT at how they ruined men and their entire families for the most inane and silly reasons, for most of them it just seemed like the thing to do. 70%, it is more like 80-90% of divorce petitions filed by women and only a small percent have ANY real issues.......they are frivolous.

American women are the most pampered and self-indulgent people on this planet, they have NO idea of sacrifice or suffering yet you LOVE to portray them as victims... try being a man and having half of your head shot off over in Iraq, the worst you poor, unfortunate, victimized women have to worry about is breaking a nail.
 MsMicki
Joined: 10/2/2006
Msg: 113
view profile
History
The Madonna/Whore Syndrome
Posted: 3/14/2012 6:33:22 PM
Respecting our past and living in it are 2 different things!!

Guess what........women are serving in the military and putting their lives on the line just like men are.
We are supporting ourselves, fixing our cars, repairing our homes, trimming our trees and raising the kids.
I broke a nail today....while I was tearing the roof off of my back porch! Wish that nail was all I had to worry about instead of sitting here figuring out how many 2X 4's I'll need to rebuild the rafters........
I'm so sorry I didn't know my place.......I'll be sure to play the unfortunate victim as soon as I get this roof rebuilt
 WomanInProgress
Joined: 10/16/2005
Msg: 114
The Madonna/Whore Syndrome
Posted: 3/14/2012 6:58:26 PM

The fact is that women have RUINED marriage and RUINED families in exchange for their "liberation".

My advice to a young man today would be to never, EVER marry a woman and have children because she will certainly divorce him for the damnedest reasons, stick him with child support and/or alimony for 21 years, grab the kids and run with them. It is almost SUICIDAL to marry an American woman these days, utterly crazy. I am so glad I have a daughter!

You're right - it was better when a woman was frowned upon for staying in a marriage where she was miserable and told to deal with it, and they didn't work much so men paid most of the bills (this was better?)...while there are women who truly leave a marriage for stupid reasons (or more likely shouldn't have gotten married in the first place), there are women who are having an easier time leaving a marriage that's downright unhealthy for both people.

Women I know spent most of the money leaving their marriage. These days the only person who gets shafted in a marriage (without a strict pre-nup) is the person who makes more money. Kids are a bit of a different thing.

If you don't want to get killed in a divorce, marry someone who makes as much as or more than you - then you won't have to worry about it.
 HeartOn64
Joined: 2/9/2012
Msg: 115
The Madonna/Whore Syndrome
Posted: 3/15/2012 3:19:00 AM
My advice to a young man today would be to never, EVER marry a woman and have children because she will certainly divorce him for the damnedest reasons, stick him with child support and/or alimony for 21 years, grab the kids and run with them. It is almost SUICIDAL to marry an American woman these days, utterly crazy. I am so glad I have a daughter!


And I am assuming you see your x-wife as doing just this and for no reason? lol
I'm glad you have a daughter too,as the world doesn't need anymore men with the kind of mysoginy you are spouting off with.



The fact is that women have RUINED marriage and RUINED families in exchange for their "liberation".


Ohhh...so now MEN are the innocent victims? LMAO! Pullease!

Same 'ole mysoginist mantra! And what of the 60% of Married men who cheat?
What of the men who verbally,sexually and physically abuse thier wives and children?What of the men who DESERVE to have thier wives leave them?
I assume you think they should just sacrifice thier lives for these men?




Our children are going down the toilet, sicker and poorer than their split up moms and dads...........ya, yay for you. I DO very much respect what people did for us in the past and all the sacrifices they made for their families... if you don't, I suspect you have NO respect for anything or anyone and don't even have a clue.


You can make this personal all you want,but you have issues with WOMEN in general so I won't bother to take that personally!

I can't say I respect the women who stayed and made the best of a BAD situation because it was against the "rules" to divorce.I am sure there were thousands of families who lived miserably due to forced marriages and would have done ANYTHING to get out if only they had the financial stability.

And BTW....having been my families Provider and Stay at home mom thanks to an inheritance,I can attest that had my xh not had serious anger management issues,alcoholism and entitlement issues that lead to his need to control and belittle me he would not have found himself out on his EAR after 24 years of misery he caused our family! I didn't even bother to expect Child Support as I wasn't going to waste my time and effort trying to collect it from him.I simply refused to continue to be abused,and support him anymore while he was threatening to HIT ME in front of our kids.

If that's not enough of a reason to be a single parent in your mind........oh well.

Even our kids understood and supported me ending that insanity in the name of SELF RESPECT!~

Sure.........women "back in the day" were completely codependant,but you know what? We KNOW better now and have options.


American women are the most pampered and self-indulgent people on this planet, they have NO idea of sacrifice or suffering yet you LOVE to portray them as victims... try being a man and having half of your head shot off over in Iraq, the worst you poor, unfortunate, victimized women have to worry about is breaking a nail.


That is the most unfair statement I have read to date from anyone in this forum and I take issue with your invalidation of women's legitimate pain! No wonder you are DIVORCED. Suffering is not a prerequisite of marriage and anyone who stays in misery has Trama Bonding issues they need therapy for!

I can just imagine why your wife left you.Bitter much?
 want to travel
Joined: 7/29/2006
Msg: 116
view profile
History
The Madonna/Whore Syndrome
Posted: 3/15/2012 11:50:35 AM
Heart on
I agree with most of what you say
I am very proud of razing my son,was very lucky, my sons mother and I had O drama, paid my child support, plus, we both saved enough to cover his education
but I really hate it when adult women in this society, whine abuse, and and use the term women and children
you know there is a difference , adult women can make choices
children are vulnerable
adult women are NOT!
 HeartOn64
Joined: 2/9/2012
Msg: 117
The Madonna/Whore Syndrome
Posted: 3/15/2012 12:18:47 PM

You know there is a difference , adult women can make choices children are vulnerable adult women are NOT!


Meaning no woman can be considered a victim? Is that what you mean?
 Balsamica
Joined: 2/24/2012
Msg: 118
The Madonna/Whore Syndrome
Posted: 3/15/2012 9:36:14 PM
hearton64, you like to beat the victim drum ... no one said an abused woman or one cheated on shouldn't divorce.

What you are selling is that traditional marriage is codependent and sick, not interdependent, which is the feminist mantra.

Susan Brownmiller, one of their glorious leaders, considered intercourse itself to be a form of RAPE and subjugation of women...
 Balsamica
Joined: 2/24/2012
Msg: 119
The Madonna/Whore Syndrome
Posted: 3/15/2012 9:46:47 PM
I'm not bitter at all, my divorce was amicable.....FYI.

I was in grad school in 1986 and a guest lecturer came in proposing a nation-wide network of "sick kid" daycare centers where kids who had something communicable could go instead of regular daycare. I asked if kids could get even sicker there and she said yes, it was a risk.

Being the misogynist that I am, I have a little problem with one month old infants being raised by minimum wage workers 9-5 as it is, but I asked why a parent couldn't stay home with their child when they were sick, especially an infant?

She told me, well, it's mostly the mothers that would have to and...blah, blah, blah.
Basically, its a place to dump your kids... especially for that single career woman on the go...so mommy wouldn't lost her place on the corporate ladder by missing that big board meeting because her child is sick, EVEN AT THE RISK OF THEM GETTING SICKER BY BEING AROUND OTHER SICK KIDS WHEN THEY SHOULD BE ISOLATED AT HOME.

I pointed out to the lady that this concept wasn't about children or their safety, it was just a way for women to protect their careers and compete with men and taxpayers should not support it. She gave me a dirty look and said, "well, it's here to stay..".

1986 was about when the feminist bullshit started to run out of steam and people had had enough, thank God.
 bronzcoco
Joined: 1/7/2012
Msg: 120
The Madonna/Whore Syndrome
Posted: 3/15/2012 10:05:04 PM
I am not familiar with the term Madonna/Whore Syndrome and I haven't read through the entries on this particular post, but for me, sex is so much better when there is an emotional/love connection. When you have that connection and that trust, sex can be anything you desire it to be. It can be passion-filled or it can be hot 'n' dirty. Just my opinion.
 HeartOn64
Joined: 2/9/2012
Msg: 121
The Madonna/Whore Syndrome
Posted: 3/16/2012 3:07:15 AM

hearton64, you like to beat the victim drum


I simply informed you why I wound up divorced and that it was MUCH better for my kids and I not to be in that situation because you accused women in general of leaving over nothing.



... no one said an abused woman or one cheated on shouldn't divorce.


Really? You said it,and you glorified marriage in the 50's when women were still "owned" by thier husbands.


What you are selling is that traditional marriage is codependent and sick, not interdependent, which is the feminist mantra.


Traditional marriage was codependant alot of time,especially back in the day when men drank like fish and cheated with "whores"and women stayed out of necessity and dealt with everything else.Who else would take care of the falling down drunks in thier lives?


How about this? You go live your Madonna/Whore Complexed existance and I will just say..........thankfully all men aren't like you.

 Balsamica
Joined: 2/24/2012
Msg: 122
The Madonna/Whore Syndrome
Posted: 3/16/2012 8:00:03 AM
hearton64, so back in the day men drank like fish and cheated on their wives while all the poor codependent wives had to suffer it, eh? Where do you get this information?

Is it a little colored by your own experience, perchance?
 Balsamica
Joined: 2/24/2012
Msg: 123
The Madonna/Whore Syndrome
Posted: 3/16/2012 9:02:14 AM
Here are a few comment by a woman writer who left an awful law career to be a housewife and mother:

"Many men have enjoyed the fact of women's increased sexual availability, they have sloughed off old wives and acquired young "trophies" under the sanction of no-fault divorce, they have encouraged abortions--thus avoiding responsibility for children they have bred--and they will willingly see women sent into combat to face the inevitable rape, injury, and death. In the eyes of such men, women are not uniquely precious individuals but only easily disposable sex objects. Contemporary feminism taught that lesson to men."

"The sexual revolution undermined the matrimonial strategy by encouraging women to engage in promiscuous sex on the same terms as men. As Richard Posner correctly notes in his book Sex and Reason, the "freer women are sexually, the less interest men have in marriage." Since their own interest in marriage was minimal or non-existent, feminist sexual revolutionaries urged women to abandon the ideals of premarital virginity and marital fidelity as vestiges of discredited Victorian morality. Premarital sex, they said, should be seen as a morally indifferent and harmless source of pleasure."

"A sea change has occurred in men who only several decades ago took pride in their ability to provide for wife and children. With scarcely a whimper, many men accepted the feminization of our society and capitulated to feminist demands that impaired men's own earning abilities. Then, they too encouraged their wives to leave children hostage to the vagaries of surrogate care and pursue the economic opportunities, which would spare husbands from assuming the role of breadwinner."

"Decrying the lives of housewives as a "waste of a human self," Friedan likened them to people "with portions of their brain shot away and schizophrenics." Housewives are "less than fully human," she wrote, for they "have never known a commitment to an idea," "risked an exploration of the unknown," or "attempted . . . creativity." For me, those euphoric years when I conceived, bore, and raised my children provided far greater opportunities to explore the unknown and exercise creativity than did my years in the workplace writing legal briefs."
 ladyc4
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 124
The Madonna/Whore Syndrome
Posted: 3/16/2012 10:49:21 AM

but I asked why a parent couldn't stay home with their child when they were sick, especially an infant?

She told me, well, it's mostly the mothers that would have to and...blah, blah, blah.
Basically, its a place to dump your kids... especially for that single career woman on the go

But, by and large, the people who would get the greatest benefit from a "sick bay" child-care facility would be the mothers who had been forced to leave a bad marriage, and has a male parent now withholding/dodging support payments-so that she MUST work to provide for herself and her children.

Or would you prefer that women in that situation just go on welfare so everyone can regard them as pieces of sh*t?
What about single fathers? or should they also leave the workforce and go on welfare? What about parents that are single due to the death of the pother parent? Not everyone has a fat life insurance policy,and Social Security Benefits are really not adequate to be the sole income source.
And not every female in the workforce is a white-collar corporate-ladder climber. Many of them are working to either IMPROVE the economic standing of their family, or they are working because they MUST.



so mommy wouldn't lost her place on the corporate ladder by missing that big board meeting because her child is sick
Well, the other alternative would be to force DADDY to stay home with the sick child.

Let me tell you something-it isn't the white collar single-parent families that suffer when the parent has to miss work because the sick child can't go to the care facility. It's the blue collar families...the factory workers, the store clerks, the nurses' aides,the schoolteachers, the shelf-stockers. Those are the ones who suffer when work must be missed to care for a child with a cold.



When you have that connection and that trust, sex can be anything you desire it to be. It can be passion-filled or it can be hot 'n' dirty. Just my opinion.

Couldn't agree more. It is not that easy to find the perfect combination, but when you do...there is nothing like it. Ever.

Absofreakinlutely.



hearton64, so back in the day men drank like fish and cheated on their wives while all the poor codependent wives had to suffer it, eh? Where do you get this information?

Is it a little colored by your own experience, perchance?

So what if it IS colored by her own experience? It sounds like your ideas and opinions are colored by your experiences.


So we should go back to women using sex as a means to an end? Refusing sex until there is a ring on the finger? So the only way men could get sex without following the "proper" steps was to pay for it or pick up promiscuous women?



and they will willingly see women sent into combat to face the inevitable rape, injury, and death.


Many women who support equality were and are willing to step up and accept combat duty as part of the RESPONSIBILITY that goes along with gender equality.



In the eyes of such men,


The operative word there would seem to be "SUCH" men-not all men. Yes, some men simply used the gender equality philosophy as another means to exploit women in a different way. How is that the fault of women that some men are just self-serving jerks looking for another way to punish women for their existence?



A sea change has occurred in men who only several decades ago took pride in their ability to provide for wife and children.


What I see in this "sea change" is COUPLES who take pride in their occupations and use the increased revenue to provide above and beyond necessity for the children, and in order to create greater financial security for a rainy day-or a better retirement.

Among my siblings-3 families relied on MOMS' occupation to provide affordable health insurance, while Dad built up a business, or maintained an occupation of choice.



Decrying the lives of housewives as a "waste of a human self," Friedan likened them to people "with portions of their brain shot away and schizophrenics." Housewives are "less than fully human," she wrote, for they "have never known a commitment to an idea," "risked an exploration of the unknown," or "attempted . . . creativity."


It's been my experience and observation that most women who support practical feminism, have absolutely no use for the rantings of Ms Friedan and other radical feminists.

The TRUE purpose of gender equality was-and is- to provide a greater range of CHOICE. It was not meant to devalue traditional roles for those who chose them. Of course you get the radicals and the fringe voices that damage the philosophy-but it's my opinion that those uber-feminists were doing and saying what they believed to be most effective in getting their point across,in aid of opening the dialogue which led to women being recognized as equal citizens.
Cindy O
 Balsamica
Joined: 2/24/2012
Msg: 125
The Madonna/Whore Syndrome
Posted: 3/16/2012 12:05:59 PM
"Feminists urged women to abandon homemaking and child-rearing as inferior activities and to enter the workplace so that women would become independent from men and gain equal political and economic power with them. In the words of economist Jennifer Roback Morse, a feminist who had second thoughts, the movement chose "'Having it All' as our slogan and equality of income as our goal," and so she says, "we embraced a shallow materialism and a mindless egalitarianism." Morse wisely asks: "When we harden our hearts to place a six week old baby into the care of strangers, who will moderate us?" The feminist egalitarianism that Morse speaks of is, it should be clear, only vis-à-vis men, not vis-à-vis other women. The movement has largely been concerned with professional women, and it is the most elitist of ideologies. Feminists denounce the worthlessness of homemaking and of child-rearing, yet the movement's goals require the existence of a servant class, a lower-class infrastructure of other women who will perform those domestic and child-rearing activities which feminists scorn."

Look familiar?

Our no-fault divorce regime that enables men to abandon and impoverish families was crucial to the feminist goal. By subverting housewives' social and economic security, no-fault enforces feminism's diktat that women must abandon homemaking for market production. Betty Friedan explained that feminist divorce policy purposely deprived women of alimony to force them into the workplace. No-fault tells mothers it is unsafe to devote oneself to raising children, warning them "that instead of expecting to be supported, a woman is now expected to become self-sufficient.""

Basically, you had upper middle class women who scorned motherhood and marriage, the majority of which embraced lesbianism, subverting traditional marriage and everyone bought into it under the guise of "equality". With it went the middle class and the ability for parents to make a better life for their children.

Now, in the vacuum, we have 1 in 3 kids born out of wedlock.......what are you looking for, 2 of 3? 3 of 3? ....and the media and corporations are so far up everyone's asses they make people's tongues wag.

You're not going to convince me that a home with two parents isn't the best possible arrangement for raising children, that they aren't declining, and it is a losing proposition all around for everyone.
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