Plentyoffish dating forums are a place to meet singles and get dating advice or share dating experiences etc. Hopefully you will all have fun meeting singles and try out this online dating thing... Remember that we are the largest free online dating service, so you will never have to pay a dime to meet your soulmate.
     
Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > New ID voter law? [CLOSED]      Home login  
 AUTHOR
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 376
New ID voter law?Page 16 of 29    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29)

. By the way... I do not care what color a community is. Just the fact that an entire community could be shown, legitimately, to not be able to meet the requirements of the voterID law means that community could also be excluded from meeting the requirements for this election...

So where is the justification of the law when it is clear it does nothing other than make it more difficult for some people to vote and does not address the issue of voter fraud as that is another matter all together.

So it is clear the rule has been put in place not to stop voter fraud but to make it harder for a certain group of people to vote. That is an undisputed fact.

So why would you not as an American stand up for your fellow Americans right when clearly they are being trampled on?

Is it because they are mostly of a certain color of that they subscribe to a different political philosophy?

Do you have any proof that would contradict what I have said and show that picture ID would address vote fraud and change the numbers? Do you have any proof that voter fraud that could be stopped with these types of rules accounts for such a small % that is is barely even measurable?
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 377
view profile
History
New ID voter law?
Posted: 9/14/2012 3:06:56 PM

Do you have any proof that would contradict what I have said and show that picture ID would address vote fraud and change the numbers? Do you have any proof that voter fraud that could be stopped with these types of rules accounts for such a small % that is is barely even measurable?


The Texas ruling discusssed earlier. They used the words 'minorities' they injected it as being based on race in the ruling. The results were that dislocated communites would be disenfranchised.

It makes no logical sense to draw a circle around a dmv or whatever source for obtaining an ID and saying 'everyone outside of this circle is a poor non white democrat liberal' and then saying, "Lets create a rule that these people will have a harder time to get an ID from here so we can eliminate their vote."

It makes more sense to say, "After the rules were established you can draw a circle around this source for obtaining ID's and show that these communities do not have the resources nor accessibility to obtain." Fix it or the law is out.

There is nothing but leftism to support the claim of racism and it is destructive to the communities that were disenfranchised to 'classify them' as, "Poor minorities that are incapable of self sufficiency and dignity" which is what you do every time you call them inferior.

But you don't hear that because of your world view that everyone non white is subjugated by rich white guys.
It is even more comical that you are one of the rich white guys but think you care more because you will take other peoples money and put them to programs that support your world view.

I don't necessarily think you are racist. I think you just haven't really thought how the things you support keep it alive.
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 378
New ID voter law?
Posted: 9/14/2012 3:51:17 PM

It makes more sense to say, "After the rules were established you can draw a circle around this source for obtaining ID's and show that these communities do not have the resources nor accessibility to obtain." Fix it or the law is out.

Yes because creating new rules that you know are not right and saying fix them is the smart logical fiscally responsible thing to do, even when all evidence points to the fact the rules do not do what they are indented to do.

So regardless of the outcome of installing the rules the rule has no reason to exist, so to suggest that it should be implemented and then fixed later is a very unreasonable, and to spend tax dollars in a very irresponsible way in my opinion.

So maybe are less of a fiscal conservative and more of a liberal than you though, as your idea really just sounds like wasteful government spending to fix a non-existent problem.




...It is even more comical that you are one of the rich white guys but think you care more because you will take other peoples money and put them to programs that support your world view.

Funny that eh, someone who cares enough about others to admit and point out injustices even though they may impact him in what may been seen as a negative, but in reality it is just less of a positive.




I don't necessarily think you are racist. I think you just haven't really thought how the things you support keep it alive.

How does my support against a law that has no purpose seen as anything racial?

You have yet to show there is good reason for this law, until you do that I will not necessarily think you are delusional, I will just think you lack the desire or ability to see the facts.
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 379
New ID voter law?
Posted: 9/14/2012 4:17:25 PM

Leftism clouds your mind from solutions


And the fascist creates a solution, in the form of voter ID laws, to fix a non-existant problem...therefore, the only reason to enact voter ID laws, and therefore, the true solution...is to get that black man out of the whitehouse.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 380
view profile
History
New ID voter law?
Posted: 9/14/2012 4:35:41 PM

You have yet to show there is good reason for this law, until you do that I will not necessarily think you are delusional, I will just think you lack the desire or ability to see the facts.


I can't.... I think I have already given reason that it 'could' be supported and why it would make sense. However, none of those reason are used to officially justify it. So, I'm not not going change my mind about how I think it could be justified but am actually not going to support it because the reasons used to justify it are not being verbalized in a way that makes them supportable.

Sorry, it is a good idea to stabilize the voting process and to add another layer of accounting to quickly and decisively address contested election results. However, the only reason I've seen presented is voter fraud and that isn't proven good enough. There is a case to be made with it but so far nothing but anecdotal evidence.
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 381
New ID voter law?
Posted: 9/14/2012 4:40:43 PM

Sorry, it is a good idea to stabilize the voting process and to add another layer of accounting to quickly and decisively address contested election results.


I for one would like to call bullshyte on this explaination...almost all challanged elections have to do with the ballot count...not the validity of the ballot...and those that challange the validity deal with absentee voting...in all these cases voter ID laws are non-issues
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 382
view profile
History
New ID voter law?
Posted: 9/14/2012 4:43:15 PM

I for one would like to call bullshyte on this explaination...almost all challanged elections have to do with the ballot count...not the validity of the ballot...and those that challange the validity deal with absentee voting...in all these cases voter ID laws are non-issues


Thanks once again for more evidence that you do not read very well. They have classes that can help with that. It is nothing to be ashamed of. It isn't only poverty level people that have literacy issues. Many programs are here to help.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 383
view profile
History
New ID voter law?
Posted: 9/14/2012 4:48:35 PM

And the fascist creates a solution, in the form of voter ID laws, to fix a non-existant problem


Wherever a state has a voter ID law, that law, like any state law, presumably reflects the will of the majority of that state's residents as expressed through their elected legislators. If, as you claim, it was fascists who created those laws, that makes more than half the residents of a number of states--many millions of Americans--fascists. Really? Who knew? That is just the kind of intelligence and reasoning I have learned to expect from people with your political views.

In any case, just what business is it of yours what the residents of other states choose to do? It's their opinion that voter ID laws are necessary in their states that's relevant--your opinion that they fix a non-existent problem doesn't count. If you think these state laws somehow violate the U.S. Constitution, you haven't explained just how or why they do that. The Supreme Court in 2009 didn't think Indiana's voter ID law was constitutional--maybe you'd like to make the case for why some other state's voter ID law is not. But I'd advise against it. Stay in the shallow end--paying attention to facts and trying to think seriously is likely to give any so-called liberal a headache. Calling people fascists whenever their ideas challenge your leftist quasi-religion is much more your speed.
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 384
New ID voter law?
Posted: 9/14/2012 4:50:05 PM

Thanks once again for more evidence that you do not read very well. They have classes that can help with that. It is nothing to be ashamed of. It isn't only poverty level people that have literacy issues. Many programs are here to help.


When all else fails...and you have no ligitimate argument to add to the debate...lowering yourself in personal attacks just shows how sad a person you truly are.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 385
view profile
History
New ID voter law?
Posted: 9/14/2012 4:53:43 PM

When all else fails...and you have no ligitimate argument to add to the debate...lowering yourself in personal attacks just shows how sad a person you truly are

As opposed to you calling me a fascist?
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 386
New ID voter law?
Posted: 9/14/2012 5:00:32 PM

As opposed to you calling me a fascist?


Well, I'm sure you're fimiliar with the terms leftist, socialist, and communist since you use them so often...but, your new level of personal attacks are beneith even the worst of the fascists.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 387
view profile
History
New ID voter law?
Posted: 9/14/2012 5:10:08 PM

Well, I'm sure you're fimiliar with the terms leftist, socialist, and communist since you use them so often...but, your new level of personal attacks are beneith even the worst of the fascists.


Leftism is the ideology that is the extreme form of liberalism. The desired outcome of leftism is to ease the society into a state in which a rebellion is achieved to overthrow capitalism and move the society towards socialism which in itself is an ongoing struggle between equality and the rich oppressors resolved by communism and the rejection of the material world.

So, which ideology do most of your positions fit with? You can call me a fascist all day long. It doesn't fit.

Fascism was founded during World War I by Italian national syndicalists who combined left-wing and right-wing political views.[6][7] Fascists have commonly opposed having a firm association with any section of the left-right spectrum, considering it inadequate to describe their beliefs,[8][9] though fascism's goal to promote the rule of people deemed innately superior while seeking to purge society of people deemed innately inferior is identified as a prominent far-right theme.[10]


You could have a bit of that by saying that because I support American values that I am nationalistic. Also, I do not support 100% voter turnout because I think it is not possible to do without making it illegal to not vote. So, in that sense I guess you could say that I promote inequality. My version is called 'self-determination' where people have the right to choose for themselves as well as to have the opportunity to succeed and fail and sometimes failing means you have to keep trying because there may not be a government hand to pick you up after making a bad decision. The same rules that apply to myself from my parents and that I also did with my child. Self reliance.

Go vote. No one is stopping you.
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 388
New ID voter law?
Posted: 9/14/2012 5:34:26 PM
Leftism is the ideology that is the extreme form of liberalism. The desired outcome of leftism is to ease the society into a state in which a rebellion is achieved to overthrow capitalism and move the society towards socialism which in itself is an ongoing struggle between equality and the rich oppressors resolved by communism and the rejection of the material world.


Well, this is your interpretation of leftism....and of course, your view is that all democrats are leftists...still, your view that leftist are anti-capitalists is just wrong...and we democrats are rebelling and overthrowing the government...hell, we're 50% of government right now...your position is we wish to overthrow ourselves...waddeva...is this your intreptation iof what a leftist is...perhaps you could provide a sourse citing what a leftist is...because I beleive that you are wrong in what a leftist is.

Thing is...most democrats want to have a balanced budget and to move towards eliminating the national debt..how we wish to go about doing it is where we differ dramatically...we don't wish to feed the industrial military machine, the pentagon, NSA, or the military machine at the expense of those americans in the greatest need...we don't wish to fund the military machine and leave our children un-educated. America already spends 25% of GDP on healthcare...and the healthcare we currently and have recieved in the past is amongst the lowest level of healthcare in the industrialized world...with absolutely no incentive to hold the cost of care down-afterall, shareholders are more important than patient care....and I could go on and on about the vast devide democrats and republicans have about achieving a balanced budget and reducing the debt, but it goes on deaf ears.


It doesn't fit


It fits as well as leftist, socialist, and communist fits.


You could have a bit of that by saying that because I support American values that I am nationalistic


And I support America values....apparently, being the poor white trash you called me...our values differ.


Go vote


LOL...now I need your permission??? Ego clean-up isle 8....ego clean-upisle 8
 OyVay...
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 389
New ID voter law?
Posted: 9/14/2012 5:48:25 PM
Oh my! HAHAHAHAHA! Now THAT'S a beauty and a whopper at the same time!

"In any case, just what business is it of yours what the residents of other states choose to do?"

Are you obtuse? Or is this an act? When the election is for president of the United States of America, no state or small group of states gets to defraud all of us by electing beliefs or a candidate by rigging a national election! This would be tantamount to disenfranchising possibly a majority of the country's electorate, by a few state congress's. Not unlike the idiot trying to get the President off the ballot in Kansas with his birther nonsense.

If ever something was facist, it would be a concept like this...
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 390
view profile
History
New ID voter law?
Posted: 9/14/2012 7:01:56 PM

And I support America values....apparently, being the poor white trash you called me...our values differ.


I wouldn't call you that... and switching up your opinions to suit what sounds like the right thing to do is also typical. If no one is liberal and your democrats then why is there such a battle between left and right?

You not holding the cost of care down you are rebuilding the system to cause instability to destabalize insurance companies and replace them with a goverment provider.

come on... It isn't that well hidden. Same with the Voter crap. Do you even know where that comes from? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism

It's easy to say you want 'everyone' to vote. It is easier to say that when you include the young college age kids and those that have been living on goverment assistance through multiple generations. The former want to save the world yet have no experience, the later need to make sure they are stable.

We are not a pure democracy for a reason. That reason is because those things that 'everyone' votes for will lead to instability and eventually voting away of liberty to live under a totalitarian government. They were not wrong then and they are not wrong now. There is no state religion to protect us from the eventual authoritarian rule of that. You agree with that one right?

If you have 'American' values than why doesn't this one seem to be voiced? Or did you say it in a way I may not have caught?
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 391
New ID voter law?
Posted: 9/14/2012 7:45:21 PM

and switching up your opinions


Now who lacks the ability to comprehend the written word...never have my views changed...you and the likes of matchstick are the ones who use terms like un-American-hate the country-love it or leave it...yada yada yada bullshit...

Nearly every person living in America, bar a very few, feel like they are true Americans...much as you do-even with your fascist views.

Thing is....that voter ID laws are thinly veiled mechanisms, devised by the republicants, much like the jim crow laws of the dixie democrats...in order to limit the voting of the poor, the elderly, the disabled, college students, and minorities...all done in order to rig the 2012 presidential election....and yea, blacks and hispanics are the minorities that republicants want to disinfranchise from voting....their view is much like matchstick said...they mirror those of that great elder statesman Thomas Jefferson's view on blacks.


It's easy to say you want 'everyone' to vote


You confuse me with someone else...my viewpoint is that every eligible voter who wishes to vote should have the right to vote and not have poll taxes or undo restrictions place upon them...hey, if you don't want to vote...I won't twist your arm.



come on... It isn't that well hidden. Same with the Voter crap. Do you even know where that comes from? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_socialism


Are you playing stupid??? I asked about the defination of leftism...not socialism...because these terms are not synonymous...and frankly, confusing the french leftist with the left leaning liberal democrats in America is disinginuous...how many of our neighbors from the north have said that a left leaning democrat in the States would be a conservative in Canada?

You, and all your uber conservative evangelical reich wing fascist republicants have earned the name fascist when you, in your atempt to polarize Americans, call democrats socialist, leftist, and communist.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 392
view profile
History
New ID voter law?
Posted: 9/14/2012 8:24:19 PM

You, and all your uber conservative evangelical reich wing fascist republicants have earned the name fascist when you, in your atempt to polarize Americans, call democrats socialist, leftist, and communist


So, I'm guessing you don't believe that it is, or ever was, part of the history of the United States. I'm assuming that any concern with it was either made up by Ronald Reagan or was obliterated out of existence when the wall came down.

There is an old saying... something about history... Oh what is it.. those that don't learn form history are... bound to repeat it?
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 393
New ID voter law?
Posted: 9/14/2012 8:39:49 PM

So, I'm guessing you don't believe that it is, or ever was, part of the history of the United States. I'm assuming that any concern with it was either made up by Ronald Reagan or was obliterated out of existence when the wall came down.

There is an old saying... something about history... Oh what is it.. those that don't learn form history are... bound to repeat it?


Is it your view that every democrat was a member of the communist party? Why are you so scared of democrats that you feel you must group every one of them as socialist, communist, and leftist...and just because you obviously do not know...none of these terms are synonymous....quite frankly, your views are quite scary...it must be difficult to sleep at night with all those commies and Islamics under the bed.

To funny...one can now view republicants in terms like: Jim Crow, dixie democrat, voter ID
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 394
view profile
History
New ID voter law?
Posted: 9/14/2012 10:12:11 PM
This is the daily worker which was the communist paper back in 1924.
http://goo.gl/vayOq


There is a philosophical problem with 'equality' that is ignored by those who claim to be for it. You can't have equality without force. It is as simple as that. American values are self determination and liberty. It does not value loss of liberty to equality. The word equality is misconstrued with 'all men are created equal' but that does not say 'guaranteed equal outcome in life'.

Voting is a right. We do not vote for national issues other than President. We vote locally where it is of direct impact to us. When we ask the federal government to do things we only get the interpretation of elected officials version of it. We do not get a vote. If we spread the vote to national issues we have a democracy and then we are screwed.

It is not a simple issue to claim you want national coverage for issues at state level. The reason Match sounds like he is all crazy about the constitution is because it was designed and created specifically to protect against all of these things because a few hundred years ago it was already known that nationalizing everything doesn't end well. It is very clear. It is the law. It is the operating law our Government is supposed to follow. If you don't uphold your own governments law then under what legitimacy is any law?

Technology has made the world smaller and it is easy to forget that it is only small in some areas. If you nationalize things like healthcare you all of the sudden feel the 300 million people individually and it is too much. Caring for over 300 million people from a central location means it is an insanely huge number that is a bill to the people. The inevitable result is always going to be that 'the bill is too high' and there can be no alternative but to cut or go bankrupt.

There is no presented case where any of this works out and it is my position that people have not thought this through to what happens after implementation. They have forgotten the origins of the arguments and because we have a very poor record of teaching history there is no ingrained memory of why we are structured the way we are. What we have is the ongoing and constant struggle with newly educated kids that have all the best intentions but no experience. The problem is that many of those kids from the past never applied experience and are deadset that they no better than all of history that they were never properly taught.

Give me a good reason why an 18 year old should be able to vote when they can't enter a bar. Give me the most likely political position he will take. Then again tell me why should that opinion be given equal value to someone that is 25 years old and starting a family.

Idealism is good in individuals but in politics idealism is a weapon.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 395
view profile
History
New ID voter law?
Posted: 9/14/2012 10:20:27 PM

Are you obtuse? Or is this an act?


Neither.


? When the election is for president of the United States of America, no state or small group of states gets to defraud all of us by electing beliefs or a candidate by rigging a national election!


That is true. In essence, that's what the Supreme Court was saying in Bush v. Gore in 2000. I'm glad to see you agree. If it's only a question of whether the law violates the *state* constitution, as seems to be the case with Wisconsin's voter ID law, that's up to Wisconsin--and *only* Wisconsin. You're ignoring the part where I pointed out that if the poster was claiming any state voter ID law violated the U.S. Constitution, he hadn't offered any specifics. A state election law may affect a national election and yet not raise any federal constitutional issues for the Supreme Court to decide.


If ever something was facist, it would be a concept like this...


I assume you're using that word, once again, as a cheap insult, with very little understanding of what fascism is.
 billingsmason
Joined: 2/3/2012
Msg: 396
New ID voter law?
Posted: 9/16/2012 12:39:04 PM
If this does in fact effect 5 million votes- that would be slightly less than 5% and yes- could make a difference.....
to someone. Not the election.

If popular vote actually elected our president.....
It does not. If fact- only 270 select Americans are needed to elect our President. That is the majority in the electoral college, out of a total 538 total members. Theoretically it's possible for 11 states to choose who leads our nation.
If the electoral college doesn't have a decisive winner, it falls to the house of representatives. Each states' reps cast a collective vote for their state, majority wins. Thomas Jefferson was elected this way.

The popular vote doesn't matter but generally follows how the college votes. It has been upstaged three times:
1876- R.B. Hayes was elected after losing the popular vote.
1888- B. Harrison was elected after losing the popular vote.
2000-G.W. Bush was elected after losing the popular vote.

The President isn't actually chosen until the first Monday after the second Wednesday in December. (This may reflect the difficulties our nations' leaders have in scheduling time to accommodate their duties.... "Martha, was it the second Monday following the first Wednesday, or... ")


To the original questions..... yes this is a good way for the conservative party to reduce the number of liberal voters, by eliminating all folks without proper ID. Also a good way to prevent non-citizens from voting, or people voting more than once. Realistically- who doesn't have a state ID card or drivers license?

If popular vote doesn't choose the President, why does it even matter? Why not organize the entire population to go out and vote for Donald Duck, for all the good it does us? Better yet- how about a ballot for the balancing of our books and fixing the deficiencies in this country, before we're allowed to play outside...
 OyVay...
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 397
New ID voter law?
Posted: 9/16/2012 1:03:36 PM
The whole argument of "voter fraud" makes no sense. IF a person were to do it, they could vote ONCE in person. So you are talking ONE VOTE...why would someone do that? They risk jail, for ONE VOTE, that could never sway an election!

Even if this were done on a larger scale, of say 20 people, it's STILL only 20 votes! Again those 20 people are risking jail. Now if this were to take place in a local election in a very small town, say 683 residents, then maybe it could sway something. Then again, I doubt in a town that size, someone wouldn't say "hey roger, you voted already what are you doing here again?"

In a national election even a scheme to vote 500 or even 5,000 may not make a difference in a town of millions!

Now for something that massive, do you really believe 5,000 could keep their mouths shut about the fraud? If 5 people know a secret, it's often one of them lets the cat out of the bag...

Again I see we have the question..."who doesn't have a state ID?"

Older people...many don't drive, many don't need one, their social security checks are "direct deposit". Poor people, many don't own cars, can't afford cars. So why would you pay for something you won't use?
 Blalah
Joined: 3/25/2012
Msg: 398
New ID voter law?
Posted: 9/16/2012 2:06:54 PM
^^^ All that makes sense.
 unYOUsual
Joined: 8/11/2011
Msg: 399
New ID voter law?
Posted: 9/17/2012 4:55:53 AM
15 to 20million illegal immigrants in America who are told that they should be entitled to everything that a Citizen is afforded, you think they don't think that they have the "Right" to vote and do what they can to exercise their "Right"...

So your argument is that voter Fraud does exist and that ID would help eliminate it but since it is not on a scale that you have determined to be problematic ending the fraud is not worth it...

Reading posts from most of you who are against voter ID laws made me realize that so many of you have no faith in America and our Constitution...IF any Citizen has their Right to vote negatively impacted by voter ID laws there will be assistance and vehicles in place to insure that they can exercise their right..

Hypotheticals based on a biased study really isn't much proof of voter disenfranchisement...

So there are States that have voter ID laws how many people have actually had their right to vote violated?
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 400
New ID voter law?
Posted: 9/17/2012 5:05:16 AM
My question is how do illegal alien residents get on the voter rolls? The answer is plain...they do not.
Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > New ID voter law? [CLOSED]