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Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > New ID voter law? [CLOSED]      Home login  
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 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 201
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New ID voter law?Page 9 of 29    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29)

And if you can show its actually likely true that 81 thousand poor people couldn't register in May then make a case of why that makes sense.

It doesn't concern me enough to argue about it because I'm not subject to it. I just thought it was interesting that the predicted effect did indeed come about, and it appears that it will benefit those who it was predicted it would, who just happen to be the ones proposing these kinds of rules.

If you think all that is a coincidence, have at it.


In 2005, Mark “Thor” Hearne, a lawyer who had worked for the Bush-Cheney political campaign, founded the American Center for Voting Rights.

The center produced one 72-page report: “Vote Fraud, Intimidation, & Suppression in the 2004 Presidential Election,” which was submitted to a House committee chaired by Ohio Congressman Bob Ney (who would later do time for his role in the Jack Abramoff scandal).

The report included no documented account of any individual impersonating another at a polling place. Yet it recommended that “[s]tates should adopt legislation requiring government-issued photo ID at the polls and for any voter seeking to vote by mail or by absentee ballot.”

...in 2009, the American Legislative Council drafted the model legislation that Republican legislators would use a template for their bills. (ALEC is a Republican outfit that receives more than 98 percent of its funding from corporate lobbyists.)

In 2011, Republicans in 38 states introduced legislation that would make state-approved photo-ID cards a requirement to vote.

How pervasive was the fraud that informed the voter-ID campaign?

Indiana was one of the earliest states to pass a voter-ID bill, in 2007. In separate opinions upholding the law, Appeals Court Justice Richard Posner and Supreme Court Justice Stephen Breyer observed that attorneys representing the state of Indiana could provide no evidence of voter-identification fraud. “As far as anyone knows,” Posner wrote, “no one in Indiana, and not many people elsewhere, are known to have been prosecuted for impersonating a registered voter.”

Justin Levitt, a Loyola Law School professor who works with the Brennan Center for Justice, has been gathering evidence of polling-place voter fraud. “I keep an open door,” Levitt said. “I think I’m up to 11 or 12 possible attempts that people have pointed to across the country since 2000. There have been about 400 million ballots cast in general elections...since 2000.”


Levitt won’t comment on intent, but he points to the “character of the electorate” most affected by the voter-ID requirement. Viewed through this lens, intent is evident. Faced with an increase in minority populations—which tend to vote Democratic—Republican state legislatures are holding the future at bay.

The Wisconsin Legislative Fiscal Bureau, for example, found that 20 percent of Wisconsin’s residents do not now have the identification required to vote. That includes 70 percent of African-Americans under the age of 25, 177,000 elderly people, 36 percent of young voters, and approximately 224,000 college students whose student ID cards fail to meet their state’s new ID requirement. In brief: a lot of potential Democratic voters. Similar biases against minority voters can be found in every voter-suppression bill enacted across the country.

And there is more to voter-ID laws than the voter-ID requirement. Florida has reduced the number of early voting days, cut in half the number of early voting hours, ended voting on the final Sunday before the election, and imposed tough restrictions on civic groups conducting voter-registration campaigns.

Testifying at a Senate Judiciary subcommittee hearing on January 25, University of Florida political science Professor Daniel A. Smith questioned the color-blind provisions in Florida’s 2011 law:

[E]ven though African Americans comprised only 13 percent of total voters and 22 percent of early voters in Florida in the 2008 General Election, they accounted for 31 percent of early voters on the final Sunday of early voting. Hispanic voters, who comprised 11 percent of total voters and 11 percent of early voters in the 2008 general election, accounted for 22 percent of the early voters on the final Sunday of early voting.

By closing polling places on Sunday, Florida shuts down the nonpartisan, church-based “Souls to the Polls” campaigns in African-American and Hispanic congregations.

Reducing the period in which volunteer registrars are required to turn in completed forms from 10 days to 48 hours makes voting drives impossible. That single measure will drive down registration among African-Americans and Latinos, who are more than twice as likely as white voters to register through such drives, according to Judith Browne-Dianis, a civil rights lawyer at the Advancement Project.

Bill Clinton.... said: “Why is all of this going on? This is not rocket science. They are trying to make the 2012 electorate look more like the 2010 [Tea Party backlash] electorate than the 2008 electorate [that elected Obama]. There has never been in my lifetime, since we got rid of the poll tax and all the Jim Crow burdens on voting, the determined effort to limit the franchise that we see today.”
http://www.washingtonspectator.org/index.php/Republicans-Rock-the-Vote/how-voter-id-laws-suppress-registration-drives-and-block-democratic-votes.html



Florida, which is expected to be a vital swing state once again in this year’s presidential election, is enrolling fewer new voters than it did four years ago as prominent civic organizations have suspended registration drives because of what they describe as onerous restrictions imposed last year by Republican state officials.

The state’s new elections law — which requires groups that register voters to turn in completed forms within 48 hours or risk fines, among other things — has led the state’s League of Women Voters to halt its efforts this year. Rock the Vote, a national organization that encourages young people to vote, began an effort last week to register high school students around the nation — but not in Florida, over fears that teachers could face fines. And on college campuses, the once-ubiquitous folding tables piled high with voter registration forms are now a rarer sight.

Florida, which reminded the nation of the importance of every vote in the disputed presidential election in 2000 when it reported that George W. Bush had won by 537 votes, is now seeing a significant drop-off in new voter registrations. In the months since its new law took effect in May, 81,471 fewer Floridians have registered to vote than during the same period before the 2008 presidential election, according to an analysis of registration data by The New York Times. All told, there are 11.3 million voters registered in the state.

It is difficult to say just how much of the decrease is due to the restrictions in the law, and how much to demographic changes, a lack of enthusiasm about politics or other circumstances, including the fact that there was no competitive Democratic presidential primary this year. But new registrations dropped sharply in some areas where the voting-age population has been growing, the analysis found, including Miami-Dade County, where they fell by 39 percent, and Orange County, where they fell by a little more than a fifth. Some local elections officials said that the lack of registration drives by outside groups has been a factor in the decline.

In Volusia County, where new registrations dropped by nearly a fifth compared with the same period four years ago, the supervisor of elections, Ann McFall, said that she attributed much of the change to the new law. “The drop-off is our League of Women Voters, our five universities in Volusia County, none of which are making a concentrated effort this year,” Ms. McFall said.


Florida’s law — which is being challenged in court by civic groups and, in counties covered by the Voting Rights Act, the Justice Department — is one of more than a dozen that states have passed in recent years that have made it harder to vote by requiring voters to show photo identification at polls, reducing early voting periods or making it more difficult to register.

Republicans, who have passed nearly all of the new voting laws, say the restrictions are needed to prevent fraud. Democrats note that such fraud almost never happens, and say that the laws will make it harder for young people and members of minorities, who tend to support Democrats, to vote.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/28/us/restrictions-on-voter-registration-in-florida-have-groups-opting-out.html?_r=3&pagewanted=all



Although the new rules have been in effect less than a year, University of Florida political scientist Daniel Smith says its clear they're already having an impact.
An analysis he did that was built upon by The New York Times shows that in the first eight months the law was in effect, 81,000 fewer new voters were added to the registration rolls compared with the same period four years earlier.

"What we've seen very clearly is that there's been a drop-off in new registrations across the state of Florida," says Smith. "And that indicates that these groups like the League of Women Voters, the Boy Scouts and others that have engaged in voter registration in past years that are not doing so have had an effect. We have less younger people registering to vote in the state of Florida."

Along with restricting third-party groups conducting registration drives, Florida's new election rules also cut back on the number of days polls are open for early voting. And they require those who change their addresses on Election Day to cast provisional ballots.

Camila Gallardo of NCLR says those are all measures that disproportionately affect minorities. She doesn't think that's a coincidence.
"Minorities are more likely to register [to vote] through a third-party voter organization like NCLR. So, you know, you can't help but think that this is in some way targeted," says Gallardo. "And if you look at the arguments about, 'Oh, this is to curb voter fraud,' voter fraud does not usually occur at the voter registration level."
http://www.npr.org/2012/05/14/152517589/in-florida-registering-voters-a-whole-new-game



Making a claim that a crime is committed requires facts. Not make believe.

Does that also apply to the alleged necessity for the new restrictive rules? Because, so far, it seems no one has been able to show there actually is wide spread voter fraud, which is the the alleged 'crime' the rules are allegedly designed to prevent.

And as you say, "Making a claim that a crime is committed requires facts".
 wildirishrosetoo
Joined: 5/12/2012
Msg: 202
New ID voter law?
Posted: 5/17/2012 6:03:20 AM
Clearly, the Dems want to be able to cheat and allow the illegals to vote. In fact, at its' base, the entire open borders movement is really about displacing whites. Voter fraud is simply one aspect of a broader movement.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 203
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New ID voter law?
Posted: 5/17/2012 7:54:26 AM
Does that also apply to the alleged necessity for the new restrictive rules? Because, so far, it seems no one has been able to show there actually is wide spread voter fraud, which is the the alleged 'crime' the rules are allegedly designed to prevent.

And as you say, "Making a claim that a crime is committed requires facts".


Yes.

http://assets.opencrs.com/rpts/98-194_20101102.pdf

From 1933 to 2009 (the 73rd Congress through the 111th Congress), the U.S. House of Representatives considered 107 contested election cases. The vast majority of these cases were resolved in favor of the contestee, a term referring to a Member or Member-elect of the House of Representatives whose election was challenged. The term contestant refers to an individual who challenged the election of a Member-elect of the House of Representatives


If you do a Google search for 'voter fraud' you don't get much. However, change that to "contested elections" and you get a different picture. It is often ruled that fraud claims are said to be false but that doesn't stop the claims of fraud from occurring. Tightening up the restrictions on voting to be able to claim a 'reasonable effort' was made to validate voting process will provide the necessary evidence that can be used to refute and reduce the length of time and cost of contested election claims. Contested elections have the potential to cause large scale social unrest and mistrust of government. More is needed to be protected against these situations.

No, I am not claiming this is "their" justification. However, having a legitimate election is a "reasonable expectation" and should require "reasonable effort" to achieve. Showing an ID is reasonable.
 SAguy_06
Joined: 10/8/2009
Msg: 204
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New ID voter law?
Posted: 5/17/2012 9:06:36 AM
Paul K...

Requiring ID for "less importantant" transactions is not the question. Its a State vs. Federal Gov issue. A state cannot deny a constitutional right. The only way is a federal law or constitutional amendment requiring ID while voting.

States, in the pass, used to have voters pass a test or pay a "poll" tax as a way to restrict voting. The state of Texas has to apply to the DOJ if it wants to implement any new voting rules because of past infractions.

If a state wants a law requiring ID, then that ID has to be obtainable by all voters with no burden to the voter. If the state wants voter ID, then the state should issue the ID at its expense... not that of the voter.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 205
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New ID voter law?
Posted: 5/17/2012 9:46:41 AM
If a state wants a law requiring ID, then that ID has to be obtainable by all voters with no burden to the voter. If the state wants voter ID, then the state should issue the ID at its expense... not that of the voter.


Can you please describe those that would be impacted? When you have a description visit the census website and look up a state that is relevant to you and find the population that fits your criteria. That state must also be attempting to implement rules that you think would be denying people to vote. Once you find them then show how they do not qualify for assistance. Now for those that fit your qualifications and do not qualify for assistance then you would need to show their desire or ability to participate in an election cycle.

Basically you will be talking about a very very small minority of people that most likely cannot participate or do not wish to participate.

Also, please show that it is unconstitutional for a state to restrict the right to vote in any way. There are already restrictions on it, age, criminal history, citizenship, etc.
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 206
New ID voter law?
Posted: 5/17/2012 9:56:28 AM

Can you please describe those that would be impacted?

American citizens who thought that they would have an equal opportunity to have their voices heard.




Basically you will be talking about a very very small minority of people that most likely cannot participate or do not wish to participate.

Yeah come on people it is only a small minority that are going to not be able to vote and when you really think of it they are probably just poor and most likely a minority, so do the American thing and sweep them under the rug because they really do not matter.



At the end of the day if you are not able to disseminate what these proposed vote ID laws do, then you have not been able to disseminate the information and or read the information proved in this thread.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 207
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New ID voter law?
Posted: 5/17/2012 10:04:15 AM
Also, please show that it is unconstitutional for a state to restrict the right to vote in any way.


He can't, because it's not. You hit it on the head--if it were, state laws denying the vote to ex-felons, minors, and aliens would be unconstitutional.

The Constitution protects rights that were widely accepted in America when it was written. It wasn't accepted here in 1787, or earlier in England, that jailbirds and kids and foreigners had a right to vote that government could not take away.


More people are hit by lightening in this country every year , than commit voter fraud.


I wonder how you know that. When someone gets hit by lightning, there's seldom much doubt. How would anyone know if a person had voted fraudulently? It's like knowing who's riding the train for free, if no one checks for tickets.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 208
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New ID voter law?
Posted: 5/17/2012 10:16:15 AM

Yeah come on people it is only a small minority that are going to not be able to vote and when you really think of it they are probably just poor and most likely a minority, so do the American thing and sweep them under the rug because they really do not matter.



At the end of the day if you are not able to disseminate what these proposed vote ID laws do, then you have not been able to disseminate the information and or read the information proved in this thread.


Show who they are. They are not mythical creatures right. Who are they? One or two anecdotal stories is not evidence. Show the widespread discrimination that is being asserted. Something other than your feelings.

Also, what tangible evidence do you recommend be used to validate a contested election? Just rule it valid and move on?
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 209
New ID voter law?
Posted: 5/17/2012 10:32:46 AM

Show who they are. They are not mythical creatures right. Who are they? One or two anecdotal stories is not evidence...

So where are these illegal voters, are they mythical creatures? Who are they?




...Show the widespread discrimination that is being asserted. Something other than your feelings.

Do not worry about it, like I said early they are only poor non-white people so you really should not care anyway at the end of the say they do not affect you personal, so if a few of the get squeezed out, meh no biggy, probably their own fault they are poor anyway, so the deserve to be discriminated against.

If you do not know how these people will be discriminated against, then that ok because it is just because you do not understand or you maybe have a vested interested in pretending to not understand, but either way it is clear you do not understand.




Also, what tangible evidence do you recommend be used to validate a contested election? Just rule it valid and move on?

Why not use the existing rules to validate in.

Unless you are for bigger government and increased spending, then sure go ahead and put more measure in-place to stop something that is not really happening, which then I totally understand.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 210
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History
New ID voter law?
Posted: 5/17/2012 11:05:00 AM

Unless you are for bigger government and increased spending, then sure go ahead and put more measure in-place to stop something that is not really happening, which then I totally understand.


I already showed that population rates do not indicate support problems with new voter registrations. I already showed that contested elections are a problem and a formal minimum level of voter verification process will relieve social pressures as well as reduce costs and save tax payer money and frustration.

The only stand I see is the evil racist claim. You have a mighty strong faith there.
 want to travel
Joined: 7/29/2006
Msg: 211
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New ID voter law?
Posted: 5/17/2012 11:25:56 AM
As a Canadian, I have always had to show picture ID
but then as a Canadian, I never enjoyed someof the personal liberty's, American citizens used to have!
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 212
New ID voter law?
Posted: 5/19/2012 9:07:36 AM

Only those who want to march hordes of untermensch to the polls would object to a voter ID.

For those scoring at home.

Would the person with post #275 in the Godwin pool please step forward and claim your prize.
 unYOUsual
Joined: 8/11/2011
Msg: 213
New ID voter law?
Posted: 5/19/2012 4:19:07 PM
who cares about godwin's law..there are no good reasons not to have voter id laws other than alleged racism... hate to be the 1 to break it to you but there are more poor whites in america than any other group why wouldn't they be impacted by voter I d laws?
 trinity818
Joined: 9/1/2006
Msg: 214
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New ID voter law?
Posted: 5/19/2012 4:30:48 PM

any time I've ever voted in Canada I was required to show photo ID plus hand in my voter registration card that they'd sent me


Now I'm really confused. At least 2 Canadians have posted in this thread that a photo ID is required in Canada to vote. So why on earth are so many other Canadians posting about how outrageous it is that a similar law is being considered in the US?

I believe that as long as provisions are made to ensure that people can receive assistance in obtaining said identification, there is nothing wrong with requiring them to get one.
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 215
New ID voter law?
Posted: 5/19/2012 5:10:04 PM
who cares about godwin's law...

The people playing at home, it is a huge pool.

There are 3 pools: Off Topic, Site/Suggestions/Help, Science/Philosophy, Wild Card.(rotates monthly between all other forums)

For each thread started everyone puts a quarter in the pile and then everyone pics their blocks of numbers.

With the volume of threads and the number of people playing and then if you get a dry spell for a few weeks you can see pots well over $100.00.

The godwin must be identified with in 24hrs of posting, if not it will not be counted and pot will not be awarded.

The wild card pool is at $750ish right now.

You only need a pay pal account to play and min of $500 balance.

Though I must warn you, if you godwin yourself you owe everyone in the pool $100.00



there are no good reasons not to have voter id laws other than alleged racism... hate to be the 1 to break it to you but there are more poor whites in america than any other group why wouldn't they be impacted by voter I d laws?

Yes there are, as you do not have to discriminate by race, you can do it by political affiliation.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now I'm really confused. At least 2 Canadians have posted in this thread that a photo ID is required in Canada to vote. So why on earth are so many other Canadians posting about how outrageous it is that a similar law is being considered in the US?

You do not need photo ID to vote in Canada, you can use one if you so wish but there are other options.


#1) Show one original piece of identification with your photo, name and address. It must be issued by a government agency.

#2) Show two original pieces of authorized identification. Both pieces must have your name and one must also have your address. (these can be things like Utility Bill (telephone, TV, public utilities commission, hydro, gas or water)
Bank/Credit Card Statement, Vehicle Ownership/Insurance...)

#3) Take an oath and have an elector who knows you vouch for you (both of you will be required to make a sworn statement). This person must have authorized identification and their name must appear on the list of electors in the same polling division as you. This person can only vouch for one person and the person who is vouched for cannot vouch for another elector.

Examples: a neighbor, your roommate.





I believe that as long as provisions are made to ensure that people can receive assistance in obtaining said identification, there is nothing wrong with requiring them to get one.

but there are no provisions being made and in fact it is being made even harder as along with these laws, they are closing DMV locations near inter city areas where people could get id's, and for some reason many are doing thing like what Walker is doing in Wi and closing those DMV locations in Democratic areas.*

WI Governor Scott Walker to cut DMV centers in Democratic districts
Posted: July 23, 2011 | Author: michaelshatz | Filed under: Education, Politics, Tea Party, Wisconsin

The Wisconsin legislature is finalizing a bill to close ten Department of Motor Vehicle centers located in Democratic districts within the state. The money saved will be used to extend operating hours at DMV centers in Republican districts. These cuts come on the heels of new voter ID laws that require voters to present a state-issued photo identification card at the poll booths.

Read more at: http://occupy316.org/2011/07/23/wi-governor-scott-walker-to-cut-dmv-centers-in-democratic-districts/



If that is not seen as blatant voter fraud I guess I do not know what it.

Seriously, for a country that says they are all about freedoms, yet this is happening and no one is in jail?
 unYOUsual
Joined: 8/11/2011
Msg: 216
New ID voter law?
Posted: 5/19/2012 5:38:20 PM
um...check the dates ...go to Politifact....
 part deux
Joined: 11/11/2008
Msg: 217
view profile
History
New ID voter law?
Posted: 5/19/2012 6:38:10 PM
In Canada, we have photo health care cards, and they are free.Well, you have to pay the 6$ for the photo, but considering that all your medical bills are paid, I've never heard any complaints. Plus, photo ID isn't mandatory to vote, it's just easy, as most people have their health cards.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 218
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History
New ID voter law?
Posted: 5/23/2012 11:35:05 PM

Basic understanding of the branches of government and their relationships.


There are now quite a few million drones taking up space in the U.S. who couldn't care less. What they care about is how much of other people's money their vote will buy. And there is never a shortage of Democratic politicians to pander to them.
 NonamousDog
Joined: 4/20/2011
Msg: 219
New ID voter law?
Posted: 5/24/2012 9:38:03 AM
I'm not sure a photo ID requirement would make much difference, at least here in Illinois. The Chicago Machine could probably get photo ID's for their dead voters somehow......
 OutofControlMan
Joined: 12/22/2011
Msg: 220
New ID voter law?
Posted: 5/24/2012 9:58:45 AM

And there is never a shortage of Democratic politicians to pander to them.


of course, I have noticed this syndrome is ENTIRELY unique to Democrats; and there's NEVER been a Republican who panders with supporting industries with government (taxpayer) money to keep employment up in a region..including subsidies to keep surplus military bases, defense industries open, or agricultural subsidies to grow tobacco, NOT grow corn, etc., etc. how blind/biased can one be?
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 221
New ID voter law?
Posted: 6/5/2012 7:38:39 AM
in related news:

Voter ID advocate fails to name single instance of voter fraud
By Stephen C. Webster
Monday, June 4, 2012 13:09 EDT


Appearing on MSNBC on Monday morning, Heritage Foundation senior fellow Brian Darling tried to advocate on behalf of Republicans’ efforts in several to purge allegedly fraudulent voters from the rolls ahead of the 2012 presidential election.

However, under questioning Darling was unable to cite a single verified instance of actual voter fraud, leading host Chuck Todd to declare that he was “actually proving” Democrats’ contention that the Republican Party’s actions are unnecessary.

read more at: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/06/04/voter-id-advocate-fails-to-name-single-instance-of-voter-fraud/
 Brody_Quint
Joined: 5/8/2011
Msg: 222
New ID voter law?
Posted: 8/20/2012 9:03:38 AM
My mother doesn't drive. She doesn't have a driver's license or a photo ID. She uses her debit card for simple transactions. Should she be made to jump through hoops and buy a photo ID to vote?
It is certainly a poll tax.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 223
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History
New ID voter law?
Posted: 8/20/2012 9:58:49 AM

Should she be made to jump through hoops and buy a photo ID to vote?


Yes. It is not a poll tax. It is a procedural rule. Welcome to governance. Or do you also agree with taxing less for everything including income?
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 224
New ID voter law?
Posted: 8/20/2012 10:12:11 AM

Yes. It is not a poll tax. It is a procedural rule. Welcome to governance.


Well then...neither is the penalty under PPACA a tax...welcome to governance.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 225
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History
New ID voter law?
Posted: 8/20/2012 10:17:06 AM

It is certainly a poll tax.


Oh, is it now? Well, if so, it is unconstitutional--the 24th Amendment has prohibited poll taxes since 1964. It's odd, though, that our federal courts haven't realized what you think is so certain. Maybe you'd be happier if we just let anyone vote in any election who happens to feel like it. We all know any kind of discrimination is bad and icky, so let's be totally fair--eight-year-olds, foreign tourists, murderers, babbling schizophrenics--come one, come all! And since Mr. Obama's a Chicago politician, let's not leave out that other group of voters that has done so much to help elect so many other crooked Chicago politicians for so long--the dead.
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