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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Can culture advance without religion?      Home login  
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 lagoda
Joined: 11/20/2009
Msg: 51
Can culture advance without religion?Page 3 of 39    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39)
I'm not sure how religion has curtailed greed, if that's what you mean.
 lagoda
Joined: 11/20/2009
Msg: 52
Can culture advance without religion?
Posted: 3/22/2012 6:18:34 PM
The first benefit of religi0n is a sense of ought about correct thought and behaviour - morality. The particular understanding of what is right and wrong can be fluid within, and variable between cultures... yet the more common the population shares in its understanding and application of its morality, the more cohesive and organize the culture. It seems that natural selection favours a sense of altruism, at least by the masses, though it is questionable how altruistic the ruling members/classes may be.

snip/

Corruption is only bad if you get caught at it.


You've touched on something people around here don't talk about very much. Just how much influence in our societies does the ruling class have? In our governments? In our science? In business and economics? In religion, from eons ago?
 A_Gent
Joined: 8/18/2011
Msg: 53
Can culture advance without religion?
Posted: 3/22/2012 6:25:55 PM
Ya.... I pondered that. Religion does seem to keep the masses at bay.. yet empowers... or allows the ruling class to exploit the masses.
 lagoda
Joined: 11/20/2009
Msg: 54
Can culture advance without religion?
Posted: 3/22/2012 6:31:25 PM
snip
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 55
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History
Can culture advance without religion?
Posted: 3/22/2012 8:44:17 PM

To make sense of the question, and disarm the much of the emotional component, I think it best to approach it from an anthropological perspective, rather than any particular form of theology.

Religion, whether it was created by God, or created by humans, has to components essential to the advancement of a culture.

That is simply not true. That various 'cultures' have 'advanced' can't be correlated to their religious beliefs.



The first benefit of religi0n is a sense of ought about correct thought and behaviour - morality. The particular understanding of what is right and wrong can be fluid within, and variable between cultures... yet the more common the population shares in its understanding and application of its morality, the more cohesive and organize the culture. It seems that natural selection favours a sense of altruism, at least by the masses, though it is questionable how altruistic the ruling members/classes may be.

That's not true either.
"Correct thought and behaviour" within religious thought systems has included human sacrifice, enslavement of neighbouring populations, imperialism, extinction of other belief and cultural systems, war on an enormous scale that has persisted for centuries, subjugation of inferior classes within the culture, suspicion and bigotry, suppression of knowledge and educational advance, etc etc.
Yet you call this a "benefit"? And 'moral'? pfft.

It could be argued, rightly in my opinion, that religion has been a drag on human advancement and we'd all have been better off without it. Religion is just an instrument of control that uses superstition to inspire fear - then sells itself as the solution. One hopes we soon will be free of it.



The second benefit of religion is a sense of the hereafter, and that what one does on this side of eternity, can influence one's rewards/punishments on the other.

To this point... That religion inculcates a cohesive sense of altruism and a sense that right living (morality) will have eternal reward supports the evolution of a culture.

Once again, this is just an assumption based on what appears to be bias.

Island, or village, cultures often cooperated (and presumably still do) in community activities such as harvests (whether from the sea or the fields) that will benefit the whole community. The collective altruism doesn't depend on any sense of the "hereafter", but is simply common sense operating in the rightnow.

Besides which, this allegedly moral altruism inspired by heavenly reward is a myth. Religions use 'altruism' as an outreach method to proselytize and seek converts. They formerly used swords.
And some still do.


The question remains, can a culture evolve without religion?
Marxist countries that try to do away with religion fail. And I am concerned that the west, as it becomes increasing secular, may be doomed as well.

Again you are making an assumptive leap and arriving at an unsubstantiated conclusion.
You haven't, nor has anyone for that matter, established that 'Marxism' failed because of its antipathy to religion.
You just assume there's a correlation between irreligion and cultural failure and use this to forecast the decline of the increasingly secular west.
Meanwhile... you ignore the countless non-marxist religious cultures that have also failed since the beginning of human civilisation.



But without a religious base, altruism and morality lose the eternal reward in the hereafter, and become more pragmatic. I will cooperate or work to satisfy your needs, only so far as I can gain from it now. And if I can get away with it.. as in act in purely self interested way even though it is at the blatant expense of the culture ... why should I even care about you at all?

You haven't established that "a religious base" and its attendant afterlife promises is necessarily required for the beneficial expression of "altruism and morality", nor that in the absence of such holy fairytales altruism necessarily becomes self-interested and/or mean spirited 'pragmatism'.

All of which has led you to a highly suspect conclusion, being your question "why should I even care about you at all?" (in the absence of alleged afterlife benefit/punishment).

Well... gee whizz... maybe we should care about other people, and the planet, and society, and culture, because it's the right thing to do, because we're all in this together, because we all benefit now, because our descendants will benefit if we leave them a stable society and a healthy planet?

'Gods' are not only silly, they're entirely redundant.

This whole debate seems very insular and parochial to me, there's little evidence of awareness of history, or of cultures other than western culture having been considered in the question.
There's no real exploration of what 'culture' actually is, or what the meaning of 'beneficial' is within the context of culture. Hence, the question of 'cultural advance' is just a murky concept that some people seem to think can be answered fully by 'religion'. [/vomit]
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 56
Can culture advance without religion?
Posted: 3/23/2012 6:41:13 AM

For the sake of consideration... there are no inalienable human rights... humans, for the very sake of being human, have no more rights than an earth worm.

What we call human rights are in fact Civil Rights.

Rights that we, as participants in collective organizations, grant by consensus +/or legislation to each other.

Without such collective organizations, and their moral foundations, based on religious idealism, what we call human rights would be non-existent.


I agree that humans have no inalienable human rights. We are more important than earthworms only because we are smarter than earthworms and can assert our dominion.

But we WOULD have human rights without the existence of religion. In fact, religion has done as much to tear down human rights as it has supported them.

Human rights grew (laws, ethics, common courtesy) grew out of the need to protect the species and let it advance. Our basic role (the meaning of life) is to procreate and stay alive until our offspring is old enough to procreate. We are a species that cares for its young--like dogs, cats, and other animals--but it takes longer for our children to mature and be able to care for themselves. We NEED to love not only them in order to have the desire to take care of them, but we will be more successful if we have a mate (male or female) and even more successful if we have the support of an extended family and society.

It makes sense to get along with others, but it isn't easy. It order for family groups, tribes, and clans to survive, rules needed to be established. When humans settled down into cities, even more rules were needed to keep harmony within the community, and there needed to be ways to enforce the rules.

And note: theses rules did not always extend to outsiders because a unit had no desire to help "them" perpetuate their genes. As the world got more populated, though, we needed to get along with a wider range of the "stranger." Now, the need is global because if we can't get along, the entire species could become extinct.

I have said this many times in these forums, but humans are endowed with empathy: it is not god-given, but an inherent trait that developed/evolved in order to help us maintain harmony and care for other humans.

Human rights grew out of those early rules; Hammurabi codified them, as did other leaders/cultures. The rules were commandeered by religion and claimed to be the province of a deity--or several deities.

Religion and religious beliefs have been used to manipulate other humans since religion began. In a theocracy, there are less human "rights" than in other forms of governing because the leaders have power given to them directly from god.
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 57
Can culture advance without religion?
Posted: 3/23/2012 6:52:41 AM

Me first.. screw the rest of you.


When the Israelites made their mythic escape from Egypt, they went into the land of Canaan and committed wholesale genocide. It doesn't matter if the tales are true or not because the acts were sanctioned by Yahweh.

My religion, my culture, my people fist: screw the rest of you. We left Canaan and went into Egypt and you stayed. Too bad! God gave us this land and gave us permission to kill all of you.

Sucks to be Canaanites, eh?

When the angels of the lord went into Sodom, the crowd wanted them to be sent out. Instead, Lot offered his virgin daughters to the ravening mob.

I guess this is a good example of putting others first (even though the daughters weren't consulted on whether they wanted to be given to a frenzied mob).

When Abram and Sarai went into Egypt, Abram told her:
'I know that you are a woman beautiful to behold; and when the Egyptians see you, they will say, "This is his wife"; then they will kill me, but they will let you live. Say you are my sister, that it may go well with me because of you, and that my life may be spared on your account.'


Well, Abram (later to be Abraham) sure had his wife's best interest at heart! Oh, wait, he was trying to save his OWN skin by telling her to lie about their marriage!

Me, first.
 A_Gent
Joined: 8/18/2011
Msg: 58
Can culture advance without religion?
Posted: 3/23/2012 8:30:00 AM
Re: Msg 69

Ya.. the comment about human rights vs. civil rights did suppose that such rights emerged or only would emerge from a religious basis.

Humans inherently organize themselves into mutually supporting groups (tribes) that grant in-group privileges to each other at the expense of outsiders.

Nations could be understood as super-tribes.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 59
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History
Can culture advance without religion?
Posted: 3/23/2012 8:36:21 AM
A_gent

What about the UN? It is exactly what your topic is about. It is establishment of a non religious world government authority.

Do you think culture can advance WITH them leading it. They exist. What anyone thinks they should change doesn't matter much because they are real and grew out of this entire concept and to spread it across the world.

It isn't an experiment as far as I can tell. Do you see any other possible way to deal with the problems of terrorism, genocide, and all of those bad things people keep attributing to religion?

Do you see in any way the future NOT having a world Government? I really don’t and that doesn't mean I like it.
 A_Gent
Joined: 8/18/2011
Msg: 60
Can culture advance without religion?
Posted: 3/23/2012 9:00:51 AM
For consideration:

The basic tenants of the great religions are mostly how to live in peace with creation, each other, and within ourselves... and generally promote peaceful coexistence with each other.

While aggression and exploitation may done in the name of religion... it is erroneous to conclude that they are religious wars per se .... that is spin doctoring at its most powerful level ... they are for the purpose of gaining political and economic power.... greed.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 61
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Can culture advance without religion?
Posted: 3/23/2012 9:27:06 AM

While aggression and exploitation may done in the name of religion... it is erroneous to conclude that they are religious wars per se .... that is spin doctoring at its most powerful level ... they are for the purpose of gaining political and economic power.... greed.


Need to be more specific about what you mean by 'the great religions'. If you mean the three, Judaism, Christianity, Islam then we should clarify. If you include Hinduism in then perspectives change.

If you extend it even more and include 'everything' I think your question starts becoming nearly impossible to answer unless we have someone that really really knows the origins, tenants, and evolution of all of them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_religious_groups

For the most part religions promote tribalisim and domination and spreading... Peace only counts for 'brothers'
 A_Gent
Joined: 8/18/2011
Msg: 62
Can culture advance without religion?
Posted: 3/23/2012 9:50:24 AM
Aries...

The problem with the UN as it is, is the self interest of member nations that undermine what may be best for the global community.

I see at this point two ways non-religious cultures can advance.

One is to have an ideology that is strong enough to overcome personal greed.. perhaps secular humanism could do this if economic policies became more egalitarian.

The other would be totalitarian culture that is ruthless in its own promotion ... as what may have occurred had the Nazis prevailed. Or as described by Orwell in 1984.

As I submitted in another post... terrorism, genocide, and all such nasty things may be done in the name of religion... but are politically/economically motivated.

Can't we all just get along?
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 63
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History
Can culture advance without religion?
Posted: 3/23/2012 10:17:32 AM
terrorism, genocide, and all such nasty things may be done in the name of religion... but are politically/economically motivated


But that is hardly a true statement. You can link politics and economics but the primary motivation is culture clashing religious beliefs. Not beliefs in god but the hardcore not truth but the truth of my true religion truth. Even Hitler was able to pull off what he did by exploiting that vulnerability in faith.

The point you had about secular humanism and more egalitarian economics is the UN. It is already in existence and it is a global attempt and it is to overcome exactly the problem that the only logical government is totalitarian. The problem is how to not be totalitarian when you tell everyone to get along.

If the UN were a federation of nations and had no authority directly over nations other than those authorities spelled out by law you would have the American style of government at a global scale. As America started the Federal Govt was weak as designed and over time it has grown in power. I see the UN doing this exact thing. A basic set of human rights rules first, subscribe nations, over time by law, asserting authority. What I do not see is any built in mechanisms to prevent the UN from becoming totalitarian. There are no checks or balances when that eventual time comes. We call them Peace Keepers.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 64
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History
Can culture advance without religion?
Posted: 3/23/2012 11:36:01 AM

christianity has only crept by in our western cultures because it has been smart enough to stay slightly to the side of mainstream life. had it done otherwise, i suspect it would have already been discarded.


Do you ever wonder about statements like that. Why it makes sense that "Christianity has... anything... The same can be said for political beliefs. The ideas spread and become their own things.

I swear when we talk about these things it sounds like we are talking about an entity that invades human meat puppets and compels them toward replication to other host puppets. Is that a perception problem or still the unknown mechanics of how these things work?

I know you and I have a very large disagreement in that I attribute atheism to a form of religious belief. But I do. I also feel the same about politics. I think it is all related and once reality is accepted for the world view that is chosen these things take on all of the properties of beliefs and all of the sudden turn in to 'my truth is greater than your truth' and again... the ideas become their own entities that have a goal of replicating. The science aspect permits for those truths to be modifiable and less likely to cause murder if you don’t believe though… Unless of course a biological marker is found that can reliably predict that a fetus will grow up into an evil or dangerous person and it becomes permissible to ‘fix’ the problem.

I know that I can't be immune. In fact, since listening to you and reading Sam Harris book my ideology against Islam has greatly increased as well as me leaning toward the idea that the only real defense we have against it at this early stage is embracing the currently established symbiotic relationship with evolved Christianity and in effect saying, "there is no room at the inn."

As you state... Christianity has been smart enough to stay slightly to the side of mainstream life. Isn't that because Christianity is western culture to a very large degree and it is made up of all the people around you that are trying to work it all out and get along? But that would be making it not a 'thing' and just a bunch of people that have a history.
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 65
Can culture advance without religion?
Posted: 3/23/2012 1:19:24 PM

The basic tenants of the great religions are mostly how to live in peace with creation, each other, and within ourselves... and generally promote peaceful coexistence with each other.


I don't think that you replied to Aries' question about the "great" religions. If you mean Christianity (but NOT the Hebrew Scriptures, aka The Old Testament) and Buddhism, then yes, it is about peaceful coexistence with others.

As I point out in another post, the Jews were given permission to commit genocide. If one were to protest that this decision was human made and not god made, then it opens up the validity of everything stated in the Hebrew Scriptures. It was peaceful co-existence for the Hebrews, but not their enemies.

I don't know enough about the Koran to understand what it truly promotes.

I also disagree about living in peace with ourselves. Religion tries to stamp out basic human emotions and traits--we are to be monogamous (except for men in some cases), we aren't supposed to be angry (we only suppress it, which can make it worse), we aren't supposed to envy, be lustful, etc. We are not taught how to bring these issues into the open and deal with them before they become problems, but to suppress and deny them. Or, as in the case of polygamous situations, straight men can indulge their natural tendencies but women and gays cannot.

Since these aspects are specifically addressed in the users' guides for religion (i.e. The Bible), then how can they be separated from the religions?
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 66
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Can culture advance without religion?
Posted: 3/23/2012 5:06:06 PM

The basic tenants of the great religions are mostly how to live in peace with creation, each other, and within ourselves... and generally promote peaceful coexistence with each other.

All of the above applies to political systems such as Marxism or Communism.


While aggression and exploitation may done in the name of religion... it is erroneous to conclude that they are religious wars per se .... that is spin doctoring at its most powerful level ... they are for the purpose of gaining political and economic power.... greed.

Yet, as you illustrate here, the reasons Marxism and Communism are often condemned serve as excuses for religion.

How does that work?
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 67
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History
Can culture advance without religion?
Posted: 3/23/2012 6:10:34 PM

Really? I guess you forgot about the step of communism that is the revolution of the proletariat................ I guess a little reading is in order.

Minor detail, really is..............

You have missed the point and contributed an irrelevancy.
Which isn't a minor detail. It really isn't...........
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 68
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History
Can culture advance without religion?
Posted: 3/23/2012 6:41:23 PM

Even though I have shown you this many times before, you seem to keep forgetting. Seeing how it is very important, I will copy/paste it yet again......... Do try to remember at least some of it this time...............

As I said, an analysis of Marxism is an irrelevancy. Especially when one considers that you appear to think your flawed and shallow interpretation is the definitive one from which all discussion must start by default.

You give no definitions for 'class' or 'struggle' and don't appear to comprehend the breadth of meaning either or both of those words might hold, either theoretically or in practical terms.

Besides which, the point I made about the same reasons being used to condemn Marxism as are used to excuse religion is not negated by you irrelevant quibbling over terms, since similar ones are used in both philosophical systems to both achieve and describe necessarily differing outcomes.

Use your head - Marx could never have sold his philosophy if all he was promising was endless struggle and conflict relieved only by an occasional bloodbath.
The aim was peaceful co-existence on equitable terms. Duh!


YOU brought up the subject, I commented on it, if you didn't want to discuss it, you shouldn't have brought it up, and especially shouldn't made an incorrect statement about it...........................

I didn't bring it up, the OP did in post #53. You actually responded in to his comment about 'Marxism' in post #54.
I didn't make any comment about 'Marxism' until post# 68.
Are you paying attention?
Because paying attention to conversations you're pretending to 'participate' in is not a minor detail, it really isn't......
 Gwendolyn2010
Joined: 1/22/2006
Msg: 69
Can culture advance without religion?
Posted: 3/24/2012 7:12:30 AM

of course christianity was, like marxism, the poor man's 'religion'.

the great advantage christianity had as a selling point was that you didnt have to sacrifice an unaffordably expensive bull on anyones' altar - on the contrary, the poorer you were, the closer to god (gerry falwell - get through that needle's eye)... so it played well, brilliantly well to the masses - like marxism.


Spot on--Christianity took root because it allowed poor people, slaves, and women to join its ranks and have the possibility of salvation. When it was adopted by Constantine (and others) it became a weapon.

One of the reasons why Christianity overtook the Mithraic religion (from which Christianity took various aspects) was, in part, because Mithraism did not allow slaves or women into the fold.
 A_Gent
Joined: 8/18/2011
Msg: 70
Can culture advance without religion?
Posted: 3/24/2012 1:20:03 PM
What will it take for an increasing secular western culture to continue to evolve?

At this time, greed and abdication of personal responsibility rule.
 earthlingsRevenge
Joined: 10/30/2009
Msg: 71
Can culture advance without religion?
Posted: 3/24/2012 3:31:28 PM

Can western culture advance without religion?

In the light of current situation, the question should be
Can western culture advance without wars?

Anyway, back to the original question. From history it appears that without religion humanity would have been in big trouble for its survival. As an atheist I must accept the fact religion played a big role in survival of human race in its early stage. But now that role of religion is over. Time of religion came and gone. I divide survival of human race in three somewhat distinct eras.
1) Religion : from BC to year 1000
2) Compassion 1200/1500 to late 1800
3) Logic from late 1800 to current.

Advancement of science gave birth to Logic. We now understand the surreal nature of our existence in the universe. Right or Wrong now comes from logic, no morality or religion required.
 lyingcheat
Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 72
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History
Can culture advance without religion?
Posted: 3/24/2012 11:11:08 PM

You did reveal as to what you feel marxism really is.........


Use your head - Marx could never have sold his philosophy if all he was promising was endless struggle and conflict relieved only by an occasional bloodbath.
The aim was peaceful co-existence on equitable terms. Duh!



Duh is right............ Peaceful co-existence on equitable terms................ I guess that must be the new buzz-term for totalitarian control from a central command structure. The ONLY reason so many weak minded have fallen for marxism is because they look only at just how nice it will be when all humans have EXACTLY the same outcome, they all are equal, they all share everything............
(my emphasis)
Despite that you re-word, and reiterate, the point I was actually making you still don't seem to appreciate it. Probably because you're focused on the irrelevant (to this thread) side issue.

Substitute 'religion' for 'marxism' in the part of your post I've emphasised and maybe insight will dawn. Maybe not.

Note the original point was that 'religion' is excused the negative effects that flow from it, such as oppression, exclusion, war, divisive attitudes etc etc, because these are seen as artifacts of the inadequacies of the practitioners, and not due to the religious philosophy itself.

Yet these same negative outcomes, in the case of marxism, are used to blame the philosophy. The practitioners meanwhile being (partly) excused because they were 'duped' by the corrupt belief system.

This ^^^ is inconsistent and exposes the bias of those doing either the excusing or the condemning.

Speaking of bias, as I pointed out above, your intentionally pejorative description of marxism (totalitarian control from a central command structure that dupes weak minded people into believing there will be positive outcomes for them at some point in the future) can be applied almost without modification to 'religion'.

Yet you don't seem aware of this, despite that I've pointed it out three times now...

I actually agree with you that rigid adherence to philosophical systems that ignore too many realities tends to have negative outcomes - I'm just pointing out that there's no reason 'religion' should get a free pass.

Which actually relates to the thread topic - unlike your one-eyed interpretations and clearly biased summaries on the topic of 'what a terrible thing marxism/communism is'.
 A_Gent
Joined: 8/18/2011
Msg: 73
Can culture advance without religion?
Posted: 3/28/2012 2:46:44 PM
It seems, for a culture to advance, it requires several interrelated qualities.

A common identity, and a sense of altruism where the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one...where selflessness is perceived as a virtue.

Religion can provide these qualities, and it seems that many cultures have advanced piggybacking on the virtues of religion.

In many cases, religious and ideological virtues have been hijacked by political/national/economic goals. Such moral tenants are often reserved for in-groups and leading classes but are justified in excluding out-groups or the disadvantaged. An example would be, "All men are created equal," ... unless you're a black slave. Or, "To love others as you do yourself," ... then slaughter people who refuse to do your bidding (see the movie Gandhi).

I think secular humanism can supplant religion as a foundation for a culture to advance, but only if selflessness becomes the prime virtue and selfishness is strongly admonished. Western culture is a long way from this egalitarian ideology.

However, it seems a culture can advance based on totalitarian ideology.. as described so well by Orwell in 1984. Eliminate the intellectuals who oppose, subjugate the middle class as long as they comply, and brainwash those who aren't used to thinking for themselves. And rule with an iron fist. Lenin/Stalin, the Khmer Rouge, and the Nazis came close.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 74
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Can culture advance without religion?
Posted: 3/28/2012 3:15:15 PM
Religion can provide these qualities, and it seems that many cultures have advanced piggybacking on the virtues of religion.


The end result of this that exposes the problem and why all the atheists want to beat the brains out of religious people are simple...

Which religion, which god, based on what evidence, and which parts of which holy books are these things to come from...

When you actually refer back to the official books for reference you are left.... wondering wtf you just read and wondering where exactly you picked up those things you thought were Christian values... You know... the sanitized Sunday school versions... don't steal, don't lie, and don’t frock your neighbor.

All of this stuff has been passing for generations and has been watered down so much that we don't look at the source anymore because it just confuses things.

So, I do not know how it could be at all possible to base any modern civilization on religious foundations. You would have to invent a new religion.

Unfortunately religion caused this itself and has left us with virtually nothing to base things from. Science and biology can only give you a biological mechanism that may or may not support any sense of ethics or morality and it can't ever put those mechanisms into rules without asserting a world view.


OK, I will tell you........... I can walk out of a church if I so desire............ unlike the people who live in Cuba, the former Soviet Union, and all of the satellite communist countries that were behind the iron curtain.....................

And this is the problem with placing ethics and morality in the control of governments... You can't choose an alternative.
 A_Gent
Joined: 8/18/2011
Msg: 75
Can culture advance without religion?
Posted: 3/28/2012 3:38:27 PM
"The end result of this that exposes the problem and why all the atheists want to beat the brains out of religious people are simple..."

And entirely different thread, but I think the reason why many atheists are so emotionally opposed to religion, it that it suggests they may have to be accountable for themselves.
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