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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Nothing "unphysical" exists      Home login  
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 Balsamica
Joined: 2/24/2012
Msg: 59
Nothing unphysical existsPage 4 of 5    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)
"""so.... space itself is not empty (true) but is it possible to fill space with something non physical? By definition, energy is the ability or potential to do work. the fuel required for existence, force, basicaly ANYTHING to happen. How can something void of energy, thus the ability to create force or affect anything, CAUSE a physical affect? Perhaps you think I mean "solid". LIGHT is physical. a magnetic field is physical. all energy is physical , thus the field of "physics". THAT's what I mean by physical.""

Well, if by non-physical you mean "nothing", are you asking if nothingness can exist? I guess I am not understanding the question.
 earthlingsRevenge
Joined: 10/30/2009
Msg: 60
Thoughts exist
Posted: 5/7/2012 9:48:33 PM
Thought is not 'unphysical'.

Thoughts exist as a map on neurons in our brains. Without this map you would not be thinking anything.

Just as everything displayed on a computer screen has a map on its RAM (memory).
 musicfellow38
Joined: 2/17/2011
Msg: 61
Thoughts exist
Posted: 5/8/2012 10:17:52 AM
Here here earthlingsRevenge.

I feel sympathy for people just joining the conversation because so much gets discussed with these long threads that by the time you join in, without reading the whole thread, a point could have been made and addressed several times already, going around in circles. Not a critism, thus why I sympathise, and sometimes either skip a thread for being too long or skip to the end to see where the conversation is currently at.
 earthlingsRevenge
Joined: 10/30/2009
Msg: 62
Thoughts exist
Posted: 5/10/2012 6:37:58 AM
In macroscopic world any non-physical experience has a PHYSICAL basis.
Without that physical entity, the non-physical perception can not exist. But it is not the other way around.
In microscopic world , it is totally a different story, we don't even know what an electron looks like.

Consciousness is a totally different beast. But it also a physical base. Need some real works on it.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 63
Does mathematics physically exist?
Posted: 5/10/2012 9:31:37 AM
Mathematics either exists or it does not. Since we have named it "mathematics" and work with it daily, often using it to describe the physical world, I doubt it could be said mathematics doesn't exist, so I think it fair to say mathematics exists. The question remains as to whether or not mathematics is "physical".

Since your premise is that nothing unphysical exists, I think we can rule out mathematics' existence in an unphysical Platonic world of ideal forms. By the OP's premise, it must then physically exist. If mathematics didn't pre-exist the mathematician, then obviously the mathematician created mathematics. Has he created something physical, or has he created something unphysical?

Frankly, I find it hard to believe that mathematics has a physical existence. Could the OP explain how this could be, or would he concede that some unphysical things do exist?
 Stray__Cat
Joined: 7/12/2006
Msg: 64
Thoughts exist
Posted: 5/10/2012 9:09:41 PM
Well if you are gonna insist on discussing only the mundane physical(or unphysical)
I wonder if the insides of black holes would count?
(Or did someone already mention those?)

They exist.
But are not physical inside.
or rather beyond the physical.
So they are perhaps something unphysical that exists.
 NO_NO
Joined: 4/12/2008
Msg: 65
Nothing unphysical exists
Posted: 5/11/2012 9:33:03 AM

1. "Freedom" starts with an idea. one that happens in the brain, with measurable activity, changes in heat and electrical activity, with information physically sored in our brains. I consider all activities and events that occur within the brain to be physical in nature.


I didn't read the rest, I stop here. Let me ask you this, did freedom did not exist until the moment one thought of it?

I don't really believe in the word freedom, but since you seem too,I wonder if you thought of such, and what your ideas were once you thought about it.
 earthlingsRevenge
Joined: 10/30/2009
Msg: 66
Nothing unphysical exists
Posted: 5/11/2012 1:08:04 PM

Mathematics either exists or it does not. Since we have named it "mathematics" and work with it daily, often using it to describe the physical world, I doubt it could be said mathematics doesn't exist, so I think it fair to say mathematics exists. The question remains as to whether or not mathematics is "physical".


Dukky, you are so close. This is the most formidable argument so far I have seen against physical world. But it also fails the test of pure non-physical entity. There are 2 arguments.

1) It brings back the same old question, we debated here on pof long ago, "Do numbers exist?"
The best answer is "No, numbers do not exist until you use it", more precisely, "until you use it on a physical object".
We can make the same argument against Math. You must use Math on a Physical substance only then Math has a meaning.

You want take the road from Boston straight to Rio de Janeiro. The road doesn't exist, but there are all ingredients (Math) ready to build the road, but it doesn't exist. Existence of ingredients doesn't make the existence of the road.

2) You may argue, existence of Math is like existence of Laws of Nature. Not totally true. Math is man-made. They are not laws of nature, they are man's approximation to laws of nature. You may also say (I sound like the Talking Head song), laws of nature are non-physical. Again, laws of nature apply only to physical objects, without objects there are no laws.

I have an open mind, I can change mind anytime when someone points it out.
 musicfellow38
Joined: 2/17/2011
Msg: 67
Nothing unphysical exists
Posted: 5/11/2012 3:57:23 PM
EarthlingsRevenge....

I'll say it again. you are my advocate and i barely have to say a word as long as you keep posting. Granted, I have to admit, there are a few other posts out there that also invoke silence from me because i dont think my point would be understood as our perceptions of reality are obviously too different to expect each other to understand each other.

Otherwise, many good points out there that I've long since battled with myself.

MATHMATICS:

it's a system to interpret the physical world. Dealing with measurable physical units... that's the only thing numbers are ever assigned to, even when hypothetical/theoretical equations are in play (x+y=z).

many use music as an example. "Surely a song is not physical". Well, by definition, if you can hear it, we KNOW it's physical... but then the "pattern" is what some people say is non physical. If it's written on paper, it's written on paper, physical. if it;s in our heads as a memory, physical. If it's not recorded anywhere in any form, despite having once existed, it no longer exists.

With music, math, methods, philosophies, etc., it's easy to label them as a thing all themselves without definginn out louod what they are. are martial arts physical? It;'s not the body, the arms, the kick but the METHOD and pattern to the whole thing. But take away the books, the ideas in your head, any recoding descibing the method or the physical activity demopnstrating it and the martial art will stop existing.
 musicfellow38
Joined: 2/17/2011
Msg: 68
Nothing unphysical exists
Posted: 5/11/2012 4:00:50 PM
@earthlingsrevenge


I'll say it again. you are my advocate and i barely have to say a word as long as you keep posting. Granted, I have to admit, there are a few other posts out there that also invoke silence from me because i dont think my point would be understood as our perceptions of reality are obviously too different to expect each other to understand each other.


Sorry if this implied I was talking about YOU. The line was but the rest is refering to a small number of OTHERS. I totally get what you are saying. same as me. Thus, no need to comment much. I'm sitting back and letting you address stuff because we would say the same thing. Sorry for the confusion.
 A_Gent
Joined: 8/18/2011
Msg: 69
Nothing unphysical exists
Posted: 5/11/2012 7:51:24 PM
Does beauty exist?
 A_Gent
Joined: 8/18/2011
Msg: 70
Nothing unphysical exists
Posted: 5/11/2012 7:51:50 PM
Does wonder exist?
 A_Gent
Joined: 8/18/2011
Msg: 71
Nothing unphysical exists
Posted: 5/11/2012 7:52:18 PM
Does curiosity exist?
 A_Gent
Joined: 8/18/2011
Msg: 72
Nothing unphysical exists
Posted: 5/11/2012 7:53:09 PM
Does evil, virtue, morality, honour, knowledge, wisdom.... exist?
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 73
Nothing unphysical exists
Posted: 5/12/2012 1:19:08 AM
@earthlingsRevenge

it also fails the test of pure non-physical entity.


That statement implies that entities must exist that are non-physical (else there could be nothing to test against). This would refute the argument that there are no non-physical entities. Asserting that something fails an undefined test does not constitute a proof, only another assertion. The original assertion was that nothing unphysical exists. If the aforementioned test is intended to prove that original assertion, it should be in the form of a proof, not more unsubstantiated or fallacious assertions such as:

"numbers do not exist until you use it" (which implies that numbers are created and EXIST within some temporal time frame)

"You must use Math on a Physical substance" (Why? Aren't you begging the question by presuming there is nothing else to use it on? One can use math on math, so if your statement is true, then math is a physical substance.)

"The road doesn't exist, but there are all ingredients (Math) ready to build the road, but it doesn't exist.Existence of ingredients doesn't make the existence of the road."

You have just asserted that math exists and simultaneously does not exist. (a contradiction)

With respect to #2, I make no such argument. (looks like a straw man to me)

@musicfellow

it's a system to interpret the physical world.

That's physics. While math may be used by the physicist to interpret the physical world, it is much more than that. It's probably best to call it a language describing a system of formal reasoning.


Dealing with measurable physical units... that's the only thing numbers are ever assigned to

False, unless you can show (for instance) that all sets are measurable physical units.


take away the books, the ideas in your head, any recoding descibing the method or the physical activity demopnstrating it and the martial art will stop existing

That is yet another unsubstantiated assertion.

I remind you guys that the burden of proof falls on those making an assertion. I have yet to see anything approaching proof, or even a strong argument.
 musicfellow38
Joined: 2/17/2011
Msg: 74
Nothing unphysical exists
Posted: 5/12/2012 10:58:28 AM
@A_GENT
yes, yes, yes, no, yes, depends on your definition, yes, yes and yes. AND every one that exists are words describing something physical, a physical process, event, arrangement, etc. ;)
 earthlingsRevenge
Joined: 10/30/2009
Msg: 75
Nothing unphysical exists
Posted: 5/13/2012 8:46:06 AM
This thread is going on and on with no end in sight.
Here is my last post and I would like to present my thought on the subject and nothing else.

Our first reaction to this thread is "It can't be true, everything is physical???" But when you take one non-physical at a time, and trace backward, you'd find something physical attached to it.

a) I still think MSG #5 (Lynn) is right, even if there is anything non-physical our sensory systems prevent us
from receiving the signals.

b) In macroscopic world, everything is physical and measureable. All our non-physical experiences must have physical sources. . MATH falls in the same group as Laws of Nature.

c) In microscopic world, until we know more, everything seem to be non-physical.

Like many I also enjoyed others comments.
 Balsamica
Joined: 2/24/2012
Msg: 76
Nothing unphysical exists
Posted: 5/13/2012 3:27:13 PM
"""a) I still think MSG #5 (Lynn) is right, even if there is anything non-physical our sensory systems prevent us
from receiving the signals.""

Maybe true, maybe not.

b) In macroscopic world, everything is physical and measureable. All our non-physical experiences must have physical sources. . MATH falls in the same group as Laws of Nature.

This has a bunch of different statements in one, hard to comment.

c) In microscopic world, until we know more, everything seem to be non-physical.

False. They're just little physical critters.

"""The argument being put forward seems to be of the form: your perception is generated by things with physical properties, therefore nothing non-physical exists. It's not a valid argument.""

OK, there may be things beyond our perception that are non-physical ........can you suggest some?
 madchemist4you
Joined: 2/19/2012
Msg: 77
Nothing unphysical exists
Posted: 5/13/2012 5:03:03 PM
Time does not exist in any physical sense just as length and width do not exist. Time is not an object or thing but a concept. There are no time particals, rays or waves.

There is some small dissagreement on whether photons have mass, though. I believe that it must have some mass even if imperceptable for Einstien's relativity equation to apply.
 madchemist4you
Joined: 2/19/2012
Msg: 78
Nothing unphysical exists
Posted: 5/13/2012 5:07:06 PM
According to the laws of physics, everything that exists does so according to such physical laws. If it lies outside the existing laws then it is purely theoretical and cannot at this time be proven to exist.
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 79
view profile
History
Nothing unphysical exists
Posted: 5/18/2012 10:27:56 PM
'''According to the laws of physics, everything that exists does so according to such physical laws. If it lies outside the existing laws then it is purely theoretical and cannot at this time be proven to exist'''

but whats being provable got to do with whether things exist or not?
 musicfellow38
Joined: 2/17/2011
Msg: 80
Nothing unphysical exists
Posted: 5/19/2012 9:52:23 AM

'''According to the laws of physics, everything that exists does so according to such physical laws. If it lies outside the existing laws then it is purely theoretical and cannot at this time be proven to exist'''

but whats being provable got to do with whether things exist or not?


This actually gets to the heart of my main point. Except I'll ammend my question a bit. Since we can't prove a negative, I'll take the same position as a proper skeptic would take.

instead of saying "nothing unphysical exists", I'll ask "is there any reason to believe anything unphysical exists?"

Thus allowing for new information to be entertained later if new evidence is discovered. Presently, is there any reason to believe in any notion of an unphysical existence of anything? Is it even a thing?

Thus, the ultimate question, how do we define existence or non existence if it's not the physical properties of such a thing? We all believe some things more than others. We're more likely to believe in the sun than we are superman... at least I hope... otherwise, our opinions probably aren't much good for solving problems or answering other questions. With that in mind, are we less likely to believe in superman than we are that something with no physical qualities at all (which one would expect from something that doesn't exist) exists? If this thread title was "superman does not exist", would there be as much debate as there is here? why? what is the criteria for existing?
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 81
Nothing unphysical exists
Posted: 5/19/2012 3:36:04 PM

is there any reason to believe anything unphysical exists?


Yes. Unless we are to agree that even "nothing" (non-existence if you prefer) is a physical thing, or that there is no such thing as "nothing" (in which case we have to either ask what lies outside of "existence" (all that exists), or entertain the thought that the universe/multiverse is infinite and everywhere infinitely dense with a physicality that has no "gaps" of "nothingness").

Either "nothing" is a physical thing, or it isn't…What do you contend that it is?
 musicfellow38
Joined: 2/17/2011
Msg: 82
Nothing unphysical exists
Posted: 5/20/2012 11:07:17 AM

"is there any reason to believe anything unphysical exists? "


Yes. Unless we are to agree that even "nothing" (non-existence if you prefer) is a physical thing, or that there is no such thing as "nothing" (in which case we have to either ask what lies outside of "existence" (all that exists), or entertain the thought that the universe/multiverse is infinite and everywhere infinitely dense with a physicality that has no "gaps" of "nothingness").

Either "nothing" is a physical thing, or it isn't…What do you contend that it is?


JustDukky,

I think you steered the conversation exactly in the right direction. The question of existence/non existence (nothingness) is what must be asked and clarified before we can reach any conclusions to this thread.

So to answer your question, with my view of course,

"Nothing" does NOT exist unless it's used figuratively... in the same wasy that we can say "a glass is empty". It's a false statement because we're only refering to the lack of liquid or any other expected substance the glass was designed to hold. It's not actually empty, as we know. Just filled with something different. something equally physical but probably less dense like air.

Philosophically, lets look at this statement: "Nothing exists". surely that isn't true. i think the idea of actual nothingness gets confused with the figurative one like the empty glass scenario. thus, we assume "nothing" is empty space. However, it's my view that "nothing" is something that is NOT there, measurable in any way, including volume, space it occupies, etc. If something occupies space, has volume, etc, it;s not nothing.

To ask the question "what lies outside of existence" is to completely disregard the meaning of the word exisitence. There IS NO OUTSIDE, unless you're simply refering to anything that does not exist. it's like the idea of life after death. If life continues, then death did not occur. Or at least STAY dead. Can't be dead and have a quality of life at the same time. unless you're refering to spirits and heaven and so on. There's a reason I dont believe those either but one thing's for sure. It's not life as we know it. doesn't involve our bodies.. thus, a different term shoudl be used. Not life.

This is the point of my entire thread. I dont believe "nothing" exists. thus, I dont think the big bang was something coming from nothing. Like everything else that exists, it was something coming from something else different. Something changed. Like an atom into an atomic explosion.

We wont be able to FIND "nothing". it's not there. if we found anything, what we find is a physical quality. takes up space, has energy, or force potential, or mass, or something. Anything that do not have any physicality will not be found in the universe because it's what DOES have physical qualities that define the universe. and also, by definition, if the universe HAD AN OUTSIDE, that would be part of the universe.

see where I'm coming from?
 Secondhand_Lion
Joined: 11/10/2008
Msg: 83
view profile
History
Nothing unphysical exists
Posted: 5/20/2012 12:09:04 PM
The most abundant thing on this planet is quantified by mess....not mass, and it's called stupidity.
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