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 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 76
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Church and StatePage 4 of 14    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14)
Shariah does not allow for any separation of church and state. It is a theocratic system by nature. The tenets of Christianity, though, are completely compatible with individual liberties and free, secular self-government. The proof is that the U.S. has historically been a mainly Christian country, yet in more than two centuries nothing even remotely resembling a theocracy has ever developed here. That, despite the fact that until 1947, any state that wanted was free to have a theocratic government.
 red_fir
Joined: 11/21/2011
Msg: 77
Church and State
Posted: 4/2/2012 10:43:24 PM
Aren't many churches, just another form of government


No, but a few religions hold that much sway (or have in the past) they will again when the society surrounding them collapses.
And while Catholicism has been rife with aberrational characters only in the minds of those whom seek to enforce a new paradigm have those aberrations over ridden the greater good that the world has garnered from Catholicism.
On the negative side we have the crusades, the greed and the deviants,

practically all the things we find in every single secular government.

On the positive there is a Catholic hospital within a few hours of almost EVERY city,
573 Catholic hospitals treated 84.7 million patients in 2005.

While they use it as an indoctrination tool, many would simply be without ANY education without the Catholics,
6,511 elementary schools and 1,354 high schools, with over 2.5 million students enrolled in 2006.

Higher education? some of the best doctors, engineers, and professors come from Catholic colleges,
231 Catholic colleges and universities with a total of 763,757 students in 2006.

That's the good it did in two years, the Catholics have been formalized since 1030 Anno Domini.
( Statistics from the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops)

And while I don't have the statistics I'll bet you err in your estimation that "More people have been killed in the name of religion and "right", than all the wars mankind fought."
But I certainly will concede that religion has been hijacked by every politician of every stripe imaginable.
But would you prefer that wars were fought in the name and for the glory of the Acme Corporation?
Because we've proven conclusively that governments without religion sure as hell aren't peaceful.

Onto other things...
Don't get me wrong, I'm a card carrier myself and have the utmost respect for people who stand up for workers rights
(that aint the liberals by the way.....).

Its just that you were trying to paint a warm and fuzzy picture of the peaceful liberals grazing quietly in the green fields, and its utter horsecrap.

But I agree with you on the balance issue and the one place that needs balance more desperately than any other is progressives vs conservatives.
So I'm hoping for every atheist, humanist, agnostic, a counterbalance will be found because we already have empirical evidence of culture with weak/controlled religion and it aint pretty.
Heathens with no balance at all would be disastrous.
 raxarsr
Joined: 7/10/2008
Msg: 78
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History
Church and State
Posted: 4/3/2012 12:36:28 AM
poster 88 mentioned that "right wing nut jobs" want to bring "God-centered principles back to US law"

may i ask whats wrong with that?

does anyone really have a problem with laws based on the princapibles of the Bible?

i'm not talking religious views.........i mean stuff like thall shall not steal

personally...i've yet to see a better framework of rules for a society

again..........i dont refer to the religious aspects
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 79
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Church and State
Posted: 4/3/2012 4:59:53 AM
Those of us who object to the folks who want to give Biblical authority to the government, don't object to the basic values of the Ten Commandments. We object to the idea that a religious authority will replace our elected officials as the source of interpretation and enforcement of laws and regulations. The proponents of religious tenants who understand this, are not the ones who are fussing and trying to have Ten Commandment statues placed in public offices. The ones who insist that secular authority must give way to their own particular interpretation of the Bible are the trouble-makers.
 red_fir
Joined: 11/21/2011
Msg: 80
Church and State
Posted: 4/3/2012 8:18:01 AM

The ones who insist that secular authority must give way to their own particular interpretation of the Bible are the trouble-makers.


This is why rhetoric always gives way to violence, secular authority always degrades to greed, nepotism, and tyranny.
Even the most pragmatic are forced to pledge themselves to a higher ideal.
Eventually everyone has to decide if their going to devote their efforts to fallible men, or lofty ideals.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 81
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Church and State
Posted: 4/3/2012 8:55:07 AM

We object to the idea that a religious authority will replace our elected officials as the source of interpretation and enforcement of laws and regulations.


It's a wonder the nation survived into the 1950's, constantly subverted as we were by school prayer, copies of the Ten Commandments put everywhere in plain view, and the horror of manger scenes right where our schoolchildren could be corrupted by them. After all those dark days, how spiritually uplifting it is to see Mr. Serrano's "Piss Christ" take their place! Thank God--I mean Gaia--the U.S. is so much more moral a place than it used to be.

It sounds like you're conjuring up the specter of theocracy so you can portray religion in this country as a threat. Is there some plausible way what you're describing could ever happen?

Administrative agencies have already gone a long ways toward replacing our elected officials as the source of interpretation of many laws, through regulations they publish to implement them, and the enforcement of those regulations. Yet you ignore this very real secular threat and instead focus on an imaginary religious one.

I don't see anyone as a troublemaker for insisting that secular authority give way to his religious views. Are people now troublemakers for defending their constitutional right to exercise their religion, free of undue government interference?
 Welsh474
Joined: 9/13/2010
Msg: 82
Church and State
Posted: 4/3/2012 8:57:01 AM
"does anyone really have a problem with laws based on the princapibles of the Bible?"

Does anyone have a problem with laws based on common sense? And there are far more "religious" writings that have good principles, not just the bible.

"Do unto others" is a pretty good start and these words, or variations of same, are the basis of many beliefs, including atheistism.
 OyVay...
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 83
Church and State
Posted: 4/3/2012 8:57:50 AM
I don't have a problem with moral tenants based on biblical law. For that matter I looked at some of the sharia law, and some of it seems about the same as the biblical version.

I don't think we should be stealing, or killing, but some other things, that these 2 rules can be parsed into, may not be looked upon in the same way.

I mean abortion can be sliced into that depending on one's intrepretation of when life begins. Now noone seems to have a handle on that, so it will be something arbitrary, and hence the church, is trying to govern, INSTEAD of the non-secular government.

As for stealing, I have a boatload of problems on that one..stealing should simply be stealing, but we have a whole bunch of rules on that, most written by the good religious folk, of various levels of government.

Now If I go buy a 9mm and walk down to the local bank and make a less than legal withdrawl, I probably get 25-30 years upon capture and trial. Even if it was only $200 I stole.

Now let some of these bankers write bad product with mortgages, they get a bonus(which is stealing, they knew the product was worth sh1t when they wrote it). Or a mister Madoff. Or others who bilk people out of millions, but get a slap and a 36 month trip to club fed to work on their golf or tennis game.

Or the republicans favorite citizens themselves, the corporations, who routinely violate the same law over and over some as many as 7 times in 10 years. They pay a minor fine(minor to them), promise not to do it again, and inside of 9 months violate the same law. BUT since you can't jail a corporation, no one gets punished, not the board, the ceo, the coo..he11 even the guy designing the breaking of the law, gets a walk, oh and a bonus.

But good christian men, designed these laws and allowed the system to be worked as it is, gamed everytime by the powerful, and the little guy gets and carrys the weight.

But you never here the christians lamenting those things now do you?
 red_fir
Joined: 11/21/2011
Msg: 84
Church and State
Posted: 4/3/2012 9:08:35 AM

But you never here the christians lamenting those things now do you?


Yes you do.
Corporate corruption is a worthy target for your vituperation.
Taking advantage of the poor is contemptible. and those
"good christian men, whom designed these laws and allowed the system to be worked as it is"
Were joined by multitudes of greedy non religious people in their efforts.
If you wish to start a drive to end corporate corruption, cronyism, and their caustic influence on government you will find millions of grass roots Christians on your side.
 Damselffish
Joined: 10/15/2011
Msg: 85
Church and State
Posted: 4/3/2012 11:37:00 AM
and i just want to state ^^^ nothing is for free....nothing!!!!
carry on
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 86
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Church and State
Posted: 4/3/2012 11:40:53 AM
That video scares me. Liberals can't seem to grasp how bad it really is... and that scares me also.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hKEd6rzbeg&feature=player_detailpage#t=200s

Link goes to 3:20 and is the reason why this cannot be compared to anything Western religion and I really think the last stand of western religion will be on this problem. It could probably cause the end of it.

It isn't a right wing conspiracy... it isn't greedy oil companies. It is a real problem

Unfortunately this doesn't illustrate why a separation of church and state is necessary it illustrates a fundamental difference in world views that are incompatible with the western concept of acceptance of differences. Our acceptance is one sided.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgsrnmzxEUY&feature=related Good attempt to explain the difference.

This is why I think it should be acceptable for western governments to acknowledge a long awkward history with western religions and simply declare that the inn is full. We have no room for another entrant. There cannot be an acceptance or tolerance for sharia in any form. Then the separation is complete.

To deny that history and the relationship with western religion and western culture and western society is to deny the separation that is in place and leaves an opening for them to come in and set up shop until a very long and slow migration and population growth will build up to a critical mass. Islamic people ok. Even places of worship. But that is the absolute limit. No independent justice system, no Islamic courts, no Islamic legislation.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 87
Church and State
Posted: 4/3/2012 12:02:26 PM

This is one area where you cannot look at it from the left/right perspective, as shariah law goes off in its own direction, and while the typical left/right discussion had on this site is referring to political spectrums as WE are familiar with. shariah law is its own separate animal, having almost no correlation to western law, as we know western law, because it is based on RELIGION.

That's an interesting position for you to take. Seeing as you're the one who brought up the question of where Sharia law would fit on the left/right axis. In fact, the only reason I responded is because you asked the question more than once.

You clearly wanted to think that Sharia law is some sort of liberal ideology - it was the repeated asking of the question that gave it away. You also clearly don't like the way it actually falls on the American political spectrum.

Again, it was you that brought it up. Not me.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 88
Church and State
Posted: 4/3/2012 12:20:58 PM
So, what should the US government and its non-Muslim citizens do to discourage the growth of Islam within its own borders beyond what is already being done by respecting the establishment clause?
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 89
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Church and State
Posted: 4/3/2012 12:35:45 PM
A little sidelight. Feisal Rauf, the Western-dressed, apparently benign face of the Muslim Brotherhood in the U.S. and spokesman for the "Cordoba Initiative"--aka the "Ground Zero Mosque"--has been involved in another project for a long time. That is to study which Western nations offer the most fertile ground for shariah to grow.

The MB, the Islamist group Hassan Banna founded in Egypt in the late 1920's, when it wasn't murdering Jews for the crime of breathing, has over the years found time to spawn other such groups. It created HAMAS in the 1980's. And one of the extreme jihadist groups that splintered off from it, led by Ayman al Zawahiri, an Egyptian doctor, joined with Osama bin Laden to form Al Qaeda.

The Brothers have set up dozens of front groups in the U.S. to promote shariah. CAIR is probably the best known of these. They practice what is known as da'wa, which is a form of proselytizing carried out through a wide range of means--writing articles and books, blogging, lobbying, soliciting donations, filing lawsuits, encouraging Islamist organizations on campuses, building elaborate Islamic complexes like the Dar al Hijrah mosque near Washington, D.C., etc.

The guiding lights behind Dar al Hijrah have also been involved in the "Cordoba" project in NYC. Dar al Hijrah counts among the ex-members of its congregation Anwar al-Awlaki, the mentor of two of the 9/11 hijackers and onetime imam there, and later a leading Al Qaeda recruiter and propagandist (Mr. Awlaki had an unfortunate encounter with a drone in Yemen last year and is no longer with us); and at times, the two hijackers themselves.

Another notorious onetime member of Imam Awlaki's flock at Dar al Hijrah in 2000 was Nidal Hassan, the Army psychiatrist who years later murdered more than a dozen unarmed fellow soldiers at Fort Hood a few years back. Hassan e-mailed back and forth to Awlaki, his spiritual advisor, when he was wondering if Allah would bless the slaughter he was thinking of. Awlaki assured him it was the right thing to do.
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 90
Church and State
Posted: 4/3/2012 12:41:52 PM
I dunno...if you take away fatwahs (which may or may not be part of sharia law)-sharia law kind of/sort of resembles the 10 commandments....personally, if there is something that is illegal or against the laws of the land then it cannot be practiced here (though< I admit I know little about sharia law)...then how does someone practicing their own religion in their own place of worship effect me?


What Is Sharia Law?
By Edwin Thomas, eHow Contributor
The war on terror has thrust the Muslim religion and culture into the spotlight. At the core of both is the Sharia, or Muslim religious law. It is a term often heard but not widely understood, even by the so-called experts who try to describe it on the evening news. Dictating as it does both Muslim religious practice and much of the common traditional culture of the Arab world, understanding the concepts of the Sharia is key to understanding Middle Eastern ways.

Time Frame



The Sharia started to come into being with the creation of the Quran, Islam's most important holy book, immediately following the death of Muhammad in 632. An important concept to understand is that Muhammad himself, like so many major world religious figures, wrote nothing himself. What we know of him--his sayings, teachings, and dictates--come to us from his followers and their later interpreters.


Identification



Sharia is the entire body of Islamic law. The term literally means "the way to the water source." It is a wide-ranging body of law and personal rules, regulating matters of jurisprudence, hygiene, politics, business, banking, family, sexuality, diet, and society. It is meant to serve as the governing principle both within the Muslim world and for Muslims living outside it.


Misconceptions



The most serious misconception is that the Sharia and the Quran are synonymous. They are not. The Quran is the most important component of Sharia, but Islamic law is drawn from many other sources as well. A second major source is the Sunnah, or personal example of the Prophet Muhammad. Another misconception is that Sharia is somehow codified, or otherwise a monolithic body of law. This is untrue. There are numerous schools of thought regarding what is and is not Sharia, with both minor and major disputes between them being common.


Features



A well-known term involving Sharia is the Fatwah. This is an opinion by an Islamic legal scholar. In Sunni Islam, these are non-binding, but in Shia Islam they could be if the scholar in question has sufficient status and support. The most infamous example of the latter is when Ayatollah Khomeini of Iran pronounced a death sentence on author Salman Rushdie in 1989. In modern times, Islamofascist terrorist leaders such as Osama bin Laden have taken to issuing "Fatwahs," but as these individuals are typically not Islamic legal scholars of any kind, these so-called Fatwahs have dubious standing within mainstream Islam.


Function



Covering a wide array of subjects, the Sharia requires years of dedicated study to master. However, some of its better known requirements are simple and easy to explain. Sharia law dictates the Halal, or the famous Muslim dietary laws that prohibit the consumption of pork and alcohol, among other things. Sharia also requires the use of the right hand for eating and drinking, mostly because it is common practice to use the left hand for cleansing after defecation. Sharia describes the major Islamic religious festivals, such as Eid il-Fitr. Sharia also contains the famous dictate of verse 9 "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." This law is generally interpreted as requiring Muslims to bring non-Muslims under their political domination, but to be tolerant of other religions that exist under their rule. However, the Jizya, or tax on non-Muslims, is required.

http://www.ehow.com/print/about_4572297_what-sharia-law.html
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 91
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History
Church and State
Posted: 4/3/2012 12:47:17 PM
So, what should the US government and its non-Muslim citizens do to discourage the growth of Islam within its own borders beyond what is already being done by respecting the establishment clause?


pay attention
http://shariahinamericancourts.com/

Cross political lines
http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/the-five/transcript/judge-rules-american-courts-can-use-sharia-law

Believe what they say. It isn't a secret. They are not kidding.
http://frontpagemag.com/2012/03/21/subverting-america%e2%80%99s-legal-system/2/

It has issued a fatwa ruling that U.S. citizenship is acceptable for Muslims only “on the condition that they do not accept indefinitely the law and legislation of that country” and maintain their “loyalty to Allah and His Messenger.”


Realize that no matter how much it sounds like a right wing nut hates a liberal socialist they are arguing two sides of the same coin. This is another coin.

Watch who supports what
http://www.voanews.com/english/news/Egypts-Muslim-Brotherhood-Reverses-Political-Tactics-145954935.html
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 92
Church and State
Posted: 4/3/2012 2:20:38 PM

Look at what is happening in other countries before you so blithely dismiss shariah law and its effect, and whether or not there are those who would LOVE to implement it.

Show me.

I'm reasonably well informed. I live in a country which has multiculturalism as its mantra. I don't see any push for Sharia law. As a proportion of the population, I suspect we have a larger Muslim population than America.

I knew a couple of Ismailis who were dealing with divorce through the principles of Sharia some years ago, but there are also Jewish religious norms that come into play in that community in the same circumstances. Neither is a legally binding thing, but a cultural one.

This is just one of the myths that you kind of have to believe to be an American style right winger. Just like the all the world's scientists are members of a secret Marxist cabal to bring down America. Or that Obama's health plan (originally put forward by the Heritage Foundation and proposed by the GOP in the '90's) is somehow socialism. Or that evolution is in dispute. Or that the USA was founded as a Christian nation. You don't have to believe them all, but you have to believe some of them.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 93
Church and State
Posted: 4/3/2012 3:16:47 PM
I never go to youtube political videos. It's a lot easier to lie with video editing and quick cuts than it is in print. I've made that mistake before and it takes so long to parse all the bullshit and nonsense that it's just not worth the 7 minutes it takes to watch.

The last time I went to some link someone cited it was astonishing how many lies could be crammed into a few minutes and seem reasonable unless you actually knew a little bit. It was an economics video and even with only one Econ 100 course under my belt 30 years ago I could recognize the outright lies.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 94
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History
Church and State
Posted: 4/3/2012 3:31:54 PM
I never go to youtube political videos. It's a lot easier to lie with video editing and quick cuts than it is in print. I've made that mistake before and it takes so long to parse all the bullshit and nonsense that it's just not worth the 7 minutes it takes to watch.

The last time I went to some link someone cited it was astonishing how many lies could be crammed into a few minutes and seem reasonable unless you actually knew a little bit. It was an economics video and even with only one Econ 100 course under my belt 30 years ago I could recognize the outright lies.


This is what happened when you werent looking.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/islam/shariah-law.html

How did Shariah come to be considered in Canadian jurisdictions?
In 1991, Ontario was looking for ways to ease the burdens of a backlogged court system. So the province changed its Arbitration Act to allow "faith-based arbitration" – a system where Muslims, Jews, Catholics and members of other faiths could use the guiding principles of their religions to settle family disputes such as divorce, custody and inheritances outside the court system.


This is what you didn't listen to
http://www.nfb.ca/film/sharia_in_canada_part_1

Sharia in Canada is a 2-part documentary series that delves into the debate over Islamic tribunals in Ontario. In December 2004, the Boyd Report recommended that Ontario authorize Islamic tribunals based on the sharia, a system of justice directly inspired by the Koran.


It's not over
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sm_qnQfsRco
Sharia Financing


This is the right answer:
http://www.canadianlawsite.ca/sharia-law-canada.htm

Attempts to set up Sharia courts in Canada in 2005 were abandoned after protests. The Jewish community and the Catholic community did not want Muslims introducing Sharia into Canada, so they accepted the decision to ban all religious arbitration in Ontario, including their own respective tribunals.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 95
Church and State
Posted: 4/3/2012 3:41:00 PM
That's not Sharia law. That's arbitration. Actually, it was introduced precisely because Jewish arbitrations had been going on for decades. That's precisely what I was alluding to when I talked about the guys going through divorce arbitration.

Yeah, there was a big hullabaloo over it and the plan was scrapped. But it was only ever proposed for arbitration. They never introduced it formally here in BC, but between willing participants, it is going on here and in Ontario. It's two people who agree to abide by the arbitration of whatever religious practices they both adhere to.

edit: If you and I made a $50 bet and couldn't agree on who won, we could go to court, or we could agree to present our respective cases to someone we both respect and be willing to accept his decision. In a nutshell, that's all this is.
 Welsh474
Joined: 9/13/2010
Msg: 96
Church and State
Posted: 4/3/2012 3:42:42 PM
"the video shows scenes of a march by islamists in England"

Geez, a march. Wow. Is that like when the Irish march through Boston for St. Paddy's Day? Or like a gay pride march? Or how about celebrating Queen Elizabeth's birthday? A march, holy shit.

If you get your news and veiws from youtube - shakes my head here - all I can say is sad and pathetic.
 OMG!WTF!
Joined: 12/3/2007
Msg: 97
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History
Church and State
Posted: 4/3/2012 4:25:09 PM

Show me.


The easiest way to see how cooky sharia becomes In other countries is to look at the judgments or fatwas they come up with. Just go to the Islamic Sharia Council of Great Britain website and have a ball. Here's a couple to get you started. Try some of your own.


Question: what is the ruling regarding a couple where the wife had suffered abuse in childhood and due to that she refuses to respond to her husbands sexual needs


Answer...


it is the woman's duty to respond to her husband's requests for conjugal relations. She should not give silly excuses and try to avoid it. The prophet said "if a man calls his wife to his bed, let her respond, even if she is riding her camel


Awesome. Park the camel,forget about that silly childhood trauma and hop in to bed.

Want custody of your kid?


The mother is recognised as generally the fittest person to take care of the children, because of the instinctive love and tenderness she feels for them and her closer contact with them throughout pregnancy, nursing, and childhood. However, if the mother marries again she would generally forfeit her right to custody


Only until he/she is seven and just don't get married again.


But it was only ever proposed for arbitration. They never introduced it formally here in BC, but between willing participants, it is going on here and in Ontario. It's two people who agree to abide by the arbitration of whatever religious practices they both adhere to


There are two problems with voluntary arbitration. One, it's rarely voluntary. There is a certain presure to conduct your life as a good muslim and go to muslim court instead of a court where you actually have rights. And the second is that it rarely stops at arbitration. Great Britain sanctioned five sharia courts for arbitration and civil case purposes and they now have over 80 in operation. 75 or more "courts" operate without any supervision or inspection by a proper authority. Not cool.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 98
Church and State
Posted: 4/3/2012 4:28:40 PM
Not even close........ not EVEN close. If you and "I" were to make a bet and go to court, the court would make its decision based on the LAW OF THE LAND, either Canada or US, depending where you went to court.

Yes, I said we could go to court. But if we didn't want to go to court, we could go a different route. That's exactly what I said.

Two Muslims having a dispute can go to court. But they could decide between them to go to a Sharia court and that court would act as an arbitrator. Nobody is forced to go that route, and if one of the parties doesn't want to, then they go the traditional route. If they go before a Canadian judge then it would be a standard case before the courts.

Is that really so hard to understand? It's an arbitration process.

edit:
There are two problems with voluntary arbitration. One, it's rarely voluntary. There is a certain presure to conduct your life as a good muslim and go to muslim court instead of a court where you actually have rights.

Oh. It's the old "Islam is the Borg" argument. Cause if you're Muslim you can't think. This one is invariably brought up by someone who has never met a Muslim in his or her life.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 99
Church and State
Posted: 4/3/2012 4:30:32 PM
i'm not talking religious views.........i mean stuff like thall shall not steal

And how is this necessarily "bible based" law...? I'm sure you are intelligent and educated enough to know that law forbade such acts as theft, murder, kidnapping, assault, etc., all those things folks like you claim are "bible-based", existed as law before the Bible (or even Torah) existed... These are things that were considered "wrong" and "illegal" before Christianity (or even Judaism) was even a glimmer in someone's eye...

These are NOT "bible-based" laws but, rather, long established principles in laws throughout the known (at any given time) world... These are NOT testaments to the "wisdom" of Christianity or even it's God whom no-one even considered to exist at the time, these are testaments to the wisdom of humanity...

again..........i dont refer to the religious aspects

Well, given what I've shown above, "God-centered principles" and "bible-based" law can ONLY mean the religious aspects (because that which you describe as "bible-based" are in reality, anything but)...
 OutofControlMan
Joined: 12/22/2011
Msg: 100
Church and State
Posted: 4/3/2012 4:36:38 PM
^




got you halftime-- when two parties go to court, generally " everyone" loses, except the lawyers who slop up to the trough for maximum fees.

most likely lawyers & their bar associations generally oppose arbitration processes including sharia for obvious reasons, not as much chance to belly up to the trough & suck some money away
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