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 Welsh474
Joined: 9/13/2010
Msg: 151
Church and StatePage 7 of 14    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14)
"Can you show me where there is a concept such as "honor killing" in ANY other religous system|

We just don't call them honour killings in North America. We have friggin nut jobs killing women all across your country and mine. Some crazy fvcker guy kills his wife, kills his wife and children, or strangles a hooker, or rapes a murders a college co-ed, or beats, robs, rapes and kills some young gal working in a convenience store, and on and on and on. Every day, 24/7. All colours, all ages, all races and all religions - men killing women. You think it's open season on Islamic women through honour killings - look at the friggin murder rates in North America performed by non-Islamics.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 152
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Church and State
Posted: 4/4/2012 6:54:40 PM
ROFLMAO...

The day I become frightened, sorry, "concerned", about the future of democracy over nutjob rants on youtube will be the day I ask my kids to take me in to be assessed for dementia...


You don't have to quake in your boots. Concerned is the appropriate word. You obviously didn't pay attention to the video. You wrote him off as a nujob on youtube.

Did you notice his age, the room. He is a healthy male, there is a four post bed (not cheap), at the end of the bed is what looks like a book bag so most likely with his age he is a college student. There is a hardwood floor and a floor to ceiling mirrored closet door that is parially open. The closet is organized and clean as well as the rest of the room. The headphones and microphone on his head are the typical type used for video games. They are stereo headphones with a mic so they are for multiplayer games such as battlefield, or call of duty. He is well dressed. The sparse comments on his video only indicate admiration. "may allah? reward you with jhanah al-firdous" that is, I think, the holy paradise garden for the faithful. Kafir is an Arabic term used by Muslims to describe non-Muslims. So all of that 'ranting' about not following the laws of the Kafirs... who's laws do you think those refer to?

The part you didn't notice is that there is nothing to indicate that he is a nutjob. He is just expressing his faith.

My concern as the topic of this thread is about is 'church and state' The concern people have with the american christians and theocracy does not even compare to this in any way. Paul keeps mentioning intention. Intention is the heart of it. There is no comparison for any of the overblown american Christian concerns. There is no comparison at all to the american taliban and this. Intention matters.

So, yeah, I get it. It isn't here. However it is in Britain, Germany, Sweden, etc. I do not fear a christian grandmother or grandfather or of the standard american christians. The creationists are just asking to be mocked because its really funny. There is no comparison to the intentions between american christians and sharia law.

My concern is the lack of concern. Why would I ever want to vote for someone that doesn't take this seriously. My concern is that within a few years Britain could find itself along with France in a civil war over sharia. Will you care than? Will you support helping them or decry it as republican thocrats warmongering? It isn't a small probability of occurance.
 OMG!WTF!
Joined: 12/3/2007
Msg: 153
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Church and State
Posted: 4/4/2012 7:03:14 PM
Sure, if you say so. I won't even bother to check if you're talking out of you azz


Why would you? You know muslims.


If the husband wants to have something that a Canadian or US court might sign off on, he has to convince his wife to go. If she doesn't want to, then they go through the regular court system, or some other arbitrator


You still don't have a clue. The problem arises when there is no civil marriage and then wife is seriously at the mercy of misogynist pr'cks. She has next to no parental rights and absolutely no property or estate rights in sharia court. Without a real marriage certificate to back her up, she's exposed to some pretty great injustice.

I'd like to be so well adjusted that I can live happily among people who operate like that. But I can't.
 Doremi_Fasolatido
Joined: 2/14/2009
Msg: 154
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Church and State
Posted: 4/4/2012 7:15:21 PM
Yup, people did things differently back in the days of "old time religion" didnt they?

If you were homosexual, you were considered an abberation. If you were female you were considered chattel. Some folks were bought and sold like goods at the market. As much as we think is wrong with society today we have progressed. The fact we can discuss this topic with others worldwide is a sign of our progress. Agree, or disagree we can see in real time how others feel about a subject. It's not just technology that is evolving but also our perception and laws and us, as a society.

The USA is a melting pot. I've heard this before. Demographics as far as societal racial makeup are changing too. Our laws are based on the will of "we the people". To form a "More perfect union" we don't always need to agree. Obey the laws of man, because we live with others together and laws are needed... And obey the laws of God and love one another. Because it makes life easier for everyone.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 155
Church and State
Posted: 4/4/2012 8:00:36 PM

She has next to no parental rights and absolutely no property or estate rights in sharia court. Without a real marriage certificate to back her up, she's exposed to some pretty great injustice.

So she exercises her legal rights and says "screw Sharia court, my kids mean more" (I don't suppose you'll try to argue that a muslim mothers maternal instinct isn't as strong as that of "our" women, will you?) and takes it to a court of law where she doesn't need a marriage certificate or to even have co-habitated with the father... She claims legally enforceable child-support which she will get... And, if she did co-habitate with the father then she may even get a share of the property acquired... Pretty simple, this isn't Saudi Arabia after all...
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 156
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Church and State
Posted: 4/4/2012 8:02:05 PM
We call it "domestic violence" when jealous azzhats have their "christian honor" debased to the point of violence against women...and sometimes guys. In the christian-taliban courts, like others, "the women had it coming to them".

Our christian- taliban is opposed to protections of women against our worst religuous amongst us.

http://motherjones.com/politics/2012/03/republicans-violence-against-women-act
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 157
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Church and State
Posted: 4/4/2012 8:13:06 PM

We call it "domestic violence" when jealous azzhats have their "christian honor" debased to the point of violence against women...and sometimes guys. In the christian-taliban courts, like others, "the women had it coming to them".

Our christian- taliban is opposed to protections of women against our worst religuous amongst us.

http://motherjones.com/politics/2012/03/republicans-violence-against-women-act


hahaha... I knew that was coming. name the legislation 'violence against women' and fill it with a ton of programs that throw away money that republicans can't let stand and then get the honor of saying that "republicans are against the violence against women act

I have less fear of the idiot left and games with words and toys by saying america is the land of the lost... Your nothing in the level of a threat. Even if Obama wins and the Supreme court awards that idiotic plan that no one read before passing bassed on fantasy and feeling good about saying we do good... it isn't anything close to our little friend that had a few youtube videos. The one you don't care about. The one that it doesn't bother you. That whole distraction... just some red herrings.

He has more video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajT2ZtwxSNs&context=C4b239eaADvjVQa1PpcFNpfD3SzXoGctqNNpXceuGUYeaqWZnS8g8=

Look familiar? This was just over a week ago. Now lets take that prior video where he innocently mentions cutting of heads... we then see in his history that he has a little cute comment on someone elses vidio where he says he wishes he could cut off their head... on and then we see that he has a crap load of videos all posted in the last few weeks and one of them talks about his brothers in the middle east indicating he is in a western country.

Yeah, nothing to see here. Move along. Lets talk about trojans.
 Bladesmith81801
Joined: 10/30/2010
Msg: 158
Church and State
Posted: 4/4/2012 8:14:14 PM

Hey blade............

You wrote:
"That's right... It is JUST arbitration... and that means it is the woman's CHOICE since arbitration CANNOT, by law, be forced on another... You did see that point, right...? That it is HER CHOICE to go to arbitration... "

If the muslim man of the house is insisting on going to shariah arbitration in the first place, just how much weight do you think that he will give his wife's desire to NOT go to shariah arbitration? Do you really honestly think that he will give a fat rats ass what she wants or doesn't want? And you consider yourself as the one who stands up for women, knowing full well what muslim societies do to women all over the world.................

THAT is funny.

Paul K


Point of fact Paul I wrote no such thing.
 Bladesmith81801
Joined: 10/30/2010
Msg: 159
Church and State
Posted: 4/4/2012 8:25:51 PM
Paul you know FA about Muslims, much less Muslim women. I happen to live with two sets of them as my neighbors. One is ultra religious (Burkah, the works) and the others not so much. I've spent a lot of time with them, and they're fascinated by my religious beliefs as a Wiccan. Remarkably, none of them have tried to be head me or ANYTHING! Even when we're trading baked goods and desserts! OMG! WTF!

The really hysterical part? Both of those women rule the roost. I've even learned the words for "Yes Dear". The more moderate family wife laughs her ass off whenever she runs across one of you know nothing types who scream she's being repressed. Because she makes damn sure her husband knows that the minute he even thinks he's going to beat her, stone her, or treat her badly, she's going to kick his ass, and then his FATHER (Also a very muslim fellow), will kick his sons ass again. Meanwhile, the "Christian" family on our little apartment block just had their child taken away again by child services. Because of the violence in the house.

When you don't knwo what you're talking about, your mouth is best used for chewing. Heres a cookie.
 OMG!WTF!
Joined: 12/3/2007
Msg: 160
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Posted: 4/4/2012 8:54:09 PM

So she exercises her legal rights and says "screw Sharia court, my kids mean more" (I don't suppose you'll try to argue that a muslim mothers maternal instinct isn't as strong as that of "our" women, will you?) and takes it to a court of law where she doesn't need a marriage certificate or to even have co-habitated with the father... She claims legally enforceable child-support which she will get... And, if she did co-habitate with the father then she may even get a share of the property acquired... Pretty simple, this isn't Saudi Arabia after all


Child custody of course but property and other assets is absolutely dependent upon where they happen to live and how they've arranged themselves financially. It's a legitimate risk and concern.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 161
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Posted: 4/4/2012 8:58:20 PM

One is ultra religious (Burkah, the works) and the others not so much. I've spent a lot of time with them, and they're fascinated by my religious beliefs as a Wiccan.


That’s the goal right. That is religious freedom. You being all Wiccan and they are Muslim and someone else is a Christian and everyone goes to Wal-Mart. No harm no foul.

Don't associate that with Sharia.

http://open.salon.com/blog/henryr/2010/09/11/taqqiya_lying_in_the_cause_of_islam


There is in Islam a principle known as Taqqiya, or deception. What it pertains to is lying. There are three categories of purpose for which lying is permitted in Islam. They are lying for the cause of Islam; lying to maintain or bring about peace between the (Muslim) tribes; and lying to maintain or bring about peace in the home.


Now, I noticed you didn't mention the husbands. Maybe they are not married. I have met Muslim women and they are nice. I have never gone to dinner, spent time, or had a relationship so I couldn't say anything more. I even know Muslim background people. I do not know any Muslim men. Not the full turban and stepping of to pray at specific times of day. The "Christian" family value type that had their children taken away... Yeah I know them. They are American. We even have cases of women killing their babies because God told them to. And this is a severe form of delusion.

What your missing is that they are not crazy. They are intelligent, educated, and active and productive families. There is just one little issue. You are Kaffir. For those that are in America... I assume they are here to escape Sharia. Not the cute little arbitration court that maintains acceptability in the faith. They are here to avoid that whole, cutting off of hands, stoning and death part. The part that doesn't have an escape clause. The part that says that you believe as written or you should die.

Could you ask them what the rules are for Kaffir?
 Casper66
Joined: 3/2/2007
Msg: 162
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Posted: 4/4/2012 9:56:55 PM
Extremism in any religion can be dangerous because there is no room for compromise with these types of people they have tunnel vision on how things should be according to their own religious belief system. I really don't care what religion a person practices, aslong as they don't try to impose their beliefs on me, certain politicians are doing just that now at state level, passing laws that adversely impact personal freedom of choice. I live in a community that has all types of religions, most of the people I've encountered just want to live their lives in peace, it's the extremists that cause most of the problems, if they kept their religion in the home/heart where it belongs the world would be a better place.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 163
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Posted: 4/4/2012 11:50:37 PM
certain politicians are doing just that now at state level, passing laws that adversely impact personal freedom of choice.


Whatever those state laws are, they only become laws by majority vote. In all fifty states, there are lots of personal freedoms the majority chooses to restrict to some degree.

If you're talking about abortion, that personal freedom of choice you mention is not absolute. The Supreme Court has also recognized--for twenty years now--that the state also has an interest in protecting the life of the fetus.
 Bladesmith81801
Joined: 10/30/2010
Msg: 164
Church and State
Posted: 4/5/2012 6:48:28 AM
"Now, I noticed you didn't mention the husbands. "


Jeebus you're thick. I didn't mention the husbands because we were discussing how Islam treats WOMEN. Do try to keep up with your own topics?

I HAVE discussed Sharia and so forth with them, over one of our mutual dinners. They're against it. They LIKE the freedom from religious persecution here, which is why they LEFT the totalitarian theocratic regimes in their own countries

I love how you set up your straw man. No matter how much proof and personal experience I submit, you can always trot this little bit of utter bullshit out;

"There is just one little issue. You are Kaffir." Yeah, because they're muslim, then of course they're all just trying to decieve us, and they're always going to to lie to us and secretly enact THEIR theology over us. What crap.

I have never gone to dinner, spent time, or had a relationship so I couldn't say anything more. I even know Muslim background people. I do not know any Muslim men. Not the full turban and stepping of to pray at specific times of day.


So by your own admission, you know FA about what you're talking about, have no personal experience with, but because you've seen some alarming You tube videos, you've decided (using your superhuman powers to discern things without actual facts) that those Ebil mooslims are out to get us all.

Tell you what, get back to us when you've actually gotten out in the world, soent some time with actual Muslims, spent some time in Muslim nations, and not get your information from Youtube and Fox news, and get back to us, Mm'k?

Because by your own admission, you're talking out your rectum.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 165
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Posted: 4/5/2012 8:20:18 AM

HAVE discussed Sharia and so forth with them, over one of our mutual dinners. They're against it. They LIKE the freedom from religious persecution here, which is why they LEFT the totalitarian theocratic regimes in their own countries


Then why are you so dense that you couldn't recognize they left it. So why the f* would they want ignorant idiots bringing it back. Talk about dense. Learn how to pay attention. I used Sharia as an example of why religion in politics is a problem and that I also prefer someone that takes it seriously and doesn't lose track of the bouncing ball because they think women's rights are about who pays for birth control. And also that liberals support sharia and is evident by the support given here that it's just arbitration. And completely ignored by people like you that claim to talk to someone that said they left their country due to the theocracy. What do you think Sharia is. It does't matter what form it takes. It is theocracy.

You are not very bright. Not once did I ever say the Ebil moolsims and slur them like you just did. I said Sharia. Nothing else. Not once. Just Sharia.
 Bladesmith81801
Joined: 10/30/2010
Msg: 166
Church and State
Posted: 4/5/2012 8:40:28 AM
You don't seem to get it. They aren't worried about Sharia, because as they both put it, it's NOT a problem here, nor will it be. Moderate muslims have no truck with it, and the extremists won't even muster the political strength to push it through. THEY AREN'T WORRIED ABOUT SHARIA. It's literally a non issue in the muslim community.

The only people all het up over it are the right wing folks who swallow any nonsense put out by Fox and Youtube, and the muslims are wondering wtf is wrong with people trying to legislate out of existance something that doesn't exist. The Christian theocrast are far closer to causing a theocracy here than the muslims, who are literally order of magnitude lower on the political power scale, but your're worried about them? Ridiculous.

Liberals don't "Support" Sharia, and it's an asinine thing for you to assert. We don't support it, we don't worry about it, because it's about as likely as an alien invasion from Planet X. Lack of concern does not equal support, except in the fevered right wing imagination.

Instead of worrying about a religion thats NOT a problem, not likely to BECOME a problem in the forseeable future, why don't you worry about the religion that actually IS becoming a problem, and actually IS trying to push it's agenda down everyones throats?
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 167
Church and State
Posted: 4/5/2012 8:42:30 AM


Then why are you so dense that you couldn't recognize they left it. So why the f* would they want ignorant idiots bringing it back.

You and your fellow righties are the only ones who want to bring it in.

There is no movement to introduce Sharia law except on right wing websites and radio shows.

You keep trying to equate an arbitration process with Sharia law. It's not the same. Just like using Judaic principles in arbitration isn't the same as bringing in an ancient Judaic code.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 168
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Posted: 4/5/2012 9:20:22 AM

You keep trying to equate an arbitration process with Sharia law. It's not the same. Just like using Judaic principles in arbitration isn't the same as bringing in an ancient Judaic code.


And what I liked that Canada did and why you know virtually nothing about it... Canada banned it and in doing so that reinforced the separation of church and state and other faiths gave up that link as well.

You want to bet most Americans would agree that the best course would be to say no to all of them now. That also strengthens the position against the birth control issues as well as any other concerns people here have of a theocracy.

It isn't rocket science. It is a valid position.

http://www.newenglishreview.org/Rebecca_Bynum/Muslim_Organization_in_Nashville,_Tennessee%3A_An_Overview/

There seems to be not one instance I could find that Sharia is being called for in Tennessee. It is not here. I said that in other posts. I said we could see it occurring as a problem in Britain and that it matters. It does matter.

The title speaks for itself.
http://www.au.org/blogs/wall-of-separation/amen-averse-record-number-of-americans-want-less-religion-in-politics

You want to shut religion up for a while. Reinforce the separation of church and state. Denounce Sharia and make a deal that no sharia means they must go back to their churches also.

I guess that’s just me. It seems to me that people have just forgotten how to play politics. It isn't one side or the other right or wrong.
 Bladesmith81801
Joined: 10/30/2010
Msg: 169
Church and State
Posted: 4/5/2012 9:42:55 AM
You're trying to ban something that doesn't exist except in the fevered minds of the right and Fox news viewers.

As they did in where was it, Oklahoma? No Sharia to be found, but they were all for outlawing it. Just in case it might rear it's head somewhere down the line.

You're posting nothing but red herrings. Sharia laws are NOT an issue here in America. An actual Christian theocracy, on the other hand is an actual risk and something thats being attempted. Using your logic and the fact you've avoided the subject like the plague, we can guess you're all for it?
 OutofControlMan
Joined: 12/22/2011
Msg: 170
Church and State
Posted: 4/5/2012 9:56:01 AM


Where do you get this stuff? You understand nothing. Men are automatically granted a divorce. A woman has to make a case and convince about three male imams that she deserves a divorce.


in the United States of America (USA) ??? Really??? what state?? ? where? please, do tell! are we concerned about what may happen in Pakistan or Afghanistan? I thought the concern was about North America, primarily USA.

you REALLY think "sharia" law is going to replace our current laws? int our generation, or that of our children or grand-children?

are you safe from the boogie-man under you bed?? are you SURE?

LOL- youtube of some drunk 17 year old ranting about Islam link given above, if we took the rantings of every 16-17 year old on youtube 'seriously' -wow!
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 171
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Church and State
Posted: 4/5/2012 10:00:24 AM
You can guess all you want. I have already stated clearly that I was not for it. I am also not for a weak president that can't accomplish anything and denies world affairs exist and blames the rich and causes class problems.

I have less fears of a theocracy occuring then of an attempted economic takeover of the private sector by knee jerk reactionary ill thoughtout legislation that no one read before voting for.

I have said before that I would prefer an athiest conservative that was libertarian on social issues. I just don't have much use for liberalisim.
 want to travel
Joined: 7/29/2006
Msg: 172
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Posted: 4/5/2012 10:29:13 AM
all religion is extremism
god sends his only son to be brutally ed, only to bring him back to life.....sounds like a bad indy horror, zombie god!
 OMG!WTF!
Joined: 12/3/2007
Msg: 173
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Church and State
Posted: 4/5/2012 10:32:49 AM

in the United States of America (USA) ??? Really??? what state?? ? where? please, do tell! are we concerned about what may happen in Pakistan or Afghanistan? I thought the concern was about North America, primarily USA.

you REALLY think "sharia" law is going to replace our current laws? int our generation, or that of our children or grand-children?


Actually I was mainly pointing to Great Britain where sharia law and its obvious incompatibility with western law is very much a reality. But for you to live in Ontario and think that there is no chance of sharia law becoming reality anywhere in North America is kind of naive if not completely ignorant. Seven years ago Ontario had to ban all religious arbitration, jewish, catholic, and muslim specifically so that the growing popularity and support for sharia tribunals would legally never be allowed. So for you to say that it will never be a problem anywhere in North America just shows you don't even know what's going on in your own province. It has already been and is legislated against accordingly in some jurisdications...yours, ours, but not all others.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 174
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Church and State
Posted: 4/5/2012 11:22:10 AM

You're trying to ban something that doesn't exist except in the fevered minds of the right and Fox news viewers.


You mean it doesn't exist here. Open your eyes. It should never be allowed to exist here. At least you can say, "Canada didit"
 OyVay...
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 175
Church and State
Posted: 4/5/2012 11:42:55 AM
See how they play to the crowd all the while being duplicitous? It's all a shell game to the conservatives. "Hey!! Look over here!!! They are going to destroy our country with their shiriah law!"

Where more than half of either right or left, don't have any idea of what it is!! The conservative smoke and mirrors brigade has just led you down the path of an argument that has no basis in fact as far as AMERICA goes!

Neither do they answer legitimate questions. They simply blather over your thoughts to keep you focused on the unimportant. Do you want the bottom line?

"Whatever those state laws are, they only become laws by majority vote."

See it is unimportant to the right, that their candidates ran on other issues, and now 'bait and switch'ed the voters who put them in office!

"In all fifty states there are lots of personal freedoms the majority chooses to restrict to some degree"

Then why is it in all, or a majority of red states, that they have problems with women's rights to abortion, gay marriage, voter ID laws BUT no issues with lax gun laws, or racial profiling?

The answer comes from another poster, who led you astray the last 3 pages.

"I just don't have much use for liberalism."

You see, it wasn't shirah law, britain, canada, rights of women world wide...it was just the fact that it is liberalism that is at issue from the right. It's all a game to scare people into thinking they are correct.
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