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 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 201
Church and StatePage 9 of 14    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14)
"Because someone does not agree with the course of the nation, does not make them a 'lying degenerate' or mean trhey 'despises his country' it merely means they think it should change course."

It also shouldn't mean they are "thumpers", "baggers", "fascists", "McCartyites", etc., etc., etc. What's sauce for the goose should be sauce for the gander, as well.

It isn't their "concern for the course of the nation" that makes them ""thumpers", "baggers", "fascists", "McCartyites", etc., etc., etc."...It's the actual measures they impose/try to impose to change the direction that make them those things... you know, all these attempts to impose "god-centered law" and their delusional/theocratic beliefs like the legal attacks on women and gays and such...

It doesn't necessarily mean they are "lying degenerates" or that they "despise the country" but it sure does mean they are ""thumpers", "baggers", "fascists", "McCartyites", etc., etc., etc."...
 Bladesmith81801
Joined: 10/30/2010
Msg: 202
Church and State
Posted: 4/6/2012 2:13:26 PM
You wrote:
"This I have to hear. Paul, please detail for us your extensive experience with members of the muslim religion"

Well, I will tell you this much. Most of my extended family lives in the suburbs of Detroit. Most of them lived in a nice little community called Dearborn........................ Have you heard of Dearborn? I spend a fair number of weeks in Dearborn now and again, and can say that in the past 20 years, it has changed to where unless you are muslim, you are not welcome.

Most of them have moved OUT of Dearborn, as they have had enough of the "muslimification", as one uncle put it, and went to other suburbs. I know that you are now going to unleash all of the typical venom that you do so well, such as calling my experiences as being not representative, that I am a racist, that I am an islamaphobe, that I am a racist, (just wanted to m ake sure that you got that one in), that I have never even been in the presence of these wonderful loving people.......... and I won't be too surprised that you feel that YOUR experience is the ONLY one that counts, and then you will call me closed minded.............................

However, when I was in a local grocery store there, and while in line, smiled at a muslim couple with their kids, they glared at me, and while I was putting things in the car, he made it a point to come over and in a very shrill voice started telling me never to look at his wife again........... I didn't wait to hear the rest, I just took out my phone and dialed 911, and told the operator that I was being acosted in the parking lot, told them where I was, they said that unless it got physical, or I was threatened, that they wouldn't send anybody. When I told my uncle about what happened, he said that it is better if you just avoid eye contact............

Where there other muslims in that area who were friendly, Yes, but most that I had contct with seemed like they tried to act as if I wasn't even there, that I didn't exist. Like I said, I go there on a regular basis, and I stand by the experiences I related. I am certain that for you, this is nowhere near enough "experience" to matter, but I am willing to bet big money that if my expereinces had been all fuzzy and warm, you would be praising me for being so open minded, tolerant, loving, etc..................

Paul K

If thats the best you have, no wonder you're so grossly misinformed. And yes, I'm being nice. So in short, you've never really spent any time in or around the culture, you just have a passing aquaintance and call that extensive knowlege.

Dude, I don't HAVE to say it. You named yourself just fine. Go wallow in your bias and ignorance and let the grown ups talk.
 Welsh474
Joined: 9/13/2010
Msg: 203
Church and State
Posted: 4/6/2012 2:39:38 PM
Geez Paul, your tearful story somehow brought bad images of whitie saying - you black folk can't drink at my drinking fountain, you black folk can't eat at my restaurant, you black folk can't go to my school, and on and on. Pathetic. But I guess that's your history. So someone made a comment to you in Dearborn, imagine what it was like being the black kid on the block 40 years ago. Things evolve, knowledge is power, we grow, we change and when we meet the boogie man he doesn't seem all that scarey unless you can't take your blinders off or leave your preconcieved ideas behind.

This thread has turned into "yah, well, if you think republicans are so bad you should see what what the muslims do". It's laughable. Instead of asking the question about church and state I should have asked whether it's all a conservative thing or a testicle thing.
 Welsh474
Joined: 9/13/2010
Msg: 204
Church and State
Posted: 4/6/2012 6:29:19 PM
It's funny how so many people are afraid of the 10% - 10% of the Muslim population are scarey Muslims, 10% of the population is gay (the conservatives don't like them either and hate the fact that they may want to marry) and maybe 10% of the female population get an abortion so let's control them too. So I'm thinking that 10% of conservatives are zealots and another 10% are afraid of their own shadow and another 10% are racist and another 10% want to control what women do with their bodies and then we have more than 10% that are homophobes in some degeee or another. Then we just have the jesus freaks or religious zealots - all religions have them. And yup, there are some crazy atheists too.

I cannot live in fear and I refuse to walk through like with blinders on and a closed mind.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 205
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History
Church and State
Posted: 4/6/2012 11:46:37 PM
^^^ Falling victim to the fear gamers, some people insist that 10% of muslims are terrorists.
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/US/01/06/muslim.radicalization.study/

In perspective.
http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/claim_that_all_terrorists_are_muslims_ignores_history

Meanwhile, while distracted thusly, the biggest threat to the US and other western nations come from right wing extremists of the Christian bent. But..we are not allowed to talk about that.
http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2011/summer/inside-the-dhs-former-top-analyst-says-agency-bowed
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 206
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History
Church and State
Posted: 4/7/2012 12:20:21 AM
Once again, I recommend Andy McCarthy's "The Grand Jihad: How Islam and the Left Sabotage America." A number of posts on this thread seem to bear that out. Islamists have figured out they may not need to blow things up to make America do their bidding. "Liberals" detest this country just like they do, and that makes them a useful fifth column for jihad.

Just one example: Lynne Stewart is a longtime leftist radical and lawyer who defended the "Blind Shaikh." He is the Egyptian Brotherhood cleric convicted of leading the conspiracy to bomb the World Trade Center in 1993. That bombing killed six people, but it could easily have brought down both towers and killed thousands, 8 full years before 9/11.

Stewart was convicted of receiving coded instructions for terrorist attacks from her client during prison visits, and in the press conferences that followed broadcasting these instructions to jihadists overseas through certain words and phrases she used. She was never charged with treason, but she is a traitor all the same.
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 207
Church and State
Posted: 4/7/2012 12:31:52 AM

"Liberals" detest this country


No, we love America, what we detest is the evangelical theocratic wingnut conservative right and their vision of government in a bathtub....seems there are a whole bunch of Grover groupies.
 Bladesmith81801
Joined: 10/30/2010
Msg: 208
Church and State
Posted: 4/7/2012 9:24:43 AM
It’s Not Muslims Who Are Trying To Impose Their Religion On Everyone: It’s The Catholic Church
March 7, 2012
By Mitchell S. Gilbert

Last Saturday, Cardinal Timothy M. Dolan, archbishop of New York and president of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, told Catholics: “It is a freedom of religion battle. It is not about contraception. It is not about women’s health. We’re talking about an unwarranted, unprecedented, radical intrusion” into“ a church’s ability to teach, serve and sanctify on its own.”

The more I engage, challenge and debate sensitive issues of the day with social conservatives, the more aware I become of how authoritarian governments and religious institutions obtain power and impose their will on others.

And make no mistake about it, religious conservatives in the United States are trying to impose their values and doctrine on the rest of us. No, they won’t try to achieve such objective by telling us that abortion, marriage equality and contraceptives are sinful and against the will of God; that sanctimonious strategy would backfire on them. They are doing it in a much more sinister and deceptive way: They are suggesting that by not legislating and implementing their beliefs the rest of us are guilty of denying them ‘religious freedom.’ After all, the best defense is a good offense and the best offense is to claim to be “the victim.”

In a commentary entitled, “Imposing ‘Sharia’: Roman Catholic,” (Huffington Post), Rabbi Arthur Waskow astutely observes that:

Rabbi Arthur Waskow :
“During the last few weeks, we have seen an outrageous attempt to impose sharia law on the US government and the American public.

NOT Muslim sharia; it is Roman Catholic “sharia” about contraception that the US Conference of Catholic Bishops has been trying to impose on Americans of all faiths and beliefs who happen to work at a Catholic-sponsored hospital or university.”

The irony of this effort to portray Catholicism as under attack, is that it comes in the shadow of political and social conservative efforts to promote the myth that all American Muslims would ultimately like ‘Sharia,’ Muslim law to be the law of the land.
•Are Catholic clergy still free to preach Church doctrine to their congregations?
•Are American’s who subscribe to Roman Catholicism free to not have abortions; not practice birth control; not participate in same-sex marriages?
•Why should a non-Catholic working in Catholic school or hospital be denied his/her religious freedom and civil right to reproductive choice, contraceptives or same-sex marriage?

Considering that a majority of Catholics surveyed indicate that a) they practice birth control and, b) they support President Obama’s efforts to include contraceptives and abortion procedures in medical coverage provided to employees of the Church, could it be that what the Roman Catholic Church is really trying to do is use the US Government to impose Church doctrine on Catholics who won’t follow it voluntarily? Or worse, is Rabbi Waskow right; is the Church trying to impose their doctrine on all of us?
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/03/07/its-not-muslims-who-are-trying-to-impose-their-religion-on-everyone-its-the-catholic-church/
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 209
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Church and State
Posted: 4/7/2012 10:18:10 AM
their vision of government in a bathtub.


If that means a limited federal government, then what you hate is the political philosophy of the men who founded this country and the Constitution that expresses it. But leftists don't have enough power to amend the Constitution to make this country into their socialist utopia. So they just subvert the Constitution instead, and when anyone calls them on it, piously claim to love America.


Why should a non-Catholic working in Catholic school or hospital be denied his/her religious freedom and civil right to reproductive choice, contraceptives or same-sex marriage?


This is like saying employers who choose not to pay for their employees' meals are denying them the right to eat lunch.

Rabbi Waskow: There is no "civil right," at least not a constitutionally protected one, to same-sex marriage.

I guess "reproductive choice" is the good Rabbi's code phrase for abortion. That is a right that enjoys limited constitutional protection. States can prohibit abortion outright after the fetus is viable, except where the life or health of the mother is at stake. An employee of a Catholic school or hospital is just as free as anyone else to have an abortion.

As to contraceptives, how and when has even one of those Catholic schools or hospitals tried to prohibited its employees from buying condoms or any other kind of contraceptive? They're perfectly free to buy all they want.
 OyVay...
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 210
Church and State
Posted: 4/7/2012 10:28:37 AM
Hmmmmm, another couple of thoughts for those with open minds!

First I was looking into that "10% of muslims" thing! I hope some of you took a wander over to google to find out WHO came up with that? It was that noted scholar of Islam Glenn Beck!! Hahahahahaha!!!

The reason I fixated on that number, was the sheer SIZE of it. According to one poster, it might be as high as 300 million!!! The thoughts in my brain turned to all kinds of possibilities! Why not unite a bunch and throw us out of Afghanistan, or help repel us when we tried to invade Iraq? Why would they hide in caves in Afghanistan? Must have been a freakin huge cave!!

Why not invade Israel from 3 sides? 50 million rushing the border all at once should do the trick! I don't doubt there are many terrorists or extremists, he11 we keep creating them with some of our actions. I also don't doubt some of them are fairly influential and rich. Though if they had numbers like these, I'm sure someone would have made some effort to do something more meaningful, than the actions up to now.

As for "Liberals" detest this country"...sorry it isn't so. We may detest you and your view of how this country should be, but we don't detest America. As I see it from my side of the argument, it is YOU who constitutes a fifth column, with your Beck's, Limbaugh's, O'Reilly's and Hannity's and their followers. It is YOU who are trying to undermine the freedoms in this country. It is YOU, who baztardized the Constitution with the Patriot Act, yes YOU and the conservatives who proposed it and passed it during a time of great sorrow and anger in this country.

It is YOU who propose to circumvent the seperation of church and state using "state laws" as opposed to federal ones to forward your agenda. You want to cite the odd liberal, when we have so many more to cite on your side. Karl Rove an his dirty tricks, caught red handed. Or the Koch brothers funneling money into these state debacles and shams after republicans win office on one platform and then switch to something entirely different, once they take office.

It is YOU and your senator McConnell who announced right after Obama took office, his first job was to make Obama a one term president, NOT help govern for ALL THE PEOPLE!

I could go on, why bother? It's not like you guys are capable of independent thought. The people know..that's why there is a recall in Wisconsin, congress enjoys an approval rating of 10% or less, almost all women acknowledge if not a war, certainly discrimination of their rights by conservatives. Hopefully they say it with votes in November and sen you back to the drawing board, and maybe you will get it right. It's "We the people" NOT "We the rich white people"!!
 OutofControlMan
Joined: 12/22/2011
Msg: 211
Church and State
Posted: 4/7/2012 10:44:16 AM

. According to one poster, it might be as high as 300 million!!! The thoughts in my brain turned to all kinds of possibilities!


the same poster claimed there are about 3 billion Muslims in the world (almost 50% of the total population, including every man woman and child, even 85 year olds & 2 year olds)

this figure I believe is wildly inflated.. see; http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

or: http://www.religionfacts.com/big_religion_chart.htm

according to these, about 33 % of the world follows Christianity (roughly 2.3 billion people -imagine! if only ONE PERCENT are "extremists" that would be 23 million! 10 % would be 230 million!

Islam has about 21% of the world as followers (approx. 1.3 billion)

"non-religious" is 16 %, Hindu, 14 % (almost a BILLION! ) OMG , 10% would be 100 million!) !!!

so first, "3 billion" is wildly inflated by more than 100% over the real number, second not sure where the 10% are "radical/extremist" comes from. I assume we could eliminate those under 10 years old and those over 75? under 10 alone would be around 15-20% of the Muslim population...( .i.e. about 200-250 million)
 trinity818
Joined: 9/1/2006
Msg: 212
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History
Church and State
Posted: 4/7/2012 11:12:50 AM

But try telling an Arab woman in the United Arab Emirates, Qatar, or Bahrain that they are second class citizens and they'll just laugh at you in their Gucci outfits.


So then...are they allowed to drive alone? Or is it just their sisters in Saudi Arabia that cannot?
 want to travel
Joined: 7/29/2006
Msg: 213
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History
Church and State
Posted: 4/7/2012 12:22:19 PM
I used to think, Islam treated women like second class citizens
but I live in the city with the largest minority (per Capita) in Canada, and a few miles away from the largest number of them in the USA, Dearborn

honestly, these women are not push overs, they are loud, very opinionated, and very much in control of there families
the universities around here are filled with young women who where the head dress, they are smart, most have a great future
all through high school my son would argue ,that the way they dressed was making them second class citizens
it was ALWAYS the girls that would argue for dressing that way!, never, not one time was it an Arab boy

it is just that we are so brainwashed by the media, to believe, and hate Islam, probably to justify invading there countries, to steal there natural resources,or so that the welfare state, Israel should survive,(as long as the west pays them)
personally I do not just not like religion, I think it has ,is, and will, be the one of the greatest causes for human suffering
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 214
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Church and State
Posted: 4/7/2012 12:42:10 PM

There's your lie. They don't have to pay for it, the insurance company does. And they want to because contraceptives are cheaper than child birth.


A lie is an intentional misstatement of fact meant to deceive. I don't think putting it in the phrase "your lie" and addressing it directly to another poster is civil discussion. But from what I've seen in your posts, you respect civility about as much as you do this country and its laws.

You are parroting what I believe was another of Mr. Obama's habitual lies, although I'm sure you believe it. Does anyone with even the most basic knowledge of civics or economics really believe a U.S. president can arbitrarily issue an order and force a private corporation to bear the cost of it?

It should be obvious that private insurance companies won't pay instead of the employers, just to help Mr. Obama. Their duty to their shareholders is to maximize profits, not to serve as a charity. They will pass the cost of birth control coverage right back to the employers in the form of higher premiums for all the other coverage in their employees' policies. The Catholic school or hospital will end up paying for contraception anyway, in violation of the Church's religious tenets. Throwing an extra step into the process is just sweeping the dirt under the rug, and hoping no one sees.

You also ignore the fact some Catholic schools, hospitals and other organizations made themselves the insurers, hoping to avoid this kind of coercion. For them, Mr. Obama's sleight-of-hand provides no relief at all.
 OyVay...
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 215
Church and State
Posted: 4/7/2012 3:53:05 PM
Getting back on track here, have you ever seen what some of the founding fathers of this country said about religion? I mean everyone assumes that they were OK with religion.

"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man" Thomas Jefferson

"Lighthouses are more useful than churches." Benjamin Franklin

"This would be the best of all possible worlds if there was no religion in it." John Adams

It's interesting now that we have so many right wingers, screaming how the founding fathers would have done this or that, because of christianity, when it seems by their own words, they seem not that interested in it, as being the centerpiece of the country.
 Welsh474
Joined: 9/13/2010
Msg: 216
Church and State
Posted: 4/8/2012 5:54:43 PM
I listened to some catholic official this morning on one of you political news shows that they have on Sunday morning. Mr Catholic was railing on about how the government should stay out of church decisions then he went on about how he'd never vote for Obama and doesn't support the democrats.

Thing is, it doesn't matter what he says because catholics will continue to use all forms of birthcontrol, catholics will still line up for abortions, priests will continue to rape and nothing will change within the church or it's flock.

And it sounds like the founding fathers had a good solid handle on religion.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 217
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History
Church and State
Posted: 4/8/2012 9:14:24 PM

And it sounds like the founding fathers had a good solid handle on religion.


They were men for the ages--absolutely brilliant. But I don't think it's accurate to portray them as anti-religious. Much more the opposite. They made the same connection between individual liberties and a personal morality based on religious beliefs that Rick Santorum tries, not always very well, to give voice to. People who largely rule themselves based on moral beliefs are tailor-made for a free country. They don't need a dictatorship with legions of jackbooted secret police to keep them from rioting, staging coups, and butchering anyone who's from the wrong tribe.

The men who founded this country knew most Americans were observant Christians. The limited central government they designed, a democratic republic in which most powers were reserved to the states and the people, had never been tried anywhere on a large scale. It was only thinkable if the American people could be counted on to rule themselves in most matters.

So the founders were counting on most people to be personally religious, and many of them were themselves. But they had seen that official state religions had caused a lot of strife and resentment here, just as they had in England. They could also see that getting everyone to agree on an official religion for the United States was a very difficult problem--as difficult as anything the delegates faced at the Constitutional Convention in 1787. The ingenious solution, which had to wait for the First Amendment in 1791, was to prohibit Congress from creating any official religion.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 218
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History
Church and State
Posted: 4/9/2012 5:39:13 AM
While the nation was founded on ignoring the coveting, murdering, and stealing aspects of the religious du jour, the founders still had it fresh in their minds of how badly church and state worked for their kin from the old countries and established the separation clause in the 1st amendment to try to prevent that sort of state sanctioned tyranny of the majority of the religious here.

Their descendants however, lost that memory of religious persecution across the pond, and have since tried to "correct" that 1st amendment "error". They were successful in playing the fear card in the middle of the last century to put their God in the pledge and printed on the currency. Today there is a persistent, aggressive push toward theocracy by the fearful faithful. Here in Tennessee, the theocrats are pushing hard again for the 10 commandments displays in governmental and public buildings. The first 4 commendments establish theocracy, and the rest are readily and hypocritically ignored by the fearful faithful. It was also important this year to sanctify school prayer gatherings, teaching ignorance via creationism and climate change skepticism in public schools, and protection of Christian bullying.
http://www.examiner.com/liberal-in-knoxville/senator-jim-summerville-reintroduces-ok-to-bully-based-on-religion

A huge percentage of laws introduced since the 2010 election have been religious based social issues laws. The war on women laws are religious based. The health care law opposition is religious based. And they will not stop at those laws.
http://au.org/church-state/february-2012-church-state/featured/the-bishops-obama-and-religious

It takes every generation to fight back the threat of theocracy. We are currently stumbling in that effort.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 219
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History
Church and State
Posted: 4/9/2012 9:12:23 AM

While the nation was founded on ignoring the coveting, murdering, and stealing aspects of the religious du jour


I have no idea what that means. The states had laws against crimes then, too, and no one was immune because of religion.


Their descendants however, lost that memory of religious persecution across the pond, and have since tried to "correct" that 1st amendment "error".


I ask you again the question you keep ducking: So what? What does it matter if some people want to preserve some aspects of religion in public life, just as we've always had? That could never even come anywhere close to establishing a theocracy, anyplace in this country, however much you like to throw that word around. I'd like to see the Ten Commandments displayed in public buildings too, which for most of our history was common. I don't think that violates the Establishment Clause, and I don't think printing "In God We Trust" on our currency does either.

You have your history backwards--there used to be far more intermixing of religion in American public life than there has been since the Supreme Court first involved itself in the Establishment Clause in 1947. Imagine the generations of schoolchildren who were irreparably indoctrinated in Christianity by all those Christmas plays and Easter egg hunts! And it's probably too late for reparations.


have been religious based social issues laws


What does that mean, if anything? Most laws are concerned with some social issue. What makes a law "religious based?" Is a state's burglary statute unconstitutional because it enforces one of the Ten Commandments? How about its laws against murder?

The majority in any state is free to impose its morality on every citizen of that state through laws, as long as those laws are reasonably related to some legitimate government purpose. Anyone who doesn't like a law can criticize it as bad policy, but claiming it's unconstitutional is something else again.
 OutofControlMan
Joined: 12/22/2011
Msg: 220
Church and State
Posted: 4/9/2012 9:41:58 AM

Fear is YOUR word and way of describing it...... not mine. What I pointed out is that the 10% of militant islamists comes to about 300,000,000 people whose main ambition in life is to get to their version of heaven, and on the way there, to covert as many as possible on the way.


A blatant, screaming LIE as I have already shown, there are no-where NEAR 3 billion Muslims in the world, actually fewer than 1/2 that number

also "10% are radical" is a "WAG" (wild-azzed guess) on your part, the meaning of 'radical' is highly subjective as well
 OutofControlMan
Joined: 12/22/2011
Msg: 221
Church and State
Posted: 4/9/2012 9:45:06 AM
also if 80% of Muslims are like 80% of Christians they are 'religious' in name only, occasionally going to the mosque (or church) the rest of the time lying, cheating, stealing , fornicating & committing adultery about as much as any non-religious person does.
 OyVay...
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 222
Church and State
Posted: 4/9/2012 9:47:29 AM
"I'd like to see the ten commandmets displayed in public buildings too"

Ahhh, but there's the rub! YOU'd like to see it, and obviously have an agenda based on your god. When you display that, what does "Thou Shalt have no other gods before me" mean? Almost half of those commandments deal with god and not crimes against society.

I get murder and stealing, but instead of punishing stealing we parse words, so poor people who steal do hard time, rich guys get to improve their golf game at country club type prisons for a few months. Further they didn't deal with issues of slavery, child abuse or the many other things we consider heinous crimes.

As for your "majority in any state" bogus part of your reply. Then why are you guys against the healthcare law? The majority has spoken, voted the law legitimately into being enacted. Oh I get it, it's only the laws you like, not the ones you don't. Hahahaha!!!
 balrog67
Joined: 4/1/2012
Msg: 223
Church and State
Posted: 4/9/2012 11:06:08 AM
Christians and Jews can't even agree on 'which' 10 commandments they are to follow - with most not even aware that there is more than 1 version of the TC in the OT.

So which is it? The version found in Ex 20, or the completely different one found in Ex 34??

Ay caramba....
;-)
 OyVay...
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 224
Church and State
Posted: 4/9/2012 11:31:01 AM
"Actually it was elected into law by CONGRESS"

Yes, that's right, by a CONGRESS THE MAJORITY PUT IN OFFICE! Everyone who voted, voted for that particular congressman or woman to represent them, they won the election over who was opposed to them, ergo they speak for the majority.

It's the exact same thing as match is saying, only he is applying it to these abortion laws, and I am applying it to healthcare. Then again, you guys can't accept the majority unless it comes out your way, right?

As for the "10% being militant", where did you get that figure? Who has these stats? Please cite some authority who knows this, or better still some authority who knows they will act against us?

Like I said earlier, at even 150 million, that's half the population of our country, and more than enough to overwhelm any indivdual military engagement. Why don't they attack? If so many were militant, why was Bin Laden hiding in some house in Pakistan. Surely enough of them(militants)are in the middle east to take over their own country and provide safe haven to Bin Laden?

Sorry we both know that is a "crier" number, the old glen beckster sobbing on stage to scare the people to death!

Sad really...
 want to travel
Joined: 7/29/2006
Msg: 225
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History
Church and State
Posted: 4/9/2012 11:40:37 AM
Really I have yet to meet a Christian
after going to catholic school, grade school to high school,I would say I know enough about JC's ministry
basically he gave all of us ONE commandment , to treat others the way you would like to be treated
over 2000 years and we, can't get one thing right!

at least Muslims live there religion, the overwhelming majority of them are by far more decent then Christians!!!
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