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 1ukn4u
Joined: 10/30/2010
Msg: 639
Feminism Your ViewsPage 26 of 44    (4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44)

Not BETTER rights than men - EQUAL rights with men. What's so bad about that? It can certainly benefit men as well.


OMG! you tell it girl! That's exactly what I've been saying all along. Are you on my side or theres? Who ever's side your on I'm fixing to join that side.
 PittsburghVixen
Joined: 6/27/2009
Msg: 640
Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/22/2012 7:50:57 PM
Well, I'm on my own side, I guess, since verygreeneyez and other posters are trying to tell me what my views are as a feminist, even though I have no idea why or how I became "anti-man". I like men - always have. I get along well with men, except Neanderthals. I don't participate in man-bashing, because bashing any group as a whole is wrong.

But I guess since I think all people ought to have equal rights AND RESPONSIBILITIES, I am anti-man and have my head up my azz.

Shrug.

So, they can bash me...it won't change my mind, I will still stand up for men and women to have equal rights and fair treatment and will go on enjoying the company of my guy friends and especially my future partner.
 1ukn4u
Joined: 10/30/2010
Msg: 641
Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/22/2012 8:35:01 PM
What kind of feminists are we? Is it a different kind or branch or what? I'm down with you. Seriously. Your good. I love what you have to say there.
 ladyc4
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 642
Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/22/2012 9:49:35 PM

Want the right to take 6 weeks of because you CHOOSE to have a child? Sorry!! You have that child, you get released from the hospital, you arrange child care and you get your tired ass back to the job site,


While I can certainly see the viewpoint here, I believe that denying women maternity leave when medically needed would be seen as a detriment to children and "anti-family", which is exactly what the "anti-feminists" have been accusing feminism of being! There are now employers who are granting new fathers some paid leave...if maternity leave is abolished I'm sure that paternity leave will be too. And lets' be real-giving birth is a physical/physiological process-and a C-section is SURGERY. It's pretty much an accepted premise of medicine that certain physical ,medical, surgical events require some recovery time. I do not think that women are "entitled" to months and months of paid leave for what medical science has rendered optional,but if maternity leave is gutted, then you will have a huge outcry that feminism/equal rights are endangering babies, mothers and the family.

Another point-here in the US, though, denying specific maternity leave would simply be made a moot point because any enterprise with over a certain number of employees is covered by FMLA and that can be claimed by ANYONE who has a medical issue or a family member that needs care(which could be a newborn,or it could be one's elderly parent, or a spouse injured in a car accident). It is not paid leave, but it is(the last I knew) 12 weeks and one is SUPPOSED to be able to return to one's former work assignment or one that is equal. I say "supposed" because I think this is where SOME employers take the opportunity to "get even" with an employee who dared to invoke it. And it does not cover all employment situations. However, where it is available, if maternity leave is done away with, women who want a family will just use Family Medical Leave Act. Take THAT away to prove some theoretical point, and EVERYONE will be deprived...how many here would like to be FORCED to choose between their employment and caring for a child who is undergoing cancer treatment? This is where feminism/equality has done some indirect good-making it "safe" in terms of one's employment, to take time off work to care for a family member or oneself in the case of serious illness or injury,via FMLA.

Other than that-no, I also do not agree with lowering standards for occupations where physical strength is critical...
but keep in mind that there are situations where SOME males might fail to meet the standard and SOME women might meet or exceed it.

There is also something to be said for situations where it might be presumed that pure strength is needed but there may be other ways to "skin" whatever"cat" is at issue.

I also have to comment on another posters' feelings that now women are expected to both work full-time outside the home,and have a spouse, family and household with her taking on the majority of the "traditional" responsibilities as well.
I have been a close observer of some scenarios where this was indeed happening,even to the point of the woman being expected to manage the bulk of household bills and expenses.
I'm certainly not saying that all men, most men, or even a lot of men use "you wanted equal rights that means you have to do everything" -or "almost everything" reasoning-or that when it does happen, it's intentionally nefarious behavior on the mans' part! But I can understand that posters viewpoint.
Unfortunately, the right to "renegotiate" is often easier said than done-and I suspect that the renegotiation process is what some of those opposed to "feminism" are calling "destruction of the family."

I think we all realize that it is simply a fact of human nature that some people will seek any opportunity or advantage to "have their cake and eat it too", and thereby muddy the true philosophy of various movements and "isms".
Cindy O
 chameleonf
Joined: 12/22/2008
Msg: 643
view profile
History
Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/22/2012 10:05:21 PM
As we all know, there are radical feminists. As we also know, there are radical anti-feminists. In both cases, they close their ears and minds and spew angry rhetoric and expend their energies in a hateful way designed to further fracture true equality, rather than to seek its advancement.



~ Equal pay? Stop complaining about it and do something to increase your salary. Here's a list of the highest paying jobs in 2012:

Women aren't complaining about earning the highest paying income. In the case of legitimate complaints, it's in equal positions where they have the equal ability, education and experience as a man but get paid less. It's very convenient to continually bring up jobs where physical strength of a man is the norm and thinking those are the positions women are attempting to push their way into, even though it's proven they don't have the strength for the job. This would be as ridiculous as men attempting to be a breast milk donor with the La Leche Leauge. Radicals will attempt to go overboard in their endeavours - that's why they're called radicals. The reality is that the disparity in the vast majority of cases is in positions where no physical strength, or very limited physical strength is a requirement, and again, physical strength has no bearing whatsoever on mental acuity - in this regard, both men and women have their individual strengths and weaknesses - note I said "individual" not as a group. See table 4 in the following - this is in Canada: http://www.parl.gc.ca/Content/LOP/ResearchPublications/2010-30-e.htm

Next rant:


~ Here's the fun part of the "movement". Maternity leave. Really? Want the right to take 6 weeks of because you CHOOSE to have a child? Sorry!! You have that child, you get released from the hospital, you arrange child care and you get your tired ass back to the job site, office, or whatever it is you do. But STOP making this a double-edged sword. You want equality? Make yourself an equal. Stop wanting SPECIAL treatment because you don't have a penis, rather a uterus.

As indignantly righteous as the above post attempts to be, I don't know about the States but here we have 35 weeks of "parental" benefits - for either or both parents. It's not gender specific - here we have a great step in the right direction - equality for both genders. In cases where women bear a child and are the higher wage earner, it may be more advantageous for the man to stay home and be the caregiver, or where there is a partnership where one individual works and the other was always the stay at home partner, it allows the working individual to take time off to assist in the early stages and establish a closer bond with the new child. Or they may decide to take the most limited of time off. It's, again, a matter of choice instead of society's bullies attempting to tell people they can't do something by virtue of gender.



EI parental benefits are offered to parents who are caring for a newborn or newly adopted child. A maximum of 35 weeks of parental benefits is available to biological or adoptive parents. The two parents can share these 35 weeks of benefits.


http://www.servicecanada.gc.ca/eng/sc/ei/benefits/maternityparental.shtml



~ Domestic Violence? Perpetual victims. The fastest rising rate of domestic violence instances are men (gay & straight) but the reality is? These cases are not readily reported because most men feel there is no where to go to be taken seriously when they are abused by their female spouse. Domestic violence is non-gender-specific and until the "movement" gets on board and agrees this is reality? The "movement" and those gung-ho re: it? Are contributing to the abuse of men all across the US of all ages.


Why the sudden turn around here. I thought this was the stance:


Want domestic violence to stop? Be aware ~ rather than a perpetual victim


Truth be told, men largely haven't reported as much until recently because of the disbelief, derision and scoffing from their own gender. That they are reporting it more could be an indication of increased incidences, or a case of it increasing or decreasing at the same rates during the same periods as when women experience it (such as during times of economic stress). There's no doubt at all that it happens. Society can't create the same amount of shelters and special programmes for victims unless and until they become aware there is a need for it. Humanists/feminists who espouse equality, rather than gender bashing that radicals tend to do, would be just as willing to assist in this regard for men as they have been for women.


Look in the mirror, because most of what's being touted in this thread is so anti-man it makes me wonder who on earth raised my gender-peers to be so disrespectful when they claim all they want is respect.


What is being touted by the vast majority in this thread has absolutely no element of anti-man but everything to do with equality for both genders. Speaking of mirrors...
 Talkedintoit
Joined: 3/24/2012
Msg: 644
Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/22/2012 11:56:02 PM
I'm a feminist, from my perspective judging women for their choices is very anti-feminist. A lot of feminists are take time to raise families because they think that their strenght is in bearing and raising children (don't know if you've ever seen woman spelled womban but thats part of the same movement) But feminism is as diverse as women themselves - makes me cringe just a bit when I see women not on board with feminism :o( Only because I see it as a movement for equality, and I truly believe that feminism has been connected with many human movements, and the spin doctors have manage to take its potential away :o( I still see misogynistic attitudes prevailing, in the same way that I still see racist attitudes prevailing.
 mrcs84
Joined: 12/9/2008
Msg: 645
view profile
History
Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/23/2012 12:27:21 AM

In the case of legitimate complaints, it's in equal positions where they have the equal ability, education and experience as a man but get paid less.

When you get down to the brass tacks of it, a business's main goal is to make a profit. So why would any business hire men if they can get the same degree of output from women while paying them less?

It's rarely the case where ability, education, and experience are comparable AND the gap is anywhere near 75 cents to the dollar (or whatever it is now). There are probably other factors that aren't being accounted for.

- Women take time off work twice as much as men do.
- Your average full-time working male works 6 hours a week more than your average full-time working female.
- Men are generally the ones that have been at the same jobs for 10-20 years
- Women are the ones that are having kids and working part-time, if at all, after the kids are born.
- Men are more likely to actually negotiate their pay and ask for raises instead of just hoping to get noticed for their accomplishments
- Men are more likely to pick the more high-stress and higher paid areas of specialization within the same job title.


But hey, look at the bright side, ladies: Men are 93% of workplace casualties as well as 90% of the homeless.
 1ukn4u
Joined: 10/30/2010
Msg: 646
Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/23/2012 2:55:34 AM

Well, I'm on my own side, I guess, since verygreeneyez and other posters are trying to tell me what my views are as a feminist, even though I have no idea why or how I became "anti-man". I like men - always have. I get along well with men, except Neanderthals. I don't participate in man-bashing, because bashing any group as a whole is wrong.


Well verygreeneyes as I've already said I believe and she can please correct me is a lawyer and I'm sure she has laid witness to a lot of B.S. in our court systems.

I believe as you do PittsburghVixen but I'm having a hard time joining your group as you have members and founders who clearly hate me simply for my genitilia.

She brings up domestic violence and this is a very hard subject for me personally to deal with. I haven't been honest about my tale to ell about it on here ever as it is so very painful as a man to deal with. I do however have all the cause and case numbers along with mug shots to back my story I'm about to tell and it will be the absolute truth. I also have the county jails and the SPN numbers and charges for your viewing pleasure.

As I sit at this keyboard shaking and I do know a man today who has his lisense in his wife's purse and is controled in every way and isn't alowed to even drive. So she is right as it isn't a gender issue. Men are abused as well and controled as well. Abusive controling people although mostly male are also female. They have also existed sinse the begining of time and will exist when the world ends as well. However the current state of affairs gears these laws towards women.


I've been in jail for domestic assault. Apparently my face brused my girlfriends fist. I called the police after getting my a** kicked (also painful to admit) and we both told opposite story's and a female cop choose to believe her and arrested me. This is hard for me to admit. Even though she had no visable marks except her fist and I clearly had no visable marks except a black eye. She called the district attorney and told them she was also pregnant. Also a lie. She wasn't pregnant at all. When I stood in a video conference all inmates had to stand infront of on the tv they had a districe attorney and a judge. Murderers, people facing life for opperating meth labs and all sorts of things I was locked up with breezed by the video conference issue free. Yet when I came up to the mic they shut their feed off to discuss my case. My mom and my 2 ex wives joined together to bail me out. The set my bond very high at $10000. So it cost $1000 to get a bail bonds man to bail me out. I'm horrible at relationships this is true. However my ex wives know I'm not abbusive and I wouldn't hurt a fly.

I got a lawyer and began to fight the case I had been kicked from my own home and wasn't allowed to return for 3 months or 90 days or whatever. she was allowed to live there rent free and I was responsible for the bills. I had a baby with this woman and after the 90 days despite having a 6 month old I cut the lights the water and the phone and cable right the hell off. Not proud of this but I was getting my f*cking house back. I had two other kids to care for that as I've said I have been caring for the last 10 years. She left and went to a woman's shelter. As I fought the criminal case she filed a protective order around december of 2010. I remember cause it was like the 19th and I was due in court like the 20th. I ran to my lawyers office with the paperwork I had just been served with. Basically she filed for a protective order and stated I was abusive to her and the now about 8 month old. Apparently I beat them both now. Yet where was the new baby she was supposedly pregnant with?lol

My lawyer had another case and suggested I not even bother to show up and settle the criminal case as I would lose the same rights anyway in the protective order hearing. Like the right to vote and the right to bear arms. I would also pretty much lose most if not all rights to my daughter. So I sat there for a minute in his office and he stepped out to do something. My ex girlfriend was a real nutjob for sure she had always had issues. However I imagined my 8 month old daughter at the age of 18 sitting accross that table and what I was going to say to her. About what happened and what I did and how the system screwed me. Would I be able to say I did all I could? When he came back in and sat down I told him "NO". I will not take a deal despite facing 10 years imprisonment and I will not just sit here and let them take my child.

I had no time to find another lawyer and he said he would be very late and he would try and reset it as they gave very little notice for me to defend myself. I paid the man all the money I had and that was about $2000. I showed up to court and he wasn't there called him and told the judge what he said to say. Like it was short notice and there is no way I can be prepared to defend myself with such short notice. Also stated I deserve representation and my lawyer wasn't able to be here till later as he had another case. The judge who also happened to be female denied me. Told me the case was starting and I proceeded to defend myself. She had a lawyer provider to her by aids to domestic violence.

Shortly there after I look behind me and it was both my ex wives. One all the way from North Carolina. Also my mom. My first ex wife and I although we had a great deal of respect for one another we divorced simply because kids weren't for her. Although I was kind of pissed cause she didn't have this revulation till after we had kids I still had never been anything but respectful to her. She had a lot of respect for me as I have raised our kids for the most part solely for all these years. My second ex wife has had a real bout with drug addiction and has gone through rehab. We are currently dating now. My life is nuts what can I say.


I did the very best I could to represent myself and I provided all the evidence I could. Both my ex wives and my mother testified on my behalf. At the end I looked the judge right in the eye and appologized for my face hurting my ex girlfriends fist. However it was her choice to hit me not mine. The judge dismissed the case and all I had on my back was the criminal trial. My ex girlfriend was ordered to give me my visitation and do custody exchanges in public. This went on for moths and the prosecuting district attorney refused to believe she was the agressor despite overwelming evidence including recorded phone conversations of my ex girlfriend admitting to being the agressor and many other lies. Trial date was set for april 20th 2011. Their star witnes was of course my ex girlfriend who threatened me repeatedly that if I didn't take her back she was going to get me good. April 1st 2011 I meet my ex girlfriend in the parking lot of HEB to bring my daughter back from visitation. She was really agitated and told me I was going to take her back or else. She reached into my vehicle and took my cell phone. She started to try and go through it. I had a smart phone and it was locked. My daughter still locked in the car seat in my MINIVAN.:) She commanded me to unlock my phone. My response was "f*ck you". She struck me. I grabbed my daughter and ran accross the parkinglot to the inside of the store. My ex girlfriend in hot pursuit followed. With my daughter fixing to be 1 years old on april 11th 10 days away I was punched repeatedly throughout the store even fallen over displays. Of course I didn't have my phone but even if I did I wouldn't of called the police for fear of going to jail. In front of several witnesses for 45 minutes I a grown man got my ass kicked with a child in my arms. No one called the police for 30 minutes and finally a woman had decided she had had enough and called and waited for them to arrive to be a witness. They took my ex girfriend to jail for the same charges I was charged with.


When I showed up to court with a bruised face and the district attorneys star witness in jail for kicking my a** he couldn't get a jury to convict me and knew it so they cut me loose. However her bond was only set at $1000 and that means a bailbondsman could bail her out for only $100. However no one ever did. :) Yet when I went to aids for victims of domestic violence no one helpped me cause I have a d*ck so every part of the system including getting custody of my daughter has been paid for by me alone. Take from my honest to god word for word true story what you want. One things for sure I don't feel equal to a woman. I'm not a perfect man by any means. I have made a great deal of mistakes in my relationships and my life. However bad at relationships I am. I am a good father and I really don't feel that I deserved this.

Yes I like independent strong women who know what they want. Yes sometimes those types of women are crazy. I mean allow me to be treated however you see fit. I just want to say to you ladies aren't my daughters also females? Or miniture women whom you should be protecting and concerned with as well? Doesn't a good dad deserve a little help to raise you ladies? I had never been convicted of a crime in my life. I got into two big fights in county jail from insane men. A guy thought I had his wallet and keys. I'm like dude were in f*cking jail. He started trying to kick my ass. By the time I got out of jail I had my ass kicked all over that son of a b*tch. I was only there for 3 days. That's how long it took for them to set my bond. My ex wives and mother stayed awake for the whole 3 days following it on the internet. Please please please give us men a break already.
 --Zen--
Joined: 6/29/2011
Msg: 647
Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/23/2012 4:59:41 AM
Zen, in my opinion, I think stereotypical gender ideals are harmful for both sides of the issue, male and female alike, I get frustrated seeing males judged for wanting to be a stay at home daddy, a nanny, etc, same as I get frustrated seeing a woman judged because she doesn't want to be a wife and a mother, and no, competition isn't harmful. Watch a herd of horses, lead mare, lead stallion, any of the herd can challenge that order, sure it means being better at kicking and biting but they do challenge (same with most herd species) . But, most simply put, Feminism isn't about competing on all stances, it is about being equal admittedly some take it to damn far, but with everything their is always some dumb arse who wants to use it to push some agenda of control.

Restrictive gender roles are only prevalent in highly religious societies. There is a huge difference between gender roles and gender ideals. I'm sure John Wayne can clean up or cook breakfast and Barbi can weld or do some roadwork. As I've stated, ocupation should never influence personality. Gender identity is set at a very young age. It needs opportunity to grow before expanding and strong role models are essential.
Horses? Interesting example since horse has been a slave animal for the last 6 thousand years. However it is a herd because individual has a better chances of escaping dangerious predator with in a group. Most mammals go in heat and competition between genders simply does not exist because cooperation is essential to propagate the species. In human societies it is unacceptable to kick and bite to gain a higher social status. We got evolved version of 'going in heat'. It is called love and our social structure is far more complex but it does feel like a herd ones in a while.
Simply put we are the most dangerious predators on this planet. We can destroy everything living but we still can't stop a hick up or fall in love on demand. Feminism is a blunt tool that can only destroy similar to antibiotics or fission based weapons. The Houdini effect of feminism is like a bright flash of light that briefly outshines a gradual and long lasting toxic fallout. True equality simply can not exist between genders because it would mean end of the human race. We have not evolved enough psychologically to completely subdue our animal instincts or technologically to have a genderless society. Differences between genders exist for one simple reason. Procreation.


I'm going to mention an issue related to this topic directly. Feminism itself is a movement that is part of the atomization
(balkanization) of the population, to break down the dominant culture itself.
PC, or cultural marxism works to dismantle the dominant culture via splintering.
In other words, the typical white woman has no voice until she becomes a "feminist," at which point she becomes the enemy of the dominant white male population. Every group has done this with the blessing of the elites who are doing the social engineering. Blacks, browns, homosexuals, feminists, etc., are all permitted and encouraged to join forces against the dominant culture. Most women have no idea that as "feminists" they are being used by the elites who are using a divide and conquer strategy to gain and keep control.
Anybody can reference what I'm saying here. These are the same techniques that the Bolsheviks used to gain control of Russia. These techniques have been time tested and are extremely effective.
The Frankfurt School promoted these top down ideologies as a means to deconstruct entire cultures.

I am impressed. Does not happen often here. Russia has been 'the experimental field' in the last century.
 cooldude
Joined: 4/26/2004
Msg: 648
Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/23/2012 5:55:44 AM
I think when feminism first started it had the right ideas. But after a while its not always about getting equal, but trying to get ahead. Thats why I don't always like organizations that concentrate on a specific group of people. Instead of feminism how about humanism that will try to better the equal rights of both men and women.



"In the case of legitimate complaints, it's in equal positions where they have the equal ability, education and experience as a man but get paid less."

When you get down to the brass tacks of it, a business's main goal is to make a profit. So why would any business hire men if they can get the same degree of output from women while paying them less?


I use to believe the wage gap was a problem until I started to do my own research about it and was surprised with what I saw.

Yes, your talking about Warren Farrell who worked for the National Organization For Women. He asked the very same question until he did a study into why this happens and what women can do to earn more.
 motown_cowgirl
Joined: 12/22/2011
Msg: 649
Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/23/2012 6:04:31 AM
In the case of legitimate complaints, it's in equal positions where they have the equal ability, education and experience as a man but get paid less

You left out the key word: PERFORMANCE. There are no legitimate complaints in that statement; just a bunch of uninformed presuppositions. I guess you never had to hire people, and probably never had to actually manage any of them.

Employers, particularly smaller employers which make up the bulk of the job creators in this country, want and need employees that can perform consistently at a competent level. THAT'S what leads to the financial success of an organization, not hiring the dumbest and cheapest bimbo they can get off the street. If people actually ran businesses the way you suggest, they'd all be insolvent within a year. So I can tell you've never actually had to run a company, either.

How is pay determined?? Based largely on the factors you described, but also the market value for the job. How does pay change over time??? P-word.

The dynamics of financial success for any employer don't have anything to do with gender. Most compensation surveys do not even consider gender, because they realize it's an irrelevant and misleading bit of data. I had some nationally recognized women's organization interview me once. But it wasn't really an interview; it was a fishing expedition and they figured they could get me to say that most women are getting paid less for doing the same work because they don't have some balls clanging between their legs. I told them the exact opposite of what they wanted to hear. You could almost hear their disappointment. Fukkers never called me back. I know one survey in particular that still publishes gender-based salary data. Guess what, that survey represents a market sector where people get tenure but are also allowed to take lengthy sabbaticals for professional or personal reasons. And the last time I looked, it's women who are still having and taking care of babies. Who woulda thunk it.

If women are consistently paid less for doing the same work, it's because they are consistently performing at a lower level. Whose fault is that?? O exuse me I guess it's some man standing around saying you couldn't step up to the plate. I am well aware of certain specific exceptions... but that's exactly what they are.... exceptions.
 ItsMargo
Joined: 4/24/2007
Msg: 650
view profile
History
Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/23/2012 7:27:07 AM
I'm not entirely certain why some women are sad when a woman (like, say, me) says she is not/no longer a feminist. Anyone care to explain this to me?
 Capn_America
Joined: 10/6/2011
Msg: 651
Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/23/2012 7:59:33 AM

Feminism is an ideology.
As any other, any critique might be deemed and/or interpreted as an attack to the stablishment.
If someone leave the dogma, might be deemed as an ungrateful traitor.


'nuff said.
 lusciousblush
Joined: 4/26/2009
Msg: 652
Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/23/2012 8:08:24 AM
Feminism ia both an outmoded state of mind and a behvior, something for old women. Feminism hurts women more than it helps. Whatever it's original intent was, it was derailed by lesbians who taught that women should hate men.
 chameleonf
Joined: 12/22/2008
Msg: 654
view profile
History
Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/23/2012 8:24:08 AM

I'm not entirely certain why some women are sad when a woman (like, say, me) says she is not/no longer a feminist. Anyone care to explain this to me?

I can't speak for others, but I'm not sad about anything you say you no longer are or may become in the future. We all take a personal stance based on our personal experiences and the information we either research or come across from both men and women. I'd say I'm a humanist with a special interest in the feminin aspect because, being a woman, any changes, good or bad, may impact me or others (including men, as in some of the negative impact feminist movements may have created or may create in the future for them).
 ladyc4
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 655
Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/23/2012 8:54:26 AM
Well, I for one can't answer your question, Margo.

As others have commented-its' a philsophy. It's not like a woman who doesn't embrace-or stops embracing- feminism, is undergoing gender reassignment! Everyone is free to study a school of thought and decide to either not subscribe or to stop subscribing to it. Unfortunately the other side of that coin is that there will always be those who disagree with or disapprove of someone else's decisions about what philosophy(ies) to follow or reject.

Interestingy enough-how long has it been since womens' suffrage has been achieved. How long since Title IX has been in place? How long, how many years- since-despite the ERA failing to achieve national ratification-have we had laws and statutes on the books, against discrimination in economic and educational opportunity based on gender, race, religion etc-against sexual harrassment(especially of women in the workplace)? How many years since women have been granted equal protection under the law/first class citizenship?

Yet here we are, with a thread that has leapt to 30-odd pages in just a couple of weeks,responding to a request for thoughts and opinions on "feminism".

To those whose reports of personal situations and experiences seem to be reflections of feminism run amok, I can understand the tendency to have a jaundiced view of "feminism"-but, as another poster pointed out, the "-ism" denotes it as a philosophy and when philosophies are enacted outside the vacuum of academic discussion, where any philosophy is subject to human interpretation and human failings,there will be issues.

Whether for good or ill, the social practices and economic realities that have arisen from the basic "feminism" philosophy, have created, for many people, a socioeconomic environment that makes returning to the days of Ward and Jume Cleaver an impossibility...the bell has been rung, the toothpaste is out of the tube and the genie is out of the bottle. It seems to me,it is my OPINION- the best way to serve ourselves and the rest of humanity is to make the best of the situation, even when certain aspects or even the whole concept personally pisses one off to no end.

Nobody in their right mind is arguing that gender abilities, physiology and biology are completely interchangeable. Some posts here have almost sounded like women who chose to have children deserve to be punished in the workplace because of the inescapable biological logistics of human reproduction.

At this point in time, I doubt that women who choose to forego motherhood are going to make a huge dent in the issue of propagating the species..but if we as a society insist on making raising offspring less and less appealing-if we start downgrading motherhood/family, if we make combining work and family an untenable position,then what happens when nobody is willing to forego the degree of economic safety provided by paid work,to raise offspring? Will we, the people of "modern"/"western" civilization eventually bring extinction upon ourselves?

I think that the fruits of feminism are here to stay,in one form or another, and that our best bet is to try and come up with a reasonable and balanced way of living with that.
Cindy O
 1ukn4u
Joined: 10/30/2010
Msg: 656
Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/23/2012 11:00:50 AM
Margo I'd say the other posters are correct in saying it's your choice. I'm not trying to change any minds here. I'm just hoping there is another alternative. Feminism has some hate in it and nothing with hate will be fruitful. I am hopeful that men and women can find a way to work together with mutual love and respect to make laws equal better and fair for everyone. That will be a fruitful movement.


Touching on the unfairness of today I'll say there area great deal of men who lose their freedom and their parentalright in protective order judgements such as the one I was in. As a matter of fact %99.99 the judgement is in favor of the woman. In other words a woman almost always gets what she wants. That's why my lawyer told me not to bother and why my particular Case is being examined by a grand jury on changing the laws to steady give a man a chance to put together a defenses. I knew my odds at every stage of that ordeal. Cards were stacked against me going in. On top of it I had no attorney. I had no chance. Yet not with skill but in general living a kind gentle life combined with being extraordinary amount of luck or as I like to put it blessed. The fact of the matter is that there are possibly several innocent men losing their children and their rights is this current system.


Not only that but the level of fear I had to overcome not to just ,cut ties with my daughter and take the deal. Due to the fact that she said she was pregnant the DAy bumped it up from a first time mistomener to a felony. Therefore I was facing ten years for a fictional child who didn't even exist. Yet when I was actually getting hit in front of witnesses with a real child in my arms she still got a mistomener. We aren't about women who had to be hospitalized for broken bones or severe injuries here. We are talking about women in no need of any medical attention at all.


Ugh I could go on and on forever. You get my point. and
 centergame
Joined: 11/4/2011
Msg: 657
view profile
History
Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/23/2012 11:24:07 AM
I remember being hired out of college as a flight attendant for Pan Am and I'm 5'3" and the weight cut off was 126-I weighed 119 and was told that I'd be weighed monthly and if I went one pound over the limit I'd be fired. There was no such rule for pilots. I see flight attendants now who weigh 200lbs. But we were judged on our beauty.


Yea, ughh, I cant stand flying on US airlines because of this. Thank God most foreign countries do not ascribe to feminism and political correctness or they'd also have a majority of sky hags (old, grumpy, and large) for attendants . Gotta love the international flag ships where you get young, beautiful, sweet and feminine attendants. Makes for such a sweet ride indeed.

Oh, and the pilots? They arent meant for customer relations and they are out of sight. The idea of comparing these two is unbelievably rediculous.
 dreamcatcher39
Joined: 6/12/2005
Msg: 658
Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/23/2012 12:26:35 PM

Ugh I could go on and on forever. You get my point

Well dude, if it makes you feel any better, I happen to know someone, a female, who just spent 10 months in jail for domestic abuse. Anyone close to the situation knew that both parties were battering each other. When it went before the courts his lawyer made him out to be a boy scout and her lawyer was just terrible. The more money you have, the better representation you get. The point being, not only men get screwed around.
 Iona_Bob
Joined: 3/31/2012
Msg: 659
Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/23/2012 12:39:39 PM
Yea, ughh, I cant stand flying on US airlines because of this. Thank God most foreign countries do not ascribe to feminism and political correctness or they'd also have a majority of sky hags (old, grumpy, and large) for attendants . Gotta love the international flag ships where you get young, beautiful, sweet and feminine attendants. Makes for such a sweet ride indeed.

Oh, and the pilots? They arent meant for customer relations and they are out of sight. The idea of comparing these two is unbelievably rediculous.

Are you ladies sure the mentally challenged need to have rights?


This is a returning banned poster who has his own agenda and accompanying web site, lives with his parents and is "famous" for sponsoring trips to meet foreign women ostensibly for "marriage." Take what he says in that context.
 1ukn4u
Joined: 10/30/2010
Msg: 660
Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/23/2012 12:57:09 PM
"Well dude, if it makes you feel any better, I happen to know someone, a female, who just spent 10 months in jail for domestic abuse. Anyone close to the situation knew that both parties were battering each other. When it went before the courts his lawyer made him out to be a boy scout and her lawyer was just terrible. The more money you have, the better representation you get. The point being, not only men get screwed around."



Well chick in criminal court you would be correct. Yet in protective order hearings you don't know what the hell your talking about. In a criminal court everyone gets their day in court if they so choose. In a family courtprotection order hearing you might have 72 hours to get a lawyer and your defenses together if your extremely lucky. In my case I had 36 hours from the time I was served. If it had been granted I would of lost my right to own a fire arm and lost the ability to see my child without supervised visitation maybe forever. So please know and understand what I'm talking about here. Percentages of women who end up in these types ofhearings are pretty much non existent. Also in those types of hearings as Ialready stated a woman gets a free lawyer from a program known as aids to domestic violence. So no not a lot of women get messed around like that. Believe what you want to though. Want the stats to prove it?
 dreamcatcher39
Joined: 6/12/2005
Msg: 661
Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/23/2012 3:10:35 PM

Yet in protective order hearings you don't know what the hell your talking about

Don't go just assuming Im an idiot. My ex did have a restraining order against him, It was put in place for good reason. He also wasnt allowed to be in possession of any weapons or allowed within so many meters of me, our home , or my work. Supervised visits were also ordered. although, you may think these steps are punitive you just cant let someone accused of a serious crime run around unchecked. Too many women have died at the hands of their abuser to take that kind of risk.

According to your story, you didnt do what you were accused of, and I am sorry for what you had to go through. I think the blame should be placed where it belongs though, and that is at the hands of the brothers who perpetrate these kinds of crimes. Oh, and i do realize that women can abuse also they just dont kill their partners in the same numbers men do.

I dont know about where you are but here in Ontario you just dont get a lawyer for free unless you are pretty much in poverty. That goes for both men and women.


. Percentages of women who end up in these types of hearings are pretty much non existent.

The reason probably being women dont get themselves in these situations as often or men dont report it.
 dreamcatcher39
Joined: 6/12/2005
Msg: 662
Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/23/2012 4:05:21 PM
Try google hun. This is a protection order there's a difference

I did before I posted to see if we were talking about the same thing and it came up restraining order. Feel free to post the difference as I would personally like to know. Thanks
After further investigation, I have discovered that protection orders and restraining orders are a distinction with little difference, except for in Texas, where your profile states you are from. So what is the difference in Texas?
 ladyc4
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 663
Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/23/2012 4:43:29 PM
I just plugged "order of protection" into Bing AND google...

This is the first entry that came up in both

Restraining order - Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restraining_orderCached - Similar

A restraining order or order of protection is a form of legal injunction that requires a party to do, or to refrain from doing, certain acts. A party that refuses to comply ...


Restraining order provisions - Burden of proof and misuse - Effectiveness


The body of the entry- from Bing

A restraining order or order of protection is a form of legal injunction that requires a party to do, or to refrain from doing, certain acts. A party that refuses to comply with an order faces criminal or civil penalties and may have to pay damages or accept sanctions. Breaches of restraining orders can be considered serious criminal offences that merit arrest and possible prison sentences. The term is most commonly used in reference to domestic violence, harassment, stalking or sexual assault. In the United States, each state has some form of domestic violence restraining order law,[1] and many states also have specific restraining order laws for stalking[2] and sexual assault.[3]

Restraining and personal protection order laws vary from one jurisdiction to another but all establish who can file for an order, what protection or relief a person can get from such an order, and how the order will be enforced.

When the abuser does something that the court has ordered him or her not to do, or refuses to do something the court has ordered him or her to do, that is a violation of the order. The victim can ask the police or the court, or both, depending on the violation, to enforce the order.

Yes, both search engines brought up Wikipedia first, and I REALIZE that Wiki is not exactly Westlaw,nor does it replace the expert opinion of an attorney practicing in the state under discussion.

But for all intents and purposes to the discussion here-it would seem like the terms "order of protection" and "restraining order" are essentially the same thing.

Now, I have a bit of fairly close contact with an instance of someone having a conviction on domestic violence charges-my erstwhile stepfather...and what concerned me and my siblings is that this man continued to retain possession of a handgun even though the conviction for DV made that unlawful. So, it seems that somewhere in this narrative there must have been a danger of a criminal conviction? Or is there perhaps a jurisdictional statute mandating that those who have been served with a restraining order lose their right to own a firearm?

But that is really not much directly related to feminism,but something in this claim that feminism is directly to blame for one posters' legal and domestic problems is not quite hanging together. I'm not accusing anybody of anything and indeed the poster may be himself the victim of some kind of legal double talk. Unfortunanately,as another poster observed,justice for all can unfortunately prove to actually be justice for those with the deeper pockets. And that SUCKS. But this is why we have Legal Aid, the ACLU,and other activist groups to try and level the playing field for those who are not possessed of deep pockets.

I see that dreamcatcher 39 has also made the same discovery I did and delved a bit deeper. And I agree, even though it may be tangental to the topic, it would be helpful to know what the distinction is in Texas. Perhaps we have a genuine issue that feminism has caused more (perceived or actual)harm to families and men in certain jurisdictions,and that might help us all have a deeper understanding of claims that feminism has been directly damaging to men. I don't know about anybody else, but that's MY interest here- greater understanding from all sides of the debate.
Cindy O
 verygreeneyez
Joined: 3/15/2006
Msg: 664
Feminism Your Views
Posted: 4/23/2012 4:53:56 PM

But for all intents and purposes to the discussion here-it would seem like the terms "order of protection" and "restraining order" are essentially the same thing.

You're right. Wiki is not Westlaw. There is one very important difference between TPOs, POs and Restraining Orders:

What is the difference between a protective order and a restraining order?
A protective order is enforceable by the police. This means that if someone violates a protective order, the police can be called to come immediately to help you be safe. The person violating the protective order can be arrested immediately and risks serving time in jail.

A restraining order is NOT enforceable by the police. If someone violates a restraining order, you have to go to court and ask a judge for a hearing to decide whether the person actually violated the restraining order.

Then you add Injunctions into the mix:

An injunction is an equitable remedy in the form of a court order that requires a party to do or refrain from doing specific acts. A party that fails to comply with an injunction faces criminal or civil penalties and may have to pay damages or accept sanctions. In some cases, breaches of injunctions are considered serious criminal offenses that merit arrest and possible prison sentences.

As for this pertaining to feminism, all I can say is that what you end up with when you receive any one of these "orders" is a false sense of security/safety and that's universal whether you're a man or a woman who obtains one of these. But that's just my opinion.
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