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Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > Feminism Your Views [under review]      Home login  
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 mrcs84
Joined: 12/9/2008
Msg: 826
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Feminism Your ViewsPage 34 of 44    (4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44)

But I don't know why that would be gender specific...women have to protect their assets as much as men these days.

It wouldn't be gender specific. However, it seems to be that women are more anti-prenup than men are. Regardless, that is why I kept the comment that you quoted gender neutral.


Actually, according to the stats, a man that gets divorced ends up better off financially than when he was married.

In the long run, at least. He still takes quite the hit early on. It's most likely to do more upward mobility at work because now the only person he needs to look out for is himself. He can downsize his living space if need be, travel more if the job requires it, has more reign of the financing of his money, among several other factors. It only makes sense if you ask me.
 ThinkinginCA
Joined: 4/14/2010
Msg: 827
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Posted: 5/22/2012 12:31:37 AM

It wouldn't be gender specific. However, it seems to be that women are more anti-prenup than men are. Regardless, that is why I kept the comment that you quoted gender neutral.



Really? Or maybe the just don't expect a contract for failure like men do? How could we know?


He still takes quite the hit early on. It's most likely to do more upward mobility at work because now the only person he needs to look out for is himself. He can downsize his living space if need be, travel more if the job requires it, has more reign of the financing of his money, among several other factors. It only makes sense if you ask me.


Exactly...see, we do agree on something. So I don't understand why they complain.
 Gertrude13
Joined: 5/14/2012
Msg: 828
Feminism Your Views
Posted: 5/22/2012 2:41:40 AM
"Most are also very happy to get a "severance package" to for "past services," male or female."
Really? What percentage is "most?". Do you have a source stating that divorced folk claim happiness with a "severance package?"

I'm certain that you are far more familiar with the emotions experienced by both men and women in divorce than, say, women and men who have actually lived through it, so we await your elucidation of our reactions with breathless anticipation!
 mrcs84
Joined: 12/9/2008
Msg: 829
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Posted: 5/22/2012 3:50:38 AM

Really? What percentage is "most?". Do you have a source stating that divorced folk claim happiness with a "severance package?"

I don't have a source, but I can't think of many reasons why people would -not- like to get thousands of dollars that they probably don't deserve.

Speaking of sources, when was the last time you provided a source for ANY of your obtuse analyses other than pure anecdote?


I'm certain that you are far more familiar with the emotions experienced by both men and women in divorce than, say, women and men who have actually lived through it, so we await your elucidation of our reactions with breathless anticipation!

*Snore*



Really? Or maybe the just don't expect a contract for failure like men do? How could we know?

Maybe they are "absolutely certain" that they will be different than all of the other millions of failed marriages. I'm sure they are just as hopeful as all those ex-wives and ex-husbands that said "i do" when they heard "til death do you part."
The reasoning behind why is rather moot, but the fact of the matter is that women are still less adamant about the whole prenuptial thing than men are.


So I don't understand why they complain.

*Facepalm*
 Gertrude13
Joined: 5/14/2012
Msg: 830
Feminism Your Views
Posted: 5/22/2012 6:40:42 AM
^^^lol! I bow to your vast wisdom, accumulated through your life experience and, I am certain, rigorous formalized education. You are absolutely correct! All women are gold diggers, flashing cleavage to get ahead, expecting special treatment. And anyone who accepts the label of feminist is definitely a baby-killing lesbian! With hairy armpits.

If you read the op, you will see that he asked what feminism means to us personally. I googled my views on the subject, but came up empty. Mea culpa, buddy! I will make certain I am able to cite sources for all of my personal views and experiences in the future!

And...jumping into a thread, pulling a quote out of context, harping on something completely off topic and snarking at strangers...boy. That was a TERRIBLE thing for me to do! I am sore ashamed...

Please accept my most heartfelt apologies, and my apologies for all the other ball busting diesel dykes out there!
 mrcs84
Joined: 12/9/2008
Msg: 831
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Posted: 5/22/2012 6:53:40 AM

^^^lol! I bow to your vast wisdom, accumulated through your life experience and, I am certain, rigorous formalized education. You are absolutely correct! All women are gold diggers, flashing cleavage to get ahead, expecting special treatment. And anyone who accepts the label of feminist is definitely a baby-killing lesbian! With hairy armpits.

If you read the op, you will see that he asked what feminism means to us personally. I googled my views on the subject, but came up empty. Mea culpa, buddy! I will make certain I am able to cite sources for all of my personal views and experiences in the future!

And...jumping into a thread, pulling a quote out of context, harping on something completely off topic and snarking at strangers...boy. That was a TERRIBLE thing for me to do! I am sore ashamed...

Please accept my most heartfelt apologies, and my apologies for all the other ball busting diesel dykes out there!


Hey look, I'm post number 1000. Hooyah!!


Now back to your regularly scheduled programming.
 unYOUsual
Joined: 8/11/2011
Msg: 832
Feminism Your Views
Posted: 5/22/2012 7:08:27 AM
You cant blame people for not cojuring up your image of Feminism..unfortunately Miltant Feminist whined the loudest so they got the most attention ..the hairy underarm lesbian man hating ball busting radicals destroyed your messaging...
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 833
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Feminism Your Views
Posted: 5/22/2012 7:50:38 AM
Gertrude and Thinkin...I appreciate your efforts at restraint when discussing the issue with misogynists, but remember, it's a lot like wrestling with pigs...The pig likes it and you both end up dirty.

Once you realize where the misogyny comes from, you might be gentler and humor the poor, poor, rejected damaged goods who take it out on feminism and women in general. This is a good piece, written by a man, on the origins of male misogyny and the problem of the self-perpetuating negative feedback loop that it become.
http://www.feministezine.com/feminist/malefeminism/The-Origins-Causes-of-Misogyny.html
 Gertrude13
Joined: 5/14/2012
Msg: 834
Feminism Your Views
Posted: 5/22/2012 8:36:22 AM
Thanks, earthpuppy!

Some men have been hurt by women. It's natural to assign the characteristics of the ones who damaged you to an entire population - to blame a movement for the actions of an individual. If we try to state our case, it might not be heard, but sometimes you gotta tilt at them windmills...and it IS wrong for any human, male or female, to mete out the treatment some women have. Failing to acknowledge than just isn't right...

Of course, some are just trolls, and no one takes them seriously, anyway.=D
 FixedVariable
Joined: 10/17/2010
Msg: 835
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Posted: 5/22/2012 8:42:56 AM

I don't want MY children or MY grandchildren either male or female to constantly hear from one gender or the other how they are not needed their entire lives. Can you understand this? All I've heard from women nearly my entire life is how they don't need a man. As a man how do you think this can affect someone?


I completely get your point.

When I take into account how many men on this site complain and **** about how women use them, I've always felt like I was distinguishing myself as the type of woman who would NOT use a man. It never really occurred to me that reading or hearing women say they don't NEED a man was being received in a context that maybe implies to the guys that women feel men are unnecessary or useless.

When I've said I didn't NEED a man, that was never EVER my intent. My intent was to try and assure any potential mates that I had no inclinations to bleed them dry emotionally or financially. Most of the decent women here would certainly want you to know that we are not the type of users and opportunists that many of you have had the misfortunes of dealing with in the past.

I've always thought it would be preferable (to men and to myself) to be with a guy I very very much WANTED to be with as opposed to NEEDED to be with.

It just goes to show us that whatever we do or say, we're upsetting someone. Generally, it is unintentional.
 Gertrude13
Joined: 5/14/2012
Msg: 836
Feminism Your Views
Posted: 5/22/2012 8:54:49 AM
^^^beautifully stated!

When I say I don't need a man, it means that I can get by without one. Partnership with the right one would enrich my life, but I wouldn't just grab onto the first one that happens by because I want him for his wallet or hammer. However, I can see why that statement would sound to some as if the woman considers all males to be fripperies, inconsequential and small. So of course that would be offensive if interpreted in that light.

Thanks for clarifying:)
 Capn_America
Joined: 10/6/2011
Msg: 837
Feminism Your Views
Posted: 5/22/2012 9:21:02 AM
From a man trying to be all the father he can to a son who was a better son than a father deserved. I wish and hope you can find some positive male role models to learn from.


You know, I give up trying to follow up on what has been posted in the 4 days since I been gone LOL.
What I will say is I fell on this sentence. 1ukn4u, that is a GORGEOUS phrase, very touching, and VERY well said. It's heartwarming to see stuff like that get told about our kids, in my book. I feel the same way about my daughters, GOD, do they rock. Kudos to you


The pig likes it and you both end up dirty.


Oh, and if I might tergiverse here...I wouldn't mind at ALL a lil mudwrestling the pig if it gets Gertrude's attention. Or wrestling Gertrude in the mud without the pig. Or roasting the pig while I wrestle alone in the mud to get Gertrude's attention....anyway you want it really, as long as I get Gertrude's attention :wink:

:devil:


Crappy links to emoticons don't work when you update your posts LOL. Whatever, you get the idea.
 Balsamica
Joined: 2/24/2012
Msg: 838
Feminism Your Views
Posted: 5/22/2012 10:45:26 AM
"""It never really occurred to me that reading or hearing women say they don't NEED a man was being received in a context that maybe implies to the guys that women feel men are unnecessary or useless.""

You don't get it. For the original lesbian feminists of the 60's, men WERE useless and unnecessary and they saw to it that women were conditioned to think that way. The divorce laws and custody, support, taxes, etc. are all intended to DISPLACE men as heads of households and REPLACE it with women to try to establish a matriarchy. It is women who have made the wholesale abandonment of husbands and families, not men.

The media and the business world jumped right on board because now it was two couches to sell instead of one, two refrigerators instead of one, two of everything instead of one. Two income families found themselves flush with cash, but prices went up soon enough and the wave of consumerism and spending hasn't stopped since.
 FixedVariable
Joined: 10/17/2010
Msg: 839
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Posted: 5/22/2012 10:54:13 AM

You don't get it. For the original lesbian feminists of the 60's, men WERE useless and unnecessary and they saw to it that women were conditioned to think that way.


Well obviously that conditioning didn't work on me. I wasn't referencing ANYthing you said, so not only do I probably not get anything you've stated, I've mostly avoided your comments like the plague because you seem to only want to rant as opposed to discussing anything.
 trinity818
Joined: 9/1/2006
Msg: 840
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Posted: 5/22/2012 12:28:41 PM

I was introduced to feminism by my mom, a farm wife who considered her invisibility, subservience and destiny, too much to bear in her marriage with my dad. He handled the money, she could not pay into SS, have her own back account, and was expected to stay in the house and take care of the kids.


This describes my mother as well. She was motivated by fear to get involved in feminism. Sadly though, she never really got over the trauma of her marriage and subsequent abuse.
 Capn_America
Joined: 10/6/2011
Msg: 841
Feminism Your Views
Posted: 5/22/2012 12:36:47 PM

"""It never really occurred to me that reading or hearing women say they don't NEED a man was being received in a context that maybe implies to the guys that women feel men are unnecessary or useless.""



Without ranting myself at all, Fixed Variable, I'd like to say there is a lot of truth in what he says on this. However, this is a minority of women who want to install a dictature of Women who enslave the Male race and rape them every 9 months to make babies (Très Amazons, no? ) so they can perpetuate the circle.
Personnally when I hear a woman talk this way, I get the message. Except when said ina certain tone that suggest contempt, in the sense that men in general are not worth the time spent, in which case I figure she really DOESNT need me, and leave the table LOL.

But hey, since were all on a dating site, Ifigure no crazy Feminist like that is here. Else...wasting her time, no?
 FixedVariable
Joined: 10/17/2010
Msg: 842
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Posted: 5/22/2012 1:12:12 PM

Personnally when I hear a woman talk this way, I get the message. Except when said ina certain tone that suggest contempt, in the sense that men in general are not worth the time spent, in which case I figure she really DOESNT need me, and leave the table LOL.


I assume you're referring to the point of 1ukn4u, who I quoted and responded to and not the second guy, right?

I really thought a man would prefer being wanted over being needed, but I guess the message gets f*cked up.

As I mentioned in response to 1ukn4u's point, when I say it to men (on here specifically, anyway) my intent is to shout out "Hey, I wouldn't use and abuse you!" and not to make them feel useless. Until 1ukn4u said what he hears when women say they don't need men, I had no idea men took it that way.

I like men. Sometimes I like specific men a LOT and I want the one's who might like me back to know that I don't use men.

I know I've talked about this want vs. need thing before. Perhaps in this thread even. I recall a few men responding a little sourly to the idea and I couldn't understand why at the time. It makes more sense now.
 Capn_America
Joined: 10/6/2011
Msg: 843
Feminism Your Views
Posted: 5/22/2012 1:18:52 PM

know I've talked about this want vs. need thing before. Perhaps in this thread even. I recall a few men responding a little sourly to the idea and I couldn't understand why at the time. It makes more sense now.


Who knows LOL. Web world is a big make belief world anyways. A lot of words, a lot of trolls, a lot of nonsense. I think out there it makes a lot more sense, when you have a physical human being to see and talk to. A lot of people don't respect that and twist written words anyway they want. I remember a time when web-i-quette was a lot better than it is now, but that time is past.
There are still some men out there who hear it that way however, I think it has a lot to do with how, and when, and the way it's said. Some women truly do believe men are useless. Thankfully, you can USUALLY feel them pretty quick, and move on to someone else who doesn't think like that. Same fact with men who view women as objects, or as inferior beings. It still exists, but its not a majority at all. Again, you move on.

So now you know. And, as the cartoon said:"Knowing is half the battle"
 ThinkinginCA
Joined: 4/14/2010
Msg: 844
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Posted: 5/22/2012 1:36:15 PM

You don't get it. For the original lesbian feminists of the 60's, men WERE useless and unnecessary and they saw to it that women were conditioned to think that way. The divorce laws and custody, support, taxes, etc. are all intended to DISPLACE men as heads of households and REPLACE it with women to try to establish a matriarchy. It is women who have made the wholesale abandonment of husbands and families, not men.



You know Balsamica, I 've read other posts by you, and frankly I'm a little surprised that you seem to be the on that doesn't get it....no offense intended. This is like me listening to Rush Limbaugh an concluding that all men think that way about women. There are those who go all militant trying to get their point across because they are being ignored...that's pretty much what activists do.

Are you implying that women of the 50's had nothing to complain about of their lot in life? That they had equal rights and should not be going and wanting more than just being a satisfied homemaker taking care of her family? Not everyone is going to want what feminism brought, but the point is, it gave women choice to decide how they wanted to live their lives, and gave them access to do just that. The courts changed with the time, so please tell me what specific about the current laws you think are unfair so we can discuss that. I'm open to seeing your view if it wasn't so one dimensional.


The media and the business world jumped right on board because now it was two couches to sell instead of one, two refrigerators instead of one, two of everything instead of one. Two income families found themselves flush with cash, but prices went up soon enough and the wave of consumerism and spending hasn't stopped since.


Surely, you aren't blaming women for this, right?
 Welsh474
Joined: 9/13/2010
Msg: 845
Feminism Your Views
Posted: 5/22/2012 1:39:40 PM
""I was introduced to feminism by my mom, ..."".

I was introduced to "feminism" (if you can call it that) by my Dad. My Dad told my sister and I to be want we wanted to be, chose a career we enjoyed and to not accept anything less than what my brothers had or could have. That was my first experience - equality and fairness for all. And that was in the 60's.

As for radical, lesbian feminists - geez, gone why the wayside. The majority of posters on this thread probably don't know why, when or where all this feminist stuff started. I'd like to know how feminism has personally effected the 27 year old guy or even the 33 year old guy other than they were probably raised by a smarter mother who was out in the work force providing for him and his siblings in a more just and fair workplace.

As for the inequities of child custody, I understand that and have empathy. If you want change you must work for change - it's the old "if you're not part of the solution, you are part of the problem". Nobody got anything done by sitting on their ass and b!tching. You would be surprised as to how many of us women support change and would march beside you to see that change take place.

Again, I applaud the men (and women) who are raising children on their own. I know how tough it was in a two parent family. Hang in there, the rewards are greater than the losses.

And as for the "need" or "want" a man - I'm pretty self sufficient but I tell you what, my life has been enriched beyond belief by every single man I've known - from my father, husband, brothers, sons and friends. I want and need a man in my life and cherish the men that are already in it. That is called being a human being.
 Capn_America
Joined: 10/6/2011
Msg: 846
Feminism Your Views
Posted: 5/22/2012 1:45:36 PM

The media and the business world jumped right on board because now it was two couches to sell instead of one, two refrigerators instead of one, two of everything instead of one. Two income families found themselves flush with cash, but prices went up soon enough and the wave of consumerism and spending hasn't stopped since.


Surely, you aren't blaming women for this, right?


If I might interrupt; There's no blaming women for this at all. It was a logical step for Feminism, but I am blaming some women of the Feminist movement, the media, society in general, for contributing for the continuing DIFFERENCEs and conflicts between men and women today.
There's a minority, a very REAL minority but minority nontheless, of women who are not being treated equally. Compared to that, and this is gettinglaughed at, there is another growing minority of men who are also being mistreated, BY women, but that is okay. Because the whole idea of Feminism as a movement(well, the crazy Feminists, not MOST of them, but those in power today) is to make evil men pay, and to make a matriarcal type of society. By constantly reminding women that they ARE women, as such have been mistreated by men for centuries and they are ENTITLED to being better than men...your just fueling the fire. Your fueling conflict, making one group think they are superior to the other, when the whole pointof feminism, and the whole of womankind I think, save a few exceptions, was to make women equal to men.
But that is NOT the diehard Feminist's objective.
And true enough, anyone who had any cash to make contributes to the whole thing. Which is why the practice of marriage and religious values is highly discouraged in modern day USA. I wouldnt be surprised if you guys eventually changed the "In God We Trust" part of the nationnal whatchammacallit (sorry, I'm Canadian LOL) by something else, in the same way they want to change the nationnal Anthem of France because it's "too bloody". Nevermind that it's culturally significant and a symbol of the French Revolution.....
All this because it hurts the feelings of certain groups. And there's money to be made, the marketing of the new anthem, etc.
I don't think women have any thing to blame for liberating themselves. I do think certain women go to far in their quest for vengeance against the male species.It's not really ethical at all, yet we see it all the time, and the media, our governements, society as a whole, say nothing. Because it's "politically correct" to put a woman over a man, just like it's more politically correct (In canada anyways, I think you guys in the states have a lot less issues with that) to put a Black man over a Caucasian man. Which it shouldnt be; it should be based on value as a person, not value as a racial group.
 --Zen--
Joined: 6/29/2011
Msg: 847
Feminism Your Views
Posted: 5/22/2012 2:16:57 PM
For me, "need" implies that the person cannot function without the other.

Are you implying you can function in a society with no men? I find that amusing if so. On a personal level need for opposite sex is essential and only second to basic needs such as survival. 'I don't need a man' is the most self depriving delusion that stems from lack of realization or knowledge of sexual attraction. On most basic level mutual need and codependency between genders exist to raise young. Sexual dimorphism, gender roles, cultural standards serve to highlight the differences for the basic purpose of attraction. Task or object it self, unless it's a fetish does not define sexuality it can only emphasize it. Gender specific tasks, objects and mannerisms are designed to highlight own sexual identity. A need to stand apart, attract and at the same time signify the need for opposite sex.
I will not address mundane subject of relationship between codependency and current society since it has been covered many times in this thread.


But you should understand that the "modern" woman may enjoy dressing up occasionally, because she likes feeling attractive.

Oh I understand that very well and it is the key point to our little discussion. It is a need to feel attractive to opposite sex that perpetuates ideals and standards. Genders conform knowingly or unknowingly to what opposite sex find attractive. It is always mutual and interdependent adaptation. Feminist ideology seeks to blur gender lines and deify social concepts of attraction. Attraction cannot be forced and this is why feminism is physiologically damaging. It redefines and helps shape gender identity. A strong, modern woman is deprived of innate femininity and because of interdependency men are forced to abandon masculine traits. It is pointless to ignore classic models of attraction and romance.


Btw - my hair is quite long, but this is only because long hair is much less trouble than a coif that requires a bunch of product and salon trips to keep tidy. Long hair is low maintenance. And I like to wear heels sometimes because I'm six feet tall in my spikes, and it's interesting to view the world from that lofty height from time to time.

Amusing. I recall having long hair at young age and maintenance was infuriating. At current length my hair require only water, shampoo and a towel.
May I suggest stilts if your only purpose to wear high hills is to view world from above.
 FixedVariable
Joined: 10/17/2010
Msg: 848
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Feminism Your Views
Posted: 5/22/2012 2:39:10 PM

If your the kind that wouldn't use a man why not simply say something else? Like I'm simply not a user or abuser.


Because honestly, I really don't think many men who've been treated badly by women would believe that.
 ThinkinginCA
Joined: 4/14/2010
Msg: 849
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Posted: 5/22/2012 2:54:28 PM

Are you implying you can function in a society with no men? I find that amusing if so. On a personal level need for opposite sex is essential and only second to basic needs such as survival. 'I don't need a man' is the most self depriving delusion that stems from lack of realization or knowledge of sexual attraction. On most basic level mutual need and codependency between genders exist to raise young.


I don't think she implied that at all, but I'll let her explain. There is a great book published recently called "Going Solo", I haven't started reading it yet as I just got it, but it posits that single households are growing. This is not single parent households, but rather people that have decided not to marry, find no reason for doing so. It's a state they find to be preferrable to coupling....and the major reason for divorced couples to stay single is that they find bieng married to someone they don't love is worse than living single. I get that completely. It also posits, the ability to live single is a luxury that was not available to people previously...a condition created by growing wealth in general for both men and women.

You can say being upwardly mobile is what caused the breakdown of the traditional marriage. And the truth is, hardly anyone believes they should have to stay in a loveless marriage, and that's a good thing. But it's one of those things that you actually have to suffer before you appreciate it. I know for me, being single is preferred to coupling with a man that doesn't have all the characterics I want...and I'm sure for many there are degrees of this preference.


It is a need to feel attractive to opposite sex that perpetuates ideals and standards. Genders conform knowingly or unknowingly to what opposite sex find attractive. It is always mutual and interdependent adaptation.


This is a lot more trickier than it looks on the outside. Why do women buy outrageusly priced designer cloths that men often can't appreciate? I don't think it's always something to impress just the men, but whole society in general that one is better off. Of course, it takes shape of gender attraction with the images we are bombarded with....having ideals that 90% (or maybe more, it's subjective) of the people can't possibly fulfill. Example is a woman that wants big breasts even if her husband/boyfriend is not that impressed by breast implants...she's been conditioned to believe that she is attractive if she has big breasts...can't blame men in her life for her beliefs.


Amusing. I recall having long hair at young age and maintenance was infuriating.


This one's easy, since I finally got my hair to grow for several years after cutting it really short. Short hairstyles on men and women are not even close to being the same. For most women, it is not short as in 1/2" short, but rather 3" or longer type of short and it often takes much longer to get the "style" that's in. Men never had to worry in the same mannner....except maybe in the 80's.
 Gertrude13
Joined: 5/14/2012
Msg: 850
Feminism Your Views
Posted: 5/22/2012 3:35:21 PM

I don't think she implied that at all, but I'll let her explain.


Thanks, thinkin! However, the original statement was fairly clear, and I'm certain that any attempt at clarification would incur the same stretching misinterpretation...

It is a very interesting thought, though...

A feminist might claim that she does not "need" a man in the most literal sense (leaving out the emotional/want piece) because there was a time when we literally could not get by without a man's protection, especially if we had children. Why do you think there were homes for "widows and orphans?"

Because of this, women were forced to remain in marriages where they were abused. Entering the workplace has been a mixed blessing - I certainly wish I'd had the option of staying home with my kids more when they were little - but without it, there was no escape, and this may be the underlying reason why some feminists use this as their mantra...

Then the pendulum swung the other way, or at least that appears to be the case reading some of the posts from divorced men...women could leave a marriage easily, not just in cases of infidelity or abuse. The measures put in place to protect women and children (sort of) wound up ruining men financially, depriving children of their fathers - and so begins the backlash...

Men are often marginalized, it's true. Because some of them do not fulfill the "traditional male" responsibilities at all, women have had to learn to do all the things that used to make men indispensable. It really isn't quite fair to the men who try to do the right thing when I push them aside impatiently, figuring I can get the grass cut faster by myself.. I'd probably be offended in the same situation.

Communication between the genders is complicated at best, and when perspective is colored by past hurts and blatant manipulation by politicians, it becomes even more so. Which is likely why threads about feminism so frequently turn into slugfests. Truly unfortunate on a dating site!=D
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