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 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 319
George Zimmerman (watchguard) is in FBI custody!Page 9 of 31    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31)
Well, that's where his defence comes in. But it will be up to Mr. Zimmerman and his lawyers to try to convince a jury of that. If Mr. Zimmerman sat in court and didn't say anything, as the post I was responding to suggested, then he would be convicted. The bare facts of the case are damning - and sparked the public outrage a month after the killing when it was clear nothing was going to be done.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 321
George Zimmerman (watchguard) is in FBI custody!
Posted: 4/25/2012 12:22:32 PM
I'm kind of beating my head against a brick wall here.

If you kill someone, it's up to you to prove that you were acting in self defence. If the facts of the case are: dead child; man with gun; bullet from gun killed child, then the man with the gun has to prove he acted in self defence. I have no idea why you keep bringing up British Common Law - it's against your argument. If the bare facts indicate a crime, then the person who committed the act has to prove justification.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 324
George Zimmerman (watchguard) is in FBI custody!
Posted: 4/25/2012 1:38:07 PM

They don't need to spend a lot of time looking for evidence??????? Sounds to me like you have hit your head a few too many times against a brick wall to make that statement. You are from another country right?

Seriously? You're going to impugn everything I say because I asserted that there's not going to be an extensive investigation required?

They know who the victim is; they know who the shooter is; they know what the weapon is. That's pretty much 90% of any case right there. My post was in reference to a speedy trial post. I was saying that there is no impediment to a speedy trial.

They have all the evidence they will be presenting.

You might not want to be trying to be so nit picky. Or take things out of context. People might think you're a douche.
 rpl55
Joined: 3/22/2009
Msg: 326
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George Zimmerman (watchguard) is in FBI custody!
Posted: 4/25/2012 2:00:55 PM
HalftimeDad said:


Self defence is an affirmative defence. It's up to Zimmerman to prove that he was acting in self defence


PGL7 said:


It's up to Zimmerman to prove... I thought it was innocent until proven guilty?
In fact it is the prosecutions burden to prove guilt otherwise known as "Presumption of Innocence."


Sciencetreker said:


hint...the defense needs 'to prove' zilch. Nada. Nil. Zip. The defense has to do nothing. The defendendent need not utter a word. Need not take the stand. He can sleep through the triil...it's his FUNDAMENTAL right.

It's 100% the role of the prosecution 'to prove' guilt. Nobody has to prove they are innocent.



PGL7 and Sciencetreker, do you know what a "rebuttable presumption" is, under the law? If not, you have no business pretending to understand the law and, specifically, trial law. HalftimeDad is completely correct on this issue.

An example:

A married man has a pregnant wife. The man swears that the child is not his. He leaves his wife, files for divorce, and refuses to pay child support. The husband assumes that -

"...the defense needs 'to prove' zilch. Nada. Nil. Zip. The defense has to do nothing. The defendendent need not utter a word. Need not take the stand. He can sleep through the triil...it's his FUNDAMENTAL right.
"

Ooops! The husband forgot about rebuttable presumptions. The law always presumes that the father of the child is the husband. Yep, that's right. The husband must 'rebut' the presumption that he is the father, or he will be legally held to be the father, and bound for life. He must prove that he is NOT the father, usually by DNA testing..

I assume that there is a rebuttable presumption that a civilian, standing over a dead person in a public place while holding a gun, has unlawfully killed that person. That may well be the key to this case - but neither you nor I know the ins and outs of Florida trial law, or what, if any, rebuttable presumptions adhere in this particular case.

RPL
 rpl55
Joined: 3/22/2009
Msg: 327
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History
George Zimmerman (watchguard) is in FBI custody!
Posted: 4/25/2012 2:55:45 PM
Sciencetreker said:


Nope. You have it wrong . You are confusing criminal law with liability. No male is declared 'guilty' of impregnating a woman...he is liable for his obligations to society.


I am not confusing anything, though I did use a civil case as an example - here's a criminal law "rebuttable presumption" for you.

If you are caught having sex with an underage child, the legal presumption is that you were aware of the child's age, and are thereby guilty of rape. If you sit silently at trial and offer no evidence to the contrary, you WILL be found guilty of rape, 100% of the time.

In effect, rebuttable presumptions in criminal law often reverse the burden of proof and place it on the defendant. They are somewhat controversial, but they are very common. As stated above, we don't know what rebuttable presumptions are in effect in Florida law, so we can't say for sure what the outcome of the case will be.

RPL
 OutofControlMan
Joined: 12/22/2011
Msg: 328
George Zimmerman (watchguard) is in FBI custody!
Posted: 4/25/2012 3:07:55 PM
Tax law also typically uses many rebuttable assumptions. (in USA, Canada, and elsewhere) If you have income and do NOT declare it, the PRESUMPTION is that you are guilty of criminal tax evasion.

you would have to PROVE that you did NOT intend to evade paying taxes to be acquitted of tax evasion charges
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 329
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George Zimmerman (watchguard) is in FBI custody!
Posted: 4/25/2012 7:11:02 PM
Proving someone guilty of murder or some other unlawful killing is intertwined with justifying it as self-defense. This is about things they teach in advanced evidence, especially burden of proof and presumption of innocence in criminal trials.

There is a (somewhat wavering) line of Supreme Court cases on various aspects of this question. Anyone who has insomnia but doesn't want to take medication may want to delve into In re Winship, Mullaney v. Wilbur, Patterson v. New York, and Martin v. Ohio. Or, if you want to figure out their twists and turns, plan on a few pots of coffee and some serious head-scratching.

Self-defense is an affirmative defense, like insanity. The defendant is acknowledging that he committed the act as charged, but is offering a justification that makes that act lawful. The prosecution first has to prove each and every element of the crime beyond a reasonable doubt. In common law, the burden was then on the defendant to show, by a preponderance of the evidence (i.e. more likely than not) that he acted in self-defense. If he could, the jury had to find him not guilty.

Even in the Seventies, only two states, Ohio and South Carolina, still followed this common law rule. The rest had shifted the burden of disproving the defendant's claim of self-defense to the state. I have no idea what the Florida cases say about all this. But it's a good guess the prosecution will need to prove Zimmerman guilty beyond a reasonable doubt of murder, and also prove--just by a preponderance--? that he did not act in self-defense.

If so, the prosecutors have their work cut out for them. I have a hunch it may be very hard to prove the intent even second-degree murder requires, if Florida's law is typical. Just intending to harass or intimidate someone wouldn't be enough.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 332
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George Zimmerman (watchguard) is in FBI custody!
Posted: 4/25/2012 10:55:55 PM

No, there is no burden of proof on the defendent to prove anything. Not self defense or anything else.


That depends on the state law involved. A state is free to follow the common law rule that requires defendants to prove self-defense as an affirmative defense to murder. The Ohio Supreme Court upheld the murder conviction of Earline Martin, who had shot and killed her husband Walter with his revolver after they argued about grocery money. It held that Mrs. Martin had failed to prove she acted in self-defense. The Supreme Court of the U.S. agreed that her conviction did not violate the 14th Amendment's Due Process Clause.

"The Supreme Court of Ohio affirmed the conviction. [It] rejected the constitutional challenge to the [jury] instruction requiring petitioner to prove self-defense. We . . . affirm the decision of the Supreme Court of Ohio.

. . . . . . . . .

The State . . . did not seek to shift to Martin the burden of proving any of those elements [of the crime of murder], and the jury's verdict reflects that none of her self-defense evidence raised a reasonable doubt about the State's proof that she purposefully killed with prior calculation and design. She nevertheless had the opportunity under state law and the instructions given to justify the killing and show herself to be blameless by proving that she acted in self-defense. The jury thought she had failed to do so, and Ohio is as entitled to punish Martin as one guilty of murder . . . .

. . . . . . . . .

We are no more convinced that the Ohio practice of requiring self-defense to be proved by the defendant is unconstitutional than we are that the Constitution requires the prosecution to prove the sanity of a defendant who pleads not guilty by reason of insanity."

Martin v. Ohio, 480 U.S. 228 (1987).
 vlad dracul
Joined: 4/30/2009
Msg: 335
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George Zimmerman (watchguard) is in FBI custody!
Posted: 4/26/2012 12:02:31 AM
pgl

i think its too late to stop the racial violence although the laddies parents asking
for calm is commendable.

white folks are already being beaten up in revenge attacks are they not? i put
a couple of examples in an earlier post.

have the wind bags who are shouting about race all the time on here (and elsewhere)
condemned these attacks on innocent white folks?

funny zimmerman is always refered to as half white half hispanic but only whites
get attacked. something else the wind bags choose to ignore,

it would be most unfortunate if one of the wind bags was on the recievung end
of a beating. but they live in nice leafy white safe areas in the most.

nice day for it
 Worbug
Joined: 4/23/2009
Msg: 336
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George Zimmerman (watchguard) is in FBI custody!
Posted: 4/26/2012 7:25:05 AM
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/04/26/suspect-attacked-white-teen-because-am-angry-about-trayvon/

When they lawsuit comes to be later, I think Jessie Jackson, Al Sharpton, and the media personnel responsible for altering the facts in order to orchestrate a race war should be named and held accountable.
 OutofControlMan
Joined: 12/22/2011
Msg: 337
George Zimmerman (watchguard) is in FBI custody!
Posted: 4/26/2012 9:04:47 AM

No, there is no burden of proof on the defendent to prove anything. Not self defense or anything else. The burden is 100% on the state to prove the defendant is guilty. The defendent participating is completely arbitrary. He need not speak to authoritiues...he need not have a lawyer..he need not take the stand. The judge will instruct the jury to determine if the evidence presented by the state is 'beyond a reasonable doubt' for a verdict of guilty. If a defendent chooses to not defend himself the judge will instruct the jury that his the right of the defendent and that it in no way should influence their decision as to whether or not the state has proved it's case.


yes, that's what they teach in civics class, but reality can be a little different. Just TRY getting charged with a capital offense & doing as you say -nothing- have you ever had that experience?

there have been cases where the state convicts based SOLELY on circumstantial evidence, e.g someone is dead, the defendant had motive to kill them and opportunity. but there is NO direct link proving s/he did it -no DNA, fingerprints, witnesses, etc.

you are seen arguing with a person, an hour later that person is found dead, no -one SAW you kill them, no DNA, no fingerprints, no blood, no direct evidence -->good luck beating that charge. (by being silent ? ) lol

I bet according to you the defendant doesn't even have to appear in court or stay in jail if bail is denied? can just walk out since he i s 'presumed innocent until proven guilty" ? can tell the judge to suck his Big One since he is presumed innocent? LOL . bet he can take a dump in the court pew because he is presumed innocent right, take his D1ck out & tell the judge to suck it? . because your wonderful law says he is presumed Innocent of course!
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 340
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George Zimmerman (watchguard) is in FBI custody!
Posted: 4/26/2012 9:53:47 AM

bet he can take a dump in the court pew because he is presumed innocent right, take his D1ck out & tell the judge to suck it? . because your wonderful law says he is presumed Innocent of course!


That's quite a colorful scene you paint. I doubt that a defendant who was foolish enough to do those things in front of the jurors would make many of them more sympathetic to him. But that wouldn't change what the jury was instructed about proving his guilt.

Just the fact a defendant has been brought into court is likely to make jurors wonder what he's done to deserve it. Or when he doesn't take the stand and deny the charges, they may take it as a sign of guilt. But the fact jurors are not perfectly rational doesn't mean criminals don't get justice in the U.S.
 Worbug
Joined: 4/23/2009
Msg: 341
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George Zimmerman (watchguard) is in FBI custody!
Posted: 4/26/2012 10:08:57 AM
Strange how quickly everyone is do dismiss the race issue of the black on white beatings in the name of Treyvon when it was stated out loud by the black attackers, yet with Zimmerman, racism is assumed the core of the situation.

I am all for the trial, but all the Grand Standing is too much and one sided.
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 342
George Zimmerman (watchguard) is in FBI custody!
Posted: 4/26/2012 10:37:26 AM

I am all for the trial, but all the Grand Standing is too much and one sided.


That's the same feeling I get when I watch the coverage of this issue on the Fox News channel, or listening to the Wall Street Journal News when driving in the morning.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 343
George Zimmerman (watchguard) is in FBI custody!
Posted: 4/26/2012 10:59:02 AM

Strange how quickly everyone is do dismiss the race issue of the black on white beatings in the name of Treyvon when it was stated out loud by the black attackers...

I don't see how you come to this conclusion here. It looks as though you are projecting your preconceived notions onto the views of other posters. Racial bigotry is not unique to white people (or half-white), and I don't know of anyone who says otherwise.


Matchlight, what are your thoughts on the claims here of this going to trial because of political pressure? Can someone validly claim that there isn't enough evidence to convict?
 vlad dracul
Joined: 4/30/2009
Msg: 344
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George Zimmerman (watchguard) is in FBI custody!
Posted: 4/26/2012 12:01:56 PM
well oy

why do the attacks on whites not register or are deemed not worthy of recognition
then? both you and i know that attacks against whites are body swerved by your lot.
dont do yourself a disservice by claiming otherwise.

even your post could not say attacks against whites were wrong, only that attacks
went both ways. you bottled out on an answer in my eyes mate. we all know whites attack
blacks. but your side cant mention black on white attacks without answering as you did.

thats a bottle job.

all those on here talking trayvon this and trayvon that, they couldnt give a donald duck
about the laddie. do you remember the first thread? the one where 'your' side thought
zimmerman was white?

it was pc liberal porn with the excitement, except zimmerman isnt white. any white racist
would hate him for being half hispanic

be honest at least and admit that youse got sidestepped by zimmerman not being white.

then we have the gob shites who lol 'work in dangerous neighbourhoods' lol aye and then
fvck off home to nice leafy white areas.

where you live you must be one of the few, the very very few who live in dodgy areas. the
ist, ism and ophobias fly out from your side of political views. but those who spout them
never ever live in that dodgy area eh?

now lets see who condenms the attacks on white folk done in martins name. because i think
it will be a long time till they do.

unless they mention white on black at the same time, even although zimmerman is not white

lol c'mon hand wringers give us a laugh
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 346
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George Zimmerman (watchguard) is in FBI custody!
Posted: 4/26/2012 1:26:30 PM

Matchlight, what are your thoughts on the claims here of this going to trial because of political pressure? Can someone validly claim that there isn't enough evidence to convict?


I don't know all the details of this, because I haven't followed it that closely. But I think this president has done a lot to politicize it, including sending out one cabinet official after another to fawn over Al Sharpton, whose race-baiting years ago caused the deaths of at least two innocent men. And who more fitting to shake his hand than Mr. Eric Holder, who earned his promotion from assistant by his willingness to wade neck-deep in the slime to work out the details of Mr. Clinton's eleventh-hour pardons of Marc Rich and the Puerto Rican terrorists.

No one knows just how the FBI or other federal agencies have been pressured to intervene, but I'm sure they have been. It wouldn't surprise me to find out pressure was subtly applied to the Florida AG's office too--I'm sure it wouldn't want whatever federal funds it receives jeopardized.

It's pretty clear the special prosecutor overcharged Zimmerman, by a lot. There are special ethical requirements for prosecutors, and overcharging to coerce a plea to a lesser charge is verboten. Unless there's some evidence no one's seen, it will be hard to prove the intent required for murder. Zimmerman can use evidence that he acted in self-defense to try to raise a reasonable doubt about that, and it doesn't take much.

A juror can always decide the evidence wasn't good enough to convict the defendant. It's just his judgment, and not a claim he has to show was valid. The jurors who voted to acquit O.J. Simpson of murder are a case in point.
 vlad dracul
Joined: 4/30/2009
Msg: 347
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George Zimmerman (watchguard) is in FBI custody!
Posted: 4/26/2012 1:47:39 PM
cheers oy

this is my last post as im only allowed 5 per day

go back to page 1 mate. see who mentions race first.

as for making the thread about race look to some posters from the new american
state of canada. im sure you will agree they get a tad upset about american issues?

yep i tend to generalise mate. im not educated so i tend to let rip
and no think before i do.

but some of the 'educated' are just as divvy

yep a 28 year old man was armed with a gun. but the fact is on the 1st zimmerman thread that was
deleted certain folk assumed he was white. that was the main basis for their argument

i wasnt having a pop at you mate. i said youse. maybe lost in translation but youse means
all who have your view on things, not you in particular

i cant see a reason for sides either but go back to page 1 and read the first few posts

anyway its coffin time here so have a nice day and be lucky
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 348
George Zimmerman (watchguard) is in FBI custody!
Posted: 4/26/2012 1:56:40 PM
all those on here talking trayvon this and trayvon that, they couldnt give a donald duck
about the laddie. do you remember the first thread? the one where 'your' side thought
zimmerman was white?

it was pc liberal porn with the excitement, except zimmerman isnt white. any white racist
would hate him for being half hispanic

be honest at least and admit that youse got sidestepped by zimmerman not being white.


This is either an ethno-centrist fixation rooted on the ideologies of the other side of the Atlantic, or you are just looking to pick up a racial war just for laughs.

I remember writing a post, most likely in the first topic that got deleted, in which I made a clear case about the silliness of trying to make a case for a great difference between white and hispanic. Some hispanics, especially those of white complexion, can be as racists and violent in the treatment of minorities as the worst member of the KKK. Almost everything that you can say about racist whites can be said of hispanic whites. In the census forms in the hispanic countries, Hispanic is not one of the options for racial identification. White, black, mestizo, mulatto, indian are the most common adjectives for race.

Since you seem to be absolutely sure about George Zimmerman race being hispanic, would you care to elaborate on why you say he is hispanic and not white? Somebody mentioned that Zimmerman is of Jewish descent. You think that he may be a ladino?
 trinity818
Joined: 9/1/2006
Msg: 349
George Zimmerman (watchguard) is in FBI custody!
Posted: 4/26/2012 2:31:14 PM
Not sure I want to get into this fray, but...

You know Import... throughout the many threads in these forums, Hispanic and Latino people have been called "brown" almost continuously when referring to how "white" people perceive them. And by that, I mean that it is used as an aggresive tactic against certain "white" views.

So now you are here stating that they are in fact, "white". Now I personally don't care about what "color" any of you other posters care to assign. But it just seems a bit disingenuous to use "color" in the manner that I'm seeing in your post.
 OutofControlMan
Joined: 12/22/2011
Msg: 350
George Zimmerman (watchguard) is in FBI custody!
Posted: 4/26/2012 2:36:32 PM
^^

wow..so 'white' ("Caucasian") people that are out in the sun a lot without using sunblock can "change sides" ?

so complex..to keep all the "sides" or 'blocs' or 'voting alliances' straight..

one day you could be on the 'white' side then next week be out in the sun all day every day for a week and suddenly have to switch gears because now you look 'mestizo'.. SOME white/Caucasoid types even get darker than some black/African-American/Negroid types..how is one to keep all this straight?

for example, I know "white" /Caucasian people who work outdoors in the sun and have much darker skin tone than US President Barack Obama, strange isn't it?

the entire cast of "The Jersey Shore", ostensibly white/Italian-American, and a frequent poster on here, about 60 years old, male, BFGT, would also qualify (being darker than Obama while being classed as "white")
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 351
George Zimmerman (watchguard) is in FBI custody!
Posted: 4/26/2012 2:45:41 PM
That's such a weird tangent. Probably foisted by the same people who don't think the President is black because his mother is white.

His last name is Zimmerman. He looks white. I don't really care much about his ethnicity - he targeted his victim because of the victim's skin colour. That's where the racism comes in.
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 352
George Zimmerman (watchguard) is in FBI custody!
Posted: 4/26/2012 2:57:36 PM
Not sure I want to get into this fray, but...

You know Import... throughout the many threads in these forums, Hispanic and Latino people have been called "brown" almost continuously when referring to how "white" people perceive them. And by that, I mean that it is used as an aggresive tactic against certain "white" views.

So now you are here stating that they are in fact, "white". Now I personally don't care about what "color" any of you other posters care to assign. But it just seems a bit disingenuous to use "color" in the manner that I'm seeing in your post.


Hi Trinity,

Perhaps you missed the part where I said that when it comes to some people I don't make much of a difference if they are Hispanic or White. I have two Spanish last names (father and mather), but my father was very fair skinned, whereas my mother was more brown skinned. If you looked at her trying to figure her ancestry you most likely would find some Caucasian mixed with Moorish and Mapuche (indigenous from Chile) features.

If you care to know what I am trying to accomplish with my posts addressing those who insist to post fishing for a "racial war" here in the field of POF, is to show them that they don't seem to know much about the Hispanic vs White issue in this case.

And just in case someone would like to mis-interpret what I am saying, I am not trying to shift blame away from the Hispanic component onto the White component here, just because I am a Hispanic. If you read my posts you would see that I have been very tough on Geraldo Rivera, a Hispanic tv personality that erroneously inserted himself in this case. I even recognize that the ones who started the slave trade in the Americas were people who you would call Hispanics, after they had virtually destroyed the native population of the territories they had conquered and colonized.
 trinity818
Joined: 9/1/2006
Msg: 354
George Zimmerman (watchguard) is in FBI custody!
Posted: 4/26/2012 4:41:43 PM
I don't know what happened that night. The media has skewed the information that is fed to us, so that none of us really KNOW what happened.

Zimmerman will get his trial. Hopefully, it will be impartial and fair for all. But, there will be no "winners", because Martin is already dead.

It shouldn't be about color. But, somehow it always seems to end up there.
 OutofControlMan
Joined: 12/22/2011
Msg: 355
George Zimmerman (watchguard) is in FBI custody!
Posted: 4/26/2012 5:13:39 PM

I was going to mention that there have been a HUGE number of black on white beatings and murders done recently in the "name of Trayvon."
Conveniently, you won't find these stories mention in the MSM.


but, you just happen to know about them because you are so 'connected' even though there is a 'conspiracy' to suppress' 'these stories
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