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 moraima
Joined: 6/26/2005
Msg: 110
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Dosen't want to move in with anybodyPage 6 of 7    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7)
"I think when the right people meet, after they get to know each other, they would want to live with that person."

5 pages of multiple people saying that they don't want a live in situation. Too bad that some people don't listen. Too bad that some people think that everyone thinks just like they do.

Decades ago I used to think that living with someone you love makes sense. Today I know from personal experience that many of us prefer to live alone, and have someone in our lives who has (and enjoys) their own home.
 mjinict
Joined: 8/13/2008
Msg: 111
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Dosen't want to move in with anybody
Posted: 4/30/2012 5:52:41 AM
5 pages of multiple people saying that they don't want a live in situation. Too bad that some people don't listen. Too bad that some people think that everyone thinks just like they do.
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Don't listen? Everyone's entitled to what they want, live in, live alone, marriage.
 moraima
Joined: 6/26/2005
Msg: 112
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Dosen't want to move in with anybody
Posted: 4/30/2012 8:07:46 AM
"^^exactly. And that quote could be true in the reverse if it applied at all. :/
He was expressing his view.......not a thing wrong with that...."listening" is a two-way street. Hardline absolutes in one person's life don't invalidate another's preference or choice. Sigh."

"I think when the right people meet, after they get to know each other, they would want to live with that person."

Poster said they would want to live with that person, not he would want to live with that person. He is assuming that other people would act the same way as he thinks he will.

It gets tiresome when you state you don't want to move in with anybody, and the other person doesn't think you know your own mind, and assumes that you will change you mind once you are in love with them.

"5 pages of multiple people saying that they don't want a live in situation. Too bad that some people don't listen. Too bad that some people think that everyone thinks just like they do.
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Don't listen? Everyone's entitled to what they want, live in, live alone, marriage."

I didn't post that anyone isn't entitled to what they want. I posted that many people want something different than those who are looking for someone to live with.
 MACALA
Joined: 9/19/2011
Msg: 113
Dosen't want to move in with anybody
Posted: 4/30/2012 8:27:52 AM
Marriage sure does destroy a lot of relationships!
 Sciencetreker
Joined: 2/13/2012
Msg: 114
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Dosen't want to move in with anybody
Posted: 4/30/2012 6:45:29 PM
My gal and I just spent a wonderful few days away together. Felt like being in our late teens. Now we look forward to making out with each other after a date later this week. She sends me all these provacative emails. Even after dating for two years we're just enjoying it too much to even think about moving in together. We've both been married and both had a couple of live in arrangements. Not jaded by them but at this stage of our lives just enjoy going with the flow. Maybe one day we'll live together...maybe. Just no longer 'the goal' as it was in younger years. Past the child bearing years, life becomes more about the moment and less about creating a home life that's best for bringing up kids.
 mjinict
Joined: 8/13/2008
Msg: 115
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Dosen't want to move in with anybody
Posted: 4/30/2012 8:20:47 PM
It's funny how we are so much pickier about who we spend the rest of our lives with than when we were younger when there's not that much left.
 ladyc4
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 116
Dosen't want to move in with anybody
Posted: 5/1/2012 9:46:36 AM

It's funny how we are so much pickier about who we spend the rest of our lives with than when we were younger when there's not that much left.

Well, many of us WERE pickier when we were younger, not every woman over 45 who is single is in some kind of dire straits. And we want to be reasonably sure that we don't f*ck up whats' left of our lives with a bad relationship choice. I fail to see the problem, of 2 people being in a relationship but not co-mingling habitation and finances...it seems to me that such a course of action might reduce some of the more common concerns and issues. For those who CHOOSE to cohabit and are willing to accept any risks and issues that could arise, that also is perfectly fine.
Cindy O
 ladyc4
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 117
Dosen't want to move in with anybody
Posted: 5/2/2012 12:33:04 PM
When 2 people of mature age contemplate marriage, it is,IMO,imperative to investigate what may happen to certain pensions, insurance benefits-how will a marriage impact SS retirement benefits? Its' my understanding that a married couple gets like a check and a half? Where as 2 single people drawing SS retirement benefits could live together and each draw from their own earnings( or as survivor of deceased worker)-so they would be getting 2 checks, not a check and a half.
As for private pensions, Social Security drawn on the account of an ex-spouse, SSI, etc, I think that can vary depending on the particulars of the situation.
But yes-if one thinks "two can live as cheaply as one" and formalizes the union, they might find themselves losing half of one partners' SS retirement benefits.

My suggestion would be that any couple of mature years who already have pensions in play, or expect to start drawing one in the near future, should seek professional advice from someone trained in "elder finances"-be that an attorney, an accountant, a SS-specialist attorney or certified financial planner( I mean a fee-for-service planner, not someone who is going to try to sell you their company's financial products!) Other things to look at are tax issues if one person sells their home, because there can be limitations on when/how often one can invoke the tax exemption on income from the sale of primary residence, and the timing of the sale( whether before or after the wedding) can also impact that situation. I would advise that people NOT go on what they heard from a friend or what they think will happen or what did happen to someone they know-get competent professional advice. Tax laws and pension/SS regulations are subject to change and even if Federal income tax isn't applicable ya always gotta look out for state and local taxes. In situations where one or both people are receiving services, subsidies, benefits from special programs, marriage or even cohabitation may impact "household income" and cause reduction or loss of those benefits.
Yes, financial matters relating to pensions, SS, alimony, needs-based payments ,services,subsidies, taxes on income from sale of one residence(or income from renting it out) should be explored with a knowledgeable professional, because sometimes marriage or even cohabitation can impact certain types of income. People have gotten married and then discovered that by so doing, they had shot one or both of them in the financial foot. I REALIZE that for quite a few folks, a reduction in their income will not overweigh the material and social/spiritual benefits of marriage, and in some cases marriage may result in access to insurance benefits or other "perks". It's something that has to be looked at and evaluated for each particular situation.
Cindy O
 GrandmaBooBoo
Joined: 12/30/2006
Msg: 118
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Dosen't want to move in with anybody
Posted: 5/2/2012 1:03:54 PM
^^^ Good point Wrandy. My Dad and his "girlfriend" have not married for that very reason. She gets a pension from her late husband....LOL! and my Dad has so many ex-wives that she wouldn't get much after the breakdown between them. I think alimony usually has a clause somewhere that states that it stops if the ex remarries.

HOWEVER (don't you just hate those howevers?) ..... since you did mention that no one had mentioned "money"...LOL! and since I'm not looking for a mate....so I can well afford to be completely honest without being fearful of "limiting my choices".....Of course, money is always an issue! LOL! And the more someone protests that it's NOT an issue....the MORE you can be certain that it IS....indeed...an issue.

Personally....I've worked my butt off for what I have (my pension is MY own..and I've never recieved any alimony...though I DID pay him alimony for 2 years) , and it's NOT that I'm unwilling to "share"....actually, I'm a very generous person...it's just that....when you "Co-Habitate" with a romantic partner....sooner or later...they WILL assume an attitude of "entitlement". I've been through this, so I DO know what I'm talking about. I grant you, I spoiled my children....and I "spoil" my grandchildren. BUT....it's MY business if I want to buy my grown daughter a $200 sweater....and it's NOT either my business, OR my responsibility if my "partners" 12 yr old daughter has to drop out of dance class because Mommy and Daddy can't afford the lessons.

It's also NOT that either person is selfish.....they just have DIFFERENT priorities...and if one of the partners income is higher, then you can bet that the lower income is going to expect some "sharing" that moves BEYOND the boundaries of the relationship itself (to include other family members) IF someone WANTS to help out, it's one thing....but all too often, it's a presumption that they SHOULD....simply because of a co-habitation relationship.

This is one reason why I truly believe that if someone needs to "share living space" for the sake of economics, they're further ahead financially to share those costs with a NON romantic roommate. It avoids the presumption that there is a "traditional family unit" in which everyone gets treated equally....his/hers/theirs.
 Sciencetreker
Joined: 2/13/2012
Msg: 119
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Dosen't want to move in with anybody
Posted: 5/2/2012 1:10:12 PM
There are posters here from around the world and, not to knock Americans, but it would be nice if some were not so myopic and understood that the USA does not equal the world. Not only do laws and terms (SS ?) differ between countries but marriage laws, property divisions, etc. laws can differ between provinces of Canada, states of the USA, states of Australia, etc.
 Secondhand_Lion
Joined: 11/10/2008
Msg: 120
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Dosen't want to move in with anybody
Posted: 5/2/2012 1:46:55 PM
^^^What's you point there "sciencetreker"...you want Americans off your Canadian site, or do you just expect us to familiarize ourselves with the laws of all other nations before we post something of our concern? Well, I guess we all should enroll in law school for the next 300 years and drag a post out for 30 pages to make sure we've covered them all. LOL I've got a great idea, how about if a post doesn't apply to us, we just forget about it and find one that does!.....Oh!, my head is hurting from doing all that thinking. LOL

Grandmabooboo, we don't always agree, but I believe you knocked that ball out of the park. LOL
 nativerock
Joined: 10/16/2010
Msg: 121
Dosen't want to move in with anybody
Posted: 5/2/2012 3:39:31 PM

Does anybody else feel the same way? I am at a point in life where I am reasonably happy with my living situation. It would be nice to be involved in an exclusive relationship with a lady who felt the same way. It seems that a lot of women are looking more for marraige or long term cohabitation. I'm not talking about a FWB casual thing.


I really see no difference to be honest since in my mind YOU do want a casual relationship
 zookie57
Joined: 1/27/2012
Msg: 122
Dosen't want to move in with anybody
Posted: 5/2/2012 4:09:19 PM
Message:
Once we reach a certain age some of us are not so keen to marry and co-habit. IF we are financially independent especially. I would prefer a part time thing, just staying for the week end etc. Going on trips. I like my space and everything in place....



Good point, as imo most of the women here, would like this arrangement if say over 45-50...now.....

.Cuz, now your life is not needed to raise families, households,school functions,husbands, & all other stuff,24/7!

Enjoy !!!!!!!!!!
 BlackLady1953
Joined: 5/27/2011
Msg: 123
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Dosen't want to move in with anybody
Posted: 5/3/2012 8:01:38 AM
I like how you state your position, Lady C4. I couldn't agree more.
 moonbeamlover
Joined: 3/19/2012
Msg: 124
Dosen't want to move in with anybody
Posted: 5/3/2012 11:25:16 AM
It's funny though; I honestly don't think I WOULD prefer a "part time thing" IF the fit was good, the two personalities blendable, it is a shared space and it was not one "owning" with the other one "staying".

The problem? Usually one moves in with the other, which means one person is sharing and the other person is sort of trying to fit into an already established space with a person's routines, habits, living conditions etc. already set; and to try and reintegrate that takes SO much patience, give and take and the mover inner needing to be allowed to feel at home, not like they're an "extended guest".

I live in a location I need in a home I own with a place for my kids; and have a lot and setting I need for peace of mind. They need it since their father is not onlyabsentee in the area; he's not even on the continent; so it is huge and there is living area for them so that we all have places... with them already having had one parent bail; I can't bail on them too; even though they are grown they need some kind of "home base".

So those people who demand that the woman has to move in with the man; that just won't work in all situations. And some men think it's demeaning to move in with the woman; (I think one person called it "moving into someone's basement")... it to them felt derogatory, second class and like they were being 'owned or kept' by the woman.

Then of course is the financial like boo said; when living together, not only are you trying to blend habits, space, activities and when to be alone (and where to go to be alone), but also whose "house rules" win if they are in direct conflict with each other; and don't even get me started on the financial blending. Does the person pay rent towards the mortgage? Who pays for groceries? At some point the lines blur, and people start to keep track. And money is the number one killer for relationships.

And don't get me started on kids. Whether the kids are little or fully grown, they also will get involved in two people's relationship (most frequent complaint is someone's parenting style; where one person is disrespected or questioned by the other for their parenting choices... or that other person is not protected by the parent when their kids regularly go off on them and the parent does not ask for respect; which isn't fair either.

So while maybe people's preference isn't part time; it is definately a lot easier. But part time does not have a person you care about waking up to you in the mornings, sitting on the balcony watching the eagles over the lake having coffee early on saturdays or have that knowledge that you are sharing a place you love with a person you care about a lot, in a fundamentally real way.

It's all a matter of compromises; and everyone says the older we get the more set in our ways we get. Guess we decide if our "setting" keeps people out of part of our lives, or whether we "unset" if a person is a really good fit; where all those pieces are looked at seriously by both people and compromises are reached, where BOTH are the winners. But it takes a lot of compromise, a lot of patience, a lot of give and take and both people needing to feel equally at home, otherwise one is always going to be an interloper who is on shaky ground if the other decides they don't like it.

If the compromise can happen? My preference ultimately is living together; where I find someone who wants the same. But if it can't; life is still pretty dang good now, guess just keep on keeping on this way. Guess people decide what they want most... part time life, physical and emotional intimacy or full time. Full time comes at a cost; but it also comes with incredibly great reward.
 GrandmaBooBoo
Joined: 12/30/2006
Msg: 125
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Dosen't want to move in with anybody
Posted: 5/3/2012 3:33:33 PM
Well, first of all....we seem to have gotten off the mental track here and are assuming that this "living together" is either equal to a legal marriage, or heading in that direction. I'm taking the original statement at total face value...."moving in" and leaving it at just that.
Moonbeam poses the situation, and rightly so...that the "extended guest" may feel slighted by the arrangement. I think that a good many of us are like her....in that, we are in a place, both physically and mentally...where we feel safe, secure, and happy. Myself, I JUST built a new home....after waiting for nearly 10 years for Mr. Right to come along...and realizing that that was never going to happen...I moved on with MY life....as it IS....not as some future fantasy that I'd like to see happen. NO WAY....for NO ONE will I EVER move away from here. LOL! unfortunately.....most men feel the same way about the homes that they have sweated over, worked on, planned out...and dreamed of. These may be more negotiable when someone is under the age of 50, but believe me....when you hit that magic number....you're no longer so much "dreaming" of your future.....you've started LIVING your future.


Then of course is the financial like boo said; when living together, not only are you trying to blend habits, space, activities and when to be alone (and where to go to be alone), but also whose "house rules" win if they are in direct conflict with each other; and don't even get me started on the financial blending. Does the person pay rent towards the mortgage? Who pays for groceries? At some point the lines blur, and people start to keep track. And money is the number one killer for relationships.
She's spot on with this too. And it's NOT ONLY "house rules"....because I think that most adults realize and are willing to make some compromises for the comfort of the other partner so that they will feel equally "at home", but there is bound to always be that "owner" vs. "tenent" conflict when there are any disagreements.
It would take TWO very mature, and VERY emotionally secure individuals to make this living situation work.

Where we disagree is in that the "Full time" vs. the "part time" HAS to absolutely mean....co-habitation. I believe that it's entirely possible to two people to have physical and emotional intimacy....FULL TIME....even when they're NOT joined at the hip! To demonstrate.....think of all the couples who DO co-habitate....and still have NO physical or emotional intimacy!

Some people get really hung up on "making compromises"....to make something else "better"...work! I think that when TOO MANY compromises have to be made, then the "something better"....really isn't better afterall.

WHY should a man have to compromise what he's worked his whole life for....just to have an fulfilling relationship? For that matter...why should I (a woman) have to compromise what I've worked my whole life for....to have an intimate relationship with a man? Once we get past that Junior High School mentality....we come to realize that we don't HAVE to be with someone 24/7 to share the most intimate relationship of our lives. I would, in fact....prefer is no man ever had to make any "compromises" to have a relationship with me....other than his free time.
 moonbeamlover
Joined: 3/19/2012
Msg: 126
Dosen't want to move in with anybody
Posted: 5/3/2012 3:59:26 PM

Where we disagree is in that the "Full time" vs. the "part time" HAS to absolutely mean....co-habitation. I believe that it's entirely possible to two people to have physical and emotional intimacy....FULL TIME....even when they're NOT joined at the hip! To demonstrate.....think of all the couples who DO co-habitate....and still have NO physical or emotional intimacy!

Some people get really hung up on "making compromises"....to make something else "better"...work! I think that when TOO MANY compromises have to be made, then the "something better"....really isn't better afterall.

WHY should a man have to compromise what he's worked his whole life for....just to have an fulfilling relationship? For that matter...why should I (a woman) have to compromise what I've worked my whole life for....to have an intimate relationship with a man? Once we get past that Junior High School mentality....we come to realize that we don't HAVE to be with someone 24/7 to share the most intimate relationship of our lives. I would, in fact....prefer is no man ever had to make any "compromises" to have a relationship with me....other than his free time.



It doesn't have to mean that. Every person is different; every person has a different preference. 24/7 anything nowadays is tough; life is busy, people need to have some separate activities and interests and time apart as well as together time; but my preference is to have that WITH the knowledge I will fall asleep with the same person I wake up with; and share coffee on the deck with while watching the eagles. Just because that is my preference ultimately doesn't mean that is right for everyone. It just means that is right for me IF I can find it. And I've never heard of a relationship where there are no compromises; SOME compromising is the way of blending two people whether it is in a live in situation, apart situation or some blending in between. But it can't be all him towards her or vice versa... it has to be both wanting to meet in the middle.

Then whatever that middle happens to be? More power to those who do it. If a person doesn't full time livein, cool. That is their preference and I'm sure they have extremely meaningful relationships without that extra piece. (actually I don't know anyone who literally wants 24/7; that is pretty constraining). If I do stumble on someone I find important enough and special enough to want that nightly togetherness even knowing there will be space built in? I will make sure i do my part that both of us are winners... but in the meantime? I'm good exactly as I am; and it sounds like you are too. Anyone that comes into life is added as a special bonus and friend; and if that friend develops into someone that can be truly cherished into a special person. If that person fits, wants similar things AND both are evolved enough and compassionate about towards the other that we can meet halfway?

Then I don't think the blending is a bad thing at all. IF both people want it; and they can find a way to BOTH come out ahead. But if they prefer to blend while leaving each other's to sleep, then more power to them. Truly. Neither is right nor wrong.

Different strokes for different folks :)


(but I STILL want to visit your place once you're up and running as a community center lol)
 GrandmaBooBoo
Joined: 12/30/2006
Msg: 127
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Dosen't want to move in with anybody
Posted: 5/3/2012 7:49:48 PM
^^^^ LOL! Still got your standing reservation for GrandmaBooBoo's Home for Wayward Seniors!

BUT, you're right again....of course there are always going to be SOME "compromises" in a relationship....whether there's co-habitation or not, that's just the nature of relationships. I said, ....TOO MANY (compromises) begin to make the relationship look like, more work than it's worth....LOL! to me at least. I like keeping my "accounts" very simple, and straight forward. No one does anything they don' want to do, there's NO "penalty" for saying "No"......AND...the major biggie....LOL! there's NO PENALTY for taking care of something on your own....or for inviting a "back-up" when your first choice was "unavailable".! I'm NOT talking about a "sexual back-up" perse, but....I've been in the very infuriating position of having a "partner" who would constantly have an "emergency" (his ex loved coming up with kid crises' whenever she knew "we'd" have something special planned), so rather than cancel or postpone plans.....I'd go ahead....but with one of my daughters or girlfriends. Stuff like....New Years Eve plans, baseball games, dinner theatre, or long weekend vacations.

Still, I (personally) wouldn't want....and certainly would not expect a man to make anything he deemed a "sacrifice" on my behalf. Then again....we really don't know what any given individual considers a "sacrifice". Many times we might think that someone else is "making a sacrifice" when in reality....it's something they're actually very happy to do. But, let's say.....I got involved with.....a farmer...who had to be there at his place 24/7. I wouldn't balk at still putting in EVERY effort to be a loving and thoughtful "partner"....yet NOT wanting to move in with him. THAT in itself IS a "compromise". I still believe that oft times people get more involved in the idea of having a "relationship" than they are in being concerned with the welfare of the person they claim to care for.
 ottgatman
Joined: 1/26/2012
Msg: 128
Living Apart Together (LAT)
Posted: 5/14/2012 7:50:16 AM
I think what many here have described is a Living Apart Together (LAT) relationship.There are lots of people who prefer it. In some countries, the percentage is quite high among certain demographic groups. In many cases it's circumstances that dictate this type of relationship (parenting responsibilities, where a job is, 'cost' of moving, etc) and in others, it's just the type of relationship that people are looking for. If you know for sure that this is what you are looking for, it should be stated in your profile because it still isn't what most people IRL are looking for.
 Paddy_o_Lantern
Joined: 12/9/2009
Msg: 129
Living Apart Together (LAT)
Posted: 5/14/2012 8:02:33 AM
There are plenty of comprimises any time you are sharing a space with a person whether that is as housemates or as partners in a LTR. Most of us stopped living with a group or friends or acquaintainces when we were young because there were just too many problems associated with housemates and most of us have become more set in our ways than we were in our 20's.

Many people shy away from renting out a room in thier house, thier basement or even a suite in thier house due to the problems involved unless they find it to be a financial necessity. The idea of sharing a house with a group of senior citizens will not be without problems with conflicting ideas on how life is to be lived in a shared environment.
 meteorman_orig
Joined: 1/12/2008
Msg: 130
Dosen't want to move in with anybody
Posted: 5/16/2012 5:00:10 PM
From the comments I read here, looks like a lot of people are planning their exit before anything even gets started. Kind of like the flirt, "Hey baby! How would you like to be my next ex-girlfriend".
 ladyc4
Joined: 2/14/2006
Msg: 131
Dosen't want to move in with anybody
Posted: 5/16/2012 5:42:30 PM
I don't think it's so much about "planning their exit"-it's having the wisdom and foresight to reduce the amount of disentangling of finances, possessions, domiciles, if an exit bcomes necessary.

At 45+,things like one's financial future has to be considered carefully-because there won't be a big window of time to regroup and recoup if a relationship fails. Things like pension income have to be considered, and many 45+ couples have adult, or near-adult children...hopefully these will be GLAD that their parents found someone special, but there can be some complex dynamics when it comes to trying to blend families with adult children.
People over 45 who have not had a live-in SO for quite awhile may have become quite fond of their autonomy. There can be a certain degree of risk in taking up cohabitation with a 45+ adult who seems extremely anxious to do so. At 45+- in MY process of evaluation,anyway!-people ought to be self-possessed enough to be confortable living solo-even if it's not their top preference. One does not get the sense that they have hung all their hopes on cohabitation to solve their problems.

And, when it comes to couples over 45, there is often the matter of both parties being homeowners. Having been closehand witness( my mother and her 2nd husband,after my dad passed) to the financial,practical and emotional complexities that can arise from deciding who moves into whose house-particularly if the house moved out of is then sold-that is not a decision to be made lightly.
No, I'm sorry, I can't agree that people who choose a LAT are "planning their exit", I think they are doing what is right for them. Given all the "anti" LAT commentary heard in these forums, the decision to have a non-cohabiting relationship isn't always easy, either. People will suggest that all kinds of skulduggery is occuring behind one or the other partners' back, they will "attempt" to insult LATs by labeling them as FwBs, not "real relationships", they will claim that one or the other of the partners is STILL looking for "the bigger better deal", or that an exit is already being planned. For people who are truly secure enough to make a LAT work, or at least to UNDERSTAND a LAT, the labels and criticisms don't matter.
Cindy O
 ottgatman
Joined: 1/26/2012
Msg: 132
Dosen't want to move in with anybody
Posted: 5/17/2012 7:24:25 AM
Well said Cindy O!
Without going through all of the previous posts, the only thing I would add is that it seems to me that the percentage of people here on POF who posted on this topic that are in favour of LATs is actually higher than what is found in the general population. There are good reasons for LATs and good reasons for cohabitation and there are also just personal preferences for each. As I mentioned earlier, if you know for sure that you are Only interested in a LAT, you should make that known early as it is still not the norm.
BTW, I remember a similar thread a couple of years ago, 'Must the goal be 24/7 in a committed relationship' http://forums.plentyoffish.com/datingPosts12668044.aspx which despite its title meant must the goal be living together.
 providence2006
Joined: 9/11/2006
Msg: 133
Dosen't want to move in with anybody
Posted: 5/18/2012 9:40:59 AM
I think it would be hard moving into someone else's place. I'd always feel like I was invading their space. I doubt I'd want to live with anyone again after being alone for 12 years but if I did...I'd want to get a new place together so it wouldn't just be his or my place...it'd be ours.
 Sciencetreker
Joined: 2/13/2012
Msg: 134
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Dosen't want to move in with anybody
Posted: 5/18/2012 10:39:36 AM
providence,

good perspective. Same here...a new place is more 'our place'. My girlfriend and I both have our own houses just a few minutes apart. I often cycle over. Also, when we go back to southern France and visit my childhood home it is going to 'my' place. I don't know if we'll ever actually live together but if we do, it will be a new 'our place' either here in Casnada or in France.

It's a bit the same with vacations. We've trravelled a few times to destinatiions neither of us have been to and it's more fun both sharing a new experience.
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