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 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 76
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god .... its all in your head say scientists Page 4 of 11    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11)

Agreed.

And yet here you both are,
you and light star,
posting on the same thread, claiming that you are the only one who is "right".?
Just what is it exactly which separates you, from the "nutters"..?
Are atheists hanging homosexuals, anywhere..?
Are atheists shooting abortion doctors..?
Bombing buildings, performing circumcision on young girls, and baby boys...?
Do atheists demand the "right" to pray, or dress in a certain way..?
Do atheists burn other religions books...? bibles..? korans..?
Do atheists steal countries, and exile the inhabitants, because "god gave them the land"..?
Do atheists knock on doors, or send "missionaries" overseas, to "convert" people..?

If the answer to any of those is "no", then please explain how we are "nutters"...?




Audax, you have excelled yourself!

So Jo Van, the likes of Nicholas Copernicus, Francis Bacon, Johannes Kepler, Galileo Galilei, Rene Descartes, Blaise Pascal, Isaac Newton, Michael Faraday, Gregor Mendel, Max Planck,.........etc, etc, etc are also stupid because they believed in God and you are far more intelligent ?

Is a truly ridiculous question.
As Robinson has pointed out, they were all in the past. Darwin himself was religious.
Nothing to do with "intelligence", just information, we know so much more now, than they did, then.

I have never claimed any intelligence, I merely pointed out that most scientists are atheists.
And that belief in "sky-daddies" correlates with lower intelligence, and atheism, with higher.
Which IS true.
 SwanSpirit
Joined: 10/30/2008
Msg: 77
god .... its all in your head say scientists
Posted: 4/29/2012 4:27:23 PM

And yet here you both are,
you and light star,
posting on the same thread, claiming that you are the only one who is "right".?


Was that to me Jo? If so where on this thread have I claimed I am the only one who is right? The only opinion I have stated is about this thread itself; that the people so unceremoniously evangelical about their beliefs on here are as much the atheists as anyone else which has had me laughing at the irony. Thanks for the laugh Jo. :-) x
 *rem*
Joined: 11/5/2008
Msg: 78
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god .... its all in your head say scientists
Posted: 4/29/2012 4:34:19 PM

I find it a bit strange, that any scientists would try so hard to debunk something, that CANNOT be disproved.

I think they know plenty. We (egyptians etc) seemed to be doing ok up to a few thousand years ago then... nothing.
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 79
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god .... its all in your head say scientists
Posted: 4/29/2012 4:41:47 PM
Was that to me Jo? If so where on this thread have I claimed I am the only one who is right?

If both the atheists, and the religious are "nutters",
then clearly, you seem to think that only people like your very correct selves, who are neither, are not.
Is that too difficult for you to understand..?

HOW does objecting to all the religious wars, Afghanistan Iraq, Iran, Israel, etc etc. make me a "nutter"...?
How does pointing out that there are 4,000 different religions, and hundreds of different versions of "god", who all strangely claim they are the only "true" religion make me a nutter..?

Would I be more "sane" if I simply ignored all of that..?

I think you should re-think.
Religions are killing us.
Atheists aren't.



Edit:
VVV

I am no more into organised religion than you are however I respect that those who believe in it have a right to be heard without being branded stupid.

And yet you thought it ok to "brand" both atheists, and the religious, as "nutters"...?

 SwanSpirit
Joined: 10/30/2008
Msg: 80
god .... its all in your head say scientists
Posted: 4/29/2012 4:55:47 PM
I am re-thinking .. that I'm off to bed as sleep will be more interesting than carrying on this convo. Jo I respect your views for what they are, your views, however you don't seem to be able to do the same to anyone else which makes any discussion with you pointless, that was my whole point. I am no more into organised religion than you are however I respect that those who believe in it have a right to be heard without being branded stupid.

Edit:
You're not nutters for believing in atheism or religion, you're nutters for continuing to pointlessly argue with each other.
 CharityTrue
Joined: 11/15/2011
Msg: 81
god .... its all in your head say scientists
Posted: 4/29/2012 4:56:12 PM
Does being an atheist mean that you don't accept any spiritual reality, or just a non-belief in any "God"?
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 82
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god .... its all in your head say scientists
Posted: 4/29/2012 5:19:27 PM
Does being an atheist mean that you don't accept any spiritual reality, or just a non-belief in any "God"?

There are no rules.
That's one of the really cool things about it.
Oooh And the barbeques.....

It depends what you mean by "spiritual". It's one of those vague, ill-defined words.

If you mean does it prevent me from appreciating the true beauty and magnificence of nature, which surrounds me on a daily basis, then no.
And I love art, and music, science, great literature, poetry, philosophy, and comedy...
I am sympathetic to the human condition, I'm fully capable of both experiencing, and feeling love, and pain, attraction, and repulsion, in it's many forms.
I'm a fckin atheist, I'm not autistic!


Edit: VVV
I've gotta go to bed!

I'm talking about do you acknowledge a sphere of reality beyond your 5 senses, or not?

There is definitely "stuff" we don't yet know, or know about.
But it's not "god".
We have no sense for lots of things which we already know are there: radio waves, radiation, various particles, etc etc.
We're still learning, I'm not at all smug, about what we know.
But there's no need to turn to superstitions, to try and explain it.

Night.
 CharityTrue
Joined: 11/15/2011
Msg: 83
god .... its all in your head say scientists
Posted: 4/29/2012 5:39:02 PM
My son has a form of autism...
I'm talking about do you acknowledge a sphere of reality beyond your 5 senses, or not?
 day-trader
Joined: 2/22/2012
Msg: 84
god .... its all in your head say scientists
Posted: 4/29/2012 5:55:43 PM
The good looking woman in the green top posted this:

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/right-brain-v-left-brain/story-e6frf7jo-1111114603615

The dancer spins clockwise for me although I don't have any spiritual experiences, saying that I do remember that time when I drunk a bottle of aftershock and felt like I was flying.
Spooky god stuff!
 lightstar1
Joined: 2/21/2012
Msg: 85
god .... its all in your head say scientists
Posted: 4/30/2012 1:23:22 AM
Msg 92 - Thank you for your enlightened observation of my comment.
I have revisited that post, and at no point in time do I claim to be 'right' -
merely expressing an opinion in the hope of adding to the ongoing discussion, which, as far as I am concerned, is what Forum is (partially) about.

 billywambam
Joined: 4/9/2012
Msg: 86
god .... its all in your head say scientists
Posted: 4/30/2012 5:21:57 AM
see.nobody can realy prove if there is a god or not.? alot these super intelligent scientists and physicists say that all the universe and the miracle of life in it started from a big bang.? but what or whom started this big bang.? a build up of gases and particiles some of them say.but surely if nothing existed before this big bang.then who made the particles and gases.etc that started the big bang.i just cant get my head around that in the begining there was a nowt.then a bang.then planets and stars.then little germs that turned into creatures.that eventualy evolved into intelligent life forms and animals and super intelligent humans that can fly to the moon and create spage age type technology.etc and on top of this we still have the miracle of nature and others things that cannot be explained proper .and all of this came from nowt.? now i think everyone has a right to a opinion on this without resorting to insults and name calling.athiests and god believers.but me personaly.im still not convinced by all this scientific talk that life came from nothing.but i doubt there will ever be definite proof from either camps if there is a god or not.
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 87
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god .... its all in your head say scientists
Posted: 4/30/2012 6:26:55 AM

Msg 92 - Thank you for your enlightened observation of my comment.
I have revisited that post, and at no point in time do I claim to be 'right' -

You said:
religious, atheist two sides of the same coin.
nutters the both of em!
whether it does exist or not i don't see what there is to argue about!

If you "don't see what there is to argue about", wouldn't it just be better to just not post..?
Rather than coming onto a thread and describing those who do see something to debate, as "nutters"..?
Do you not consider that an insult..?

merely expressing an opinion in the hope of adding to the ongoing discussion, which, as far as I am concerned, is what Forum is (partially) about.

Yes, that is what it's about.
So why describe those who do exactly that, who contribute to the debate, because they have an interest in it, as "nutters"..?
Did you include your own contributions, in that 'definition', or does it only apply to others..?


Msg: 96, Swannie:Edit:
You're not nutters for believing in atheism or religion, you're nutters for continuing to pointlessly argue with each other.

I could bore you with a long list of threads I think are "pointless", where people bleat endlessly about lack of replies, photos, or the lack thereof. I may occasionally post in them.
But you won't find me describing the participants as "nutters", (even if I may think that! ), because that would just be an insult, and I'd be doing 'time' for it.

Science didn't set out, to "disprove religion".
They search for facts.
It was this search, which revealed that the earth wasn't at "the center of the universe",
that the universe didn't revolve around the earth, as the bible had said, and as had always been believed.
The church forced Galileo to 'recant', under threat of death.

When Darwin conceived his ideas, about evolution, he didn't "believe" them at first, because they contradicted his religious beliefs, about "creation".

Science has since discovered the exact age of the earth, the universe, and other interesting facts, which have also contradicted religious myths about the age of the earth, and "creation".

I'm not claiming that people who believe are "stupid", or lack intelligence.
Clearly qualified Barristers like the Blairs, can't be "stupid". (In the conventional sense! OK., - bad example!)

But statistically, the higher your intelligence, the less likely you will be to believe in "god".
It doesn't exclude the possibility that you could be a total genius, and still believe in "god"!!

These are the beliefs of neolithic farmers from the bronze age!
Which have been perpetuated by their "sacred texts". And oppression.

I find it enormously ignorant, and insulting, to suggest that anyone who dares to "disrespect" these already discredited beliefs, as a "nutter".

If you don't think the existence of "god", or the veracity of religions, are worth debating,
then stay out of it, and stick to discussing other topics of earth-shattering importance, like messages, moles, photo's, or snogging.

In a sense, ALL debates/discussions here, are "pointless".
I feel this subject to be 'less pointless' than some others, but that's JMO., and it doesn't make me a "nutter".

Religion is the huge "elephant in the room". It causes endless problems.
People whine about "new religions" coming here, and "diluting our culture".
The BNP, the EDL., etc etc. usually, whilst ironically waving a 'cross of St George'!
Christianity came from the exact same place, as Islam, and Judaism.
And "christians" here, also encourage and champion the spread of Islam here.

If nuclear war ever breaks out, THAT'S where it will happen. In "The Holy Land".
Because all three "harmless" religious beliefs, have been killing people there, (and here, and elsewhere) for centuries!
And all because "god" tells them to.

Billywambam: Read "A Brief History of Time" by Stephen Hawking.
It's in all good charity shops, now!
It may not answer all your questions, but it's a good start.
 CharityTrue
Joined: 11/15/2011
Msg: 88
god .... its all in your head say scientists
Posted: 4/30/2012 7:34:34 AM

see.nobody can realy prove if there is a god or not.? alot these super intelligent scientists and physicists say that all the universe and the miracle of life in it started from a big bang.? but what or whom started this big bang.? a build up of gases and particiles some of them say.but surely if nothing existed before this big bang.then who made the particles and gases.etc that started the big bang.i just cant get my head around that in the begining there was a nowt.then a bang.then planets and stars.then little germs that turned into creatures.that eventualy evolved into intelligent life forms and animals and super intelligent humans that can fly to the moon and create spage age type technology.etc and on top of this we still have the miracle of nature and others things that cannot be explained proper .and all of this came from nowt.? now i think everyone has a right to a opinion on this without resorting to insults and name calling.athiests and god believers.but me personaly.im still not convinced by all this scientific talk that life came from nothing.but i doubt there will ever be definite proof from either camps if there is a god or not.

simply, but eloquently put billywambam...

If you put that to a small child, they would laugh at you and think you silly...
Everything on earth, mummy and daddy, flowers, trees, whales, volcanoes, cars and spaceships, life, truth, justice, honesty, honour, love, hatred, war, death, genocide, fear all came from.... NOTHING???....
and they call us the fantasists...lol...
 SwanSpirit
Joined: 10/30/2008
Msg: 89
god .... its all in your head say scientists
Posted: 4/30/2012 7:46:03 AM
JoVan it wasn't even Lightstar who said that .. it was Try1more ... who btw has a sense of humour that I share which was why I agreed ... see I wasn't condemming everyone for their beliefs I was sharing the humour.



see.nobody can realy prove if there is a god or not.? alot these super intelligent scientists and physicists say that all the universe and the miracle of life in it started from a big bang.? but what or whom started this big bang.? a build up of gases and particiles some of them say.but surely if nothing existed before this big bang.then who made the particles and gases.etc that started the big bang.i just cant get my head around that in the begining there was a nowt.then a bang.then planets and stars.then little germs that turned into creatures.that eventualy evolved into intelligent life forms and animals and super intelligent humans that can fly to the moon and create spage age type technology.etc and on top of this we still have the miracle of nature and others things that cannot be explained proper .and all of this came from nowt.? now i think everyone has a right to a opinion on this without resorting to insults and name calling.athiests and god believers.but me personaly.im still not convinced by all this scientific talk that life came from nothing.but i doubt there will ever be definite proof from either camps if there is a god or not.


Well put Billy. I DO agree with that.
 lightstar1
Joined: 2/21/2012
Msg: 90
god .... its all in your head say scientists
Posted: 4/30/2012 7:53:34 AM
Msg 103 -

If you care to check back, the quote that you have attributed to me, which included the word 'nutters' is a direct lift from Post 103 by Try I More, which appears after mine.

- Just thought that I'd clear that one up.............

 CharityTrue
Joined: 11/15/2011
Msg: 91
god .... its all in your head say scientists
Posted: 4/30/2012 8:04:59 AM
Ironically, Jo Van,you come across as a zealot for non-belief...
You dehumanize believers as stupid...
It reminds me of the propaganda against the jews in nazi germany..." they are "unworthy"/" unlike" us..."
I shudder to think what would happen to people of faith if someone like you got into power, you sound like you'd have us all killed...
 CharityTrue
Joined: 11/15/2011
Msg: 92
god .... its all in your head say scientists
Posted: 4/30/2012 8:26:28 AM
go back and read what I said...
I didn't compare him to Hitler, I compared his denunciation of believers as stupid reminiscent of nazi propagandists; "othering" people, claiming to have statistics to back up his claims of their inferiority...

See the difference?
 marcochampo
Joined: 4/20/2011
Msg: 93
god .... its all in your head say scientists
Posted: 4/30/2012 8:30:30 AM
i don't think that science is set out to disprove the existence of god, science by its nature is out to discover how things work and became to be..
its only when science discovers a new fact about the universe and evolution of life ,
those that believe in religion are up in arms, screaming that science is out to disprove religion as seen by this and other threads.

The universe is much older than life itself, so when someone posts
@msg102

in the begining there was a nowt.then a bang.then planets and stars.then little germs that turned into creatures.that eventualy evolved into intelligent life forms and animals and super intelligent humans that can fly to the moon and create spage age type technology.etc and on top of this we still have the miracle of nature and others things that cannot be explained proper .and all of this came from nowt.?


many of the elements needed for life were not formed until at least 200 million years after the big bang,,
so life did not evolve from nowt..
we are all by products of the stars .our star is around half way through its life span, in around 4 billion years it will expand and collapse under its own gravity eventually becoming a white dwarf..

The biggest cosmic event we are heading for is the emanate collision with our neighbouring galaxy the andromeda in around 3 billion years.

Amongst others ,Science are also studying and plotting near earth orbits of asteroids and comets .

My point is religions can not validate there claims,
and science has no place for religious mumbo jumbo
 dwight_the
Joined: 7/4/2010
Msg: 94
god .... its all in your head say scientists
Posted: 4/30/2012 8:35:59 AM
@above .And how you know that what you wrote is true,you read it somewhere??

I find it that people who are losing a debate always rush to quote that Goodwin fella...
 marcochampo
Joined: 4/20/2011
Msg: 95
god .... its all in your head say scientists
Posted: 4/30/2012 8:46:00 AM
@112
i have done some reading , but also
simple chemistry tests will validate my claims, on how elements are formed ,

Could you validate any of your claims ?
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 96
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god .... its all in your head say scientists
Posted: 4/30/2012 8:49:46 AM
If you care to check back, the quote that you have attributed to me, which included the word 'nutters' is a direct lift from Post 103 by Try I More, which appears after mine.

OOPS!
Sincerest Apologies Light star!

You're quite right, it was Try1more, NOT you.
(And it was msg:81, I guess we all make mistakes)
It was very late! I knew I should have just gone to bed, but no work today, so I pushed the boat out)
Try1: Grrrrr!


ronically, Jo Van,you come across as a zealot for non-belief...
You dehumanize believers as stupid...
It reminds me of the propaganda against the jews in nazi germany..." they are "unworthy"/" unlike" us..."
I shudder to think what would happen to people of faith if someone like you got into power, you sound like you'd have us all killed...

Hahaha!
Why don't you check out what they've done since then, all based on a belief in "god".
Ethnic cleansing, based on some strange notion of "race", has dispossessed the Palestinians of the lands they'd lived on for centuries.
700, 000 in 1948 alone, and an immigration of about 3.5 million people from elsewhere.
Elsewhere in the region, there are mullahs hanging homo's from crane jibs, in public squares, women being stoned to death, for having been raped.
Teachers killed, for teaching girls, genital mutilation, and 'jihad'....
But no, "I'm a zealot"...?
And apparently, daring to point out that all this stuff simply isn't true, as well as being more than a little bit 'crazy', makes me a "nutter"..?

So, some of you have said you don't understand the "Big Bang", or how matter was formed..?
And because you don't understand it, that means those who do, must be wrong..?
And it must have all "been created"...?
It's easy to see how religions get started, isn't it..?

You know a discussion/debate is dead in the water, once people bring up or start comparing the people they're arguing with to Hitler or the Nazis

/Godwin'sLaw

I thought the "Law" Stated that they've "Lost"...?


Edit:

1. If I was a an omnipotent cosmic architect that went around creating universes - even cosmic entities need hobbies - and covered my tracks by aging the Universe and everything in it, hid all traces of my existence, and set up loads of stuff (that makes perfect sense) for science to discover... How would any scientist ever know that I did that?

2. If all of existence was just a figment of my imagination (something that cannot be proved or disproved) wouldn't that means that "god" is in my head - or to be more precise, my mind?

1/, Why would a "cosmic architect" seek to perform this "practical joke" on one particular species, in one particular galaxy...?
Was he bored.?
2/. Things existed before you were around, ask your parents. There's plenty of evidence, unless you're claiming that everyone else is also a figment of your imagination.
You're not the only sentient being.

edit, AGAIN:

Who's this they? Everyone who believes?
Everyone is capable of atrocities, atheists are no better than those who claim to believe...
Nonsense...
You're the only one using derogatory language, as usual....

"They" as in the "jews", "muslims" and "christians" killing each other (and us) for their beliefs in "god" and what the tora/koran/bible tells them "god said" to do.
Where's the "derogatory language"...?
 CharityTrue
Joined: 11/15/2011
Msg: 97
god .... its all in your head say scientists
Posted: 4/30/2012 9:10:19 AM
Who's this they? Everyone who believes?
Everyone is capable of atrocities, atheists are no better than those who claim to believe...
Nonsense...
You're the only one using derogatory language, as usual....
 marcochampo
Joined: 4/20/2011
Msg: 98
god .... its all in your head say scientists
Posted: 4/30/2012 9:32:26 AM
@msg 112

<div class="quote">@above .And how you know that what you wrote is true,you read it somewhere??

guess you have no proof then, i never really expected any..but no worries

i have said before , there is nothing wrong in believing in a almighty divine god,,
i know that some find comfort with it ...
what i think is that science and religion are two separate disciplines if you like ..
Science is looking for the complete answer where the results can be tested and scrutinised by others..
Religions are more of lifestyle ,where proof is not really an issue
@113

<div class="quote">2. If all of existence was just a figment of my imagination (something that cannot be proved or disproved) wouldn't that mean that "god" IS in my head - or to be more precise, my mind?

Science can prove without any doubt that you are alive and so exist,
we can not prove what you are thinking or what you believe in ,that's your freedom of will,
So if you or anyone else wants to believe in a cosmic super hero,then that's just fine and dandy..
it only becomes an issue when you try and convince others to join with your beliefs,
at that point it is up to you to substantiate your beliefs not science..


====================================================
@118

Yes. It is a possibility that all of existence and everything in it, could all be a part of one's imagination. A dream, if you like.

of course its a possiblilty,, so is anything that you may care to think of..the mind is a wonderful organ, we could all be living on the astral field .. but your concept has no place in science ,as it can not be tested ,, unless you can come up with something that we could scrutinise and decept,then it will and should remain within the bounds of your own mind..


If you were locked into a dream and there was no way to remove you from it... How could it be proven that you're dreaming?


their has been much research done over sleep patterns and brain activity especially during rem sleep.. so i would suspect that your dream state could be detected..
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 99
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god .... its all in your head say scientists
Posted: 4/30/2012 10:32:30 AM
@msg 115

What practical joke?

If I want to remove all traces of my existence so that all lifeforms - especially the sentient ones (when they eventually come into the picture) can just believe whatever they choose to believe, then it makes sense to give them a believable platform to base that belief on.

So you ( The "CA") want to give them freedom of choice, but you choose to deceive them..? And erradicate all trace of your existence..?
Surely if such an "omnipotent" being existed, he'd be just as capable of making his creations think whatever he wanted them to..?

It's like when people tell me the bible (or any other) is supposed to be cryptic, and require "study" to understand it's true meaning.. WHY..?
I mean if "god wanted" us to behave in a certain way, why not make that simple, and easily understandable, so that even young children could get it..?
None of it makes sense.
If "god" wanted us to "worship him", as the bible (and others) claim, why hide...?
And why start the religions, by only talking to one person..? And leave it to him, to spread it around, why not tell everyone, then we'd all be clear, what was wanted.
The JW's more or less explain fossil evidence, in the way you've described, they say those fossils were "planted" by "god" to "test our faith". WHY..?


I have no faith/belief in the god, because I don't think it is concerned with us and it would make as much sense as believing in tables and chairs.

***

Yes. It is a possibility that all of existence and everything in it, could all be a part of one's imagination. A dream, if you like.

There is no way to prove it is or isn't true.

You're struggling with the concept and that's fine. It's a difficult one for many people to understand.

As I said earlier... The only thing I KNOW to be true, that I KNOW exists cannot be proven. EVERYTHING I have or will ever be aware of, could just be a product of my mind.

I don't think that's the case, but it's a fascinating theory.

So yes, my parents, all of history, crime, war, science, the arts, god, death, people on the forums, EVERYTHING could just be something created by my mind... which is why I think there is a possibility, that "god" is within the mind.


I'm not struggling to understand it, I just don't see how it applies, when two people are both making the same claim, but only one of them could be "real"...?
I can understand how a hermit, or someone alone on a desert island, might formulate that hypothesis, but it seems to fail immediately, if there are others.


Edit VVV

BTW, what were your parents? Out of curiosity... If you don't mind me asking...

Just the usual..... One male, one female....
 CharityTrue
Joined: 11/15/2011
Msg: 100
god .... its all in your head say scientists
Posted: 4/30/2012 10:37:25 AM
Are you just prejudiced against the monotheist religions?
What about human sacrifice? A well-known pagan practice expressly forbidden first in the Torah?
Are pagans okay or do you have a problem with them too?
It seems like you're picking on some "God"s, but not others...
I think we should be told..
BTW, what were your parents? Out of curiosity... If you don't mind me asking...
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