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 Pete2205
Joined: 3/18/2011
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EUROPEAN ECONOMIC UNITY DOES NOT WORKPage 3 of 3    (1, 2, 3)
Published: 12:04am, 26th May 2012
Updated: 6:53pm, 26th May 2012


The Home Office is planning for a possible large increase in immigration from Greece and other European Union nations in response to the crisis in the euro, Theresa May has revealed.

The Home Secretary told The Daily Telegraph "work is ongoing" to deal with large movements of people in the event of the break-up of the single currency.

Should Greece leave the euro and go bankrupt, millions of people could lose their jobs and may look for work abroad. There are fears too of the contagion spreading to other weak eurozone countries.

Britain, as a non-eurozone country, may be seen as an attractive alternative.

Mrs May did not indicate the sort of response that was under consideration.

In normal circumstances the Government's hands are tied because EU nationals are largely entitled to live and work anywhere in the single market.

But she said the Government was "looking at the trends" on immigration from struggling European economies. She said there was no evidence of increased migration at present, adding that it was "difficult to say how it is going to develop in coming weeks".

Asked whether emergency immigration controls are under consideration, Mrs May said: "It is right that we do some contingency planning on this (and) that is work that is ongoing."

Prime Minister David Cameron cast doubt on the future of the euro last week when he warned the eurozone that it "either has to make up or it is looking at a potential break-up".

"That's the choice they have to make and it is a choice they can't long put off," he told the Commons.
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A generation and a half ago some half wit decided that it was a great idea if Europe became all cuddly and closer. At first it was about strengthening trade links but over the years these links became laws and the bureaucracy grew until that wonderful institution the "European Parliament" was formed. We could even vote for our own MEP who represented great chunks of Britain and he would help in decision making to make Europe a better, more prosperous place to live. Wow how could it get.....

Well of course initially it was just a small group of European countries that formed the European Economic community. They were countries that generally kept their financial house in order and rather like the Masonic lodge together they would cooperate to make sure each member did reasonably well. But in time those at the top decided that it would be even better if the EEC expanded and poorer less affluent countries were welcomed in with open arms. As the Soviet Union collapsed so Brussels blew kisses and hugged and rubber stamped new members.

Of course then some bright spark decides that we no longer need border controls because hey we are all such good buddies now we should all be able to live and work wherever we like in Europe. The fact that you had no skills and had as much knowledge of the English language as the average hamster mattered not - You were now entitled to come to England, claim benefits, have free or assisted housing and take full advantage of the welfare system created in the Uk after WW2. How good does it get!! I mean who cares about the poor saps in the UK that have paid taxes for years and national insurance - All that lovely dosh is there for everyone in this modern state of Europe to claim.
Just to make life easier we in Britain will print billions of leaflets in various European languages to help you claim benefits too :)
By the way fellow Europeans...Especially those of you in Eastern Europe IF you are kind enough to look for work and have some kind of trade we really dont mind at all if you tell our construction site foreman that you will accept half the going rate for doing building work, carpentry, plumbing, electrical work etc because it will help drive the wage bill down for all the bosses here and also keep our guys under the thumb - The fact that they may be driven on to the dole and in some cases to suicide ? Oh well you win some you lose some hey.

Hey I have a great Idea lets scrap all the European currencies!!! Lets all have the same one!! I mean who needs the frank, the mark, the schilling, the drachma, the zloty, the guilder etc etc- If we all have the same currency its going to make life so much easier isn't it. Oh hang on some of you countries have rather poor infrastructure and your government does tend to spend a bit recklessly ...Or rather your leaders do tend to like to milk the purse a bit and keep themselves looking good dont they ? ....Never mind its ok we will get the likes of the UK, France, Germany etc to throw lots and lots of money at you so we can all be the same :)

Hmmm those nasty Brits wont get rid of the pound and seem to think they have the right to question some of the decisions made in Europe - The fact that the major decisions taken in Europe are made by unelected Eurocrats who wouldnt know the price of a loaf of pint (sorry litre) of milk doesn't matter - I mean we are not important are we.

Oh Noooo Italy, Spain, Ireland, Greece not really coping well with all this Euro finance. Not really generating enough GDP as the rest of the buddies..Oh well they will all have to scale back and cut thousands of jobs, spending on hospitals, schools, education, housing etc etc... I mean ok the rest of Europe ( Meaning really France, UK and Germany) will chuck millions at them and hopefully that will mean everything will be smelling of roses in the garden of Europe again....Might mean a few million more of them out of work and of course they will really really need to get them cutbacks in spending sorted but HEYYYYYY come on think POSITIVE we have to think of the greater good.....Don't we?

Referendum for every voter in Europe to decide if the Euro should be scrapped ? ....Don't be sillyyyyyyyy!! I mean it really HAS worked hasnt it ? We are just having a few teething problems are we not? Don't tell me you dont think its possible to drag 3rd rate European economies to the same level as prosperous European countries !!! And anyway what do we do about all those poor Eurocrats who depend on our taxes to help fund their pensions, 2nd, 3rd homes, international travel, school boarding fees and designer clothes -- Just think how many staff will be thrown out of work and what do we do with all the limos and private jets ?

OMG Now Cameron has had a rush of blood to the head !!!!! He is actually saying that perhaps the Euro wasnt a good idea after all!!!! Even Angela Murky has said that IF Greece leaves the Euro then so be it but that naughty little country will have to sort its mess out itself if it dares do that - She isn't very happy is our Angela !!!

Guess what ?? neither is every freaking taxpayer that has funded this ridiculous crusade that has dragged Europe lemming like for thirty plus years towards a close knit unity no bugger ever wanted!!! Trade with Europe will always happen with or without the Euro. Each country though needs to get back to running its own affairs, controlling its own borders and putting the interests of its own people FIRST. Yes its great that you can travel round Europe on a tour bus and not have a bucket full of currencies and ok so perhaps its easier for companies to trade using the same currency but the fact is ITS NOT WORKING.

If I want to buy something online from the USA then I see what the exchange rate is - I can work out what its going to cost me in Sterling. Just as I can work out how much its costing me if I buy something in France, Germany or Greece. What I do know is in every country where the Euro has been introduced prices have rocketed.

I am interested to know what other Brits think......Especially as Europe is in such a state it looks like hoards of Spanish and Greek workers will be heading to our shores now - And as we HAVE to let them in, just how much effect is it going to have on our own already recession hit economy???
 DAFT_DOG
Joined: 4/23/2011
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EUROPEAN ECONOMIC UNITY DOES NOT WORK
Posted: 5/26/2012 2:26:15 PM
My ! thats a long one ! :O)
 Lorri55
Joined: 10/5/2007
Msg: 3
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EUROPEAN ECONOMIC UNITY DOES NOT WORK
Posted: 5/26/2012 2:29:11 PM
Shallow though this may sound.................far too many words on the page
Ironically enough ...this message is apparently too short !!
 DAFT_DOG
Joined: 4/23/2011
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EUROPEAN ECONOMIC UNITY DOES NOT WORK
Posted: 5/26/2012 2:33:17 PM
Politics is way outside the sphere of both my knowledge, and interest, but,, my personal thoughts are, things will only get worse, we`ve passed the point of no return by normal means, the only way to reverse the damage now, would be if one of the more extreme parties got into power and totally stopped immigration full stop, totally stopped the 100`s of millions a year in foreign aid, which more often than not, simply goes to pad out the pockets of corrupt politicians and officials, and rarely helps the people it was intended to help,

but, i dont see that happening, so, it will get worse.
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 5
EUROPEAN ECONOMIC UNITY DOES NOT WORK
Posted: 5/26/2012 8:09:39 PM

Should Greece leave the euro and go bankrupt, millions of people could lose their jobs and may look for work abroad. There are fears too of the contagion spreading to other weak eurozone countries.


@OP

If your pple are that concerned about a big wave of immigrants stemming from bankrupcy in the Euro-zone then don't let them in when they knock on your door; it is that simple!

secondly, if the UK is that averse to the EU, then WTF are you still part of it?

It just seems to me that you just want the benefits of it, but don't want to have any of the risks!
IF the UK is content by just sitting on the side-lines then they should let those with real balls handle the current problem, and not just make empty statements from the stands
 Graffiti_Poet
Joined: 1/2/2011
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Posted: 5/27/2012 12:34:58 AM
I'm not too sure what the OP means by "not working" but from my perspective every country who is a member of the EU has benefitted massively from membership both economically and socially. It is far too often forgotten just what a basket case the UK was when we were literally begging to be let in and that is reflected by the 2:1 vote in favour of joining all those years ago. Joining the EU, or EEC as it was then changed the UK from being much like Greece is today into being one of the top five economies in the world and the EU continues to this day to create hundreds of thousands of jobs and new businesses here in Britain every year.

The EU has also helped to bring about one of the longest periods without war ever seen on the European continent and successfully brought about regime change in many of the former USSR states for what has been a comparatively miniscule cost in both blood and treasure when compared to the same regime change in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere since. Each of those states has cost little more than €4bn to bring about sufficient change so that they all now easily meet the Copenhagen criteria which is a pre-requisite for membership and are all now compliant to international human rights laws and enjoy freedoms their citizens could only have dreamed about during their years under Soviet rule.

The Euro has also been a major success in that it is clearly the strongest currency in the world and it's current troubles have shown more than anything else that the countries of Europe, Britain soon to be included, are far better off when we stick together and share a common currency than we ever were / are with each nation having a separate and uncontrollable currency of their own. It will come as no surprise to see the UK adopt the Euro within a few short years and even sooner than that if Scotland votes for independence.

IMO, one of the most beneficial improvements the EU has brought about for it's members is the removal of internal borders between countries. Being free to roam where we wish to roam is a fundamental basic human right and the borders between member states are now, as they should be, little more than lines on a map that offer no more barrier to people wishing to cross them than those between the member states of the UK.

Whilst the current, highly over emphasised, problems in the EU are no doubt of some concern, mostly to the financial services sector and politicians, for most of us even the worst case scenario of Greece leaving the Euro will be the same damp squib that the Y2K Millenium bug was. IMO there will be little or no mass migrations of people from anywhere to anywhere, no more than there was when the borders first open up between East & West Germany or between any of the members, new or old, of the EU.

Troubles in the Eurozone and in the EU are being greatly exagerated as was the so-called near collapse of the world banking systems in order to distract people from the failings of politicians and the criminality of our banking and financial services sectors IMO.
 monty336
Joined: 12/29/2008
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Posted: 5/27/2012 12:55:11 AM
we already have a unemployment problem of our own,well in this weeks sun paper they are as usual taking all the credit for finding thousands of jobs on their roadshow, but if you look carefully they are nearly all service industry, and people from overseas wont be paying much tax as i think its about 9k or above before you pay, at our place we had polish plumbers, on 7 quid a hour, digs payed , 15 quid a day tax free expenses, plus minibus to site, flights payed every 10 weeks, main contractor will claim a large chunk in tax on expenses, workers will pay hardly any tax, as only short contracts. a friend of mine wanted to take a gift abroad for her friend something english, i said a ub40
 Graffiti_Poet
Joined: 1/2/2011
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Posted: 5/27/2012 3:28:28 AM
The reason you have to show your passport or have restrictions placed upon your purchases OneOnOwn is because various countries, and particularly the UK, have opted for a number of opt outs allowed through negotiations. The checking of passports into and out of the UK is entirely a UK requirement demanded by our government who like to keep very close tabs on our population so that they know who you are, where you are going, when you will be back and what you buy or do not buy when you are there. They just like to feel that they are our masters and controllers and to know what we are up to. The checking of passports at points of entry and egress from the UK is one of the most pointless, expensive and un-necessary things we do as a country.

The EU has never been about tax harmonisation of any form which remains one of the few nationally determined criteria of EU member states. That's why a packet of fags here in the UK is £6 and the same cigarrettes, maniufactured by the same company costs as little as £1.50 in many other countries. It is the fear that the chancellor would lose vast amounts of money that we here chose to opt out of anything to do with tax controls or setting. The other thing you mention, the harmonisation of trade regulations and rules has indeed resulted in lots of laws being indroduced across the whole economic area, in fact the body of such legislation now numbers in excess of 80,000 such laws. Whilst this is undoubtedly over kill it is no different than the legislature here in the UK. Parliament is creating still hundreds of laws on an almost daily basis, most if not all created in exactly the same way as EU law is and many of which are just as worthless and ineffective as any of the EU ones. Having said that though they, the EU laws, are actually necessary so that people wishing to buy or sell across the economic area can have confidence that goods and services bought and sold have the same rights, protections and quality standards applied to them regardless of the country they are to be bought in or sold too. The laws are in actual reality no different to the many laws and rules that were previously put in place throught the adoption of inttiatives such as the British Standard Kite mark and QS9000 quality awards.

Every country does not do as it wants, the vast majority of laws and contracts are implemented by all members as if they were not then there would be no EU at all. As I said, there are opt outs, there is rule breaking and rule bending as there are in all things money related but on the whole the rules are applied fairly, obeyed by most and are a vital key in helping the European economic area in being the success story it has been, it still is and will continue to be for many years to come IMO..............
 Richard_of_York
Joined: 12/4/2010
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Posted: 5/27/2012 3:31:45 AM
European economic cooperation, through the EEC, EC and then EU, does work. The common market has improved life for all Europeans by boosting trade between our countries.

The Euro, however, is showing the strain of a fundamental flaw: you can't have economic policy without the ability to control the money supply. Manipulating inflation and interest rates by printing more or less money (or issuing bonds, more likely, but in essence the same thing) is something which governments all round the world use to stabilise economies, but Eurozone countries can't do that, because Euro inflation is controlled by the ECB and economic policy is made by national parliaments.

The founders realised this which is why the Euro had strict entry criteria – countries had to have similar economies and similar policies to deficit spending, inflation etc. But then those entry criteria were waived for Greece for political reasons. We're seeing the fallout from that now: Greece continued to deficit spend despite the Eurozone rules and now they're in a hole which they can't devalue their way out of because they don't control their currency.

There are two answers: full political federation to go with the common currency, or currency breakup, if not at the level of nations then at least at the level of groups of nations with similar economic policies and attitudes. (That would be roughly speaking South, North-West and East.) I doubt any European nation would vote for the first so the second seems inevitable ... though of course some politicians with vested interests will delay it as long as possible, possibly by throwing yet more euros into the Greek toilet.
 badge73
Joined: 1/17/2009
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Posted: 5/27/2012 4:35:37 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18226128

lloyds of london preparing for the collapse of the euro, which a few economics are predicting will happen with in a couple of years as the german people wont want to keep paying to bail out other countries, remember your history? what happened when the last time germany was under financial pressure ....

once greece leaves the other states will look at what happens and do the same thing, spain, portugual and would not be surprised if ireland and italy look at that option as well.
 motownmaniax
Joined: 8/13/2006
Msg: 11
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Posted: 5/27/2012 5:11:49 AM
There's nothing wrong with the concept of the Euro. Having just one currency "does" make the economics easier because is saves time and simplifies financial exchange. The problem is not the Euro, but the policies of the countries having the current problems. Too much spending, debt obligation, and too little revenue. Also, political consolidation "must" go hand-in-hand with the economic. The structural flaws in the zone has been more than apparent over the years but countries didn't want to face them. Whether not just Greece but Italy or Spain leaves is still up for grabs. Guess we'll find out over the next few months.
 Pete2205
Joined: 3/18/2011
Msg: 12
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Posted: 5/27/2012 2:13:27 PM
In the "Swinging" 1960s prior to joining the EC Britain thrived : That's an economic fact. One reply states that thanks to the EEC Europe had not had another war ...Hmmm we didn't have another war prior to joining either ...Do you assume that by not being part of the EEC we leave ourselves open to invasion?
We get less from the EEC than we contribute - THATS a fact.
Does it shock you that the wealthiest countries in Europe are NOT members of the EEC
Its a FACT that wages HAVE been driven down by the influx of far eastern workers happy to work for a lot less money than was being paid to British workers - Ask the next out of work British skilled worker you meet why he is out of work!

We ARE a haven for economic migrants and France has done nothing at all to help stem the flow of illegal trying to board lorries at the Channel ports. Go to any job centre and see the number of people signing on who cannot speak a word of English (And no inclination to do so)

Cliftonville in Kent is known as Kosoville now due to the high influx of illegals - And FACT the crime rates in areas where there has been a high influx of economic migrants HAS riven faster than ever before.
And who says that if there was a referendum tomorrow the UK would not pull out of Europe?Do you think the rest of Europe would suddenly stop trading with the UK? ......They have to we are too big a market for them not to!
One poster says the Euro is one of the world's strongest currencies? So how come its lost 25 cents against the Pound in recent months....? The 1 Euro = £1 has well and truly bit the dust.

Why should we not protect our borders? We are an island and that fact protected us from invasion from Germany in WW2 while France, Belgium, Holland, Scandinavia were beaten in no time that stretch of water protected us. So what have we done

Some patronising poster wrote that Britain cant survive without immigration and that many Brits migrate abroad.
Try migrating to the USA, New Zealand, Australia, Canada without skills that country wants, without passing stringent health and criminal record checks. Why should we allow unskilled people who do not have basic grasp of the English language into our country? What do we get for letting them in? - Nothing except a net loss.

Why should we house them, pay welfare benefits to them and give them and their families free education and medical treatment? Its our taxes that are paying for all that while we have British pensioners going without heat in winter, we have the highest rate of youth unemployment we have ever known and we have a health system that is buckling under the pressure of an engineered massive growth in population fuelled by an ever increasing net growth in immigration. - THATS a FACT

Lets follow Australia: No entry for migrants unless you meet one of many criteria, some being, No entry if there has been 12 months imprisonment in the last five years. No entry unless you have the skills needed or are, within 9 months going to marry an Australian citizen. No welfare benefits for TWO years. No definite right to state housing.
No right to free medical or hospital care. Deportation if convicted of an offence.

And as for the Human rights act that has allowed the likes of Abu Hamza and every criminal that has abused the freedom he or she enjoyed to the detriment of every other law abiding citizen - Scrap it and bring in a British bill of rights. The European Court of Human rights costs us millions of pounds each year - Has it worked or has it just been another millstone round the neck of the British taxpayer ?

We survived before Europe and we will survive after it has collapsed into a bureaucratic financial mess.
Two Euros for a pound wont be too far away :)
 soverncomfort
Joined: 11/29/2011
Msg: 13
EUROPEAN ECONOMIC UNITY DOES NOT WORK
Posted: 5/27/2012 5:58:25 PM
Msg12 ....the Euro has NOT been a massive success, the current situation highlights that. The issues in europe have nothing to do with EU membership. The Euro was a ridiculous idea to start with and I predicted that these problems might occur many years ago which is why Im glad we stuck with the pound.

Personally, the euro should be scrapped ....it may mean a few years of difficulty but can anyone really see things getting better as it is with bailout after bailout and billions being thrown down the plughole to rescue countries that cant be saved. As things stand, the euro is on its way to a slow painful death causing economical nightmares in countries across europe, and will continue to do so as long as they try to hold onto it.

All it was going to take was a recession in one country to spread like disease across europe because all these countries are trading in one currency.

Unfortunately, the arrogance at government level in these countries means they dont want to lose face so will keep on bailing out anyone in trouble until there is no money left to do so ....unfortunately this affects us as we are contributing to help, a necessity of our trade links and the effect of everything crashing on the UK's own financial institutions and hence our own economy.

As for immigration, well what can we do? I dont have the answers there but all I know that the Euro crisis is a disaster that has been waiting to happen since its inception.
 soverncomfort
Joined: 11/29/2011
Msg: 14
EUROPEAN ECONOMIC UNITY DOES NOT WORK
Posted: 5/27/2012 6:10:27 PM
This is a brilliant thread and most have made some fantastic points ...Marco4444 & PeteSomething to name but two ....I am very anti the euro and want it gone so that in time the economy in europe can rebuild. But some of the points made against EU membership are extremely valid though I believe there have been benefits as well ceetainly in trade.

Its too late to get too into this but will enjoy reading some more thoughts on this tomorrow.
 Pete2205
Joined: 3/18/2011
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Posted: 5/28/2012 3:13:00 PM
Message 34 from Toreador from Dublin......

What a gorgeous city you live in !! I love Dublin especially Temple Bar, The cafes and the people I have been there several times staying at Jurys opposite Christchurch and latterly at Jacksons court near St Stephens Park.

I am amazed you think being part of the EEC is so wonderful as you live in a country that has already been bailed out by Europe including the UK to the tune of billions...Without which you would be trying to catch sprats from the river Liffey on rod and line to starve off starvation.

When I visited Dublin in 2000 it was a prosperous city along with the rest of Ireland, unemployment was low and the Punt was a great currency that worked well for you people and was at a rate that encouraged tourism and growth....

Then you joined the Euro.....My god prices shot through the roof and admit it times are not so good in the Emerald Isle :) When I took my then wife to Dublin in 2010 it was very expensive ...It was very noticeable that the city was not as busy as I found it in 2002, 2005 and 2007 and almost a different city altogether than When I first crossed the Irish Sea in 2000. Several bars and cafes had closed. Places where usually you had a job finding a seat were now half empty.

For sale or let boards were a plenty in the main streets and over a Guinness (Naturally) I talked to a guy who worked in recruitment who told me in no uncertain terms that unemployment was higher now than in living memory, wages were being driven down due to the influx of migrants from other countries who were taking up rental properties and sharing the living expense in a three bedroom house with anything up to a dozen fellow migrants. They were then able to work at lower rates. His agency had actually taken on someone who was fluent in Polish and Bulgarian who could help theses people into work at the detriment of native Irish men and women.

Jobs in tourism were far fewer than when the Punt was the currency as again migrants were happy to work as waiters and housekeepers for less than the minimum wage. Many hotels have staff working part time now as there are far fewer short term breaks being taken in Dublin by people in the UK.

So Toreador from Dublin I am very surprised that living in a country that has gone from being fairly prosperous to the verge of bankruptcy you think the EEC is such a wonderful institution ....
 Graffiti_Poet
Joined: 1/2/2011
Msg: 16
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Posted: 5/29/2012 3:01:16 AM
I can well see how your assessment of the Euro given the current problems and our predominantly anti EU newspapers would seem to have some merit Soverncomfort, we are after all, all being mislead by a smoke and mirrors campaign the likes of which we have not seen since the Iraq war debacle when it comes to the Euro and it's struggles. I do however find your claim to have predicted it some years ago quite interesting and wonder on what determinations you were able to come to that conclusion.

Throughout the history of the world there have been many examples of nations joining together to share a common currency or at the very least pegging their own currencies to that of another nation. As far as I am aware not a single one of those monetary unions has ever failed and most of them have continued for long periods of time and still continue to survive and prosper to this day. The pound and the American dollar are both examples of the success and prosperity that such unions always bring. If we look at the Eurozone area prior to the world wide economic crash caused by the UK and American criminal financial services sectors we can see that massive benefits were enjoyed by all EZ members as well as many closely associated non member states such as the UK and other EU members. In every case each EZ nation have enjoyed large increases in GDP, improved public services, lower unemployment, lower poverty levels and all the other benefits that invariably come with increased national wealth. These benefits were, and still are, profligate in every EU member state and there are still to this day many countries who are actively seeking to join the Euro. Despite it's current short term difficulties not a single country is showing any signs of wanting to leave it.

I would be very interested to hear on what basis you managed to come to your assessment of the Euro's flawed inception if it is based on anything other than a general dislike or distrust of anything EU that we are all exposed to and encouraged to believe in by a handfull of less than honest media barons.

As for immigration, the solution to the problem is, as it as always been, very simple. Open up our borders to allow free and unfettered access to everyone and anyone who wishes to come here for a holiday, to work or to live and we will all reap the benefits of that IMO.
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 17
EUROPEAN ECONOMIC UNITY DOES NOT WORK
Posted: 5/29/2012 10:36:28 AM
Some patronising poster wrote that Britain cant survive without immigration and that many Brits migrate abroad.
Try migrating to the USA, New Zealand, Australia, Canada without skills that country wants, without passing stringent health and criminal record checks. Why should we allow unskilled people who do not have basic grasp of the English language into our country? What do we get for letting them in? - Nothing except a net loss.

There are approximately 5.5 million Brits, permanently settled in other countries (That's about 10% of the population)
Almost 1 Million in Spain alone. Have you seen their economy..?
1/4 Million in France.
Lastly, immigrants are net contributors to the economy.
If you add up all we spend, they produce slightly more in revenue.
This has always been the case. You might not like that, but it's a FACT.
The economies of all the countries you mention, have been built in immigrant labour.

The reason our economies are in the sh1tter, is because the banks all made themselves insolvent, and then our govt's borrowed the money to bail them out.
Meanwhile, they continue to pay themselves massive bonuses.
And to keep all of their assets, property portfolios, and massive pension pots.
Whilst the poorest are told to "tighten their belts".

The only way out of this IMO., is to liquidate all of the assets, of those who's gambling debts we have been saddled with.
If you're blaming the poorest in our societies, for our current woes, ("Immigrants", lazy workers, etc etc), you haven't been paying attention.
Some truly laughable 'knee-jerk reactions' here.

There is still the same amount of money about, as ever. The wealth has simply 'condensed' into the hands of fewer and fewer individuals...
Wake up.


 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 18
EUROPEAN ECONOMIC UNITY DOES NOT WORK
Posted: 5/30/2012 11:29:54 AM

and as for Jo Van's 'clever' response.

Thank you.

There ARE people in this country with a few brain cells who DON'T react in 'knee-jerk fashion, HAVE thought it through, HAVE been against the idea of a 'Common Market' from its inception, and some like myself don't even buy a newspaper (or should that be 'comic' ?) let alone allow themselves to be influenced by media Barons.

And yet here you are, claiming that immigrants are a "net loss", when in reality, they are net contributors to the economy.
If you're not getting your hysterical,(not to mention incorrect) " information" from the media, where are you getting it..?
Or are you just making it up, and hoping that everyone will join in, and grab their pitchforks and torches..?
I noticed you chose to ignore the fact that almost 1 million Brit's live in Spain, who's economy is far worse than ours.
Are you suggesting that all ex-pats are forcibly repatriated..? If so, there'll be almost Five and a half million more Brits here.

You also ignored, in your rant about "English jobs", that most manufacturing, for British-owned companies, (like Dyson) have moved to wherever the labour costs are cheapest. (Malaysia in his case, I think)
You see, "Johnny Foreigner" doesn't need to come here to take your jobs, your English companies have already sold your jobs, to the lowest bidder!

And even if the company is here, like Vodaphone, Smith-Klein-Beecham, Top Shop, etc etc. they all take their profits overseas. Like "Sir" Phillip Green, who paid his wife a £1.2 Billion "dividend" one year, and avoided the £284 Million in tax, in this country! It's no wonder he's advising the Govt on "saving money"!



It's not just about economics, it's about a country losing its independence and having its culture destroyed,

I 'bumped' an old thread recently, about "British Culture". The truth is, whether it's our language, or our customs, you wouldn't be able to define "British Culture".
Eg. Tea -China and India.
Religion - The middle east, and Rome.
Language - Latin and Germanic, and French.
Christmas trees- Germany.
Father Christmas- Coca~Cola
Etc., etc...

This country is founded on the customs we imported from elsewhere.

I CARE about my country, and the reason hundreds of thousands of Britons lost their lives in defence of our heritage and way of life....a stand which bankrupted us and saved the skins of some of the arrogant twots across the Channel.

Millions of those "arrogant twots" across the channel died in defence of your heritage too.
Primarily because Chamberlain tried to appease Hitler, so they found themselves "playing at home" for the duration of the war, in Czechoslovakia, for example, because the aristocracy here agreed with his "ubermensch" drivel. Including the King.
Learn some history, before you start bleating about "heritage".

WW2 was based on the same sort of tribal, racist, xenophobic drivel, which is so apparent in many of the views I see expressed today.
It was a mistake then, it's still a mistake today.
 Pete2205
Joined: 3/18/2011
Msg: 19
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History
EUROPEAN ECONOMIC UNITY DOES NOT WORK
Posted: 5/31/2012 11:59:04 AM
We are digressing here ...

Yes Fred The EEC has spawned out of the EU and as has been said countries that have been less than honest at best and corrupt at the extreme have been allowed to join ....Greece being a good example. Other countries have been bailed out and Euro politicians are running round like headless chickens wondering how on Earth to restore confidence in a currency and ideal that fewer and fewer people want.

EIGHT HUNDRED TRILLION EUROS given out to countries in loans and grants to try and stableise their local economies!! What Does Euro expect in return? Severe cutbacks to the extent that thousands upon thusands of people are being thrown out of work, massive cut backs in education, health and social services. Decreases in social benefit and indirect taxes being forced on companies and individuals at every opportunity.

I have always said that there is NOTHING wrong with immigration, its needed as we do not produce enough skilled and professional people in certain areas of commerce and public sector . What we DONT need is unskilled economic migrants flooding through our borders who have nothing to offer other than a begging bowl. Migrants that have little interest in our culture or learning our language. We are not looking after our own indiginous population with regards to housing, education and medical services properly its upsurd that we have an open door policy to Europe.

As for the idiot who seems to thing were all Europhobes and racist as well as influenced by the media - I would ask him to look at what is hppening in the streets of this country. A friend of mine teaches at a primary school in London and tells me that one of the biggest problems he has is language. In many classes English is not the first language and so much as he and others try to teach English the work is undone at home where often no one speaks it!! The result is that a great number of hours are spent not teaching specific subjects but getting pupils to a point where they have enough grasp of the English language where they can actually start to study!

I maintain that if the UK left the EEC it would not suffer at all. Sterling is still our currency and thank god we kept it. If we leave Europe we willo still trade with them. They will still seek to export to us - They cant afford not to!

1.We need to dump the Human rights act (I See Qutada has managed to use it to stay here at least another six months) and bring in a British Bill of Rights.

2. We need to speed up deportation of Europeon criminals held in our prisons - They are someone elses social scum not ours.

3. We need to start investing in our own economy not others - We need a government education and training department that has a remit which is simply to invesigate skills shortages at regional level just as Australia and Canada does . From that they can then look at funding local colleges and providing training that meet those gaps we have in the skills sector.

4. Yes we do need immigration but I cannot just hop on a plane and expect Australia, New Zealand, Canada or USA to provide me with free housing, education, welfare benefits and freedom to compete in the local jobs market with their indiginous population - They expect me to have a trade that is NEEDED. They expect me to have medical checks, criminal record checks and either a sponsor or sufficient funds to ensure I can pay my way for up to two years . As a tax payer of this country why should I not expect the government of my country to lay down the same rules for people that want to come here?

5. We NEED to adopt the same immigration criteria as Australia etc and enforce our borders properly.We HAVE to have sufficient customs immigration personel to be able to turn away at passport control those that did do not have the right to come here. UK limited is not a registered charity we have enough issues of our own and yes, that includes dealing with those thst WONT work who are British born.

This is the time (While Ms Merkel and co are running round in a panic wondering how on Earth to rescue the Franko Germanic state of Europe from collapse) to start thinking about our own future. This is the time to start thinking more about Britain Plc . We are being battered on TV with adverts telling us to stay at home, have British holidays, dont go to Spain, France, Portugal etc but stay here and put our money into British tourism?

Thats all good and perhaps they should now start a new advertising campaign promoting British Industry, Encouraging employers to look at ways they could take on British youngsters. We should be screaming the high level of workmanship from British trades people - And trust me if you have travelled and seen the shoddy building work in Greece, Portugal, Spain etc then you would recognise just how damn good we are are making and building things - IF we are given the training and opportunity to do it.

Europe has NOT worked for Britain its time to get off this over bearocratic sinking ship and start rowing our own boat again.
 soverncomfort
Joined: 11/29/2011
Msg: 20
EUROPEAN ECONOMIC UNITY DOES NOT WORK
Posted: 6/1/2012 11:07:23 AM
Graffiti ...Im sure I am not alone in predicting the euro would not have a very happy time. And no its not based on media scaremongering. I am my own person and have my own opinions. For me, if 17 countries in one continent take on one currency, then they are all subject to share any economic problems. Is that a good thing? Look around ...of course it isn't.

Why are countries not wanting to leave? Because to leave would mean many years of trying to recover value to their previous currency. I say that in very simple terms as I am short of time but hope you get it.
 daver987654
Joined: 11/2/2011
Msg: 21
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History
EUROPEAN ECONOMIC UNITY DOES NOT WORK
Posted: 6/2/2012 8:07:49 AM

The EU has also helped to bring about one of the longest periods without war ever seen on the European continent and successfully brought about regime change in many of the former USSR states


I think you'll find it was the Allied Forces after the 2nd World War stationed in Europe and Germany in particular that enforced the peace and faced the communist threat down allowing Europeans the space to learn to live together. Television and cheap travel have allowed us to understand that people in other countries are no different to ourselves and they do more for world peace than the EU ever will.
 Graffiti_Poet
Joined: 1/2/2011
Msg: 22
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History
EUROPEAN ECONOMIC UNITY DOES NOT WORK
Posted: 6/3/2012 1:19:19 AM
You say you are not alone Soverncomfort and right now today, with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight you are correct but back then you were alone or at least almost alone. I can remember being very heavily involved in the campaign to have the UK adopt the Euro and I can say with some confidence that none of the worlds financial organisations or governments took your line when it came to the Euro. Reports from the IMF, the world bank, the WTO, the UN, UNESCO and UNICEF, the European Central Bank, the BoE and every other major financial institution, government or serious economist that I am aware of had any such reservations about it. In fact the only concerns I ever heard raised were from Jack Straw and a few other UK politians who's major concerns seemed to be for their own liberty once the UK accounts were exposed to public scrutiny knowing as they did that our accounts were, and still are, the most corrupt, misleading and defrauded accounts of any major economy.

You say look around but look around at what?. History is repleat with examples of countries and nations that have gone down the road of monetary union or pegging their currency to one that is stronger than their own would be as a stand alone currency. I cannot think of a single example of such a move every failing whether is the US$, the UK£ or any of the other major world currencies. If you can think of one I would be interested to know which one it is.

There are some valid comments being made about some EZ members not being truthful in their national accounts and rightly saying that the entry criteria were not being met at the time of joining. This is IMO 100% true, however it was not just the current EU/EZ countries who are in difficulty that were guilty of this, most member states did not meet them and in particular neither Germany, France nor the UK, the three largest EU economies, met them. Whilst I accept that I know very little about the German and French national accounts I can say with 100% certainty that the UK accounts are now, and were then, every bit as fraudulent as those of Greece, Spain and Italy and that issues such as tax avoidance, tax evasion and tax fraud are every bit as endemic here as they were in the PIIGS at the time of joining the EZ.....GP
 Pete2205
Joined: 3/18/2011
Msg: 23
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History
EUROPEAN ECONOMIC UNITY DOES NOT WORK
Posted: 6/11/2012 12:21:54 PM
I can say with 100% certainty that the UK accounts are now, and were then, every bit as fraudulent as those of Greece, Spain and Italy and that issues such as tax avoidance, tax evasion and tax fraud are every bit as endemic here as they were in the PIIGS at the time of joining the EZ.....GP

I would like you to support that statement with evidence. As you say with "100% certainty" back it up.

Spain are about top be bailede out to the tune of 100 million Euros and already there are doubts that Spain has the ability to pay it back.

Greece has been bailed out.

Ireland has been bailed out.

Portugal, Italy too ...Who is next.... ? And its the taxpayer of other countries that ultimatly doing the bail out.

I stand by what I said in my last post. Monetary union is NOT working. This isnt a hiccup this is not some blip. The Euro is a dead duck. How many more countries have to be bailed out before the Euro fanatics accept that it would be in the best interests of all to reintroduce soveriegn currencies and allow each to find its natural value against each other.

If we pulled out of the EEC tomorrow Europe would still trade with us because it HAS to. I am waiting for someone to address the points I raised regarding immigration and my belief that UK should follow the Australian model in its entirety. Just why should the UK be providing social housing, welfare benefits and free medical care to any Europeon who enters the UK....And why do I need travel insurance when I travel in Europe -- Should I not be able to get it free too wherever I go? .....Or is this a one sided deal?

As for the muppets waving the race card - Its not about race at all - Controlled structured immigration as I outlined in my previous post is not based on colour or creed at all. why do people just cherry pick statements to attack instead of reading a whole post and addressing all the points made ?
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 24
EUROPEAN ECONOMIC UNITY DOES NOT WORK
Posted: 6/12/2012 10:07:55 AM

Do you live in a fantasy world? Seriously, the British who migrated to Spain brought villas and property which created demand in an otherwise stagnant Spanish property market. Our money created a market and jobs for the Spanish people living there. There is no benefits system available to British foreigners and on top of that we have to pay a foreigners tax on property and businesses. Despite the unfair taxes we still managed to transform the whole Costa Del Sol.

It's always best to know what you're talking about, and you clearly don't.
One million Brit's there, and yet their unemployment rate is 25%, and 50% amongst the young. Their economy, like ours, in it's second recession, and the banks there, having to be bailed out, yet again, this time to the tune of E100,000,000,000,000.
And are the Brit's fleeing death, torture? have they had members of their families killed or tortured..? Do they risk certain death because of their political views, or their sexual orientation..?
No.
They're there because they don't like the English weather.
And the 60 odd thousand pensioners there, are putting a huge strain on their health system, and many doctors there have complained, because of the extra costs of interpreters, because, despite living there for several years, very few of them have bothered to learn Spanish.
This is because they live in little all-English enclaves, with English Shops, English hairdressers, English Estate Agents, English tradespeople, and all English neighbours.
Sound familiar..>?
Oh. and benefits are available to EU members, anywhere in the EU. D'uh! Otherwise we wouldn't have to pay them when they come here.

If your theory about immigration being so great is true then how come the streets of East London aren't paved with gold? All I see there is absolute poverty, bar a few market traders, money exchanges and claims companies the absolute majority are unemployed and living on handouts from the government.

And finally for the hundredth time: Immigrants are net contributors to the economy, they earn the country more than they cost.
The problem with these EDL/BNP/Daily Wail inspired, anti immigration rants, is that they ignore the 5.5 million Brits living in other countries. (That's permanently!)
(That's almost 10% of the entire population. If India did that, it would be 120Million people!)

Puerto Banus is a millionairs play ground that has been built by investment from western europe.

Two things:
1/. Spain is not only in "Western Europe", it's the furthest "Western" you can get.
2/. See if you can take a wild guess at WHY all the banks in Spain, are having to be bailed-out.

These non productive areas are the work of the labour party, who are only interested in "human rights".

You've already admitted that you only write sh1t like that, to try and "wind people up", specifically me.
That's just trolling. If I were a cry-baby, I'd report that.

Seriously, stop watching BBC documentaries, they are biased to the extreme, surely as an adult with average intelligence you can see this.

"Seriously"..? I am an adult, so I don't watch "Little Charlie Bear",
so I neither think it's "biased", nor that it's a "documentary".

I would recommend you start watching "Newsnight", and stop believing Viscount Rothermere's version of events.

The EU is a collection of countries, all economically fvcked [Med. Term], because each of their individual banks, all gambled themselves insolvent, but then "Nationalised" the debt.

The banks, all individually vociferously opposed to any form of "socialism", indeed, the very epitomes of "capitalism", all suddenly and simultaneously, saw the benefits of socialism.

So now we work harder to pay their losses, while they lost nothing, and continue to pay themselves Billions in bonuses.
All "austerity" measures, in all countries, are a result of the banks gambling the deposits of ordinary people, and losing.
Until people wake up to that fact, nothing will change, and things will continue to get worse.
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 25
EUROPEAN ECONOMIC UNITY DOES NOT WORK
Posted: 6/12/2012 3:32:54 PM


Immigrants are net contributors to the economy, they earn the country more than they cost.



This statement is at variance with a Parliamentary committee that reported in 2008 which concluded – and I quote – ‘Our overall conclusion is that the economic benefits of net immigration to the resident population are small and close to zero in the long run'. The House of Lords committee called into question the then Labour Government's claims that foreign workers added £6 billion each year to the wealth of the nation.

(My bold)
Not at all "at variance", unless you have some problem understanding the phrase net contributors.
I know full-well that it's only a small net benefit, but it certainly isn't a net cost, so all the people who keep repeating all this BS about "immigrants being a drain on the economy" need to stop saying it, because it is simply incorrect.
They are a net benefit. It may only average out at 60p per year each, but that's still a benefit.
What part are you struggling to understand..?

A rant based more on ideological dogma than fact. The EU is a collection of countries some of them economically crippled for generations to come because by signing up to the Euro 'Project' politicians allowed hubris to overcome economic reality.

We've been over this once before. The banking bail-out doubled this country's debt. Some other countries fared even worse.

I have no "ideological dogma" which states that "banks should be allowed to gamble their customer's money, lose it, and then go 'cap-in-hand' to their respective governments, for money".
Capitalism failed.
So they "socialised" their debts.

You can keep trotting out the same old 'sound-bites', but the current crisis had nothing to do with the "hubris" of politicians, and everything to do with the greed of bankers, who couldn't buy CDO', and SIV's with 13% yields, from Lehman Bros, fast enough.
All "Rated AAA" by "Standard & Poor", and "Moodies", and the other credit ratings agencies.
(The same credit ratings agencies who now "downgrading" the credit ratings on Entire Countries, like Spain, because they don't like the levels of their debt. )
-The debt they'd accumulated by bailing out the banks who'd lost their shirts, buying those same AAA rated "CDO's".

So we now have "Austerity measures" imposed on the very poorest, at the behest of the "markets" and credit ratings agencies, who all made billions during the boom times, but lost nothing, when the bust came, because it was added to the nation's debts.
When the cuts bite here, we'll see the same sort of civil unrest we're seeing in Greece, and Spain, and France.
And 20% fewer police, to deal with it.
The "near perfect storm" is brewing.

The general public aren't stupid, all the information is there, if you care to look for it.
I'm not making this sh1t up.
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