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Joined: 9/13/2009
Msg: 188
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Will Capitalism Fail?Page 10 of 11    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11)

The type of government people develop comes from their dna. Look around the world and you will see that people with similar dna develop similar governments. Whites tend toward capitalism. Orientals tend toward communism. Blacks tend toward dictatorships. Muslims tend toward theocracies. etc etc. It answers a lot of questions, such as, why people of one race have a signifcantly greater representation of their race in countries whose laws were developed by another race. It doesn't necessarily make one better or worse than another, but it does make them significantly different.

It's hard to believe people actually exist that make these ^^^ kinds of 'deductions'.
The complete absence of sense is breathtaking. As is the perversion of genetics, the incomprehension regarding rational chains of cause and effect, and the corruption of the concept of 'evidence'.

Perhaps if capitalism fails it will be due to neglect of education standards.
 want to travel
Joined: 7/29/2006
Msg: 189
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Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 6/9/2012 10:58:20 AM
"i was blessed to be born in a republic, with a capitalist system"
the key word might just be was.....!
The USA, was never perfect, but it was this planet s last best hope
(my opinion)
the few decades,have shown the systematic take over, of the republic, by special interests
namely,the globalization of capital
if someone takes a step back, and just steps back and looks at what the politicians are doing.... who and what they are representing, you will not find any real major difference between them
but you will find a lot of policies that they have in common,
the world is entering into a new type of feudalism
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 190
Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 6/9/2012 11:56:47 AM
"I think the big creeps running the show are going to do the push for a world currency now."

How on earth, do you get there, from what is going on globally?

First the banks make quite a bit of money from currency swaps, currency exchanges for large corporations. Next with China manipulating their currency, do you think they would accept a universal currency for payments and debits? With all the problems we knew going in, they still went forward with the Euro, which because of different cultures and governments has brought that currency to the door of ruin. The money made alone on petro dollars would make the USA take pause before allowing it here.

The rest of what you said has merely to do with insepid GREED...what starts as a fairly good idea and practice, is then played out to the lowest common denominator by greedy people, who are charlatans!

I can agree with "Irreponsible fools", led by our regulators, our congress.
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 191
Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 6/9/2012 7:59:23 PM
"The elites would love to institute a world currency"

By that, I take it you mean the most rich and powerful, when you say elite.

A rich and powerful person is so, by the nature of the economy he operates in. A German elite would be loathe to surrender his advantage in the european theatre. A russian who can buy or manipulate value, because he has the freedom to pay in gold or dollars, would be loathe to transfer that power, and get nothing in return.

Value would then simply be value, and the cost of goods and services would command different prices where ever one finds themselves, in terms of any thing.

This of course discounts the 800 pound gorilla in the room, China. Who through currency manipulation tries to slant all trade in their favor, whether export or import. Since we are acting all weak sister with them and not calling them on it. Why would THEY want such a thing to take place? The way the game is played now, they sell they win, they buy they win, it doesn't get better than that. With China making vast investments overseas, this would set the game to par and not advantage china.

Even if the dollar crashed, I'm fairly sure the powers that be, would resurrect it. Maybe on a different value format, but still the dollar. Since we currently owe China $1.1 TRILLION, suppose a world currency was set up, and they ended up with us owing them 750 billion, now how do you think that would sit with them?

No, not likely, in fact less likely with all the foreign trade now ongoing...
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 192
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Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 6/9/2012 8:36:18 PM

Well, it may have been the secret reason why, but it's not going to come out because even the supreme court is in the bag for the cover up.

Are you claiming the Supreme Court of the U.S. has conspired to cover up some wrongdoing involving the invasion of Iraq? If so, what is that wrongdoing, exactly? And what evidence do you have that the justices conspired to cover it up? Or maybe this dastardly government conspiracy is just something you made up.


Our moneymen setup the petro dollar trade for our advantage.
In fact, some say that Saddam was killed because of his plan to destroy petro dollar trade,
and I believe Gaddafi had the same idea.

Who are these "moneymen" you're talking about? The notion that Saddam Hussein had a plan to "destroy petro dollar trade"--at least one the U.S. considered serious enough to justify removing him, as these "some" supposedly say--is laughable. The U.S. had good reasons to consider Hussein a threat, and they were much more closely related to 9/11 than to oil.
Joined: 8/18/2011
Msg: 193
Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 6/10/2012 7:47:50 AM
Joined: 5/29/2012
Msg: 194
Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 6/10/2012 8:30:08 AM
couldnt agree more, there is so much inequality , I say thank God for Unions or we might be even poorer
Joined: 5/12/2012
Msg: 195
Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 6/10/2012 10:03:57 AM
Some people think unions are bad because they protect workers and end up costing more in benefits and wages. Unchecked capitalism has led to out of control greed. Why, some people just go crazy, they can't handle themselves and they end up on a list of scams and scammers and warning notices posted by the Financial Services Commission of their state or province and their license to do business yanked. I guess unchecked greed like the above example is better than unions. But some people are obsessed with money and judge themselves and other on how much money they have. Surprising and sad but true.
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 196
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Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 6/10/2012 11:46:24 AM

Saddam was NOT A THREAT TO THE USA. Not in any way, shape, or form . . . There is absolutely no SHRED of real evidence that Saddam was any threat whatsoever to America.

I wonder how you know that. A shouted assertion is no substitute for a reasoned argument supported by facts.

The "evidence" of WMD's was totally false, cooked up by the Office of Special Plans by the neocons.

The evidence that Iraq's military had chemical and biological agents in 2002 was strong enough to persuade the intelligence service of not only the U.S., but also of our allies. Inspections after the 1991 Gulf War had proven that Iraq had stockpiled large amounts of a number of agents, including anthrax, and it was well known it had used mustard gas and phosgene in its war with Iran.

Considering how determined Iraq was to evade fully disclosing information about its chemical and biological programs, and that it had reneged on its promises, slaughtering Shiites in the south, more than once feinting a new attack on Kuwait, and hundreds of times, year after year, harassing and firing at U.S. and British fighter patrols, it was hardly a stretch to conclude that Iraq's military had almost certainly reacquired chemical and biological weapons during the three years since Hussein had kicked out the last inspectors.

Saddam had NO connection to 9/11.

I don't remember claiming that he did. What I said was that the administration's reasons for invading Iraq had more to do with 9/11 than with oil. The repeated leftist cant about "oil wars" is the modern equivalent of the bar-stool slander, popular among an earlier generation of dopes, that DuPont maneuvered the U.S. into WWI to reap enormous profits from selling the government all that gunpowder.

This Wobbly lie was revived in "Masters of War," a melodramatic piece of tripe by Bob Dylan. It's always been a staple of communist propaganda that the rich capitalist masters, using politicians they've bought and paid for, agitate for wars in which they use the poor working man as cannon fodder. The workers of the world share a natural solidarity and yearn to live in multicultural peace and brotherhood, you see, but the evil plutocrats are always whipping up nationalist passions to set them against one another. Of course, these connivers encourage racial and religious intolerance as part of their wicked scheme. And where should the foul den of these monsters be, but that capitalist pit of all the world's evil--the United States!

That you would make such a claim now, when so much of the truth has now been revealed, makes me wonder
about your motives.

I can see that very little of that truth has been revealed to you. I recognize both your right to be poorly informed and your right to think whatever you want about my motives.
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 197
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Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 6/10/2012 4:42:29 PM
I see now that you are totally lacking in intellectual integrity.
This makes me sad.
I did present a number of facts, all of which you chose to ignore
because of your obvious agenda. You choose to defend the right, even when the right is wrong.
I feel sorry for you as a human being.
It's hard to find anyone, at this point, who honestly believes that Iraq was a good idea.

This tangent is kind of off topic but... seriously???? wth... you feel sorry for him as a human being? That’s seriously delusional self-importance and way north of arrogant.

Your opinion is your opinion and is hindsight. Conspiracy theories aside many countries participated and it was conducted for years by many countries and now you are going to stand on a pedestal and say that everyone in the world but you is a poor excuse of a human being?

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998.

You must be correct. It is so obvious that Nancy Pelosi is one of the most hardcore neocons that we have.

Hilary also

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program.
He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons." Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

And let’s see... from the time a review by someone I actually think was a rather intelligent person

The video is more than a few seconds long but I suggest listening to all of the parts and remembering rather than claiming some access to superior knowledge that everyone but you was to foolish to see.

A bit more on topic...
We have no idea how much things should cost any more. The government keeps messing with it.
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 198
Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 6/10/2012 4:46:39 PM
OMG!!!!! hahahaha!! I feel like I just stepped into an early 50's film noir special! hahahahaha!!!!

With that little vinettte of "workers of the world" nonsense of that paragaph! hahahaha!!!

You gotta be kiddin me! Really your going to base an ENTIRE war, on inspections from 1991? Or on inept intelligence that shrub and darth vadar cooked up in the white house kitchen? Hahahaha..oh gawd, I think I wet myself..that is some funny shit.

Do you have a special room you lock yourself in and use your decoder room, to think up this drivel?

Saddam didn't care about anything but Saddam. He could care less about Israel, the countries around him, or the arab cause whatever anyone wants to define it as. He was a thug, pure and simple, dating back as far as his earliest political beginnings from the post nazi era.

At least Bush Sr. had an excuse that while questionable, was legitimate. The Saudi's were cowering in their tents, figuring they were next after he invaded Kuwait. But he was SMART enough to know, displacing him would destablize the entire region, and stopped short of Baghdad.

But nnooooooo not shrub, he was determined to finish what daddy didn't do. Egged on by lord vader he went full tilt at it. So what do we have to show for the 300,000+ bodies we piled up? Well the government there is in a constant state of flux. We may have less "military" boots on the ground, but WTH knows how many mercs we have there?

Haliburton is fat and happy with 20 billion in no bid contracts, I'm sure that makes lord vader smile, AND it probably paid for him to receive his first human heart. Gawd only knows he never had one before! hahahaha!!!
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 199
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Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 6/10/2012 6:21:41 PM
Clearly, Saddam did not have WMD.

Including the word "clearly" does not make your assertion true. It was not clear in the least to any of the Western intelligence services that Iraq's military had not replenished its stocks of chemical and biological agents during the three years after the last international inspectors had left. Just the opposite--everything they knew indicated it very likely had.

You must be correct. It is so obvious that Nancy Pelosi is one of the most hardcore neocons that we have.

She was hardly the only one. In August, 1998, when President Clinton ordered a cruise missile strike on what purportedly was a pharmaceutical plant in Khartoum, Sudan, he specifically cited its suspected role in Iraq's chemical weapons program as the reason for the attack.

Inspections revealed nothing whatsoever.

Now you are embarrassing yourself. You claim to know all about this subject, and yet apparently you don't even know that the two UN inspection teams in Iraq after the Gulf War discovered and monitored the destruction of large amounts of poison gas, largely WWI-era agents like mustard, but also some sarin, tabun, and VX, as well thousands of pounds of anthrax culture. I thought that was common knowledge--the inspectors' official reports have been widely available for years on the Internet. If anyone wants, I can point them out.

If you don't know something that basic, I assume you also don't know that Iraq had the most advanced weaponized anthrax program in the world after the U.S. and USSR--and that after the 1972 treaty, those programs had stopped producing it.

I did present a number of facts

What you did was assert your poorly informed opinion. You continue that process with this: "In any case, he was NOT a threat to the USA at any time. We had no good reason to invade Iraq, and we did so because of the neocons."

This is easy to trace, from "Clean Break," and even Wolfowitz and Perle and Kristol speaking OPENLY in various public forums about the need to remove Saddam.

I don't know what "Clean Break" is, and I'm not going to waste time researching it. Of course those men--and many other public figures--openly advocated removing Hussein, especially after 9/11. What of it?

This is well known stuff, and to chose to blatantly ignore this well known information puts you in such total ignorance I'm not sure that you deserve to have any say at all.

You claim "inspections revealed nothing whatsoever"--which is a flat misstatement of fact--and then you condescend to tell me what is "well known stuff" and scorn what you suppose is my "total ignorance." And if you like to imagine you decide what I deserve, please keep imagining it. For my part, I think you deserve to say whatever you like about this, and I hope to hear more of what you think you know.
Joined: 8/20/2006
Msg: 200
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Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 6/10/2012 7:00:13 PM
Although the Iraq war thing is getting off topic ( or confused with the gas price thread-lol) but you have remember the context and the timing of remarks too.

In a January 2003 CBS poll 64% of U.S. nationals had approved of military action against Iraq, however 63% wanted Bush to find a diplomatic solution rather than go to war, and 62% believed the threat of terrorism directed against the U.S. would increase due to war.[26] The invasion of Iraq was strongly opposed by some traditional U.S. allies, including the governments of France, Germany, New Zealand, and Canada.[27][28][29] Their leaders argued that there was no evidence of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and that invading the country was not justified in the context of UNMOVIC's 12 February 2003 report.
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 201
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Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 6/11/2012 12:19:13 AM

Everybody on this earth knows this 100%, except you.

Really? You must have done quite a survey to reach that conclusion. Next you'll be telling us that "everybody on this earth" except me also knows that "inspections revealed nothing whatsoever." By making a false statement about such a basic, relevant fact and then refusing to admit the falsehood, you call your other claims into question. Here is some of that "nothing whatsoever":

"From May 1991 to December 1998, UNSCOM and the
IAEA’s Action Team on Iraq conducted almost 300 inspections at over 1,000
facilities. Iraq’s programs to develop biological weapons, chemical weapons, and
nuclear weapons surprised even those knowledgeable in those areas. IAEA
inspections uncovered a Manhattan-Project-like nuclear program, which employed
thousands of scientists and explored many avenues of producing weapons-grade
material. Nonetheless, Iraq had not produced any real weapons-grade material,
although it did have a crash program to secretly divert highly enriched uranium under
IAEA safeguards for a warhead, as well as a crude weapons design. Inspections also
uncovered bulk biological weapons agent production capability and a rudimentary
delivery capability. Much about Iraq’s biological weapons program is still unknown.
In contrast, Iraq’s capabilities in chemical weapons and missiles were relatively wellknown.
Inspectors destroyed 38,500 munitions, 480,000 liters of chemical agents,
and 1.8 million liters of precursor chemicals . . . ."

"Iraq: U.N. Inspections for Weapons of Mass Destruction," Congressional Research Service, 2003, p.4. Available at

As to Iraq's efforts at biological warfare, see "UNSCOM: Report to the Security Council," 25 January, 1999, Annex C, "Status of Verification of Iraq's Biological Warfare Programme." Available at

Just a quick look through the 58-page Annex C makes clear Iraq had a huge biowarfare program and had produced a range of lethal germs and toxins and the means to apply them against targets. The report also makes clear that Iraq continually falsified and concealed information to try to deceive the inspectors about what it was doing.

it fueled intense hatred of the USA in the Arab world.

The purpose of U.S. foreign policy should never be to persuade anyone in the "Arab world" or anywhere else to like this country. It should instead be to further the strategic interests of the U.S. What matters is not their hatred of the U.S., but their capacity and intent to act on it.

Perle went on the serve in the Bush administration as chair of the Defense Policy Board, Fieth as Undersecretary of Defense, and Wurmser as Special Assistant to the Undersecretary of State for Arms Control.

That is true, but it's hardly news. The fact the men you named served in the Bush administration shows President Bush thought well of them. Is that supposed to be remarkable for some reason? When someone attacks Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz, Douglas Feith, Norman Podhoretz, Irving Kristol, et al., I'm never sure if it's because of their views, or because they are Jewish.
Joined: 2/13/2012
Msg: 202
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Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 6/11/2012 6:08:01 AM
Here we go again. A topic about historical world trends is being discussed and some (thank goodness not all) Americans can't raise their mindset above domestic political bickering. No wonder the USA is in a state of inertia...the public seems to thrive on getting sidetracked onto irrelevent minutia.

Back to the topic...interesting documentary on BBC yesterday about free enterprise in China and reverse trends of populations moving from Hong Kong back to the mainland. Those wanting to start up small businesses said there are too many restrictions in Hong Kong (once the epitomy of free enterprise) compared to the mainland (once the antithesis of free enterprise).

Who'd have thought 40 years ago that China would become the most captialistic of all capitalistic societies.
Joined: 2/14/2009
Msg: 203
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Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 6/13/2012 12:32:24 PM
Nope, Nope, Capitalism will never fail. 11 pages of differing opinions of what it is, why it is, and who it's for or against has'nt killed it.

I think, in my case this thread has shown me that the Capitalistic system is something different to everyone. And, yet it's something we all relate to with a love/hate outlook. I mean, we depend upon this system for our food, water and pretty much all we consume. Looks like it's something we all have a relationship with on some level.

I think it can be made to work more equitably for all. But, it would take the will of all for this to happen. Until then, it will be in the control of those with the most capital. Hence, the name.

I sure would'nt want to see it fail.
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 204
Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 6/13/2012 3:11:09 PM

Our clapped-out system cannot implode too soon. Economy can only go downwards. No longer competitive in the global market. Saddled with huge low-potential minority populations and adding more. Talking about job creation while welcoming appx. 125K legal immigrants a month. Mostly third-worldrs with little or no job skills. Insanity. Rejoice when it shattes, build something better.

You should be thankful that people from other countries are still willing to come to work in this country.
Joined: 10/11/2011
Msg: 205
Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 6/14/2012 5:17:07 PM

You should be thankful that people from other countries are still willing to come to work in this country.

I would be.............if they did so legally and not drain our social systems while working and sending money back to Mexico.

I am tired of seeing hundreds of thousands of illegals shopping with food stamps and working jobs and paying no taxes.

They break our laws yet are rewarded with free food, health care, education, and the list goes on.

Cut all of their aid fine anyone who hires one $10,000,00 a day for each one and we wouldn't have to spend a dime to deport them. They would be jumping the Rio Grande to go home on their own!
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 206
Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 6/20/2012 6:06:51 PM
While capitalism may not fail, it will have to be rethought, by all those trying to game the system. Bankers, getting bailouts, CEO's acting as though they are spending their own money, and not stockholders.
Joined: 2/5/2012
Msg: 207
Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 6/30/2012 4:08:21 AM
Great article:

There was a documentary several years ago called “The Corporation” that accepted the premise that corporations are persons and then asked what kind of people they are. The answer was, precisely, psychopaths: indifferent to others, incapable of guilt, exclusively devoted to their own interests.
Joined: 2/5/2012
Msg: 208
Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 6/30/2012 4:11:21 AM
Regarding poverty in america;

Myth: People who are poor are lazy.

Fact: In 2008, 4.5 million families living in poverty had at least one member in the labor force. (U.S. Department of Labor, 2010)

Myth: Those living in poverty just want to stay there.

Fact: Millions of Americans move in and out of poverty over a lifetime. More than half the U.S. population will live in poverty at some point before age 65. (Urban Institute, 2010)

Note: most of the poor have worked in their lives and paid into the systems that they are using in times of distress.
The three most common reasons people fall into situational poverty are illness, divorce, and job loss.
Joined: 2/13/2012
Msg: 209
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Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 6/30/2012 11:16:53 AM

The three most common reasons people fall into situational poverty are illness, divorce, and job loss

That's like saying the most common reason for drowning is falling out of a boat. ...ignoring the fact that the person didn't take swimming lessons. went out on choppy water, didn't wear a life preserver, etc.

Crap happens in life. working hard to get a good education, keeping fit, relocating to where there are better opportunities, putting off buying as new car and accumulating savings etc. are lifetime preparstions people can take so 'when', not 'if', they lose a job and they don't 'fall into situational poverty'. They don't have to meet a mortgage payment because they paid off the mortgage instead of dining in restaurants twice a week. or buying the latest big screen TV.

There are poor people that have my sympathy but not those who wake up one day and go 'gee whiz, I never thought I'd get sick or lose my job'. As for divorce...most people are not in poverty after a divorce. They have accumulated assets, have jobs, etc. 50% of marriages end in divorce . If an adult puts themselves in a vulnerable position then their issue is 'stupidity' and not divorce.

I say this as a 'liberal'. I'm all for an extensive social safety net like we have in Canada...I'd even expand on it....but this doesn't excuse away personal responsibility in favour of victimhood.
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 210
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Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 6/30/2012 12:30:26 PM

I say this as a 'liberal'. I'm all for an extensive social safety net like we have in Canada...I'd even expand on it....but this doesn't excuse away personal responsibility in favour of victimhood.

This is what I would think is the typical American Republican response as well. Maybe a bit less on the extensive. Not the full withdrawal of the libertarian scenario and not the all-encompassing daddy of leftism.

What is going too far here is the federally supported corporations. It makes sense to have economic policy that subsidizes farmers for specific crops that influences national food production costs. However it does not make sense to prop up failing corporations for the purpose of jobs. No body creates a company to create jobs. Only the government does that. It is not an economic policy to create jobs to give people something to do. That doesn't make any sense and is unsupportable.

Now, take that same failing company and subsidize the industry in order to have a national impact on pricing to give an edge against foreign competition and now you are talking economic policy. The supportability of that same action done for a different reason to the group as a whole rather than a specific company and there is something to debate with economic and jobs impact. Giving the edge to a single company.

Is this true? 70% of GM cars are produced outside US. Growing in China. Why was the bailout done?

That isn't a mixed economy capitalism.
Joined: 2/14/2009
Msg: 211
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Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 7/8/2012 9:02:57 AM
After thinking about the question of capitalism failing I figure it could be it's own demise...It may just eat itself. And,if left unchecked spoil the earth for we the inhabitants.

Once the system totally exhausts it's recources this could lead to the failure of capitalism. Especially if said system leaves no provision for replenishment or efficient use of these recources. Recources like material for product production. And human recources such as manual labor and engineering and development.

But, before things got that far along in capitalisms end there'd probably be mass revolt and societal upheval Almost as if the Govt's of the world, worldwide production of goods ,and people earning a living are tied to this system. Like the system is bigger than capitalism alone

It's gotten to be a kind of glue that is bringing our world together IMHO. Almost like a double edged sword, it has both good and bad points. But, if the people had greater control over this system it could work BETTER for everyone. What happens to this system and who it benefits is in our hands...

Sometimes it feels as though Capitalism is controlling us, rather than the people controlling it. Again JMHO.
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 212
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Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 7/8/2012 10:03:26 AM

But, if the people had greater control over this system it could work BETTER for everyone.

I think this has the same problem as democracy. People are selfish and will always vote in their own best interests even if their self interests leads to total destruction.

The best system for the best control and with the best intentions is a good King. Someone that has complete rule and does the right thing because it is the right thing and can be trusted to always do what is best even if it hurts. There is no one capable of performing this role, especially with the size of the modern world, so the closest model is a representative government and hope that we can keep electing them out of office if they go bad and feel sad that the good ones can't stay either.

It isn't capitalism that is a problem. It is a very effective scarce resource management and helps to improve costs for all through production and distribution while also providing a means of reward and benefit to the multiple layers of the system.

It's the people that screw it up. When you have people scheming to exploit at much as possible and combine that with masses that basically want everything for free you have chaos, confusion, and all the appearances of a concerted effort to crash the system.
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