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 Sciencetreker
Joined: 2/13/2012
Msg: 26
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Will Capitalism Fail?Page 2 of 11    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11)

If I take a branch from a bush, sharpen one end and catch a fish with it from a nearby stream then the stick is my capital.
I used my skill and ingenuity to utilise the capital to acquire a commodity.

How can capitalism fail exactly?


Is it your bush? Your land to cross to the stream? Your stream? Your fish to catch? Perhaps folks planted that bush for blueberries and stocked the stream with their own fish. Your assumption is like saying it's ok for someone to use their skill and ingenuity to go to your home, strip the sod off the lawn and sell it somewhere.

We all admire ingenuity. I support most free enterprise but it's a complex world of competing economic and social interests. There are layers of collective interests like preserving the environment, national derfense, food safety, education and a thousand other things that can't be trumped by capitalism.
 OyVay...
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 27
Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 5/30/2012 1:35:09 PM
"In what other system would a "Wall Street" be necessary"

OK, then the only systems I can think of would be socialism or communism where a capital formation operation would be unneccessary. In those systems the government would make the capital available to produce products building the factories, buying the natural resources.

The problem is GREED pure and simple. As Wall Street changed it's focus from long term to short term growth, things slid down the slippery slope. Instead of focusing on where a company will be in one year, 2 years or 5 years, it shifted to the next quarterly profit statement. So it became a different mindset for the executives of a company, to focus on "what have you done for me lately" and immediate gratification. This aspect changed in the late 60's to early 70's

Additionally the change in labor costs on wall street, kept going up, at a frightening rate. This became hugely apparent in the 80's when Milken and junk bonds, produced an income for him of over 500 million per year, for a couple of years. Again in what world other than wall street is one man worth that much money?

Finally we come to the era of the CDO, which were the strips of seperate mortgages, that were sold off. Little pieces of a mortgage packaged together. Then sent to a rating agency to get whether it is AAA to bb. The problem with this aspect of what happened, was rating agencies were paid by the broker-dealers who put the security together. So since there were 3 agencies, if one was to rate a security lower than the BD desired, they would take their business to one of the others. So who's going to take the bread out of their own mouths by calling the security a dog with fleas?

Also the trading in all kinds of options, futures and derivatives, that few understand the risk of. Has created an atmosphere of gambling more than value based investing.

As another poster has said, when the excesses become to great, the market deals with it harshly. You can track that back several centuries..for example, the crash of 29, with too loose standards for margin, or the lost decade of the 70's when corporate profits shrivelled after a spat of takeovers that created conglamorates, or the crash of 87. The end of the dot.com era, and now finally the mortgage fiasco of 08.
 want to travel
Joined: 7/29/2006
Msg: 28
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Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 5/30/2012 2:04:42 PM
well, I have to say....
there was not one single east block country that was or called itself communist
they where all, socialist, or peoples republics,run by communist or workers parties
the carrot at the end of the stick was communism
so buddy, you just do not have a clue
and yes, toyota did spend more money then the big 3 to develope one truck
my sons mother works at ford engine plant
she is making the very same engine, she made 15 years ago, fact
2 out of the big 3 were bailed out,the workers are very good, some of the best in the world!

but the people in charge, are only conserned with there bonuses

I am in no way against fair trade, the toyota factory in texas, is a good thing, american made, quality jobs for americans, and a very good machine
 OyVay...
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 29
Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 5/30/2012 2:28:41 PM
"it's not that there is no place for institutions like Wall Street banks"

It is the amount of money sloshing around the political trough! The worst thing that happened was the repeal of Glass Steagall. Before that, the banks were like fat kids, with their nose pressed up against the candy store window!

It took them 20 years of key political support for candidates, before congress relented and opened the door for them to get back into a business they basically ruined in the 20's.

"why it is that institutional investors and shareholders let this go on"

Because the former is in bed with the broker dealers, and you find them shifting back and forth(the individuals) between jobs in either side of the industry. The latter has no power at all, a corporation is NOT a democracy, but a dictatorship run by either the chairman of the board or the CEO. Shareholders today are just along for the ride. No longer able to affect corporate decisions, mainly because most shares in the companies of the Russell 4000, are owned by institutions and not individual investors.

"when will they ever get weaned off?"

The simple answer is NEVER! We seem now to be held in place by the power structure of the politicians and the bankers. The 99% if you will, don't have anything like the assets of those they are being oppressed by. So now they will run the show, until they bring the whole thing down around everyones ears.

I certainly wish and hope for common sense, but with greed whispering in their ear, do you REALLY see them giving up the power and the money the current system allows them to have and make?

We all hoped that 2008, would have been the high water mark. It wasn't, the banks went to DC and got a handout. No one got punished, there were no lessons learned. In fact, when you reflect on what happened in past fianacial disasters, some were punished, if not jail, there were fines, licenses were lost, firms were allowed to fail.

So what happened this time? Lehman Brothers went under. Look back at the lost decade of the 70's...400 firms went out of business on wall street. The rest? All given away for pennies to other larger banks with government gaurantees. Wouldn't you like to buy $10 billion worth of assets, 2 of which were bad, and had government backing for those, and the whole thing cost you less than $50 million!

So at the end of the day, what changed?
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 30
Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 5/30/2012 3:38:32 PM
Will Capitalism eventually destroy itself through greed?

Not as long as they can keep blaming the poor people for their problems and subsequently making them pay while they enjoy more tax breaks and government handouts.

So remember kids, socialism for the poor: Bad

Socialism for the rich: Good.


Stewart shows the hypocrisy.

Jon Stewart Skewers Fox News, Roger Ailes Over Socialism Accusations (VIDEO)

USA
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/tue-may-29-2012/intro---socialism---roger-ailes

Can
http://watch.thecomedynetwork.ca/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart/full-episodes/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart---may-29-2012/#clip687770
 Sciencetreker
Joined: 2/13/2012
Msg: 31
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Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 5/30/2012 4:16:34 PM
Who is this 'we'?

It be nice for a change if Americans could discuss a topic without getting obsessed with interal US politics and issues. It's a BIG world. The rise, fall or whatever of capitalism is not dependent on Wall street or Washington.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 32
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Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 5/30/2012 5:05:58 PM
Soicat: your post misstates history:

Igor, your food example is excellent, because that's exactly what happened. Food company brands began and developed because consumers couldn't trust food sellers. Merchants would adulterate food to increase their profits - with utter disregard for safety - and people were willing to pay a premium to obtain food products they could trust. The market responded and now we take it for granted that food is safe, and cheerfully purchase generic food to save money.


The "free market" of voluntary action by corporations did NOT respond to the problem of poisoned food by creating "trusted brands." They fought all the way, for the "right" to sell whatever they wanted,without any interference or testing. The scandals of poisoned food, exposed by various campaigners, led to Federal Government intervention, regulation, and testing. THAT in turn eventually resulted in your "trusted brands."

Dameright: your area sounds delightful. It's an excellent example to me, of how ANY system, whether it is called capitalism or socialism, or oopsywoopsyism, will work WONDERFULLY, if caring, intelligent, involved and knowledgeable people are the primary people running the thing. A society run by a genius, warm caring truly benevolent all powerful dictator will also run just as beautifully, for as long as the dictator lasts.

And further, your example fits right in with what I'm trying to get at: regulation of Capitalism isn't necessary, if EVERYONE participating in it is on the same philosophical page, educated, honorable, caring, and so forth. The exact same thing is true of Socialism though. It works perfectly, if EVERYONE participating etcetera.

Yours is not the first such small, cooperative, localized "shangrila" I've heard about. The only problem I've seen, is that so far no one has ever managed to expand such a model to anything the size of a nation state. Hence, these other systems were set up.
 DameWrite
Joined: 2/27/2010
Msg: 33
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Posted: 5/30/2012 6:38:56 PM
"Argue for your limitaons...and sure enough they're yours"

It can work outside my island, Sidney B.C. was tired of seeing people passing through to Salt Spring, they have started their own market, they have music in the park and theater, communty gardens are in the works and they've taken off restricting by laws for secondary suits so that houses in the suburb can be shared. There are now families living with the single older people that once outnumbered everyone else. These single older people are thriving. Sidney is on the ocean, when I was a kid it was drug/scary.
Cook Street Village in Victoria is doing the same, homes above stores and community gardens etc. Cook St. used to be crime capital of Victoria. It's hippyville now.
Anyway, all I'm saying is start where you are, get involved in your community, don't let fear stop you from making changes, be good and things will get better.
The gov't is not your friend, your neighbors are, meet them.

Saltspring has thousands of visitors and we certainly don't know all of them, but I don't think they are up to no good as much as they would be other places because even they don't want to spoil it. They want to feel welcome and enjoy it too. They behave here because they are welcome to join in. People understand that their criminal behavior doesn't have to be cronic, so they talk to them. If they screw up, they hear about it and get embarrassed. If they are really bad, then they get ousted-it's no fun sitting on the side lines. Even they get that.
 CoolBreezez
Joined: 8/20/2006
Msg: 34
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Posted: 5/30/2012 6:58:42 PM
I found this little piece on capitalism interesting. I think many from both sides of the argument can find some truths in it.


What is Sustainable Capitalism?
Sustainable Capitalism is what capitalism should be. It is capitalism practiced in the way it was meant to be; capitalism that works and is sustainable. It is more benevolent than the corrupt form of crony capitalism practiced today in that it requires participants to take a more long run view and no cheaters are allowed. Sustainable Capitalism rewards all economic participants by sharing rewards more evenly across the labor spectrum. Management and labor are both forms of labor. They are partners instead of warring factions in the supply function of capital.


For this and more see

http://www.american-consensus.org/resources/econ/sustainable_capitalism.html

One more tennet of this is that capitalism needs democracy, and vis-a-versa which really isn't true. China is now succeeding and Sweden runs quite well too as a more socialistic state. You just have get everyone working in the same direction, whether by carrot or stick or a little of both.
 DameWrite
Joined: 2/27/2010
Msg: 35
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Posted: 5/30/2012 7:24:04 PM
Deathspiral- THANK YOU! I've bookmark it. Great site.
 OyVay...
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 36
Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 5/30/2012 7:43:03 PM
@52

That is a good model, and needs to be recognized. The biggest issue I have with the failed model is the lack of recognition of who will buy this sh1t, being produced and imported, when we have high unemployment AND only minimum employment for a majority of the population.

Minimum wage jobs may make corporate profits swell, it doesn't make for a healthy consumer. So for a few years, the bean counters get there bonuses as do the executives. Then businesses start to fail. What would you do, feed and shelter your family, or buy a new sofa built in china? Or a TV? Or a car?

This of course discounts, all the other shit that is going on. First you charged 18 to 25% interest on credit cards, you were paying the Fed for less than 1%. Then when people couldn't pay, you ended up trying to get them for 79% interest on a high risk credit card. Shit, the corner loan shark was almost more fair.

Now the largest growth industry in our nation is the buzzards! They feast on the carcuses of the poor, unemployed and those in financial hardship. So the growth comes in debt restructure(which by the way damages your future credit), the collection business(which here in georgia has developed a new trick, showing up in hospitals when you are sick to harass you and in some cases have you arrested), the real estate vultures, who will try and get you into a no money down deal that benefits only them. Watch TV, see the commercials..they run as often as the old ones about mortgage companies offering you the latest zippity do dah...no down payment, a locked in payment for the first year..and you never had to worry about your credit score!

Yep...america is just fine...for the vultures!
 jlbiv
Joined: 9/2/2011
Msg: 37
Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 5/30/2012 8:14:02 PM
I don't want to get into picking apart every statement everyone has made one way or the other. But I do have an overall question for those who think capitalism is a bad system. Capitalism does indeed work off of greed to an extent. I'll use my profession because not only am I familiar with it, so is most everyone here from a consumers stand point.

Putting aside that I work at a dealership, for the sake of this discussion, we'll just put this in terms of me charging you. If you brought your car to me, and I was going to replace your engine and only charge $100, I'm sure you'd go for it. In fact, I'd probably have more customers than I can handle. What if I charge $500 instead? Or $5,000? While $100 might have been a good deal for you, the cost of one ratchet is $200, not including the sockets. Tools and the cost for me to have the equipment to do the job right costs money. So at $100 are you ripping me off? Is that ok? If I charge $5,000 am I ripping you off? Not if we both agree to the price. If I'm too greedy, and charging too much, I'll lose business. I charge too much, you'll take it somewhere else, learn to fix it yourself, or replace the car.

Lets put "greed" in another context....

Government gets greedy, and taxes those who produce and are willing to do tough jobs, develop great products we all enjoy and takes the profit or reward right out of it. What happens if government gets too greedy? Can a government tax it self into prosperity? What if income was taxed to the point that wasn't worth your effort to make the money in the first place? Time is money, and if taxes were hitting me in a way that even if I worked harder, I couldn't get anymore money, I wouldn't bother. I'll just stay home. Anyone here willing to work very little or nothing?

If it's just certain products or services you want to cost less, how is the best way to do it? Lately seems like the knee jerk answer is "tax it". Ok, basic math... If you have an item you want to sell, it costs you $4, you're going to sell it for $6, then you make $2 profit on the item, right? Ok, same scenario, but now we're going to throw in a tax, say 50% cause you're so greedy and it's just not fair. You have overhead, you have bills, and you have employee costs. What do you do? $4 for the item, you need to make a certain amount to stay profitable, otherwise there's no point to going to work in the first place. So we now charge $7 for said item. $4 for cost, $2 to maintain the profit (if the market will bare it) and $1 extra to cover this tax. So who paid the tax? The customer. It's either going to be that or cut back on the quality or payroll something else will have to give. No matter what though, the only thing that succeeded, was the item became more expensive in the end.

So if capitalism can fail because of greed, then so can government!
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 38
Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 5/30/2012 8:39:35 PM
I haven't read the whole thread, but I kind of doubt anyone has said that capitalism is a bad system.

However, you seem to think that government is a bad thing. You sell cars. Those cars run on roads built by the government. People don't walk in and drive cars off the lot because there are police that are provided by the government. In order to have a government, you need to have taxes. Right now, you don't pay enough taxes to provide the services needed to have things like car dealerships. That's why you're running deficits every year.
 jlbiv
Joined: 9/2/2011
Msg: 39
Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 5/30/2012 8:49:36 PM
lol, actually I fix cars. Government has a place, yes, that is correct. When government is used to manipulate an economy or use taxes to penalize people who have "too much", then it's a big problem. If your going to tax success, you'll have less of it. We tax smokers more and more, people smoke less and less. We tax gas more and more, people drive less and less. When we tax investments more and more, people invest less. This happens across the board. And actually, when taxes are cut, the government take is actually more... How is that? Does the government run deficits because they don't tax enough or because they spend too much? I believe the latter. What percentage of GNP do you believe the government should spend each year?
 OyVay...
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 40
Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 5/30/2012 9:31:00 PM
Hmmm I have some difficulty here with some of your assertions.

Do governemnts REALLY penalize "people who have "too much"", I mean please show me where the rate on those with "too much" have risen dramatically in the last 25-30 years?

Or how about "We tax gas more and more, people drive less and less", are you attributing the rise in gas prices to taxes? I would have a problem with that...have you checked the profitability of Exxon, BP, or Chevron lately? People are driving less and less, cause gas went from just below $3 a gallon to almost $5 a gallon, that WASN'T taxes!

"When we tax investments more and more, people invest less"

Here I call utter bullshit! I invest, I know many people in the business of investing. The only reason someone invests less, is because they are unsure of where the market will go. NO ONE EVER invests less because of taxes. Beyond that, there is no material transfer tax, investment taxes are 15% for long term investments. You pay close to 30%, a CEO getting paid part of his compensation in stock options pays 15%, how is that fair?

I agree government spending is out of control. But there are many places to cut spending, before you come to core services for social services. How about foreign aid? How about defense? How about the friggin salary's and pensions of the congress?
 jlbiv
Joined: 9/2/2011
Msg: 41
Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 5/31/2012 3:38:23 AM

People are driving less and less, cause gas went from just below $3 a gallon to almost $5 a gallon, that WASN'T taxes!

There are a lot of factors that go into the price of a gallon of gas. We do pay about 18.4 cents per gallon of gas for federal taxes, in my state it's about 61.3 cents for state taxes (some of the highest in the country). Also any other fees or taxes applied to the production of gas and oil we pay for too, even if not directly applied at the point of sale.


NO ONE EVER invests less because of taxes.


You mean to tell me that no matter how high taxes go, you believe it has no effect on the activity your taxing?? Well then let's tax your income at 100%! I bet you stop going to work.



I agree government spending is out of control. But there are many places to cut spending, before you come to core services for social services. How about foreign aid? How about defense? How about the friggin salary's and pensions of the congress?


Sure, I'd love to see those in government across the board get their salaries cut. I'd like to see spending reflect that of the GNP, so if we have a strong economy, they can spend more, but when we're down, they should spend less, but they don't. Lets be clear though, only cutting the salaries of those elected officials in congress (even if to zero) would do little compared to what we spend now. Keep in mind, while defense spending is constitutional, most of our social services are not.

Again though, how much of our GNP should we spend each year?
 Sciencetreker
Joined: 2/13/2012
Msg: 42
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Posted: 5/31/2012 6:09:58 AM
[
No one ever invests less because of taxes


????????????

There's 180 or so nations in the world. Hundreds of billlions of dollars shift annualy to various markets because of many variables...including taxes. Canada and Australia have largely weathered the last 5 years rather well (maintained triple a rating) largely because both encouraged overseas capital. Stable economies (unlike Greece, Spain, etc.) do not have looming increases in taxes facing investors down the road.

I don't know if a billionaire pays 'fair' taxes in most western countries but he is much more likely to invest his billion at home rather than in China, Australia, Brazil etc. if he can get a greater return after taxes. With the exception of China, every country is less in control than ever of it's own domestic economy. Political borders do not stop money flow.
 OyVay...
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 43
Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 5/31/2012 9:23:22 AM
"Well then let's tax your income at 100%!"

Well now that is silly, and a straw man! No one I have ever heard, from any country has proposed 100% tax. I already said, which you chose to ignore, the current tax rate on long term investments is 15%, that is far from 100%.

Back to gasoline, while most states have some form of tax on gasoline, they are supposed to use that for road repair. The majority in the jump in gas prices reflect the change is price per barrel of oil from$70 to over $100.

"Again though, how much of our GNP should we spend each year?"

This too depends on the economic model you use, and where the economy is in it's cycle.

If government was reliable(doesn't matter which party was in power), then you would have a surplus coming out of boom years, going into lean ones, to make up for shortfalls in income tax. Our congress spends like drunken sailors, no matter who is in power.

Under the current thinking being employed by either group, you either believe in the idea that with depressions or deep recssions, the government is the spender of last resort to restart the economy, since they are the only entity spending. OR you believe in the cut taxes and the businesses and wealthier folks will begin to spend and increase economic growth.

We have just left 8 years of the latter, didn't promote growth that I saw. Corporations STILL cut wages, sent jobs overseas. The rich don't spend excess, they invest it. Not all investment spurs economic growth. Today Walmart is trading at a 12 year high, 70+% of their products are produced in China, how does that help spur economic growth in the USA, when they invest there?

I know many of you want to reduce economics to 1+1=2, it just doesn't work that way.
 Sciencetreker
Joined: 2/13/2012
Msg: 44
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Posted: 5/31/2012 10:33:27 AM
Oyvat..I agree with much of your post..but as for:



70+% of their products are produced in China, how does that help spur economic growth in the USA, when they invest there?


Actually a lot. It improves efficiencies. A country like Canada sells materials to China . this generates capital. The USA sells food, military and civilian airplanes, technology, etc to Canada. Australia sells iron ore and coal to China...gets capital...and imports machnery, pharmaceuticals, satelite time, etc. from the USA.

The USA (and nearly all western countries) have HIGHER per capita exports than China does

Also, a family in Ohio can buy their 3 kids sneakers at Walmart for $20 each instead of the $50 if made in the USA...they have saved $90 total and can then use this savings to go to an American-made movie and to eat eat American-grown food at Mcdonalds.


.
 OyVay...
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 45
Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 5/31/2012 11:01:26 AM
@64, actually your post addresses the "world" economy and not the "USA" economy.

While I understand your points, and they are valid, in the context of the international trade, the current problem in the USA is a dearth of manufacturing jobs in our country. We lost close to 4 million jobs, sent overseas, by american manufacturers to take advantage of several things. First no benefits associated with overseas employees, next cost in some places is $7 a day instead of $9 an hour. This has a big impact on our current unemployment rate.

So in your last statement, that family in ohio, has the best breadwinner, unemployed, since the factory closed. Mom probably took a job at MikceyD's which doesn't fully support their bills. So they end up with no sneakers, not cheap ones.

As for: "eat American-grown food at Mcdonalds" ahhh close but no cigar, while they buy almost all of their chicken here in the USA, they get their beef from growers ALL over the world.

Our balance of payments, related to imports has not been in the USA favor for over 25 years. So we send more money out overseas, than we take in.
 want to travel
Joined: 7/29/2006
Msg: 46
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Posted: 5/31/2012 11:06:40 AM
my city, was ruined, by the hyper stores
we had a downtown, with commerce
local people had great buisiness's, a consumer was king!now you shop, at any of the huge stores, and your lucky, if you do find someone to answer a question, and if you do you get attitude!
now really, every department store, book store, and others, have closed down
they could not keep there prices low enough
why where they better then these monster stores
for one you were treated really well
they had real employees, jobs that could support famillies, who paid real taxes,buy homes, pay for there kids education
the giant retail stores, take the money out of your local area,they hardly have any full time employees
they don't give a s.it about the customer, where are you going to go......
insted of state owned stores, we now have corporate owned stores
is that true capitalism!
 want to travel
Joined: 7/29/2006
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Posted: 5/31/2012 11:26:14 AM
paul
I have seen east block countries
yes they did have stores, and everything in them was centrally ordered, shiped and so on
people had much less variety
so the choise was limited
this is exactly what is going on now with corporate owned reatail, you are nothing, what you want does not count, they make up your mind as to what you need!
look, if you love corporations and what they are doing to society
thats great!
you have that choice... ok
but I have my views, and hell yes I miss being treated well, for my money!
 OyVay...
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 48
Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 5/31/2012 12:46:42 PM
I don't know if all cities were ruined, though the trend toward walmart has had an impact on local economies.

Walmart pays a lower wage than local stores, they also work their employees in a way, that avoids them qualifying them for benefits, since they require only full time employees be given benefits. Local stores get driven out by the big box stores ability to buy in bulk, and offer lower prices, based upon their buying power. You also lose a number of people being employed in that region.

They plant a walmart between 3 towns, employ 80 people part time. You may lose 40 employees in each of those 3 towns, by the closing of stores that can't compete. That means net down 40 jobs for the region. Further small business owners recognize and employ people for longer periods, at better wages, and with benefits, since the owner wants benefits as well.

There are any number of articles on this on google. Now turn this around, and if walmart buys 70% of it's products overseas, how many manufatcuring jobs are lost, factories closed. So a Walmart located centrally with the state of Ohio let's say, between 3 small towns.

That one store, lowers regional wages, reduces employment for the region by a 1/3 of retail jobs. Then factories closed in the region because walmart pushes for the lowest possible price to be paid for the goods it sells. So a factory or 2, could(and does) close. THEN...the profits from that store, revert to the corporate HQ in Arkansas, rather than be distributed by that local business, that was owned by a member of the commuity, supported local events(little league, local taxes, etc.)

Something else going unrecognized in this thread, in the internet. There has been a 6 or 7% rise each year in sales over the net. Amazon, ebay and any number of other sources, have reduced and impacted local economies. First without the need of local bricks and mortar for their footprint, there are ZERO jobs in your region. Next they impact ALL OF YOU, because since most sellers, resellers are out of state, no local sales tax is paid, reducing govenrment coffers.

Now some of this is the marketplace in action. Free markets have gone the way of progress, lowering the needs of labor, much of the shipping aspect is handled by robotics, so a further erosion.

Is it right? Well that's the problem and has been for over 40 years. Everyone loves a bargain, a good deal.

Years ago the AGWLU, a union for garments started a campaign to "always look for the union label"...of course it was lost on sally or jane, who would rather pay 14.99 for a cheap import than 29.99 for an american made good. Of course lost on them was hubby tom's job would be lost to an overseas manufacturing plant! So now they enjoy hamburger helper, withOUT the hamburger!

In decades past, there was always a new product on the horizon, so the jobs lost on discontinued items, or jobs shipped overseas, was lost in the activity of a new manufacturing start up.

BUT NOW, let's look at the latest hot item the Iphone, Ipad, Iwhatever...those jobs didn't even start here, even though the product was designed here, owned by a US company, and sold mostly here. Those jobs just went from drawing board to china..with no stops in between.

Again I ask is it right?

Well sorry I don't have an answer! I think there are some moral issues here. Such as taking care of home first. But that is something I cannot assert alone. If you don't like where things are headed, in the corporate world speak up!

See unlike all of you, who are dishonest in pleading your cases. I am as honest as I can be. I am an opportunist or in the venacular..a capitalist. That means I invest my money looking for the best return, which allows me to live a great life. So while progress marches on I merely look for opportunities in trends. So when Redbox and Netflix started to eat Blockbusters lunch, becuase the 2 former didn't have that added bricks and mortar costs, nor the same amount of employees, I shorted blockbuster and bought netflix! When apple found the better biscuit with the Iwhatever..I bought apple.

Now that isn't a good answer for all. Since many of you lack the funds to do the same, or the expertise to see the trends.

I tried to post this without the normal hoopla, and obviously I have an opinion, that will differ widely from most of you. What it comes down to is this. A few can't make all the money, or the many can't afford to live. Now how you solve that is whats up for debate. But guess what? If there are 300 million here in america, and let's say 15 million live great, and 315 million don't...how long before someone wakes up and says, "I ain't gonna take this shit no more!"

Clearly in the last page or so, what all of you glossed over was a fairer version of capitalism where management and labor value each other.
 Blalah
Joined: 3/25/2012
Msg: 49
Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 5/31/2012 1:04:27 PM
^^^and by all means living a great life only comes from having a boat load of money. The ones that have more than you are having a greater life and the Democrats will be the enlightening ones to point this out to you end exploit you for it for the last 50 years and the next 50. Why? Because that's all they got. Well that and calling you a racist if you don't agree with 100% of what a black president says.
 OyVay...
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 50
Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 5/31/2012 2:03:53 PM
"and by all means living a great life only comes from having a boat load of money"

You said that I didn't! I said "which allows me to live a great life"...you have no idea what my life entails, you may find it boring, or want something entirely different. My start in life was very poor, I will admit to, wanting a secure(financially) existence.

Then again, I have known many who simply thought "a great life" was having a house, a family and a good paying job(factory type wages). Yeah they'd like a new car every 8 years or so, a vacation once in while. To be able to help their kids start life off right(college?).

That's a far cry either in their case OR for that matter mine. From making 6 or 16 million a year!

That's one of the major issues I have with republicans! Trying to pass an agenda, which benefits ONLY the rich and well to do, while promising the average citizen "yes this can all be yours, when you get rich" or "now you will have the oppotunity to get rich" is horseshit!

Your average person with a high school diploma, or a 2 year degree, will never find themselves in the boardroom. Maybe 1 or 2 will, but they are the exceptions to the rule, NOT the rule. Telling the boxboy at walmart, someday you could run this company only happens in the movies and fairytales!

That's just the way it is..if you are honest, you will admit that.

As for the democrats wanting to help the unemployed, or the poor, instead of contributing to the furtheance of corporate greed...I can go along with that!

As for the "racist" bit, please don't try and tell me you believe that fairy tale either that racism is dead. Maybe you need to come visit here in atlanta and keep your ears open in clubs, bars and various venues to hear what some people say, when they believe it is only "their kind" listening! No not everything is about race with Obama, but there is an undercurrent of lack of curtesy, when it comes to him, whether based in race or whatever causes it in other peoples reaction to him.
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