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 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 76
Will Capitalism Fail?Page 4 of 11    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11)
Also, America in the 20's to 60's leading up to this was pretty crazy. Capone and organized crime and underground economies. Tax evasion was pretty much rampant all the way to the 80's until rates were cut.

So you are saying there is no organized crime or are you implying they now pay taxes?

Ironically you can easily eliminate billions if not trillions wasted on stupid pot laws and start collecting tax dollars on the sale of a product that has never hurt anyone.




So, I do see the point that taxing 90% appears to work for government but only if spending is tightly restricted and it really only benefits government. With tax rates at 90% you can't stop the underground efforts to keep what is earned and that is a whole other ordeal to cope with

When money is given to people that need it, they spend it and that cycle of spending is what makes the economy strong.

When more money is flowing into the hands of people that just horde it, no one wins and the economy comes to a halt.

So take a bit more from the people that can afford it and push it back out to people that needs it and you will be planting the seeds.

Though one problem has come up in the infrastructure and that is dealing with retail. At one time retail was locally owned and operated so more of the money spent there stay there, now with large mutli-nationals the money flows away from those local economies.

So some changes would have to be made with respect to interstate commerce so you do not get states cannibalizing each other with tax incentives.

That said, it will never happen as long as the USA is run by corporations and not people.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 77
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History
Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 6/1/2012 6:30:00 PM

That said, it will never happen as long as the USA is run by corporations and not people.


Hahaha that’s the point right... stop doing it. The backdoor corporate state through government is causing this. It is the Marxist dream as Jon Stewert unknowingly joked about. Only the big national corporations may possibly survive obamacare and will be protected against competition and massively taxing corporations to redistribute wealth. It is the Marxist dream. Business should not exist to satisfy government needs.

Isn't it funny how we just went through all of that, relatively agreed on the area of the problem, but your answer is more government and mine is less? I think your solution causes the problem described and creates monopolies that operate with government and controls everything and prevents people from succeeding with the exception of the very special already rich elite. You think my solution of a smaller government that doesn't have trillions and trillions and trillions of dollars to try to rescue the world is greedy corporations hoarding... I do not comprehend conclusion.

How does a government that can't spend into infinity = greedy corporations hoarding money?
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 78
Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 6/1/2012 8:45:27 PM

Only the big national corporations may possibly survive obamacare and will be protected against competition and massively taxing corporations to redistribute wealth. It is the Marxist dream. Business should not exist to satisfy government needs.

They should also not exist to run governments and play a role in legislation, but in the USA they are the biggest influences on all legislation.




Isn't it funny how we just went through all of that, relatively agreed on the area of the problem, but your answer is more government and mine is less? I think your solution causes the problem described and creates monopolies that operate with government and controls everything and prevents people from succeeding with the exception of the very special already rich elite.

So then you more so agree with Obama's agenda with regards to government size and not Bush's seeing as under Obama government has gotten smaller but under Bush it grew.


...The economist Paul Krugman has argued that if public employment had grown under Obama the way it did under Bush, there would be 1.3m more government jobs, and the unemployment rate would now be 7% or less, a full percentage point and more below current levels....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/may/31/public-sector-cuts-us-economy





You think my solution of a smaller government that doesn't have trillions and trillions and trillions of dollars to try to rescue the world is greedy corporations hoarding... I do not comprehend conclusion.

So those government jobs you juts cut and those people who where earning a very good wage now need help because obviously there are not enough jobs, what do you want to do with them?

How do you plan to replace the dollars that they spent into the economy?

Putting people out of work regardless where they work is still putting people out of work.

Just putting the tax level what it was pre bush would generate billions, but from what I understand it is more important to go after a couple of million to some stupid women health clinics to try and save a buck.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 79
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Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 6/1/2012 9:50:45 PM
So then you more so agree with Obama's agenda with regards to government size and not Bush's seeing as under Obama government has gotten smaller but under Bush it grew.


This is just misdirection. Size comes in many forms. Overstepping authority is one. Presenting the federal government as the solution to people’s needs is another. Passing the buck and blaming everyone else for everything is another
http://money.cnn.com/2012/01/25/news/economy/obama_government/index.htm

By many measures, the federal government has indeed grown during Obama's tenure. Spending as a share of the economy has gone up. The number of federal employees has risen. More Americans are relying on federal assistance.
But not all of those things were the president's doing.



So those government jobs you just cut and those people who were earning a very good wage now need help because obviously there are not enough jobs, what do you want to do with them?

How do you plan to replace the dollars that they spent into the economy?

Putting people out of work regardless where they work is still putting people out of work.

Just putting the tax level what it was pre bush would generate billions, but from what I understand it is more important to go after a couple of million to some stupid women health clinics to try and save a buck.


They shouldn't be there to begin with! I'm sorry but again... other than government who starts a business to create jobs. They don't. It doesn't work like that. Creating government positions just to create jobs is idiotic. You are really saying that we should increase bureaucracy just so we can have more low paid government workers under union benefits?


Just putting the tax level what it was pre bush would generate billions, but from what I understand it is more important to go after a couple of million to some stupid women health clinics to try and save a buck.

Lower spending to pre bush and then we will talk. Always willing to take but are you willing to give?

Would you agree to lose your home or apartment so you could pay higher taxes? You want 90% taxes right. Will you take 90% on what you make now? You can always take a bus, go on welfare, and have government provided healthcare so whatever money you make now is in excess to what you need. Will you keep working your normal work, produce and try to increase your production and give 90% of what you make away and move to a lower quality of life standard and live at the 'expected minimum' and use public services?

If you start the millionaire tax at 90% then those making 900k are screwed if they grow. You really ok with destroying people’s lives that worked decades to achieve some level of individual success and benefit to their communities? You may not care about them because they are “rich” but the fact is that they are the educated, the industrious, and the productive members of society that contribute. They are the ones you hold your hope of saving the world on… Yet, you don’t care about their lives. Why? Does not being helpless mean your worth less as a human?
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 80
Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 6/2/2012 4:41:00 AM

Would you agree to lose your home or apartment so you could pay higher taxes? You want 90% taxes right. Will you take 90% on what you make now?

What part of ..Just putting the tax level what it was pre bush would generate billions... did you not understand?

Nice try at an attempt to exaggerate things, also if you even understood when the tax rate was at 90% it was not 90% of all income but income after a certain level that was taxes at 90%, but do not let silly facts get in the way of your rant.


Either way the bottom line is the USA was in great shape until you guys said it was ok to start reducing taxes on the ultra wealthy and then decided to go kill some innocent people on the other side of the world.

Now your economy is in the toilet and some how it is the poor peoples fault.

This is one of the main reason why when the world watches your political coverage they tilt their head a bit to one side and think, do people even understand what just happened to their country and why do they keep blaming people that had nothing to do with it.

Either way, best of luck with your mess, because by the looks of it you are all f*cked unless you have a few million in the bank.

Though you keep waiting for your white knight to should up in his Bugatti to save your ass and the rest of the world will keep shaking it head and wonder why so many people can be so stupid as to be duped by political party and a bunch of corporations.
 GrandmaBooBoo
Joined: 12/30/2006
Msg: 81
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Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 6/2/2012 5:06:15 AM
You asked the question (Will Capitalism fail) about 30 years TOO LATE. It already DID fail. The U.S. hasn't seen a capitalist economy for over 30 years. With decades of "subsidies" already considered a corporate entitlement, bail outs were only the next step in the evolution of a Corporate Welfare State. Wall Street has (long ago) ceased to be a "fair market trading place" and is NOW, nothing but a huge gambling casino...where profits are privatized and losses are socialized.

Socialism is the next logical step, is unfortunately the ONLY thing which will wake this country up! It's just a matter of travelling in opposite directions around the same circle, both are going to eventually meet at the same place.

The problem is that too many nutjobs insist on using ONLY the most extreme examples, and leave out the MAJORITY in the middle.

Take, for instance, Facebook. The "capitalist" bankers, JPM, GS, et.al. where chomping at the bit to make a few billion by FORCING a PRIVATE company to "go public". NOW, after they've botched the process, they're trying to hang the blame on some techgeeks who NEVER claimed to BE finance people, never wanted to be finance people...they just wanted to be....techgeeks....and were being quite successful at it. Was that good enough for "capitalist" Wall Street? He11 NO! They had to get "THEIR" piece of the pie....in the INTEREST of the common "social good"!!!! LOL! Ya know...they had to make sure that Zuckerburg wasn't "exploiting" any of his employees! LOL! Sound like "unionism" too you??? (it does to me!)

WHY do you think the Fed has kept interest rates at 0% for so long? LOL You think it's to encourage people to build houses and buy cars? Ohhhhh HEII NO!!!! It's to FORCE people to invest in risky investments where derivative managers can "earn" billions and WHEN (not IF) they loose....the FDIC (government...that's US) picks up the tab for their "losses".

No, indeed, your question was asked way too late. Capitalism IS dead, we're just refusing to bury it's stinky remains, hoping that it will rise again from the ashes of the corrpution which murdered it...YEARS ago.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 82
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Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 6/2/2012 8:42:46 AM

What part of ..Just putting the tax level what it was pre bush would generate billions... did you not understand?


What part of putting spending back to the level of pre bush and we will talk do you not want to hear? Paying more into the failings of leftism is stupid. Being purposely stupid because someone says your mean unless you do it is stupid. You can't throw money at stupid and expect it to stop being stupid.

We need to stop following leftist destruction of capitalism and stop creating mega monopolies and eliminating competition to protect those monopolies. That is leftism. Haha, I do have to thank you for the John Stewart reference. I knew there was something wrong with how the banks and mega corporations are being treated. Leftism has had two major successes. One is the demonization of the right and the other is into tricking us into thinking that supporting large corporations into monopolistic monsters was the fault of basic capitalism when it really is the Marxist version of capitalism.

It is the thinking of the left that is destroying the global economy.

We were doing well until we started thinking leftism meant that you were a better person.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 83
Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 6/2/2012 9:57:33 AM
... the other is into tricking us into thinking that supporting large corporations into monopolistic monsters was the fault of basic capitalism when it really is the Marxist version of capitalism.

The "Marxist version of capitalism"? That doesn't mean what you think it means, and an unsupported simplistic statement from wikipedia is specious. There is no Marxist version of capitalism.

Marx spent a whole lengthy book describing capitalism-- that doesn't make any of the capitalist concepts described therein Marxist.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 84
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Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 6/2/2012 10:30:41 AM

The "Marxist version of capitalism"? That doesn't mean what you think it means, and an unclear and unsupported simplistic statement from wikipedia is specious. There is no Marxist version of capitalism.


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/commandingheights/shared/pdf/ess_marxsanalysis.pdf


"Along with the constantly diminishing number of the magnates of capital, who usurp
and monopolize all advantages of this process of transformation, grows the mass of
misery, oppression, slavery, degradation, exploitation; but with this too grows the
revolt of the working-class, a class always increasing in numbers, and disciplined,
united, organized by the very mechanism of the process of capitalist production
itself.... Centralization of the means of production and socialization of labor at last
reach a point where they become incompatible with their capitalist integument. This
integument bursts asunder. The knell of capitalist private property sounds. The
expropriators are expropriated."


I don't know about you but that is pretty clear. "The constantly diminishing number of the magnates of capital, who usurp and monopolies all advantages." Sound like mega corps being propped up by Government to you? Making the government the ultimate monopoly. It is unsustainable and will trigger a revolt... Makes perfect sense.

So, stop doing that. Oh wait... it is the revolt that is wanted... hmmm
Why...

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/staterev/ch05.htm


"The question then arises: what transformation will the state undergo in communist society? In other words, what social functions will remain in existence there that are analogous to present state functions? This question can only be answered scientifically, and one does not get a flea-hop nearer to the problem by a thousandfold combination of the word people with the word state."
...
"Between capitalist and communist society lies the period of the revolutionary transformation of the one into the other. Corresponding to this is also a political transition period in which the state can be nothing but the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat."


So bounce around some revolutionary period in a socialist state. This I think is where most normal liberals have the idea that living within this state is the coolness. The only problem is that isn't the goal here is it. Since we obviously have a following of Marxist ideals the end goal isn't socialism is it.

You tell me... if you were a follower of Marxist and had authority in a capitalist nation and wished to hasten its end... what better way than to feed the greed then exploit it to the benefit of the government until it becomes unsustainable and collapses. Technically you could make a case that Bush Jr started it. Or was he the one that was dumb enough to fall into the trap? I need to start my own conspiracy theory. The only problem is I would end up in the same place… The Bilderbergs.
 bwena
Joined: 2/5/2012
Msg: 85
Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 6/2/2012 10:42:32 AM
Thanks Grandmabooboo! That was spot on! We are being forced into socialism because the greed and criminal aspects that abuse capitalism has failed our society! Capitalism only works if it is also ethical and fair to all. So sad.

Its like cheating in Monopoly, and then being sad that the game ended so quickly.
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 86
Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 6/2/2012 11:02:21 AM

"The constantly diminishing number of the magnates of capital, who usurp and monopolies all advantages." Sound like mega corps being propped up by Government to you? Making the government the ultimate monopoly. It is unsustainable and will trigger a revolt... Makes perfect sense.

Marx was not putting his stamp of approval on this eventuality as you and your earlier wiki quote made it sound, which was my point. When Marx and Lenin recognized and described state monopoly capitalism, they were actually saying it was BAD. If you want to change the point you were making now without acknowledging it, that is called "moving the goalposts."

Also, the concept is a two way street. Government doesn't cause this to come true by itself; rich corporations in cahoots with government make it come true. At least acknowledge all the players involved. It seems to be an inevitability that the wealthy eventually co-opt governmental influence.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 87
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Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 6/2/2012 11:48:32 AM

It seems to be an inevitability that the wealthy eventually co-opt governmental influence.


I don't think so. As much as some people have abused and damaged our form of government, I don't subscribe to the cynicism about it that seems to have become fashionable. Call me a Pollyanna if you want, but I don't think I'm naive.

I believe the ultimate source of power and influence in this country is the ballot box. When enough people want something, they get it. There are never enough rich and influential people to stop them--and corporations don't vote.

Outlawing poll taxes is about the last thing I can imagine rich, influential people would want. They were always a means of keeping the have-nots from voting themselves a part of richer people's wealth--just show up and scrawl your "X" by the name of whatever conniver promised to throw the most of someone else's money your way. And yet so many people opposed poll taxes that they were finally able to amend the Constitution to make them illegal everywhere in the U.S.
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 88
Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 6/2/2012 11:52:30 AM
What part of putting spending back to the level of pre bush and we will talk do you not want to hear? Paying more into the failings of leftism is stupid. Being purposely stupid because someone says your mean unless you do it is stupid. You can't throw money at stupid and expect it to stop being stupid.

Yes so true my bad, I forgot how beneficial Bush and his policies where.

Yeah, best of luck with that.

You keep thinking it is some type of war of left and right and I guarantee you nothing will ever get done as that is pretty much what has been happening.

The GOP made it pretty clear that when Obama got elected they would do everything they could to make sure he would fail and now you are seeing the fruits of their labor.

Your failure to see that is just that, your failure and again if you think that giving the corporations even more power and control of your government will benefit anyone other then themselves you have really no clue.





We need to stop following leftist destruction of capitalism and stop creating mega monopolies and eliminating competition to protect those monopolies. That is leftism.

You really have no clue do you?

Mega monopolies are not products of the left, they are products of lobiest who want to have those monopolies.

Unless of course you could cite a few cases of where this has happened.
 OyVay...
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 89
Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 6/2/2012 12:55:47 PM
"Take, for instance, Facebook. The "capitalist" bankers, JPM, GS, et. al. where chomping at the bit to make a few billion by FORCING a PRIVATE company to "go public". NOW, after they've botched the process, they're trying to hang the blame on some techgeeks who NEVER claimed to BE finace people, never wanted to be finance people...they just wanted to be...techgeeks...and were being quite successful at it. Was that good enough for "capitalist" Wall Street? He11 NO! They had to get "THEIR" piece of the pie...in the INTEREST of the common "social good"!!!! LOL! Ya know...they had to make sure that Zuckerberg wasn't "exploiting" any of his employees! LOL! Sounds like "unionism" too you???(it does to me!)"

Oh grandmaboo, I'm kinda surprised at you, we usually come down on the same side of issues.

Sorry, to me, there is more than enough blame to go around on this one, EVERYONE gets to have blood on their hands! From the "techgeeks" to the bankers, to NASDAQ, to the talking heads who hyped it, to the greedy who saw a quick buck, than watched it evaporate before their eyes!

First off let's examine Zuckerberg, who basically stole the idea, moved it far enough along, before he settled with the guys, he stole it from...where do you think he got the money to settle that dispute with several of his partners and the people who had the idea before him? His techgeek piggy bank? No he got that from the bankers who HE invited in for a share of the company in exchange for more capital!

Next where did the money come from to further the company's growth, pay it's salaries to employees, pay for the servers, the code writing, the equipment, the office space come from? In the beginning he wasn't selling ads, when he did, the income wasn't meaningful in the beginning. So he needed MORE money to further his dream.

One of the other "techgeeks" was not as you describe "never wanted to finance people"! He certainly learned along the way to beat the system and even YOU! While they sat in their offices on the west coast and wrote the code, used equipment and USA citizens to build, run and make the company work for YEARS. When the company went public, he decided to move to another country to avoid having to pay taxes on his windfall. Now color me crazy, but that doesn't sound like someone who was financially naive! Those taxes he owed for his efforts of all those years won't be paid into the treasury, and as such, all of us, will have to make up for the shortfall, any body who doesn't think so is nuts! When the bills come due, or the check arrives, SOMEBODY has to pay it!

The greed on wall street is palpable I will be the first to admit. BUT it wasn't the bankers who forced Facebook public, it was a longstanding rule of the SEC. When private companies expand sales of their stocks to over 500 entities(different shareholders), they must by law register and go public. Otherwise companies can in effect be public without any open market to buy and sell shares. That way is ripe for abuse, since the company would be the first to know, who would be willing to buy shares, and who wants to sell shares and could manipulate the process of value, and even profit heavily by buying them well below market value and sell them way above.

The talking heads, kept espousing the 900 million users, the reach of FB, that it would be the next best thing since sliced bread...funny while all of them still talk about FB and the debacle it's IPO was, they seem to have lost all their quotes hyping the stock for the days, weeks and months before the IPO date!

Morgan Stanley allowed the company to start trading(set the opening price) at the equivelant of 105 billion in value. The YEAR before this happened Goldman Sachs(far from my favorite company as I've posted many times), not only owned a major piece of FB(private equity purchase years earlier), but had a value on the company of 50 billion. Do you really believe the company doubled in value in a year?

There's more, but I have posted most of the rest on other threads...
 Imported_labor
Joined: 3/7/2008
Msg: 90
Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 6/2/2012 1:13:08 PM

Until about 7 or so months ago, Mr. Howdy Doody had the senate and the house in his majority. So now, everything that he did that you don't like is to be blamed on about 7-1/2 months of the republicans controlling the House?


Seven months ago? That would make it November 2011, right? Was there an election in November 2011 that I didn't hear about?

The fact is that President has been battling the party of NO from day one of his administration. The Repugnicans are so ideological that they would even oppose a measure to forbid farting in the House!

Capitalism has failed already! If you don't believe it, go ask the many millions of middle-class people who worked and paid their taxes all their lives, tried to pay for the education of their children and put whatever they had left in a retirement savings account. The greedy plutocrats didn't have any qualms about getting as much as they could from the pension funds during the recession that their greed caused, and the retirement funds lost a great deal of their value thanks to the near economic collapse engineered by those who wanted to accelerate the transfer of wealth from the majority of the people to the greedy minority.
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 91
Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 6/2/2012 1:36:44 PM

Until about 7 or so months ago, Mr. Howdy Doody had the senate and the house in his majority. So now, everything that he did that you don't like is to be blamed on about 7-1/2 months of the republicans controlling the House?

I think this one has been covered above so no need to repeat.




Then you wrote:
"The GOP made it pretty clear that when Obama got elected they would do everything they could to make sure he would fail and now you are seeing the fruits of their labor. "

The fruits he is reaping is the fruits of HIS labor. I guess you could fall back to your default position and blame Bush-2, but that really is getting a bit thin.

The fruits of his labor have been an improving economy despite everything the GOP has tried to do, but I did forget he is black so you are right he sucks.

Because to deny that the economy has improved since he took over would be a complete fail to understand and the only other logical reason would be the person is blinded by hatred or ignorance.

Also not to understand that people are spending billions to convince others that things are bad when in reality they are actually getting better is laughable and shows they are not really paying attention to who is pulling the strings.





You tell others to produce cites for what they say....... then you blurt out the following; with no cite:
"Mega monopolies are not products of the left, they are products of lobiest who want to have those monopolies."

That would because anyone that knows anything about business and how it operates knows that the goal of any business is to eliminate its competition, market regulation are suppose to keeps that from happening by putting everyone on a level playing field.

If you had any business experience on a national level or global you would know this, but clearly you do not.
 OyVay...
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 92
Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 6/2/2012 2:09:09 PM
I disagree aristotle, "this one has been covered", no not anywhere near enough!

It doesn't really matter how much "what" is said, the truth is facts are nonexistent to republicans/conservatives. I'm sure he heard that on faux news, rush or one of those silly email chains, designed by Rove.

In the last 2 pages we have read any number of facts, that have never been refuted by them! Fact are like garlic to vampires(an apt description since we are discussing republicants), to republicans!! They have never met a fact, they could not twist, ignore or lie about! How else can you explain the loss of 12 months?

Look at the statement that you quoted:

"they are products of lobiest who want to have those monopolies."

As though, the lobbyists conjured them up, instead of citing the fact that the greedy,who run those monopolies, HIRE the lobbyists, not the other way around! It is the greedy, pumping billions into this election cycle, NOT the lobbyists, the ones who are already rich and powerful, spending money to become MORE rich and MORE powerful.

Why do so many in business embrace the teachings of Tsun Tzu? Because to them business is NOT enterprise, but actually war! They view any impediment(competition, regulation) as an anathema to their very purpose in being.

Why is it, 3 full years after the crash, almost 2 years since Dodd Frank, we have no law in place to regulate the banks? No one has been punished? You would lay this at Obama's feet, when the very laws that we would use to convict the culprits, are so vague, so ill written...that no one can actually achieve a conviction.

Beyond that is the baseness of the discussion. The pure hatred for something the republicants cannot understand. The "Hoody doody" comments, or the "birther" thing, or the accusations of "socialist" or "communist"...these people "may" hate him because he is black...many more hate him for reasons that are not only untrue, or because his views differ from their POV.

One embraces the constitution, then in the next breath spits on it! He does so, by not accepting the will of the people, the very act they did in 2008, by electing Obama. That WAS the will of the people, but he reduces everything to trite statements and insults to the man elected to be HIS President, whether he likes him, or voted for him or not!

I at least waited until Bush was out of office before calling him shrub, these guys won't even allow the honor of the office they are holding up to ridcule.
 turnitupman
Joined: 1/14/2010
Msg: 93
Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 6/2/2012 4:16:27 PM
Capitalism isn't capable of failing - it's a natural condition. I tend to scoff at people who say capitalism has failed because it's sort of like saying that gravity has failed because you want a boulder to roll uphill and it won't do it. It's not a system, it's just a force of human behavior.

Socialism is an attempt - a poorly designed attempt - to harness and restrict that force to the advantage of everyone. It's a noble goal, but it won't ever work because it goes against human behavior and psychology, which in the realm of social science are kind of like the laws of physics are in the physical world. Until someone designs a social system that actually harnesses our drives in an optimized manner instead of trying to control and restrict them, we're kinda stuck using capitalism.
 Sciencetreker
Joined: 2/13/2012
Msg: 94
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History
Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 6/2/2012 4:39:52 PM
Socialism is as much a part of human behavior. Humans are social animals that don't exist independent of human interaction once we leave the nest. Two hunters working to kill a bison and then defending their kill against two other hunters, then sharing the meat with a sick brother is a form of socialism.

The terms capitalism. socialism, etc. are largely meaningless outside of nitty gritty debate. Whether on a world scale of 7 billion people, nation size scales or our towns or cities, we have intricate mixes of both. Folks might discuss specifics of state funded education but we rarely debate 'do we need public schools'...we might debate regulation of food in grocery stores but rarely question the validity of private sector grocery stores. Societies are just too complex to divide them up into two sides of ledger.
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 95
Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 6/2/2012 4:41:02 PM

You tell others to produce cites for what they say....... then you blurt out the following; with no cite:
"Mega monopolies are not products of the left, they are products of lobiest who want to have those monopolies."

Take a look at the American Beer industry is you want to see how big business has leveraged the playing field with the help of lobbyists, right from rules surround production and distribution to marketing.




Until someone designs a social system that actually harnesses our drives in an optimized manner instead of trying to control and restrict them, we're kinda stuck using capitalism.

Meanwhile in Scandinavian countries things are going along swimmingly.

Can you imaging the outrage on Fox news if someone suggested that all fines be based on your income and not a flat rate like they do in some of those countries.

Do business succeed and thrive in those countries? Yes.

Is the populations happier and healthier? Yes.

Do corporations still make profits and people still earn very good livings? Yes.

Do they let corporations dictate social policy and control elections? No.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 96
Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 6/2/2012 4:44:25 PM
Socialism isn't capable of failing either. It too is a natural condition.

There is no "perfect state" of socialism. Socialism is just about degrees of government intervention in the economy and helping out those at the bottom. Even in ancient Rome the built roads and viaducts; provided food for the poor. Modern capitalism can't survive without socialism. Goods are moved on public roads and through public airports. Companies like Walmart depend on the welfare state to provide base line health care for their employees - they couldn't keep employees without it. The US has a modern mixed economy, just like every other first world nation. Those that don't, like Somalia, can't compete with those that do.
 Sciencetreker
Joined: 2/13/2012
Msg: 97
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History
Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 6/2/2012 4:47:50 PM
Aristotle, I agree except for the last statement in which I would say 'not as much'. The PM of Sweden is more likely to have lunch with the CEO of Volvo than Ingrid the waitress. Access to those in power can be as much an influence as financial contributions.
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 98
Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 6/2/2012 4:58:55 PM
^^^^
While that may be true I bet the CEO of Volvo pays a higher tax rate than the waitress.

Also despite the lack of regulations around lobbiest in those countries they still do not have near as much power as they do in the USA and Canada, which is probably related to controls with in the media, unlike in the USA where those controls where taken away with the help of guys like Roger Ailes when he worked with Reagen, which helped lay the ground work for the the propaganda machines know as cable news that we see today.
 GrandmaBooBoo
Joined: 12/30/2006
Msg: 99
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History
Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 6/2/2012 5:13:30 PM
OyVay, OyVay!!! LOL! I expected to come in here needing a tournaquet...and all you gave me was a little smack on the rear...LOL! Not that I don't enjoy that occasionally mind you!

:-) You are absolutely correct...I did, out of laziness, grossly oversimplify the IPO of FB, and was actually unaware of the history between Zuckerburg and the banks (for the most part). LOL! BUT, when you mention the number of FB USERS...and that finance guys see that as 900 MILLION opportunities to sell a product....Doesn't ANYONE tell these guys...."Hey, look, I have 3 CATS, and 1 dog....and THEY ALL have Facebook pages! Seriously....I hardly know ANYONE with less than 5 separate Facebook ID's. My children say that some of their friends have 10 (or more) That immediately cuts the number of actual users down to 180M and yet these guys are peddling this as a marketers dream come true. IF these guys are so freaking smart....why do they NOT know this? Which leads to the NEXT question...WHY are they NOT disclosing this in their prospectus?

NO, the company did NOT double it's value in 1 year...but I really question WHO was pushing the so called "fact" that it had? Surely you don't think that GS is above trying to con their stock holders into believing that GS assets are worth a LOT more than they really are??? I know...I can walk into a bank and they're all...."Ohhhh Ms. X....here, let us "give" you $300K....we know you're good for it! OMG!!!! REALLY? (ahhh, no dude....I'm NOT....really!) So, I really do question how much the fluxuating "value" of FB was on FB...and how much of that was on the bankers.
Of course....I'm pretty ticked off a bankers for the last 5 years, so my vision may be slightly blurred.

In any case, I wasn't really trying to build my argument around FB and should probably have thought of a better example, but the FB IPO was "handy"....so I grabbed it an ran with it. LOL! Next time I offer any stock market opinions I will check with my expert before I open big mouth and insert foot!

My comments about the Fed keeping interest rates at 0% being a "conspiracy theory" though....are still definitely "food for thought"!!! LOL!
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 100
Will Capitalism Fail?
Posted: 6/2/2012 5:31:35 PM

Some folks just can't admit to a failed system of government.

Thanks for the irony.

BTW how are thing in the US of A all peachy down there, no problems no issues seeing as you have such a perfect system and all?

Where things always really good, with no debts being wrung up from wars and tax relief for billionaires, or did all these problem just start happening when that black socialist / Marxist Kenyan guy got in office?


Though that said, I am just a stupid Canuck that only has business interests in the USA I can seem to remember before that Bush Jr guy took office you guys where in a pretty good place economically speaking, but maybe I was just imaging that so what do I know.

So please come over to the dark side where we have a history of taking care of poor people and providing a decent level of social care, because there is a good chance you would really like our current PM as he also seems hell bent on getting rid of everything that made Canada great and turning the country into a model of corporations first and people second.
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