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 OyVay...
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 36
Justifiable Homicide?Page 2 of 4    (1, 2, 3, 4)
Hmmmm, I guess some are for vigilantism!

"The father did what he should have done"

You can't know that, you weren't there. It's just an emotional reaction to the story, it may make you feel good to say that, but bears no evidence on what happened.

"Let someone come into my home"

Again, I frankly don't understand, how someone has a casual acquaintence, who's background they probably no little of, around their children. He11, we read in these forums EVERYDAY, about single moms, who will not allow people they date, to meet their children, until they are both sure of who they are, and if they see a future with them.

"should face the death penalty"

Well then I suggest you leave the country, and start one of your own. Because the lawmakers have established the laws in each individual state, that governs punishment for all offenses. In most states, the death penalty is reserved for those guilty of premeditated murder. Or at least, those charges that deal with the death of another. As heinous as child molesters and rapists are, they did not commit murder or take a life.

What people are saying here, is their emotional response, to an emotionally charged issue. Like I said in an earlier post, the idea of a Charles Bronson character, taking lives, of random bad guys, may make you feel good. I doubt things or circumstances, are that cut and dry.

Let's be clear here, I am not advocating for child molesters, rapists or any criminal...I am advocating for the rule of law, that is supposed to govern us all.
 Boricua Papi
Joined: 10/8/2007
Msg: 37
Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/19/2012 10:44:07 AM

I'm sorry if my rhetoric or tone upsets you. My points are still valid. Why have laws, if we can dispose of them in times of passion?


have you heard of citizen arrest? Citizens in a free republic can act as civilian police and in the absent of state representatives thay can uphold the law in certain cirscuntances. What law do this father have to wait for to defend his child? I guess if you were in this dad's position you would let this criminal attack your child.

God gave us common sense and a conscience. No, we are not animals we are human beings, that is why that father acted they way he did. Because he is a human being. But like animals we have survival instics. God made man with survival instics, God made man with a soul to see bad and evil, not just written laws.
 laughingatliberals
Joined: 10/11/2011
Msg: 38
Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/19/2012 11:26:30 AM

God gave us common sense and a conscience. No, we are not animals we are human beings, that is why that father acted they way he did. Because he is a human being. But like animals we have survival instics. God made man with survival instics, God made man with a soul to see bad and evil, not just written laws.


You are wasting your breath here these liberals would rather see child molesters to walk the streets than them face the justice they deserve.


And yes I would gladly end the life of anyone hurting my children or grandchildren....and I don't shoot at the body I'm taking out the head............hard for them to get up and attack again that way.


I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6!
 bucsgirl
Joined: 5/13/2006
Msg: 39
view profile
History
Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/19/2012 12:58:58 PM
"So if the intruder hadn't fled, do you think you would have beaten him after her was incapacitated, unconscious and you would have beaten him to death? Are you saying you're capable of deliberately ending life and would be justified in doing so, rather than protecting yourself and family from immediate danger? " I'm not going into further details, this isn't about my attack.....but HELL YEAH! I'd have whacked him with the bat until I was sure he stopped moving. No doubt about it, of course he attacked us in our bedroom in the middle of the night. I'd sleep just fine if I'd have taken his life.

The ONLY reason I even mentioned it because it is a first person experience and somewhat similar to the actual topic. I was hyped on adrenalin.....that's part of the instinct for self preservation but I'm not going to belabor and nit pit at every detail. You don't know how you'd react or what you would do, unless it HAS happened to you. That's the only point of me even mentioning it.
 OyVay...
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 40
Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/19/2012 1:44:53 PM
"I guess if you were in this position you would let this criminal atack your child"

Now answer me this, how can you quote one part of my post, but not have read the very first sentence? I said clearly I didn't know what my reaction would be. My hope would be to get this criminal off of her, yeah maybe hit him, subdue him, and hold him for the police. So he could stand trial.

So now lets deal with dirty harry:

"these liberals would rather see child molesters to walk the street"

Ok now show me one poster that even remotely said that? No one I have read advocated he go free, most of us have advocated for the legal system to do it's job. So who said they would want him to go free?

"I would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6"

So then you advocate that you would deserve to be tried, but the criminal deserves death by vigilante justice...nice double standard, but hey I expect nothing other than that by the many posts I have read by you.

Taking a life may look easy on the TV, it isn't so easy IRL, just look at some of the vets returning from wars who killed people, and see the emotional effect it has on them.
 SpringsDiver
Joined: 7/2/2011
Msg: 41
Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/19/2012 3:47:04 PM
Paul - but there is one poster who seems to think that UNLESS the molestor is there for the victim to confront and do who knows what, that the victim will never be whole again. That, and other psycho babble


Paul. Please consider that the poster you allude to in your post above may also be a vicitm. Each victim of molestation or abuse of any kind will deal with related issues in their own way. Yes, being able to confront the molester might be useful to the victim. Also, it is possible that the victim would prefer that the one who committed a crime suffers in their own way, by being imprisoned.

I am not saying what is the best choice, because the viewpoint varies from the one person to the next, and one victim to the next. Having never been a victim, I have a limited understanding of the difficulty living life after abuse entails. So do you, unless you have been a victim.
 7iron
Joined: 7/5/2008
Msg: 42
Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/19/2012 4:20:59 PM
FYI the Grand Jury met today and will not file any charges, he walks.
 OMG!WTF!
Joined: 12/3/2007
Msg: 43
view profile
History
Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/19/2012 5:25:14 PM

My hope would be to get this criminal off of her, yeah maybe hit him,


That right there is easily enough to kill a person. You said earlier that it's really hard to kill someone by beating them to death but there are literally thousands of incidents where one punch and a head bouncing off the ground has killed someone.


FYI the Grand Jury met today and will not file any charges, he walks


Seems like he should have at least been tried.
 laughingatliberals
Joined: 10/11/2011
Msg: 44
Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/19/2012 5:33:03 PM


FYI the Grand Jury met today and will not file any charges, he walks


Seems like he should have at least been tried


Well that goes to show how much people know about our justice system. To be tried you have to be indited. That means a grand jury (normal people) are presented the FACTS of the case and they decide if any laws are broken.

This grand jury did NOT find he broke the law........So NO he should NOT have been sent to trial!

The justice system found he was justified in his actions. Like it or not that is the way our justice system works.

In my opinion this man is a great father and a great American.
 OyVay...
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 45
Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/19/2012 5:36:17 PM
We can sit and argue recidivism rates all day long, whether pedophilia, or meth addicts or crack addicts or any number of other issues.

The reason you find no logic, is you're not looking for any. My point AGAIN, is the laws we are governed by. Even my biggest critic on here, lurking in the background, knows the truth in what I say. If you don't like the laws with regard to pedifiles, THAN change them!

While you may not agree with the one poster, who advocates for finding the root cause, and changing that. Looking to find a long term answer, as opposed to simply trying to kill them off, seems a better idea to me. That way, you rid society of the scourge, and don't have to pay as much to incarcerate them. If doctors see this as a disease, we should be looking for the cause, NOT the effect, and fix the problem.

But lets be frank shall we. Like all things I rail about. This is the same, you guys post up "kill them all"..never once do any of you join groups or engage law makers to redefine laws governing their punishment. It's far easier to give vent to your emotional diatribes, than to work within the system to change the things that are problems. A simple typing motion on here, while you sit on your duff, hit send and off goes your responsibility to change the things that affect our society, ENDS!

Children are our most precious gift. That this guy let someone he barely knew around his 4 year old, without benefit of supervision, calls his actions into question BEFORE the event took it's tragic turn. But you guys would rather howl for the perverts blood than acknowledge that aspect of things...

Maybe it's my value of all human life that makes all of you dislike my approach, I don't know.
 laughingatliberals
Joined: 10/11/2011
Msg: 46
Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/19/2012 5:49:01 PM

If doctors see this as a disease, we should be looking for the cause, NOT the effect, and fix the problem.


The problem was he was breathing......The father fixed the problem.....Our justice system says he was justified.

That pretty much sums it up.


Maybe it's my value of all human life that makes all of you dislike my approach, I don't know.


Well I think many here doesn't consider a pedophile a HUMAN.........I have more consideration for a c0ckroach than I do them.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 47
view profile
History
Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/19/2012 6:15:46 PM
Timing is important in cases like this. If the killer acted after he'd had a chance to cool off, it's harder to argue that he didn't premeditate the killing than if he acted the instant he witnessed whatever set him off. If someone leaves to get a weapon from his car or from another room, same thing. I don't know what evidence this grand jury was looking at, but apparently it thought the killing was not only unpremeditated, but was fully justifiable as defense of another person.
 statemachine500
Joined: 8/25/2011
Msg: 48
Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/19/2012 6:26:59 PM
Here's another thing. It takes a LONG time to beat someone to death with your bare hands. It's not an easy thing to do. At some point in time, it had to cross this guys mind, when the guy was beaten bloody and no longer resisting, to hold this suspect for the police, and he chose to kill him instead.(and no, I'm not going to explain how I know this.)


People have died from a single punch.Not to mention just how hard he would be throwing....


We can save the boo hoos for somebody that deserves it.
 laughingatliberals
Joined: 10/11/2011
Msg: 49
Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/19/2012 6:57:20 PM

Paul K

PS........ Correction:, the molestation did not take place behind a barn............. Here is what led up to the molestation.............
"During a social gathering on Saturday, the girl went inside the family's home in Shiner while other members of the family were tending to horses outside,"

So the FATHER now is negligent because his daughter went into HER OWN HOUSE?????

Really??


Paul my dad use to tell me to consider the source..........That pretty much explains why he would rather blame a little girl and her father than the monster that was attacking her.

The best thing is the father can now help his daughter get past this and not have to deal with a trial while doing so.
 OyVay...
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 50
Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/19/2012 7:16:56 PM
(yawn) nothing new here...

"Paul my dad use to tell me to consider the source"

Very wise advice indeed, I do that with ALL your posts!

I guess, you 2 haven't had a lot of interactions with 4 year olds. They do not have the capability to consider what is good or bad for them. As such, when I baby sit my grandsons, I always watch what they are doing. Perhaps its that lack of interaction that has you stymied about what parents should or shouldn't do. It only takes a minute to pick up a knife, or a match...

AGAIN, you both want to say I have regard for the pedofile, I don't but if it makes you happy to lie, have at it!
 laughingatliberals
Joined: 10/11/2011
Msg: 51
Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/19/2012 7:25:38 PM

Nice try, but a little late, a lot short. Not surprising, nowhere else to go, so go personal against the other posters.

Paul K


Of course he went personal that is all he knows. The tolerant seem to only tolerate their own kind.
 Irish Eyez
Joined: 12/30/2008
Msg: 53
Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/20/2012 7:13:35 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-18522383

No charge for dad who killed rapist.
 nonsensical
Joined: 8/20/2006
Msg: 55
Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/20/2012 9:43:23 AM
I'm just sorry noone punched Sandusky with the same force.
 SpringsDiver
Joined: 7/2/2011
Msg: 56
Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/20/2012 10:19:02 AM

Springsdiver - the poster you allude to


Jac The Gripper- I find it interesting that half way through this thread some posters stop referring to me by name.


I find it interesting that you did the same thing in your statement above. LOL!


Jaq the Gripper - feel like I'm being treated like I've got a dirty little secret that is socially unacceptable, that things I have said have made people feel uncomfortable, that I might be some kind of leper that no one wants to touch, or look in the eye.


I didn't mention your name simply because Paul hadn't, and I was quoting what he said. It has nothing to do with it being a hush hush subject, though IF you have suffered abuse it is in my opinion certainly only something that you should or could acknowledge. You have inferred entirely too much, IMO.


Jac The Gripper -Parents can be educated, not just in the basic no-no's as above, but which behavioural indicators to be aware of. Children can be educated (if only we could get past our problem with kids having sex education) to know what is appropriate behaviour from an adult, in terms of touching, or grooming, whatever.

The issue of how paedophiles can be most effectively dealt with to minimise risk to children on many different levels needs to be researched and dealt with. Realistically, only an optimum can be sought, given how unhealthy a society we have.


Agreed.


Jac The Gripper - I'm going to explain again.

Okay, the 4 year old child either goes into the house (maybe to use the bathroom) and is followed by the deceased, or the deceased maybe lures her in.

The father finds the deceased and the child together in the house and claims he was either molesting, or attempting to molest her, whatever that little euphemism means.


I suppose you used this scenario for illustrative purposes. If the press is to be believed, what happened in this particular incidence was different.

The Associated Press:

"Hearing his 5-year-old daughter crying from behind a barn, a father ran and discovered the unthinkable: A man molesting her. The father pulled the man off his daughter, authorities say, and started pummeling him to death with his fists."

"A statement released by the district attorney said a witness who saw Flores "forcibly carrying" the girl into a secluded area scrambled to find the father. Running toward his daughter's screams, the father pulled Flores off his child and "inflicted several blows to the man's head and neck area," investigators said."

"Emergency crews responding to the father's 911 call found Flores' pants and underwear pulled down on his lifeless body. "

In Conclusion

Though I don't advocate vigilante justice, I believe the Grand Jury acted appropriately in not indicting the father in this case. Though he beat the man, he did not apparently do so with the intent of killing him. He did what I believe most parents would have done in the same situation. IF a parent or other person finding this act occurring is able to keep their emotions in check, make certain the girl is safe, and call the authorities, that would be a more ideal circumstance, IMO. That assumes also that the perpetrator could be legally held for the authorities to arrest.


Jac The Gripper - I reiterate again, now the alleged perpetrator is deceased, any child who has suffered abuse, nay torture, at his hands has been permanently and legally silenced, from telling their whole story. It will forever remain something that they have to keep within.


While the child will not have the opportunity to confront the alleged perpetrator in court, I don't see how this how she would be "permanently and legally silenced, from telling their whole story". I don't see why they would have to keep anything "within". Please explain, if you care to.
 Boricua Papi
Joined: 10/8/2007
Msg: 58
Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/20/2012 11:31:53 AM
OyVay

You are on a losing battle against justice. Let's just wait what will you do in similar situation. Stay still and think about the laws and Greek philosophy or do all you can to protect your child from a criminal. All you do here is just nonsensical philosophy. With every new post you come with more non sensical comments that go beyond any normal brain. Go rest your soul for a bit.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 59
view profile
History
Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/20/2012 12:02:07 PM

Though he beat the man, he did not apparently do so with the intent of killing him.


Going by the facts we know, the father doesn't seem to have premeditated the killing. But that only explains why a charge of first-degree murder wouldn't stick. It doesn't explain why a grand jury found there wasn't enough evidence to indict him for *any* crime.

Maybe Texas' law about using lethal force in defense of another requires less than the usual proof that lethal force was necessary. Also, the little girl is the only person who could have witnessed the killing. Maybe the fact this took place inside the man's house had something to do with it. And maybe the incident is so emotionally charged that the members of the grand jury couldn't bear to see the father accused of any crime.
 bucsgirl
Joined: 5/13/2006
Msg: 60
view profile
History
Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/20/2012 12:37:51 PM
"OyVay

You are on a losing battle against justice." I agree with your post, well said. The said poster only speaks of justice for the accused, and shows no concern whatsoever, for the victim and her family, particularly her father. The victims were innocent people, going about their ordinary lives, when someone intruded into their lives to perpetrate a crime......a morally repugnant one, at that. A crime could be taking your watch, this was a crime against a person. You can replace a watch, a TV, you can't take back the horror of a crime against an individual, a child, no less!

"And maybe the incident is so emotionally charged that the members of the grand jury couldn't bear to see the father accused of any crime." All juries are sworn to decide cases based on the evidence presented and the judge's instructions, not on their emotional reactions. Either they agreed that the evidence presented fit the criteria of the charge or not. Also, I believe that, unlike trials, with a grand jury the decision doesn't have to be unanimous. If the judge felt like they were deciding based on emotions. it would be up to him to intervene, believe me, judges are VERY concerned about their records. So while it's not totally IMposssible, that is highly improbable.
 balrog67
Joined: 4/1/2012
Msg: 61
Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/20/2012 1:37:25 PM
If the judge felt like they were deciding based on emotions. it would be up to him to intervene


And how would he know that? Jurors don't deliberate in front of the judge. I can see the jury going into deliberations and one of them saying "I don't give a shit what the law might say, I'm not indicting this father for ANYTHING", and having virtually every other juror nod their head in agreement - especially in rural Texas.

Hell, I can see the judge telling them they didn't NEED to deliberate.

It's a little naive to think the law is closely followed by all citizens in all situations. Humanity is not that enlightened yet.
:-(
 Bishopboat
Joined: 9/3/2010
Msg: 62
Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/20/2012 2:00:19 PM
Yes, 100% justifiable. That's his child you're talking about, to say that you wouldn't kill them if you caught them in the act is a total lie.
 balrog67
Joined: 4/1/2012
Msg: 63
Justifiable Homicide?
Posted: 6/20/2012 2:08:30 PM

Is it safe to say that you don't agree with the decision of the Grand Jury?


No, it's not safe. Assumptions are like that....

Go figger.
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