|Justifiable Homicide?Page 3 of 4 (1, 2, 3, 4)|
Is it safe to say that you don't agree with the decision of the Grand Jury?
No, it's not safe. Assumptions are like that....
Posted: 6/20/2012 5:18:14 PM
|"Jurors don't deliberate in front of the judge. I can see the jury going into deliberations and one of them saying "I don't give a shit what the law might say, I'm not indicting this father for ANYTHING". First off the judge has control over the jury, do you think the judge didn't see the evidence and isn't familiar with the case? He doesn't just send them off to flip a coin, render a decision and go home. If I had that little respect for the justice system, I'd consider living elsewhere. Maybe it's just ignorance on your part on the role of the judge. There's been a lot of ignorance of how the system runs in general in this thread.|
Posted: 6/20/2012 5:34:58 PM
First off the judge has control over the jury, do you think the judge didn't see the evidence and isn't familiar with the case?
this was a GRAND jury which decides whether there is enough evidence to hold a trial, not a "jury" which decides guilt or innocence in a criminal jury trial.
the GRAND jury decides whether there is adequate evidence to "indict" a person (charge them with the crime & have a trial) or not.
there is no judge present of GRAND juries. the Prosecutor acts as legal adviser to the grand jury -there is also no defense attorney present .
Posted: 6/20/2012 8:53:17 PM
|"You are on a losing battle against justice"|
Sorry, there papi, I am all for justice, you seem to be siding with all the others on the side of vigilatism. That's ok, you and the others are entitled to your opinions, just as I am.
It's a thing that few can see past, through the eyes of emotion!
I believe, people like this should be tried, others would rather see them killed. I like my view, and pity others, their anger. Isn't that what debates are supposed to be about?
"Go rest your soul for a bit"
No need, I didn't kill anyone, others did, or would like to. It seems to me, you can never reason with the unreasonable, but hey, that's what makes a better debate.
Posted: 6/21/2012 6:54:12 AM
The 23-year-old father was alerted to the assault by a person on the ranch who saw Jesus Mora Flores, 47, carrying the girl to a stable.
The father told police he ran towards his screaming daughter and began beating Flores with his fists when he saw the ranch hand on top of the little girl with his trousers and underwear pulled down. Investigators said he "inflicted several blows to the man's head and neck area".
Now that more of those facts have been presented here, it appears that justice was done in that particular case all around. There was some forensic evidence to back up the fathers story, and he called 911 and tried to do what he could for the man when he realized he was dying. And the father actually may regret beating him to death.
If I could have personally caught up with the sociopath killer of two teenage girls out here in SD area a couple years ago that may also have been his fate.. With few regrets on my part. I was one of the area searchers for them.
Instead he sits for life in prison. A real waste of oxygen and resources for that non-human.
Posted: 6/21/2012 12:55:21 PM
Some one reported my post. I want to know what kind of harrassement or malevolent comment is this "You are on a losing battle against justice"
"Go rest your soul for a bit"
I believe many people report posters on the basis of jealousy. They disagree with others and start looking for venues to take that poster out. This is an adult site right? Adults don't do that reporting thing.
The guy did not premeditate what he did. It was not his intention. He just wanted to protect his child from harm.
You cannot join the Armed Forces, nor protect your nation based on that thinking.
Posted: 6/21/2012 2:15:51 PM
"Some one reported my post"
Pal, I have handled worse beatings than any thrown at me on this thread.
In all my years on here, I think I have reported posts twice, once for abuse on some woman, the other I don't remember. Even given that, if someone reads something and wants to report it, they are within the rules. Usually it's me taking the trip to banned camp, so I can't help you with your suspicions.
OT: I don't know what joining the armed forces has to do with anything.
"He just wanted to protect his child from harm"
I have no problem with him protecting his child. What I am saying, AGAIN, is we have laws to deal with this. He shouldn't have been judge, jury and executioner.
Go back and reread the thread, how happy people are that he acted in the manner of a vigilante. Sorry I don't agree with that mindset. He11 in Texas, you guys put a man to death, legally, that everyone now believes was innocent.
My point has been, will be..we have laws that govern our behavior, when you take the law into your own hands, you do a disservice to all of us. It's all moot at this point, since the grand jury, no billed this killing.
Posted: 6/21/2012 4:23:57 PM
|I didn't fail to realize anything. If you reread the post, I said the same thing in my last sentence.|
I'm not wallowing in anything...and my comment about changing the laws, if you remember correctly, was in direct repsonse to your argument about recidivism, something you can't even seem to spell correctly.
As for the rest of your post(yawn) just filler and snarkys...no reason to respond.
Posted: 6/22/2012 5:55:54 AM
When we reduce law, to a vigilante type of justice, we are no better than the animals, that should be convicted of crimes like this
Sir- it would appear to some that you are being quite hypocritical. In another thread, you say that it is ok for illegal aliens to be here illegally. Mainly because you don't agree with that particular law.
One can only surmise by the dichotemy of opinions on these 2 issues that you think you should be able to pick and choose which laws should be handled "vigilante" stlye, and which laws should be handled by the court sytem.
It's almost as if you sir, think that you should get to determine which laws society follows and which ones they ignore. Careful, some might come to think that you are an arrogant arse.
Posted: 6/22/2012 8:07:03 AM
|There is no law that would prevent me from killing someone who raped my child. |
We ARE animals, and law keeps us civil...but dont press on about laws when 1 human/animal breaks such laws and then expect the other humans/animals to hold back because of the law. An action was put into motion, an unlawful, sick action. That ALL resides with the offender. I have no sympathy for someone who thought he could rape someones child and still be treated with the 'dignity of the law'.
If I were on such a jury/case my vote would be to drop all charges...and let him rebuild his life. Living with what happened is awefull enough for this father. Taking him away from the child he was protecting just adds insult to injury.
In some cases, I dont think Humans striving to be better than animals is the way to go. This is one of those cases. The offender acted like an animal, and needed to be put down like the animal he was. You want to be treated with human dignity? Then dont behave like an animal.
Posted: 6/22/2012 9:14:23 AM
|@90 I doubt I ever said it was ok for illegal aliens to be here. I might have advocated for a better law, which it seems everyone in congress says as well. They just haven't passed or worked on the situation, which they have put off for over 10 YEARS! Because it is a hot button issue, and no one wants to deal with it.|
You can feel free to surmise anything you want. I don't believe we should "pick and choose" anything. Our legal representatives passed laws, governing our behavior, and assigning punishment for when those laws were broken.
As for "arrogant arse", well you sir are entitled to think of me, in any way you please. I am entitled to post my opinion, no different than anyone else.
Bottom line, while I get everyones desire to have a positive spin on this. Find it emotionally gratifying, to see this person killed, it hardly eliminates the problem from our society. These people are sick, in their mind, for whatever reason, it obviously is not the norm in our society. When our society starts to punish people without benefit of trial, sooner or later, the wrong person will be killed, maimed or whatever. It has happened before, it will happen again.
In this case, obviously there was eye witness evidence of the heinous nature of the offense. Therefore, he should have been punished, where most of you and I disagree, is the way it happened.
Posted: 6/22/2012 10:39:32 AM
i think the trouble with law, justice, due process and whatever is that ordinary folk
have lost faith in the whole lot of the above.
over here we have the polis who act like an occupying army. then you have the law and justice
the law may be followed but justice does not get done.
some semi senile old goat sitting half sleeping in his chair high up in court does not have a clue
whats going on in the world.
i cannot condemn what the lassies dad did. in fact he done the local community a massive favour.
i would not trust the police, lawyers, judges and the whole legal process to deliver justice
Posted: 6/22/2012 10:53:36 AM
The father did not intend to kill this pervert. He did not run and got a knife or a gun. He went straight to defend his child from harm. What happened as result of that action is not murder, it is legitimate self defense(or defense of a child in this case). Please stop with your philosophical-liberal-progressive views of state laws. Stop with your turning a legitimate and justifiable action into a cold blooded murder. Or just move to a Islamic country where there is no laws or statuses to defend women, children and elderly.
This father was not a "vigilante". His actions were justified and our society and our jurors decided he is not guilty. Now STOP!
I wonder if you are here to date ladies or just to defend the undefendable.
Please JUST STOP. Every new comment of yours is more nonsensical than the previous one.
Posted: 6/22/2012 11:22:03 AM
Therefore, he should have been punished, where most of you and I disagree, is the way it happened.
I would agree with you if the father had walked away, formulated a plan and then re approached the offender with harm. That is vigilante.
Walking in and seeing an animal on top of your child humping her...you are now reduced to react like an animal. There are certain crimes, that when witnessed, bring out the animal inside us all, and this is one of those crimes. The man raping this child put an animalistic act into motion. In a perfect world, the father would have pushed the offender off his daughter, restrained the offender and called law enforcement to deal. Get real...the very fact that a man was humping a child tells you, this scenario is not a representation of a perfect world and I would not expect any human to act perfectly under these conditions. I think that is asking too much, not matter how civilised we think we have become. If we were so civilised, a grown man wouldnt have been humping a child in the first place.
Posted: 6/22/2012 12:03:46 PM
|OK, I give up..my last post on this beauty...you are all right, and I am wrong.|
Let's hit some of the highlights, that persuaded me of the error of my ways:
#54 "The problem was he was breathing"
#92 "maybe our government should consider "selling" or "indenture the servitude" of afore mentioned individuals to 3rd world nations"
#94 "death to child molesters and animal abusers. "A good illegal alien is a dead illegal alien""
#99 "We have a winner" referring to #94
Makes you proud to be a merican, now don't it. Then someone tells me "am I here to date", as though posting is mutual exclusive with dating. I get it, you'd rather see more of this, than the rule of law. No problem.
Posted: 6/22/2012 1:17:19 PM
|In post #85, I said "it's moot, the grand jury no billed the killing" which to me means that YES, the grand jury made it's decision, YES it is the law, YES the father got legitimately off.|
"that YOU know better"
Now that maybe your impression, aside from all your snarky comments, what I believed, believe is quite irrelevant since the law and the courts disposed of the case.
Oh and BTW, who is making assumptions now? Then again, you always try and push your agenda on others, while insulting them, nothing new here.
Posted: 6/22/2012 3:53:40 PM
And yeah we do drag them back in our home after we have shot them!
Oh please, this is not about being Texan. This is matter of justice. This guy could have been from Jamaica and his actions would still be justified. Do not turn this case into talk about dragging people to death. Texas has a sad history of repression, discrimination and racial hate, so do not go there ma'am!
Posted: 6/22/2012 4:27:44 PM
|"And yeah we do drag them back in our home after we have shot them!"|
EXACTLY...hahahahaaha!! Texas is indeed the model of this type of thinking...any place that could produce people like shrub, darth vader and their current governor...makes for a place to avoid...must be the water...
Posted: 6/22/2012 4:45:07 PM
Personnally I think someone should have blown Sandusky's face off years ago. But I'm a Texan & you just don't mess with our kin folk.
The fact that he is still smiling and expecting some kind of understanding is really infuriating.No way they should give special consideration for these guys in jail,they should go into the general population....and get a "taste"of what they've been giving out.
Posted: 6/24/2012 2:55:19 AM
Here's another thing. It takes a LONG time to beat someone to death with your bare hands. It's not an easy thing to do. At some point in time, it had to cross this guys mind, when the guy was beaten bloody and no longer resisting, to hold this suspect for the police, and he chose to kill him instead.(and no, I'm not going to explain how I know this.)
You won't explain because you clearly don't know this... You watch way to many cowboy flicks where men beat each other around all day. As someone who's taken martial arts ((Shotokan mostly)) I will tell you that even when not enraged ((And I assume the father was somewhat pissed)) a person can throw the same fore of their own body into a punch ((If they are well trained with practice.)) If you way 230lbs... That's what you can throw into a guy if you punch from the center while properly applying your force ((AKA not tightening up your muscles until the moment of impact)). A 200lbs man could easily cause enough head trauma with a strike at this lvl of force to kill another man.
Also assuming he was NOT trained how to do a proper strike... And he might not have been. It's still quite possible he could kill him. If he hit his nose then the fragile cartilage can be broken away and forced into the brain. Actually a lot of accidental deaths happen that way. However it requires the right angle. Another thing that a "normal" person would be able to do in one strike would be to hit with enough force to make the head snap back. This would break the neck thus killing the target. OR a person can be killed from the fall. OR the father might have lost it from seeing someone rubbing his **** over the dad's 4 year old daughters face and lost control with no thought of killing or not killing. His face could have swelled around the nose and mouth and he could have suffocated to death. From the OP we do not know since they just say beaten to death.
I won't argue right now if the man was in the right. But listening to someone say a person can't kill in one hit is laughable. Most real fights ((Not martial arts sparring or little squabbles with you bar buds)) but life and death fights with no rules ARE over in about 1 to 3 strikes. That's why making them count is important. Boxers are a bad example because they use padded gloves. Those guys pack a punch that could liquify your brain ((Slightly embellished for effect there lol)) if they "took the gloves off" as it were.
It's sad but the human body is VERY fragile. I went over head shots that can kill... But there are so many more ways to kill a person with one hit it's not even funny. In fact there are about seven kill zones to strike at on the human body.
My fav for self defense is to strike a person hard in the arm pit which will break and force a rib into their lungs... They will fall over and slowly drown in their own blood. I think girls should know this one in case the pepper-spray is a little hard to get too. That is one of the weakest bones in your body under the arm pit. Anyway I'm off topic.... lol
Posted: 8/24/2012 7:54:54 AM
|This is the 'death penalty..for or against' argument under a different guise.|
Posted: 8/24/2012 12:18:19 PM
|Yes, more than alright. It should be mandatory father training.|
Posted: 9/3/2012 8:07:15 PM
|once i was a meeting and people often brought kids who ran around in and out of the room.One dad realized his daughter was gone and went looking for her. He walked in on a man molesting her(this man was known to him and often babysat) I walked in on the commotion he was about to kill the guy. I grabbed the dad and jacked him up and told him that he need to worry about his daughter and he can't help her from jail. He was holding her hand so she was witnessing this. We went outside as the police arrived. I then somehow became the girl's caretaker. the police asked me to sit with her. I sat with her in the police car and we talked about Barbies and sometimes she would talk about the man. We would talk about cartoons or flowers. I kept reassuring her that he was a bad man and it was not her fault. The police asked me to stay with her she would not talk to or look at any men including her dad. They took us to the rape center. She would not sit on her dads lap she would go to him then run away. So I ended up holding her on and off. I noticed she had lice, but i didn't stop holding her. I told the nurse and she gave me 2 treatments and told me what to do. The girls mom came and she was afraid her mom would be mad at her. I told her I would beat anyone up who would be mad at her it was not her fault and the bad man should not have done this to her.|
The doctor had to examine her and she would not let my hand go so I had to go in with her. I held that six year old little girls hand as the doctor was examining her then she screamed that is where the man touched that is what he did to me.
This happened 24 years ago. I remember every word every movement. The man was released on bail. Several large biker guys drug him out of his house and beat the stuffing out of him.
I have no idea how I knew what to do and where I got the strength. I went home and bagged my clothes took a hot shower and used the lice treatment.
I am sorry if I offend anyone. Molesters/rapists deserve to die. You can not fix them. The earth doesn't need them. Once you harm a child you should lose all your rights. I seen her pain first hand and I can only imagine how much pain she had growing up because of him. No child should have to go through that.
He was justified.
Posted: 9/3/2012 10:35:15 PM
|Wow, powerful post Debydu z. Thanks for sharing it with us and thanks for helping her weather the severe trauma.|
Posted: 9/4/2012 6:19:19 PM
|The U.S. Supreme Court ruled also in 1898 that "a true man does not fly in the face of an aggressor who seeks to do him grievous bodily harm." |
This is the "stand your ground" law which is in effect in more than half of our states, today. Including Georgia.... which adopted a more recent version in 2006 to include court decisions.. ie Georgia vs. Zimmerman
"Make my day" and "Castle" laws are in effect in almost every state. Even California (which sadly does not include theft).
I'd say take this to a jury of our peers. The public opinion here can give an idea how a slice of the population feels.
Who in their right mind would put the rights of a pedophile before the safety of a child?