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 adamoof
Joined: 9/12/2011
Msg: 13
Capitalism and the environmentPage 2 of 2    (1, 2)
Well, Paul K
I am ready for your discussion in my view, provided that convince me your opinion
I have a questions and answers is part of the solution or diagnosis of the problem
- Do you now there is capitalism?
What is the alternative to capitalism?
Is this alternative led the world to prosperity or to the problems and destruction
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 14
view profile
History
Capitalism and the environment
Posted: 7/16/2012 4:50:01 PM

Hey Igor.........

You wrote in reference to who polluted more:
"China and the old Soviet block nations are mixed neck and neck with their capitalist comrades."

Umm... not even close.


Paul, no offense, I'm on your side on this one, you missed that I was responding to the guy who tried to claim that some "study" in England showed that the US was the number two worst air polluter or something. I'm 100% with you. I've seen the pictures of how incredibly sloppy and callous especially the old Soviet Union was about managing their own back yards.

It's my contention that the OP's idea that the Earth will be better off ecologically under a Communist system, is complete nonsense.
 adamoof
Joined: 9/12/2011
Msg: 15
Capitalism and the environment
Posted: 7/16/2012 5:45:40 PM
Paul K
I asked: Do we still have a capitalist system in the world? You did not answer, and settled for giving advice to change the question was asked
Now I will prove to you that there is now a capitalist system in the world, located a distorted economy does not create wealth.
It is known that the capitalist economy is on the surplus value, which is the only source of profit.
With the liberation of peoples from colonialism, capitalist countries have lost their markets, because the capitalist system consists of center and parties, these parties are the place of sale of goods.
Also characteristic of the capitalist system is a huge working class and the huge abundance of production of goods
Does this exist now? This is just the answer to the first question
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 16
Capitalism and the environment
Posted: 7/16/2012 8:09:32 PM

It's my contention that the OP's idea that the Earth will be better off ecologically under a Communist system, is complete nonsense.

It's MY contention that the Earth would be much better off in a state of complete anarchy where there are no systems at all and the law of the jungle prevails, where everyone is only out for themselves, killing their less affluent neighbours for whatever resources they might be good for and letting those with insufficient resources to to bother robbing them of die off in the game called "survival of the fittest", thus aiding in depopulation of the useless eaters for the greater good of all.

RATS!…I forget now…Is that anarchy, capitalism, or just a free market economy?…Sometimes it's hard to tell the difference.
 ExitingTheStage
Joined: 5/25/2011
Msg: 17
Capitalism and the environment
Posted: 7/16/2012 9:29:53 PM
Whatever it's called JustDukky.... how you just described the Earth should be.... well it already is the law of the jungle.
The Imperialist Capitalist elite just like to give it a different name.
The Free Market title is hilarious.... free... with all it's rules.

The Fair market with rules that ensure the benefit of all should be the law governing the world economy.

Compassionism based on compassion instead of capitalism based on capital sounds better to me....

But some greedy, arrogant self-centered person would fight the rules and taxes that would feed, educate and provide healthcare for all... because they would no longer be able to play with their 4x4 monster trucks and the rest of the luxury toys ....
 ExitingTheStage
Joined: 5/25/2011
Msg: 18
Capitalism and the environment
Posted: 7/16/2012 9:54:14 PM

Actually, capitalist systems do sell to other nations, both free and former colonial states, but most sell what they produce largely to their own citizens.


The ones that sell the products they make to themselves.... are taking care of their own nation... instead of selling out and leaving the citizens to suffer.

U.S, Olympic team uniforms.... Made in China
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 19
Capitalism and the environment
Posted: 7/17/2012 8:29:54 AM

The Fair market with rules that ensure the benefit of all should be the law governing the world economy.

Get that idea out of your head. Monopoly wouldn't be any fun at all if the winner couldn't drive the losers into bankruptcy, homelessness & starvation. Hey…Somebody's gotta win and the losers deserve to suffer and die for not being as good at the game.

I wonder when it's gonna dawn on the 99% that the only way to win is not to play the game in the first place.


Compassionism based on compassion instead of capitalism based on capital sounds better to me....

Sounds better to me too, but that seems to be a hard sell around here, so I gave up and joined the other side in its headlong race to mass suicide for the sake of profit. It is now my hope to be buried in a Bugatti Royale lined with T-bills as proof that I won the monopoly game before I croaked (unless I am the last to die, in which case I'll try to live as long as I can by eating my money to stay alive)


The ones that sell the products they make to themselves.... are taking care of their own nation... instead of selling out and leaving the citizens to suffer.

I talked about this for years too. I called it internalizing the economy. Unfortunately humans must have severely limited intelligence, because whenever I mentioned it they tilted their heads back and forth ... like dogs who didn't understand the master's command.
 Kings_Knight
Joined: 1/20/2009
Msg: 20
Capitalism and the environment
Posted: 7/17/2012 12:19:54 PM

" ... This is one of the reasons why I advocate a Resource-Based Economic Model. ... "


Okay. Fine. A 'resource-based economic model'. Like Obama says: "Just words. Just speeches." ... you maybe have a CONCEPT you'd like to use to flesh out the words ... ? Why would your 'resource-based' model be superior to capitalism - which is, itself, 'resource-based' ... ? Right now you're sounding an awful lot like Rosa Luxemburg, who cited a line from Engels re the beginnings of WWI: “Bourgeois society stands at the crossroads, either transition to socialism or regression into barbarism.” ... which leads me to suspect your 'resource-based economic model' is nothing more than the usual Utopian / Dystopian warmed-over Socialist / Communist 'economic pablum' the OWS / 'revolutionary' / 'social justice' types love to deify as they bleat condescendingly to those of us whom they regard as the 'great unwashed masses' ... talk about the 'pot' and 'kettle' analogy ...

In the third volume of 'Capital', Marx distinguishes between the “realm of necessity” and the “realm of freedom.” He maintains that, in the realm of necessity we must “wrestle with Nature to satisfy [our] wants, to maintain and reproduce life”, by means of physical labor in production. This realm of necessity, Marx says, exists “in all social formations and under all possible modes of production”, including - presumably - socialism. What distinguishes socialism, then, is that production is rationally planned and democratically organized, rather than operating at the 'whim' of the capitalist or the market.

In your 'resource-based economic model', however, the world would, by necessity, be characterized by simultaneous abundance and scarcity. The liberation of production would occur jointly with planning and management of the inputs of production. So, while the need to control labor disappears, you would still need to manage the inevitable scarcity.

To sum up, capitalism, at its base, is not defined by the presence of capitalists, but by the existence of capital, which is inseparable from the process of commodity production by means of wage labor.

And your definition of the 'resource-based economic model' would differ from my explanation how ... ? I'll wait.
 adamoof
Joined: 9/12/2011
Msg: 21
Capitalism and the environment
Posted: 7/17/2012 3:30:32 PM
In the third volume of 'Capital', Marx distinguishes between the “realm of necessity” and the “realm of freedom.”
Marx was explaining the evolution of human societies as physical dialactic

So your example is misplaced
 Kings_Knight
Joined: 1/20/2009
Msg: 22
Capitalism and the environment
Posted: 7/17/2012 5:29:48 PM

" ... This is one of the reasons why I advocate a Resource-Based Economic Model. ... "


(1) And this is why I said: "you maybe have a CONCEPT you'd like to use to flesh out the words ... ?"


" ... Well for starters you haven't even described an RBE whatsoever. mainly because you haven't even shown any evidence for knowing anything about its specifics. ... "


(2) It's not my task to describe your mythical 'RBE' - that's your baby. Now you've gone and posted a long anti-capitalist screed in which you say you're 'not proposing Marxism' while proposing concepts that flow exactly along that line of 'economic thought'. What's sad is that you remain unaware that's what you're doing.


" ... Now I will wait for you to look this material up for yourself, learn what an RBE actually is ... "


(3) With all the words, space, & bandwidth you used for that 'reply', you still fail(-ed) to address my question and chose instead to go all snarky and 'petulant child' on us. "Well, YOU do it! I won't do it for you!" ... please ... Your refusal to post a simple, understandable response to a simple question is an overt admission that you have no rational basis to advocate what is, essentially, an emotional 'warm-fuzzy-feel-good' construct of homespun nothingness. I said I'd wait, and look what I got for my time ...

It's your conceptual burden to provide proof for your assertion - not anyone else's.
 HalftimeDad
Joined: 5/29/2005
Msg: 23
Capitalism and the environment
Posted: 7/17/2012 6:49:45 PM

Discussing the "finer points" of marxism is about on the level when a group of college frat boys

So.....you want to continue to throw out accusations of "Marxist" a lot. You just don't want to talk about what he actually wrote.

It's better for you to define it without ever actually having to defend your definition. Just so we're clear.
 Kings_Knight
Joined: 1/20/2009
Msg: 24
Capitalism and the environment
Posted: 7/17/2012 7:02:23 PM

" ... Absolutely. And I have discharged my burden of proof. Like I said a moment ago, it is now up to you to read through what I have put, consider the inforation on its own merit and address it. Not just cherry-pick the very few bits that you have a condescending remark for. ... "


Actually, you haven't 'discharged' anything because you've posted nothing relevant to the subject YOU brought up. Nice try, no cigar. See ya ...
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