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Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > Mass Shooting at Colo. Movie Theater, 12 People Dead[CLOSED ]      Home login  
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 OyVay...
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 76
Mass Shooting at Colo. Movie Theater, 12 People DeadPage 4 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)
I keep missing where you get your facts from Columbia and North Korea do not even register among the top 15 gun manufacturing nations in the world...I doubt very much that North Korea who has ZERO ability to export anything to this country..is a major supplier here!

Especially since anything from their would be watched doubly since we have so many sanctions against them.

What's more to the point, is if US manufacturers were retricted from making extended magazines, these wacko's wouldn't be able to buy them. Or if assault rifles weren't allowed to be marketed the same would be true of them as well.

This has little to do with the 2nd amendment, the founding fathers in the time of muskets hardly envisioned banana clips and rapid fire weapons...or they surely would have changed their thoughts on the whole gun issue.

As for the Cato institute, well how about quoting an independent source, and not a front for the Koch Brothers...

VVVVedit to add: Even the Supreme court makes mistakes. Especially with the gun lobby pressuring them...and who cares what book you cite, I'm sure there are many books that cite the opposite. But then you wouldn't mention them now would you. VVVVV
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 77
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History
Mass Shooting at Colo. Movie Theater, 12 People Dead
Posted: 7/20/2012 9:22:01 PM

your bizarre contention that more armed people equals less crime or death. What a crock. More armed people means criminals will escalate their violence in response to the increased threat against them.


It's not just my contention. A well-researched book and thoroughly documented book has been written on this subject. It supports what I said and contradicts what you are asserting.


That's no doubt precisely what the framers of the constitution had in mind with a well-regulated militia.....


I doubt you know what they had in mind--and it wouldn't matter if you did. In two decisions over the last few years, the Supreme Court has given its answer.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 78
Mass Shooting at Colo. Movie Theater, 12 People Dead
Posted: 7/20/2012 9:48:16 PM
Yeah i actually do but i'm still waiting on who these criminals that are running those two countries are that you speak about.

So you don't believe that corrupt gov't officials, up and down the "chain of command" from high functionaries to beat cops, that take kick backs and pay-offs from drug lords and other organized criminals are criminal...?
 Blalah
Joined: 3/25/2012
Msg: 79
Mass Shooting at Colo. Movie Theater, 12 People Dead
Posted: 7/20/2012 9:58:40 PM
"Colorado shooting suspect James Holmes purchased 6,000 rounds of ammunition, along with four guns, online in the weeks leading up to the tragic event that claimed numerous lives and left dozens injured at a movie theater outside Denver."

In the weeks leading up to it?
So tell us how Rush Limbaugh' s comments about the movie 2 days ago "had a connection" on the tragic event mr miss information. Those lefty blogs must be a riot to read.
 raxarsr
Joined: 7/10/2008
Msg: 80
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History
Mass Shooting at Colo. Movie Theater, 12 People Dead
Posted: 7/20/2012 10:02:38 PM
actually oy....our founding fathers did have those things in mind...the 2nd amendment was written so the people could have the same weapons as the military

that being said.....no...i do NOT think we all need an f-18 or a nuke in our back yard........or an abrams in the driveway

i'm a shooter.....and a fairly good one......i also ccw.........and its very true that most....if not all movie theaters are places where your not allowed to carry...schools and public arenas..[sports games etc] are almost always on the list too

that being said....had i been there....and if i would have been carrying......i doubt very much i would have fired

i mean seriously?....in a crowded, panicked theater?,,,,,no lights......smoke?........no way.......and i dont know of any other responsible gun owner that would have either

what i find strange about all the folks calling for more gun control......why is it these are the same folks who are in favor of early release of convicted criminals?.........why are they the same groups who bend over backwards to give a criminal more rights that the victim..or even an average citizen?

how about we enforce the 20 thousand plus gun laws already on the books?
how about we bring back the death penalty and rigouriously use it?
how about .when someone is convicted of a violent crime..they do every single second of their sentance
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 81
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Mass Shooting at Colo. Movie Theater, 12 People Dead
Posted: 7/20/2012 10:04:00 PM
Your much vaunted 2nd amendment rights


You couldn't make your contempt for those rights much more clear. They happen to be the law everywhere in this country. To quote you, think about that for a second if you can spare the neurons.


how about we bring back the death penalty and rigouriously use it?
how about .when someone is convicted of a violent crime..they do every single second of their sentance


Agreed on both counts. A sentence of ten years should mean ten years, not three. The death penalty is available to any state, but some don't choose to make it their law. It's on the books in California, but almost no one sentenced to death gets executed. Even the mastermind of 9/11 is still alive more than ten years later--hasn't even been tried.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 82
Mass Shooting at Colo. Movie Theater, 12 People Dead
Posted: 7/20/2012 10:24:46 PM
Here's another of the little (well, actually, big) lies that the Cato Inst. tells you..

In Israel... for example, a license to possess guns is available on demand to every law-abiding adult, and guns are easily obtainable in both nations. Both countries also allow widespread carrying of concealed firearms...

In fact, the opposite is what is true... Israel has some of the MOST restrictive gun control laws in the world...

This is from wiki, but you can confirm it on your own elsewhere if you don't trust it...

It is forbidden in Israel to own any kind of firearm, including air pistols and rifles, without a firearms license. Israel Defense Forces officers honorably discharged with the rank of non-commissioned officer, reservists honorably discharged with the rank of regimental commander, ex-special forces enlisted men, retired police officers with the rank of sergeant, retired prison guards with the rank of squadron commander, licensed public transportation drivers transporting a minimum of five people, and full-time dealers of jewellery or large sums of cash or valuables, Civil Guard volunteers, and residents of militarily strategic buffer zones considered essential to state security are eligible for licenses allowing them to possess one handgun. Reservists honorably discharged with the rank of regimental commander are also eligible for licences allowing them to possess one rifle. Licensed hunters may possess one shotgun, and licensed animal-control officers are allowed to possess two rifles. Civil Guard snipers may possess one rifle. To legally own a gun as a souvenir, prize, inheritance, or award of appreciation from the military, an individual must first present proper documentation that they are about to receive it. Permits for gun collectors are extremely rare, and typically only given to ex-high-ranking officers. To obtain a gun license, an applicant must be a resident of Israel for at least three consecutive years, have no criminal record, be in good health, have no history of mental illness, pass a weapons-training course, and be over a certain age (20 for women who completed military service or civil service equivalent, 21 for men who completed military service or civil service equivalent, 27 for those who did not complete military service or civil service equivalent, 45 for residents of East Jerusalem). Gun licenses must be renewed every three years. Firearms permits are given only for personal use, not for business in the firearms sale. Permit holders for self-defense purposes may own only one handgun, and may purchase a maximum of fifty rounds a year, except for those shot at firing ranges.

Residents of Israeli settlements in the West Bank are issued assault rifles and ammunition by the army, and are given civil defense training. However, the rifles and munitions are property of the army, and may be confiscated at any time.

Members of officially recognized shooting clubs (practical shooting, Olympic shooting) are eligible for personal licenses allowing them to possess additional firearms (small bore rifles, handguns, air rifles and air pistols) after demonstrating a need and fulfilling minimum membership time and activity requirements. Unlicensed individuals are allowed supervised use of pistols at firing ranges. Following a number of cases of firearm-related suicides at firing ranges, private individuals who do not own firearms are required to present a certificate of good conduct and a physician's health declaration in order to shoot at commercial firing ranges.

Self-defense firearms may be carried in public, concealed or openly. Israel is notable for being a country with few places where firearms are off limits to licensed individuals (private premises, some government offices and institutions, courts).

In addition to private licenses of firearms, organizations can issue carry licenses to their members for activity related to that organization (e.g. security companies, shooting clubs, other workplaces).

Soldiers are allowed to carry their personal weapons and ammunition while on furlough during active service, uniformed or in civilian clothing.

There are about 200,000 private citizens and 154,000 security guards licensed to carry firearms. Another 34,000 Israelis who were previously licensed own guns illegally due to their failure to renew their gun license.[36][37]

The regulation for gun ownership became stricter following the assassination of Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin in 1995. Gun ownership in Israel is considered a privilege and not a right.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics#Israel

Note that 200,000 private citizens of almost 8,000,000 is about 2.5% of the population or a rate 0f 2.5 per 100 (compared to 88.8 per 100 in the US)... a drop in the bucket compared to the US, and THEY are pretty much at war in their own country most of the time...

And, just to emphasize... I'll repeat the other lies I pointed out to you (which you mysteriously declined to rebut)...

Swiss rates of gun ownership aren't even close to the US... the US rate is almost double the Swiss rate... Swiss=45.7 per 100, US=88.8 per hundred...

Of course the Swiss murder rate is lower, there are only half the guns per person... US gun ownership rates are almost double the Swiss... well guess what...? US murder rates are almost double the Swiss as well... Isn't that a neat little correlation...? The Swiss have almost half the guns, almost half the gun deaths and similar laws...

And your boys at Cato are looking at all crime when they compare crime rates across Europe, not strictly gun crime (the two are NOT identical measures)...

Do you care to answer to that or will you simply ignore it because you can't rebut it...?
 raxarsr
Joined: 7/10/2008
Msg: 83
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Mass Shooting at Colo. Movie Theater, 12 People Dead
Posted: 7/20/2012 11:12:13 PM
lets talk about the swiss.shall we?
less guns.....yup...without question

percentage of households with a gun in them?.............oops..there the numbers are much more skewed...in favor of the swiss.......well over 60% of households have a gun in them.....AND a minimum of 200 rounds of ammo........PLUS 7 fully loaded magizines

why?........because well over 60% of swiss households are required to.being they are either military or militia

why are there less gun committed murders there?.......cause the criminals know dang well that someone..or several someones within earshot have got said gun handy are are willing to defend their home/neighborhoods

another interesting fact about the swiss that those who use the swiss to argue against guns is that in switzerland....the ENTIRE country....aside from the royal palace and paraliment.........there isnt a single
gun free" zone......no cities with gun laws so severe that even a police officer has an extremrely tough time to own a sporting fire arm.....matter of fact..ALL towns there are required by law to have a gun range

lets also not forget.....commit a crime there with a gun.........you never.NEVER see the light of day again as a free man......

so..you want america to be more like the swiss?.......BRING IT ON!
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 84
Mass Shooting at Colo. Movie Theater, 12 People Dead
Posted: 7/20/2012 11:52:50 PM
so..you want america to be more like the swiss?.......BRING IT ON!

Are you SURE you want that...? Read through what follows and get back to me...

percentage of households with a gun in them?.............oops..there the numbers are much more skewed...in favor of the swiss.......well over 60% of households have a gun in them.....AND a minimum of 200 rounds of ammo........PLUS 7 fully loaded magizines

This is nonsense... Here are the laws around what you wrongly suggest...

Up until October 2007, a specified personal retention quantity of government-issued personal ammunition (50 rounds 5.56 mm / 48 rounds 9mm) was issued as well, which was sealed and inspected regularly to ensure that no unauthorized use had taken place.[4] The ammunition was intended for use while traveling to the army barracks in case of invasion.

In October 2007, the Swiss Federal Council decided that the distribution of ammunition to soldiers shall stop and that all previously issued ammo shall be returned. By March 2011, more than 99% of the ammo has been received. Only special rapid deployment units and the military police still have ammunition stored at home today.

The Swiss Army maintains tight adherence to high standards of lawful military conduct. In 2005, for example, when the Swiss prosecuted recruits who had reenacted the torture scenes of Abu Ghraib, one of the charges was improper use of service weapons.

To carry firearms in public or outdoors (and for an individual who is a member of the militia carrying a firearm other than his Army-issue personal weapons off-duty), a person must have a Waffentragschein (gun carrying permit), which in most cases is issued only to private citizens working in occupations such as security.

There are three conditions:

* fulfilling the conditions for buying a permit (see section below)
* stating plausibly the need to carry firearms to protect oneself, other people, or real property from a specified danger
* passing an examination proving both weapon handling skills and knowledge regarding lawful use of the weapon

Guns may be transported in public as long as an appropriate justification is present. This means to transport a gun in public, the following requirements apply:

* The ammunition must be separated from the gun, no ammunition in a magazine.
* The transport has to be direct, i.e.:
o For courses or exercises hosted by marksmanship, hunting or military organisations,
o To an army warehouse and back,
o To and from a holder of a valid arms trade permit,
o To and from a specific event, i.e. gun shows.

You still want to be like the Swiss...? I could agree to that if you still do...

why are there less gun committed murders there?.......cause the criminals know dang well that someone..or several someones within earshot have got said gun handy are are willing to defend their home/neighborhoods

Now that too is utter nonsense... How fearful would you be if you knew that the gun could not be loaded except in time of war...? How fearful would you be knowing that the ammo is sealed and the owner is subject to prosecution for using the gun outside of times of war or military practice...? How fearful would you be knowing that all that ammo had been ordered turned in...?

Do you still want to be like the Swiss...? I can agree to that because it is basically the same rules as here in Canada...
 SteelCity1981
Joined: 8/16/2005
Msg: 85
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Mass Shooting at Colo. Movie Theater, 12 People Dead
Posted: 7/21/2012 1:39:04 AM
I doubt very much that North Korea who has ZERO ability to export anything to this country..is a major supplier here!


Not hard to find.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-09-28/north-korea-smuggling-weapons-components-selling-arms-abroad-cohen-says.html


So you don't believe that corrupt gov't officials, up and down the "chain of command" from high functionaries to beat cops, that take kick backs and pay-offs from drug lords and other organized criminals are criminal...?


Who are they then.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 86
Mass Shooting at Colo. Movie Theater, 12 People Dead
Posted: 7/21/2012 2:38:28 AM

Not hard to find.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-09-28/north-korea-smuggling-weapons-components-selling-arms-abroad-cohen-says.html

You know what...? That doesn't say ONE SINGLE word about N. Korea smuggling arms to the US as you asserted... Neither does this one (much more authoritative than Bloomberg)...

http://www.isn.ethz.ch/isn/Security-Watch/Articles/Detail/?lng=en&id=111132


So you don't believe that corrupt gov't officials, up and down the "chain of command" from high functionaries to beat cops, that take kick backs and pay-offs from drug lords and other organized criminals are criminal...?



Who are they then.

Now you're just making assinine demands because your points keep getting shot down... You really expect anyone to identify individual beat cops to gov't functionaries by name in Colombia and Mexico because you can't win any other points...?

I'll tell you what, I'll go this far on that utterly ludicrous demand...

http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/hrrpt/2011/wha/186502.htm

http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/hrrpt/2011/wha/186528.htm

http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/docid/4f9e7f652.html

http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/type,COUNTRYREP,IRBC,,46d2ed512,0.html

If the most recent State Dept. or UNHCR reports on corruption in Colombia and Mexico aren't good enough for you then feel free to make yourself look ridiculous...

Now... do you have any answer to the Cato lies I demonstrated for you...?
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 87
Mass Shooting at Colo. Movie Theater, 12 People Dead
Posted: 7/21/2012 2:55:25 AM
NEWSFLASH!!...the Colorado shooter did'nt really do it....somebody did it for him!!

You know what... you're right (sort of)... It was the penis-envy of the gun-clinging NRA/Repub-teabagger whackjobs that made it all possible...
 dimitri24
Joined: 12/9/2008
Msg: 88
Mass Shooting at Colo. Movie Theater, 12 People Dead
Posted: 7/21/2012 3:51:37 AM
gun control wouldn't help this it might even make it worse. when you control firearms only the criminals have them! not to mention that the type of person who does this could just as easily use a cross bow! or with enough practice a compound bow. or a home made bomb built with information you can find in any library and household supplies.

notice this stuff never happens in texas or louisiana where everyone carries? wonder why that is?

but the truth is world wide there is no correlation between guns and gun violence. and i don't know of any political party association between these violent acts. the countries with the biggest gun cultures range from the safest like finland and sweden to the most dangerous like yemen and strict gun control doesn't take the guns out of the hands of people in the violent countries, at least not the violent people.

owning firearms isn't only a constitutional right and a great hobby but firearm laws have no correlation to gun crimes. so unless the man was motivated to murdered all these people in protest to gun control and did it with legally bought guns and tear gas keep your ill formed political opinions out of it. it's a tragedy caused by a sick mind.
 dimitri24
Joined: 12/9/2008
Msg: 89
Mass Shooting at Colo. Movie Theater, 12 People Dead
Posted: 7/21/2012 5:38:16 AM
just read back a bit. and ya know what i do agree with joe. the us should have state militias!

but his numbers are all skewed. first off correlation is not cause and effect in the case of gun violence in the us and sweden. and that is proved by that fact that it is not a universal correlation, you can't just say it's cause/effect between two counties if it's not proven in other countries as well. it's a bad argument! the cultures are too different.

large numbers of guns in the us are because we love guns! it's a hobby, it's a craft. the numbers are so high because a few americans own a very large number of guns. sweden has more people with guns. the truth is not that many american households have guns. and many that do don't teach there children about guns. if the number of people with guns was a correlation to the number of gun crimes the argument would hold more weight but it's actually the opposite, i mean it's not like the gun colletors are lending the guns to criminals for the sake of shooting people in the us.

we can't just look at law making with fears and emotions on subjects. there needs to be facts but the facts need interpretation. we need to know what's relevant. you can't bring up a statisitic that shows a correlation then you yourself talk about how different the countries actually are in what they do with guns. it breaks down the statistic every bit as much as it breaks down the contrary argument. but the households with guns argument is actually a good one even if the guns aren't loaded.

the real truth is not that gun violence is low in sweden and finland because the have a lot of guns, or that the guns aren't loaded, neither is relevant. it's the culture. it's because they grow up with, respect, and fear guns, but that culture depends on more households with guns. it can only happen on such a broad scale if more housholds have guns and the guns have a purpose! all the childeren see guns and half know they will carry one some day and learn how to use them. in america it's the gun toting nra nutjobs that joe talks about that do the same. they don't promote violence, they promote gun safety. it's not the people that make up the large statistic that are shooting people it's a few have-nothings that want everything and the have-everythings that make money off the have-nothings.

also a state militia program could only happen through those nutjob nra types that joe talks about. so i don't really know what side he's taking in all of this.

we are looking at an atypical event and trying to apply universal logic to it with irrelevant arguments to try to understand why it happened. this event has nothing to do with a gun control argument or a border control argument. it's not common in the scheme of all gun crime. it's just more tragic and more visable. it's sad that the gun topic is ruling this thread. it shouldn't be here. it does nothing for the people that died.
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 90
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Mass Shooting at Colo. Movie Theater, 12 People Dead
Posted: 7/21/2012 6:04:13 AM
The US has the highest rate of gun ownership in the world as well as it's citizens being the most psychologically medicated in the world, and 2nd only to France in depression. States with the highest gun ownership and most lax gun laws, have the highest gun violence rates. Put all that together and you have a 15% chance of being a victim of random violence by a stranger, and far more likely to be shot by family, friends and acquaintences.
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/relationship.cfm

In Louisiana 3rd in the rate of gun ownership, you are 6 times more likely to be shot than in Hawaii, the state with the lowest gun ownership rates.
http://www.vpc.org/press/1110gundeath.htm
 Kings_Knight
Joined: 1/20/2009
Msg: 91
Mass Shooting at Colo. Movie Theater, 12 People Dead
Posted: 7/21/2012 6:46:17 AM
@ Nr 112 ...

You anti-gun types tend to be extremely unwilling to accept the fact that the RIGHT to keep and bear arms is a Constitutionally-protected right. You also volitionally refuse to accept the reality that an armed society is a polite society.

As for the ( ahem ) 'merits' of your ( ahem ) 'argument' that " ... States with the highest gun ownership and most lax gun laws, have the highest gun violence rates. ... " is false on its face. You simply can't support it without horribly mangling the facts generated by objective, measurable reality. That said, your imagined fears are not enough for me to unilaterally disarm. If you choose to be unarmed, fine; don't come looking for those of us who chose to arm themselves when it gets down to the nut-cuttin', okay ...

As for the ( ahem ) 'effectiveness' of 'gun control' (which, btw, has as its eventual goal the confiscation of privately-owned weapons), the cases of Morton Grove, IL and Kennesaw, GA are instructive - well, at least to those of us with common sense enough to understand the evidence in plain sight for all to see.

Morton Grove, IL, the first municipality to ban private ownership of handguns, enacted one of the most stringent gun bans in the US. After its ban was put in place, violent crime by armed perps escalated against its then-unarmed and defenseless citizenry. Morton Grove rescinded its gun ban only after SCOTUS ruled 5 - 4 in 'D.C. v Heller', a case brought because of the Washington, DC ban on private possession of handguns.

The direct opposite of Morton Grove, IL is Kennesaw, GA. In Kennesaw, the law requires that all law-abiding citizens own a firearm and know how to use it. The only exception granted is when ownership of a weapon conflicts with someone's religious beliefs. Kennesaw, GA is, as a result, a community with virtually no crime.

Tell ya what: When you establish your wonderful little 'gun-free zone' of a city and make firearms possession a crime, forget that there are people in other locales with not only common sense, but with weapons ... remember also that, when seconds count, the cops are only minutes away.
 jeep1127girl
Joined: 12/31/2009
Msg: 92
Mass Shooting at Colo. Movie Theater, 12 People Dead
Posted: 7/21/2012 7:15:16 AM
I am from Colorado...and we are all grieving over here...please send your prayers to us...it is a very difficult time for us here, We are strong here and we will come together and support each other thru this...but we do need help..we need all the prayers we can get..thanks everyone.
Me, Lita
 Earthpuppy
Joined: 2/9/2008
Msg: 93
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Mass Shooting at Colo. Movie Theater, 12 People Dead
Posted: 7/21/2012 8:05:47 AM
KK. You "happiness is a warm gun" types seem to always respond that more guns will equal less killing despite all the stats to the contrary. You also mistakenly believe that people who talk about the downside of rampant gun ownership are by token anti-gun types.

I was raised in a gun culture, started hunting with a 22 at age 7, first shotgun at age 12, kept a deer rifle in the car at school, killed people with a big 5/54 gun, still armed, but know that statistically, the more guns put into the wrong hands, or available in moments of passion will equate to more gun deaths per capita. I learned early on via a cousin who almost shot another cousin playing around with an "unloaded" gun, and when Littlejohn shot Frank in the butt with a shotgun accidentally, while scooting into the truck during deer hunting, that guns are accidents waiting to happen. In May of this year there was yet another tragedy of a 3 year old girl finding her dad's 45 and shooting herself in the head while playing with it with her 2 year old cousin. Even though the gun was owned by a State Highway Patrol officer, someone who should really know gun safety and protocol for keeping a house child safe, these tragedies continue to happen. A bud's cousin just shot himself in the thigh not long ago, cleaning his "empty" gun while drinking. He missed his groin and femoral artery and lived.

There is responsible ownership and training, and then there are the other 90% of guns out there. I can't tell you how many times bullets have zipped through the trees nearby from drunken target practice idiots unaware of their surroundings. I got hit in the neck with a couple of pellets from idiot neighbor kids shooting birds from their porch less than a quarter mile away. I made it a point to run across the field unarmed to ensure that in my fit of passion, they would not end up being shot.

Tennessee is one of those states unable to address economic issues, instead this year focused on bills to promote guns in parks, schools, in bars, and at the work place. VW, one of the largest manufacturers here ended up leading other businesses in opposing that infringement on their right to a safe workplace for all employees, and their property rights.
http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2012/mar/06/gun-bills-draw-opposition-volkswagen-tennessee-sen/

While we are waiting to sort out what happened to the Presbyterrorist in Aurora, we should be seeking ways to help minimize gun idiocy in our culture. Current trends in owership and killing do not bode well and enabling drunks, and idiots with yet more guns isn't the answer.

Jeep...our thoughts are with you in your grief.
 mungojoe
Joined: 11/15/2006
Msg: 94
Mass Shooting at Colo. Movie Theater, 12 People Dead
Posted: 7/21/2012 8:06:54 AM
but his numbers are all skewed. first off correlation is not cause and effect in the case of gun violence in the us and sweden. and that is proved by that fact that it is not a universal correlation, you can't just say it's cause/effect between two counties if it's not proven in other countries as well. it's a bad argument! the cultures are too different.

I agree with you about the correlation/cause relationship... So, let's just test that to see if it holds up when we expand the data set...

I've collated gun ownership rates and gun crime rates for the following countries:

United States, Switzerland, Finland, Sweden, Norway, France, Canada, Austria, Germany, New Zealand, Australia, Belgium, Denmark, England/Wales, Scotland

I chose these countries because a) they are all commonly considered to be "modern western democracies", b) their populations tend to be quite ethnically similar due to historical immigration patterns, c) they have very similar "corruption indices" (a measure of their general lawfulness) and d) they have, to varying degrees, common, shared heritages (the Nordic/European countries being, generally, the ancestral origin countries of the non-European countries and the various migrations within Europe)...

I ordered them according to the rate of gun ownership as seen above... Rates of gun ownership very tightly mirror the restrictiveness of the gun laws (but that also makes sense, the harder it is to own a gun, the lower the rate of gun ownership)... They also very tightly mirror the attitudes towards gun ownership (gun culture v non-gun culture) as can be seen in the top ranks (US, Switzerland, Finland, Sweden at the top)...

I took the gun ownership rates (as shown above this very tightly mirrors restrictiveness AND attitudes towards gun ownership):

Gun ownership rates in above order (US to Scotland):
88.8, 45.7, 32.0, 31.6, 31.3, 31.2, 30.8, 30.4, 30.3, 22.6, 15.0, 17.2, 12.0, 6.2, 5.5

with the rates of gun violence (US to Scotland):
10.27, 6.4, 6.86, 2.36, 4.39, 6.35, 4.78, 4.56, 1.57, 2.66, 2.94, 3.48, 2.6, 0.46, 0.58

You may notice that the rates of gun crimes are not nearly as neatly ordered as their rates of gun ownership...

I then calculated the correlation coefficient of the two data sets... These are the results:

Mean gun ownership = 28.71
Mean gun crime = 4.02
Standard Deviation (ownership) = 20.0423
Standard Deviation (gun crime) = 2.6433
Correlation Coefficient (r value)= 0.8615

The r value of 0.8615 is HIGHLY correlated... what that means is, 86.15% of the variation in gun crime can be attributed to the variation in gun ownership (and, as shown above this is tightly linked to restrictiveness of gun laws AND attitudes towards gun ownership)... In short, the more gun ownership you have, the more gun crime you have...

Now, that is NOT just comparing a couple of nations which may or may not be similar in a number of ways... These are countries with closely tied histories through population migration patterns, closely related gov't's (all considered modern western democracies), and more than just a little ethnic similarity...
 dimitri24
Joined: 12/9/2008
Msg: 95
Mass Shooting at Colo. Movie Theater, 12 People Dead
Posted: 7/21/2012 8:35:20 AM
The US has the highest rate of gun ownership in the world as well as it's citizens being the most psychologically medicated in the world, and 2nd only to France in depression. States with the highest gun ownership and most lax gun laws, have the highest gun violence rates. Put all that together and you have a 15% chance of being a victim of random violence by a stranger, and far more likely to be shot by family, friends and acquaintences.
http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/relationship.cfm

In Louisiana 3rd in the rate of gun ownership, you are 6 times more likely to be shot than in Hawaii, the state with the lowest gun ownership rates.
http://www.vpc.org/press/1110gundeath.htm


that's actually compelling data. the alaska and hawaii data could probably be dropped based on rates of depression likely being so far apart, i have to wonder what the suicide rates are in those states, not to mention depression could be related to other gun violence. but it would be nice to see a full chart of the country. and maybe overlay it with depression cases. it is interesting that they cut it off at 5 and 5. where does texas fall into that? i think florida is fairly lax as well. also notice how new york is significantly higher in ownership but actually has still reasonably low violence compared to other bottom 5. i would also like to see poverty rates in some of these places. seems except for hawaii the bottom 5 are all low poverty states.

i'm not arguing against the data but i want to know what the real underlying correlation is. if it's as simple as gun distribution but finland has as many gun owning people as the highest and most violent states does that say americans are just really ****ed up individuals?

no matter what i don't think too much gun control will solve the problem now. it will just leave guns in the hands of criminals. but clearly america has a problem that doesn't exist in some other first world gun toting countries.
 robin-hood
Joined: 12/2/2008
Msg: 96
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History
Mass Shooting at Colo. Movie Theater, 12 People Dead
Posted: 7/21/2012 8:37:27 AM
Jeep Girl,

Thanks for that post. Whether by accident, negligence, or on purpose such tragedies bring grief to those it closely affects. To all the rest a platform to babble from.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 97
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History
Mass Shooting at Colo. Movie Theater, 12 People Dead
Posted: 7/21/2012 8:44:45 AM

So yeah, we got the 2nd amendment. And it's about damn time we had an adult, intelligent conversation about what that thing means here in the 21st century.


That adult, intelligent conversation has already taken place. The Supreme Court had it twice now, first in Heller, and then in McDonald. And as far as I know, the justices didn't ask either time what you or anyone here thought about the Second Amendment. If you've read those decisions and think the Court got something wrong in one or both, you haven't said what that is. And you can't--your real beef is that the Second Amendment exists at all.


It's high time we took a look at it and modified it for this age, not almost 3 centuries back. It has to evolve.


And just how should that happen, O Progressive One? Are you going to lead the charge to repeal the Second Amendment? I doubt that--it's so much easier just to ignore it. But it doesn't sound so good to admit that's what you really want to do, so you dress it up by saying the 2d Am. should be "modified," or that it should "evolve." So-called liberals, even ones who claim to respect the law, in fact do not. Like their Pharaoh in the White House, they think the Constitution should mean not what its authors intended, but whatever they happen to feel it should mean at the moment.

There's a good reason why it's called the "Constitution of the United States," and not the "Suggested Guidelines for the Government of the United States." The only legitimate way to change it is to amend it. Otherwise, live with it.
 OyVay...
Joined: 7/15/2011
Msg: 98
Mass Shooting at Colo. Movie Theater, 12 People Dead
Posted: 7/21/2012 10:43:49 AM
"We are a nation virtually founded on the principle of "Help thy neighbor", yet we have become one of the most politically conservative, self absorbed, and materialistic societies in the history of humankind"

This kind of captures the spirit of that portion of society which I have come to abhor. All of the wonderful statements of the right in this thread, bears this out. The "I gotta a gun, if you don't like guns, when they come for you, don't look to me for help, you'll be shit out of luck"...show exactly the mindset this speaks of.

It marches lockstep, with statements about the OWS movement, that they smoked grass, were dirty and why didn't they get a job...when all they wanted was for someone to be held accountable for screwing up the financial system to make a buck.

The 'I've got mine, if you don't have yours(for whatever reason), the he11 with you', exemplifies the "self absorbed" nature of a segment of our society.

This incident is tragic in the extreme. A baby has died, the stories are beginning to pour in on the level of suffering of the victims. I'm sorry, we need to be more compassionate about our fellow human beings. That this segment is ONLY concerned with their guns, or their own lives..is proof, our society no longer functions on the principles on which our nation has been founded.
 want to travel
Joined: 7/29/2006
Msg: 99
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History
Mass Shooting at Colo. Movie Theater, 12 People Dead
Posted: 7/21/2012 10:59:22 AM
things like this go hand in hand with the RIGHT to have weapons
live with it
or change the constitution, and live in relative safety
americans cant have it both ways.....
 GreenThumbz18
Joined: 4/25/2012
Msg: 100
Mass Shooting at Colo. Movie Theater, 12 People Dead
Posted: 7/21/2012 11:15:45 AM
^^^^^^
Hey, If you don't like it, stay home, where you're "safe".
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