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 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 40
Islam: The Untold StoryPage 5 of 5    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)

This is what makes me laugh about diversity programs, in one breath they teach that we are all equal but yet they'll go on to promote various religions that completely contradict modern western values and tell us how we should "embrace" and "respect" all cultures and religions.

The people who have encouraged the spread of Islam and Mosques here, are at the top and the far right of our society.
Prince Charles and the Archbishop of Canterbury, and various Bishops have all been vociferous champions for the building of mosques. Prince Charles over-ruled a planning refusal for a huge mosque/islamic study center where I live in Oxford.
To be fair, it's a very pretty building, with turrets and minarets, all done in the same kind of stone that many of the older colleges had used. But it's really a 'phoney', a modern 'disneyesque' replica of a fantasy castle of some sort.
It would have made far more sense (IMO) to have made it from fiber-glass, like the "antique beams" in some newly-refurbished "theme pubs".

I think you have to be fair and reasonable, and as almost the same irrational beliefs have been embraced and encouraged by the 'establishment' here, we can't really refuse. Christianity came from the same origins, and there are thousands of churches. "Christianity" is also a middle-eastern imported religion.

I think that most "muslims", like most "christians", are reasonable people. In my experience, they are much more open to debate about their beliefs, than some christians I've spoken to, who seem to take offence easily and quickly.

The way to stop people believing in these primitive superstitions (IMO) is with rational debate. We now have no blasphemy laws, so it's perfectly valid to question and criticise some of the drivel which appears in all of their "sacred texts".
They are the beliefs of the bronze age.

I have no objections to people living "good lives" though, in fact I think that's an excellent idea.
Morality is not the monopoly of religions, it's perfectly possible to still have morals, and be an atheist.

By the way there are now Defence Leagues in muslim countries like Turkey. Google: "Turkish Defence League". This proves beyond doubt that the anti-Islamic extremist defence leagues are not racist or against Islam as such, but are purely against extremism.


The edl are "extremists"!
They also (rather laughably) embrace the "English religions", and (ironically) use the "Cross of St George" as their emblem. As I said above, all three "Abrahamic Faiths" have their origins in Jerusalem.

I don't feel that marches, and violent confrontation will achieve anything, except more violent confrontation.
If you "go after" people, they tend to close-ranks, and respond predictably, just as you or I would.

We can't criticise "islam", or any other religion, as long as we continue to endorse the same delusions amongst our own population.
That's why I am an "Equal Opportunities Religion-Mocker".

Eventually, as their numbers continue to decline, I prophecise that all three religions will amalgamate, into one huge religion, which embraces the beliefs of all three. CMJ Inc.
They will meet at enormous mega-store sized "Mosynnurches", where they will grow beards, and not eat bacon, together.
The more information we get, the sillier they look.
May his noodly appendage touch you.
 stonecastle
Joined: 2/14/2007
Msg: 51
view profile
History
Islam: The Untold Story
Posted: 9/15/2012 5:21:16 AM
There is a good documentary here about the history of Islam in Europe: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RWQxeF8eVc
It concentrates a lot on Islamic contributions to Europe's civilisation in the realms of science, medicine and culture.
 GGHH788
Joined: 2/22/2012
Msg: 52
view profile
History
Islam: The Untold Story
Posted: 9/15/2012 8:07:56 AM
I dislike organised religion , and this is coming from a muslim!
 stonecastle
Joined: 2/14/2007
Msg: 54
view profile
History
Islam: The Untold Story
Posted: 9/17/2012 5:23:44 AM

If Karl Marx only knew how cruel the system inspired by him would be .Are you implying that the gulags in Stanlinist Russia were the best humanity could do ?
What about Mao's China ,was that also Utopia ?
Do I have to mention the current North Korean regime ?

Karl Marx envigished a system of society democratically run by the workers with accountable officials and elected workers councils. And an economic system based on production for need not profit! How does that resemble the regimes of so called communist countries like North Korea? The supportors of capitalism want us to beleive that there is no alternative to wage slave capitalism so they keep repeating the lie that countries like Stalinist Russia were socialist when in reality all their shared with socialism was a planned economy.
 stonecastle
Joined: 2/14/2007
Msg: 56
view profile
History
Islam: The Untold Story
Posted: 9/17/2012 8:44:31 AM
Stonecastle,are you saying Marxist regimes are not inspired by the works of Karl Marx ?

Apart from a planned economy what other policies recommended by Karl Marx in his book the communist manifesto have the regimes of North Korea and the former Soviet Union ever implemented? You should have a look at a British based socialist party and see how different it is from the ideology of those regimes: http://www.socialistworker.co.uk
 ObjectStupidity
Joined: 8/12/2010
Msg: 62
Islam: The Untold Story
Posted: 9/22/2012 4:22:29 PM
Having seen first hand what folk will do in the name of religion then it follows i have a healthy suspicion of ALL religions.....
 lovableladywanted
Joined: 5/14/2006
Msg: 67
Islam: The Untold Story
Posted: 9/25/2012 2:41:31 PM
You have bad and good people in any demographic. I judge each person as an individual not as their complete demographic , whatever that demo is.
 normaldude
Joined: 3/8/2006
Msg: 70
view profile
History
Islam: The Untold Story
Posted: 11/4/2012 3:53:41 PM
But it seems Islam is the most violent and extreme and is always in the news with shocking stories of how the followers are prepared to do anything to strangers and even loved ones to advance this brand of religion...
this child died because somehow the religion is so controlling that the parent feels justified or correct to do this? We have had cases in Canada lately where parents killed ALL their kids because they wouldnt "submit"to the religion and you wonder why people think muslims are nuts?
"Mother murdered son for 'failing to learn the Koran' The Telegraph
A mother murdered her young son and set his body on fire when he struggled to learn the Koran off by heart, a court has heard. Sara Ege used a stick to beat seven-year-old Yaseen “like a dog” if he couldn’t recite passages from the Islamic text.
The beatings were so brutal that the boy died from his injuries, and his mother tried to burn the body to destroy the evidence, Cardiff Crown Court was told.
In a video recording of her interview with police, Mrs Ege told them: “I was trying to teach him the Koran.

“I was getting more and more frustrated. If he didn’t read it properly I would be very angry — I would hit him.
The court heard Mrs Ege, 32, a university graduate, and her husband, Yousuf, had enrolled Yaseen in advanced classes at their local mosque.
They wanted him to become a hafiz — an Islamic term for someone who memorises the Koran.
She also hit him with a hammer, a rolling pin and a slipper, as well as repeatedly punching him, the court heard."
 vlad dracul
Joined: 4/30/2009
Msg: 71
view profile
History
Islam: The Untold Story
Posted: 2/3/2018 4:36:58 AM
Sitting having a cup of bruce lee and i got to thinking about how a certain poster loves to call everyone who disagrees with him as being islamophobic.

Then i minded reading this below. The geezer has the EXACT same views as the poster yet he is not a coward when it comes to islam..........



“Islamophobia: A word created by fascists and used by cowards to manipulate morons.”


Islamophobia”: an absurd term Phobias By LSS member

Jay Marshall Islam: A monotheistic and Abrahamic religion articulated by the Qur’an and considered by many of its adherents to be the verbatim word of Allah; it is also comprised of prophetic traditions (or Hadith) of Muhammad (c. 570–8 June 632 CE), considered by most Muslims to be the last prophet of God.

Phobia: An extremely irrational fear or dislike of something.

I lay out these definitions for my reader so that they may understand the surrounding context of what I will now attempt to articulate.

The term Islamophobia is one which has really shaken up society. Islamophobia is a term which has sought, perhaps, to describe people who are hateful towards Muslims as people yet it has unfortunately come to describe those who are merely critical of the Islamic faith, or who openly refuse to adopt Islamic principles.

The questions I would ask my kind reader are as follows:

Is Islamophobia a useful term? Is it racist to criticise Islam?

An inaccurate word. Have you ever heard of Christianophobia, or Hindiphobia, or Atheistophobia?
Of course you haven’t.

Based on the definitions I have given above, I would have thought it quite obvious that we therefore need to ask ourselves if the term Islamophobia is really necessary at all.

Not only as an atheist, but also as a critic of all religions, it is fair to say I am fairly critical of Islam, and that I have personally concluded that as a way of living Islam is rather awful.

Does this make me “Islamophobic”?

Why?

Because a phobia is a fear or dislike based on irrationality.

My dislike of Islam, as a set of ideas, comes from the rational decisions and judgments I have made after understanding Islam itself, and this dislike of mine is
not groundless or illusory.

An unnecessary word One of the most toxic absurdities this word has produced is that it has conflated criticism of a religion with racism, and this conflation has been made especially by far-left political groups.

One of the freedoms of a democratic society is the freedom of speech and expression, which most certainly includes the freedom to criticise religion.
That some people may find this criticism offensive or insulting is an irrelevance.

If this stupid word Islamophobia is accepted, it automatically closes the door to critical thinking towards Islam as a religion.

A dangerous word. For there are groups of people, both political and religious, who have said that Charlie Hebdo deserved the attacks or that free speech should stop at religion.

The only solidarity such groups profess seems to be with the attackers. It is partly thanks to the term Islamophobia that so many people have found themselves on the wrong side of such a crucial yet straightforward moral issue as the murder of cartoonists for drawing cartoons.

Consequently, people are running scared from people who physically attack those who criticise religion. If this example is to be followed, does it now mean that everyone’s religious belief is subject to the same immunity?

I should hope that never happens. The freedoms of inquiry, philosophy and expression demand the ability to critique religion – all religions.

If there is something we need to change or to reconsider, it is this abhorrent term Islamophobia.

It is not racist to challenge a set of ideas. So let’s remove this word Islamophobia from our vocabularies.

But I’ll give the last word to a tweeter called Andrew Cummins (@VodkaNinja), who defined Islamophobia rather succinctly in the following terms:
“Islamophobia: A word created by fascists and used by cowards to manipulate morons.”

https://lawyerssecularsociety.wordpress.com/2015/03/03/islamophobia-an-absurd-term/

How nice to read a TRUE athiests views as compared to the cowardly types of athiest.
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 72
Islam: The Untold Story
Posted: 2/3/2018 6:28:33 AM

How nice to read a TRUE athiests views as compared to the cowardly types of athiest


^^^Spoken like a "true Scotsman".

No true Scotsman is a kind of informal fallacy in which one attempts to protect a universal generalization from counterexamples by changing the definition in an ad hoc fashion to exclude the counterexample.[1][2] Rather than denying the counterexample or rejecting the original claim, this fallacy modifies the subject of the assertion to exclude the specific case or others like it by rhetoric, without reference to any specific objective rule ("no true Scotsman would do such a thing"; i.e., those who perform that action are not part of our group and thus criticism of that action is not criticism of the group).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
HTH
 vlad dracul
Joined: 4/30/2009
Msg: 73
view profile
History
Islam: The Untold Story
Posted: 2/3/2018 7:03:12 AM
You know something? You are a fvckin hypocrite. One of the worst ones on here..........


"The left has an Islam problem: If liberals won’t come to terms with religious extremism, the xenophobic right will carry the day.
It’s becoming increasingly difficult to talk honestly about Islam. For liberals in particular, it’s a kind of heresy to suggest that Islam, at this particular moment in history, has a problem.

This is unfortunate, and it has to end.

http://www.salon.com/2015/11/17/the_left_has_an_islam_problem_if_liberals_wont_come_to_terms_with_religious_extremism_the_xenophobic_right_will_carry_the_day/


And peter tatchell describes you to a t...........


"Some liberals and left-wingers mute their condemnation of intolerance when it becomes awkward. The new vogue for sections of the left is the idea that we have to 'understand' bigots from racial and religious minorities; yet few of them ever urge the same 'understanding' of white working class bigots.

Paralysed by the fear of being branded racist, imperialist or Islamophobic, large sections of liberal and left opinion have, in effect, gone soft on their commitment to universal human rights.

They readily, and rightly, condemn the excesses of US and UK government policy, but rarely speak out against oppressors who are non-white or adherents of minority faiths.

Why the double standard?

The answer lies, in part, in a perverse interpretation of multiculturalism that has sundered the celebration of difference from universal human rights.

The new hierarchy of oppression The rights of women and gay people are often deemed expendable for the sake of 'the greater good.'

Misogyny and homophobia are increasingly tolerated in the name of 'maintaining harmonious community relations.'

Indeed, the trend among many supposedly progressive people is to reject common standards of rights and responsibilities. They demand that we 'make allowances' and show 'cultural sensitivity' with regard to the prejudices of people within certain ethnic and faith communities.

Some liberals and left-wingers mute their condemnation of intolerance when it becomes awkward. The new vogue for sections of the left is the idea that we have to 'understand' bigots from racial and religious minorities; yet few of them ever urge the same 'understanding' of white working class bigots.

http://www.petertatchell.net/multiculturalism/democratiya8.htm

Re your true scotsman waffle. You are a true daftie. No disputing that
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 74
Islam: The Untold Story
Posted: 2/3/2018 8:01:24 AM

You know something? You are a fvckin hypocrite. One of the worst ones on here..........


"The left has an Islam problem: If liberals won’t come to terms with religious extremism, the xenophobic right will carry the day.
It’s becoming increasingly difficult to talk honestly about Islam. For liberals in particular, it’s a kind of heresy to suggest that Islam, at this particular moment in history, has a problem.

This is unfortunate, and it has to end.

http://www.salon.com/2015/11/17/the_left_has_an_islam_problem_if_liberals_wont_come_to_terms_with_religious_extremism_the_xenophobic_right_will_carry_the_day/


And peter tatchell describes you to a t...........


"Some liberals and left-wingers mute their condemnation of intolerance when it becomes awkward. The new vogue for sections of the left is the idea that we have to 'understand' bigots from racial and religious minorities; yet few of them ever urge the same 'understanding' of white working class bigots.

Paralysed by the fear of being branded racist, imperialist or Islamophobic, large sections of liberal and left opinion have, in effect, gone soft on their commitment to universal human rights.

They readily, and rightly, condemn the excesses of US and UK government policy, but rarely speak out against oppressors who are non-white or adherents of minority faiths.

Why the double standard?

The answer lies, in part, in a perverse interpretation of multiculturalism that has sundered the celebration of difference from universal human rights.

The new hierarchy of oppression The rights of women and gay people are often deemed expendable for the sake of 'the greater good.'

Misogyny and homophobia are increasingly tolerated in the name of 'maintaining harmonious community relations.'

Misogyny and homophobia and general opposition to "the rights of women and gay people" come from religion.
Not just one religion, but ALL of them.
Religious people tend to be "conservatives" and value "old values", as espoused in various religions.
Opposition to gay marriage came from religious "christian" conservatives, and "lord" mandelson should have told peter about all the "bishops" in the "upper chamber", who pass our laws.

It's also right-wing, religious conservatives who oppose abortion, stem-cell research, transplants, and many other medical advances, because they go against their primitive, superstitious "beliefs" from (literally) the Stone Age.

I don't "have a problem with islam", nor any "double standards", they're all equally deluded, in fact they're all very similar, as they're all based on "the Old Testament", a book of hilarious folk myths, which people have somehow persuaded themselves to be factual.
That's where all the "stoning" women to death, if they've been raped, comes from.

The only "double standards" I can see are the people who think "our" version of another middle-eastern religion is fine, when it believes in exactly the same shit.
And the greatest advocates for the "spread of islam" here, and the "champions" of all the campaigns to get more "mosques" built??
A:= The "christian" church, and all its many rapey priests and bishops.

The "christian churches" seem to be FULL of rapey old men, but peter thinks I've got a "problem" and should focus more on "islam"?
I don't "make any allowances",
The people telling us to "embrace islam" are other religions.
Not atheists.
(Well, not this one anyway)

-That's it.
That's my "5-a-day" used up.
-No, not fruit. Posts.
So if you wish to insult me further, you'll have to wait 'til tomorrow for my reply.
Latersss
 vlad dracul
Joined: 4/30/2009
Msg: 75
view profile
History
Islam: The Untold Story
Posted: 2/3/2018 9:04:44 AM
And once again you miss the point completely. Tatchell is talking about cowards like you who brand others islamophobes whilst ignoring the problems in islam.

We know about the abuse carried out by churches. It is rightly condemned. But IT WAS NOT covered up by politicians, social services and the polis. You are an example of that hypocrisy.........


"How can today's generation of English people be held responsible for what their forebears did 200 years ago in the days of Empire?

Such infantilising nonsense is increasingly a feature of left-wing discourse.

These double standards on human rights influence even law enforcement.

As we all know, no gay person could get away with urging the killing of 'n*ggers.'

Likewise, certain fundamentalist Muslim clerics are permitted to endorse the so-called 'honour' killing of unchaste women; whereas any woman who dared advocate violent retribution against Islamist misogynists would soon find herself in court.

We have long been used to the hypocrisy of the political right.

What is new is that this selective approach to human rights is now being echoed by sections of the left.

The reactionary left condemns torture by US forces in Iraq but ignores the widespread use of torture by the regime in neighbouring Iran.

Closer to home, the race hate of the neo-nazi British National Party provokes left-wing outrage, whereas hatred of Hindus and attempted forced conversions promoted by some Islamist groups is a non-issue for much of the left.

Multiculturalism is cited as a justification for tolerating beliefs and behaviours that conflict with universal human rights.

A good example of this is the veiling of girl children in many Islamic societies - and the attempt by some Islamists to import this sexist oppression into Britain.

We are not talking about the free choice of independent adult women to wear or not wear the hijab, burka or niqab. Girl children have no genuine freedom to choose because they are young and powerless.

Another multiculturalist error has been to bow to demands for 'cultural sensitivity'; permitting some communities to be exempt from the norms of universal human rights when it comes to issues like forced marriages and gay adoption.

The liberal-left used to oppose all oppression .

Nevertheless, in the name of multiculturalism, many otherwise progressive people indulge bigoted racial and religious minorities on the grounds that this bigotry is part of their ethnic and spiritual tradition.

In some quarters, it seems, tradition is now an excuse and analibi for human rights abuses.

The Left goes missing The political somersaults and ethical acrobatics of sections of liberal and left opinion are equally astonishing on the issue of Islamic fundamentalism.

While all Muslims should be defended against prejudice and discrimination, Muslims who oppress others should be challenged (in the same way that oppressor Christians, Judaists, atheists and others should also be challenged).

I have been accused of 'Islamophobia' for defending the Muslim victims of fundamentalism.

Allegations of 'Islamophobia' and 'racism' are increasingly manufactured and manipulated to stop debate, silence critics and discredit opponents.

When I, and others, dared condemn Qaradawi's support for suicide bombing and female genital mutilation, we were denounced as 'Islamophobes.'

In Britain, we hear no left-wing outcry against the homophobia of the Muslim Council of Britain, the Islamic Human Rights Commission and the Muslim Association of Britain.

http://www.petertatchell.net/multiculturalism/democratiya8.htm

And ALL the above could well be written about you.
 Strider886
Joined: 3/28/2006
Msg: 76
view profile
History
Islam: The Untold Story
Posted: 2/4/2018 2:49:08 AM
Little point in arguing this, you won't get anyone to share real thoughts an opinions on this......

The govt, the media, everyone has painted this into a class war, the right are painted out as lower class football hooligans, the left are painted as middle and upper middle class.
What annoys me is that anyone right of centre left, is considered far right.

Anyone aspiring to the later (which is just about everyone in every social class), will simply spout the same political rhetoric, because they can't be bothered to do any research and they fear being ostracised from the social class they pay so much money to feel a part of.

Notice that only people with a working class accent get accused of racism or being Islamophobic, take Douglas Murray for example, he says the same things that the likes of Tommy Robinson say, but nobody tries to shout over him or silence him with these one line put downs, why? because he doesn't have a working class accent........
 rekirked
Joined: 11/7/2017
Msg: 77
Islam: The Untold Story
Posted: 2/4/2018 3:13:41 AM
Any arguments one way or the other to do with religion or politics just end in trench warfare, it’s utterly pointless. You’re better off just worrying about your own little bubble and trying to make it a happy one.
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 78
Islam: The Untold Story
Posted: 2/4/2018 4:15:55 AM

And once again you miss the point completely. Tatchell is talking about cowards like you who brand others islamophobes whilst ignoring the problems in islam.

We know about the abuse carried out by churches. It is rightly condemned. But IT WAS NOT covered up by politicians, social services and the polis. You are an example of that hypocrisy.........


"How can today's generation of English people be held responsible for what their forebears did 200 years ago in the days of Empire?

Such infantilising nonsense is increasingly a feature of left-wing discourse.

These double standards on human rights influence even law enforcement.

As we all know, no gay person could get away with urging the killing of 'n*ggers.'

WTF ??!!
I can't think of any (other) gay people who would want to say that!!
Have you been giving peter some of your drugs?

As for me being "cowardly", actually, being an atheist opens you up to danger from ALL religions, not just one.
Atheists get murdered most, by "believers"

Tell me, what part of all religions are bullshit is me being "selective"?
-Or me "tolerating beliefs"?
Or me "indulging bigoted racial and religious minorities".

I'm not "the liberal left", and I'm not "the Labour Party", London, or otherwise.
I just vote for them, for reasons I've explained.
I'm only responsible for my own behaviour.

There's as much "homophobia" [sic] in "christian" religions, and patriarchy, and misogyny.
Religions want to drag us back to the beliefs of the Stone Age.

See my earlier posts (msg 56ish? and onwards)
We don't "need" religions.
If you (and your new "friend", peter ) want to "attack" somebody, don't attack me, an innocent atheist,
-attack "christianity", they are the ones saying "we should embrace islam", not me.
HTH
 et_non
Joined: 1/26/2018
Msg: 79
view profile
History
Islam: The Untold Story
Posted: 2/4/2018 7:48:38 AM
Emile Zola's La bete humaine is a good book. Should read it sometime.
People don't really control themselves, life is structured in such a way that the bad stuff doesn't come to the fore.
The gubbmint has bankrupted itself trying to pacify it's children, when the source of comfort begins to evaporate due to failing finances the beast will surface.
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