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Show ALL Forums  > Off Topic  > GM 'Recovery' a total fraud. Lawsuit pending.      Home login  
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 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 26
GM 'Recovery' a total fraud. Lawsuit pending.Page 2 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)
@Fuzzy


yeah but it just so happens to be the correct path to take.


Is it?
In the late 1980's during the 1988 Presidential elections; one of Reagan's allies (don't recall who it was) was being interviewed by the media and in the process he was trying to justify his reasons for another GOP victory (George Bush Sr--who ended up winning). When asked why Reaganomics (trickle down economics) had left out so many in the American fabric and benefited mostly the wealthy; in his response he stated that Reaganomics had improved the lives of many virtually all over the USA; and if there were still those who were not affected (translation:--> "living in a shit-hole") then they should seriously think about MOVING out to a better location! That was his response, and the likely response you may hear from Romney's camp (if he gets elected).


WE'RE BROKE. DOESN'T ANYONE UNDERSTAND THAT?


Do you understand what "broke" really means form a global standpoint. It means very differently than when an ordinary citizen is "broke". Right now, we have countries all over the world buying our debt; because they have more confidence in our ability to pay it back than you do (or MR does). Otherwise, would you loan out thousands of dollars to someone who you knew could NOT pay it back? I am not trivializing the size of the current debt, but much more is being made of it than there needs to be. This country has always had a sizable debt!


how deep in the hole do you have to be


I dunno; all I know is that the US is still giving Billions upon Billions of $ in foreign aid to countries who will never re-pay it! We are still giving grants to our citizens for what ever reasons; we are still paying Billions for the 2 wars we couldn't win! We are spending Billions with NASA on space exploration; and we still spending untold Billions on weaponry for national defense!


perhaps our country was a good experiment that started out great but in the end just petered out due so much money available we just gave it away to every tom, d!ck and harry out there. when it came time to reel in spending NO ONE WANTED TO MAKE THE SACRIFICE since we had all gotten use to the handouts.


Here is what the Average American has been used to:

1. To be able to purchase goods on credit and NOT have to worry about being in debt; regardless of the amount racked up.
2. To be able to get another job (with similar pay & benefits); should he/she lose (or quit) their present job and not have to travel too far.
3. To expect the economy to remain vibrant and thriving; with no long-standing economic down turns that would impact negatively in their wallets
4. To expect the Gov't to institute what ever quick fixes need to be done in order for them to keep on doing what is listed in the above points(1; 2; 3)
 OMG!WTF!
Joined: 12/3/2007
Msg: 27
view profile
History
GM 'Recovery' a total fraud. Lawsuit pending.
Posted: 9/8/2012 9:55:34 PM

Right now, we have countries all over the world buying our debt; because they have more confidence in our ability to pay it back than you do (or MR does)


That is likely one of the last reasons any country agrees to buy US debt.


Otherwise, would you loan out thousands of dollars to someone who you knew could NOT pay it back?


If the well being of my own economy depended on selling cheap crap to the broke country I'm lending money to, and if I had warehouses stocked full of that countries hundred dollar bills from decades of trade imbalances then yes, I absolutely would lend them money.


This country has always had a sizable debt!


Not this big. The only thing keeping the US up and running is weirdly low interest rates.
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 28
GM 'Recovery' a total fraud. Lawsuit pending.
Posted: 9/8/2012 10:45:15 PM

What about the 23 million people out of work right now. i mean where was their companies gov bailout to save their jobs....

It was given to the companies in form of tax credits and write-offs.

As many of those jobs where never lost, they where just moved elsewhere and the companies that did it, where able to do it without penalty or loss of revenue.

Also keep in mind that the money that those 23 million people would have earned it not lost either, as the owners found a way to keep more of it and at the same time pay little to no tax on it vie more loopholes and write-offs.

But making those companies pay a higher tax rate for doing so or anything of the such would just be big government being all nosey and such, so you can forget about helping those people because they clearly did not try hard enough and are just lazy for not being smart enough to be rich.


Which is why I find it all rather ironic and sad, as some people want someone like Romney to come in run the show.

Because bringing a guy in that wants to lower taxes on the rich even more, and create and pass more legislation that will make it easier for the companies to ship more jobs away, is pretty much border line retarded IMO.

The idea that making things even better for the ultra rich will in some way ease the suffering for the working class very much fails at logic.


I predict this will be the strategy in the debates as Obama will expose Romney for what he is, and that is nothing more than a lobbyist for the rich.


Though all that said:

GM books record annual profit; union workers due $7,000
Updated 2/16/2012 9:26 AM

Read more at: http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/earnings/story/2012-02-16/general-motors/53113520/1


So looks like the janitor cleaned up some of the mess, left by the last guy.
 SteelCity1981
Joined: 8/16/2005
Msg: 29
view profile
History
GM 'Recovery' a total fraud. Lawsuit pending.
Posted: 9/9/2012 12:44:08 AM
it was given to companies for tax write offs so companies that went under when people lost their jobs got a tax write off?

Many of those jobs weren't lost they were moved elsewhere... So 23 million people lost their jobs to over seas? There were many small buisnesses that went under as well. So it's not just about the big corp here.

They were lost when they couldn't provide an income for themselves or their familes.

You are acting like all these people lost their jobs from big corp when many of these jobs people worked for were also small businesses that went under due to a bad economy.

So big corp having to pay higher taxes which caused them to layoff people by scaling back on their forforce or move over seas to avoid big tax hikes helped those 23 million people out how again?

well latetst job report came out and well it's not looking good. Something has to change.

Yes because rasing taxes on big corp are not doing that already... You think big corp will stay here if they get taxed to death? 2 things will happen they will greatly reduce the size of their work force here or move over seas with countries with much lower tax rates. which will causeeven more people to lose their jobs here.

but taxing big corp to death will make people be able to find work when these big corp scale back on their work force of move over seas?

Yes this was someone that said back in 2009 that he will end lobbyist on capitol hill yet it's still going on under his admin as we speak. If obama did that he would look like a giant hypocritic.

Not all rosey as you think...





Forbes: GM headed for bankruptcy, again

Saturday, September 8. 2012

Louis Woodhill, writing in Forbes, predicts that GM is headed for another bankruptcy within the next four years, given current trends. While campaigning, President Obama has been touting his bailout of GM (with its unionized UAW workforce) as one of his accomplishments. Even the left-leaning Huffington Post acknowledges Obama’s claims about the auto bailouts are exaggerated, and the Huffington Post notes GM “still owes taxpayers a whopping $25 billion. Chrysler, for its part, has repaid most of its federal loans.”

The U.S. government owns 1/4 of the shares in GM – half a billion shares – and shares would need to be at $53/share for the government to break even on the bailout. GM shares closed at $23/share yesterday.

2013 Chevy Malibu redesign

Woodhill, writing in Forbes, uses the Chevy Malibu to illustrate the problems GM is having. The Malibu is in a critical market segment, the “D-segment”, which is the highest volume single vehicle class in the U.S. The Forbes article notes “it is difficult to imagine how GM could survive long term unless it can profitably develop, manufacture, and market a vehicle that can hold its own in the D-Segment”.

GM is working on a totally redesigned 2013 Chevy Malibu, and it will be competing with other cars in the same class that have also been totally redesigned like the Honda Accord and Toyota Camry.

With redesigns, the Forbes article notes “it had better be superior to the older models being offered by its competitors. If it is not, the company will spend the next five years (the usual time between major redesigns in this segment) losing market share and/or offering costly ‘incentives’ to ‘move the metal’. Uh-oh. At this point, it appears that the 2013 Malibu is not only inferior to the 2012 Volkswagen Passat, it’s not even as good as the car it replaces, the 2012 Chevy Malibu.”

The article also talks about the failure of even the 2013 Malibu Eco, with a “mild hybrid powertrain.” “The Malibu Eco (25 MPG City/37 MPG Hwy) is not as fuel-efficient as the conventionally-powered 2013 Nissan Altima (27 MPG City/38 MPG Hwy).”

http://oregoncatalyst.com/19052-forbes-gm-headed-bankruptcy.html




Auto Bailout Legacy: GM's European Nightmare

Aug 16, 2012

Three years into their forced marriage with GM, the American taxpayers have seen the value of their investment in GM deteriorate by approximately $24 billion, largely due to continuing European losses. Exposure in Europe has contributed to crushing the value of GM's stock due to its chaotic and failing Opel unit in Germany. While government, journalists and Wall Street sympathizers have given the Obama Administration and GM leadership an almost incomprehensible pass on this value destruction and massive loss (presumably due to the macro-economic nature of the crisis), it's time to call for the accountability that this new Board was supposedly going to deliver.

Overlooked is that the value-destroying, cash-sucking disaster that is GM Europe was packaged and ready for sale to new European buyers in 2009 before the new Obama GM Board of Directors slammed the brakes on the deal, throwing GM into its current value free-fall. In fact, the decision to not sell the Opel operations (which has not been profitable for more than a decade) in 2009 after GM cleared bankruptcy was the very first major decision of the new Obama Board. Had Opel been sold, GM stock would be much higher than it is today.

In November of 2009, the governments of Russia, Germany and the US were engaged in a major international deal that would have seen the global auto parts manufacturer Magna purchasing a majority portion of GM's failing Opel unit through a combination of public and private funding coming from Russia and Germany. Then interim GM CEO Fritz Henderson made the controversial decision to simply sell the unit off. The cost of fixing Opel and ridding the company of the over-capacity was a task that would cost into the tens of billions of dollars, if it were possible at all due to the legal and political obstacles in the way.

But the "new and improved" Obama Board of Directors, working mostly at the persistent lobbying and urging of the UAW's appointee, Steve Girsky (in photo), were naively convinced that Opel was simply a rough jewel in need of some new leadership (Opel fired its third leader in as many years a few weeks ago) and TLC from the brain-trust in Detroit. With his persuasive lobbying, the union's man Girsky convinced all but two of the Board members to vote to ditch the planned sale and hold onto this "gem" that has now contributed to the loss of about $24 billion of the American taxpayers' forced investment. Beyond the sheer magnitude of the value losses, fixing Europe has become an all-consuming distraction that is draining GM of vital and scarce resources.

This became evident on last quarter's earnings conference call, where CFO Dan Amman ducked and weaved in answering how much of the American taxpayers' money was being lent to Opel to sustain its failing operations. And as if the misdeeds and mistakes couldn't get worse, GM tied itself up in an equity alliance with the only other automaker in the region in as bad or worse shape than Opel, Peugeot. GM just made the shocking admission with an SEC filing that it will likely have to write-down the investment as a loss since Peugeot's stock price has also fallen off a cliff with little or no hope of recovery. How's that new and improved government leadership and accountability working for you now?

Another of the GM Board's major decisions around the time that they were blowing the sale of Opel was to oust Henderson from his position. Ironically, the move may have been based on Henderson's desire to dump Opel. From a Businessweek article from that period:


One long-time GM executive told me that Henderson wanted to sell GM's long-suffering Opel unit in Europe. He thought Opel's cash drain and problems will be too much of a distraction for GM at a time when it is trying to repair the U.S. business and mind its growing overseas operations. But the board, led by Girsky, Bonderman and Ackerman, wanted to keep it. They figured that selling it off would leave GM weak in a big market like Europe. Plus, the board was dismayed that Henderson didn't get more than the $750 million that parts maker Magna was going to pay for a majority stake in Opel.

All of this leads one to ask the obvious question, "What would the American taxpayer investment look like if GM wasn't as exposed in Europe, as would have been the plan had the new enlightened government and union-sponsored Board of Directors not intervened?" While any such answer would be speculative, it is obvious that the company would be in a much stronger position today. While pundits point to a weak environment in the auto sector as a reason for GM's poor stock performance, a comparison of GM to other major players in the field reveal how poorly the Obama-appointed leadership has performed and give an indication of how much stronger GM would have been if not saddled with its European anchor around its neck.

Since GM's IPO almost two years ago, the broader S&P 500 has gone up about 30%. During that period, Ford shares have gone down about 15%, Toyota up about 15%, Honda up about 5%, Nissan up about 35%, Hyundai up about 60% and Volkswagen up about 85%. Make no mistake; GM is vastly underperforming the industry, despite an influx of approximately $50 billion of taxpayer funds. In addition to US taxpayers anteing up, Canada put in over $10 billion and GM was relieved of about $28 billion of bondholder obligations as UAW claims were protected. That's an improvement of almost $90 billion to the balance sheet and the company still lags the competition!

GM's performance is an embarrassment to its Obama-appointed leadership and an indication that the Administration has not fixed the underlying problems there. Worse yet, when a possible solution to one of the biggest overhangs, GM Europe, was on the table, the new leadership nixed the deal. And now an unstable management team, which seems to be constantly reshuffling as it tries to find direction, does not inspire confidence. Unfortunately for the taxpayers, it appears the damage is done and the ability to pull out a recovery is all but passed. There is no reason to continue the market-timing gamble that sees taxpayer money risked on a company that should be allowed to sink or swim on its own, without government input. It's time to simply cut the losses and dump taxpayers' remaining stock and end this failed experiment once and for all.

http://nlpc.org/stories/2012/08/16/auto-bailout-legacy-gms-european-nightmare
 GreenThumbz18
Joined: 4/25/2012
Msg: 30
GM 'Recovery' a total fraud. Lawsuit pending.
Posted: 9/9/2012 2:03:04 AM
Re: msg 12 - "If you don't understand that the entire country benefited from the rescue of the auto industry, then there is no hope for you."

Really?
I have been reading these posts, and has anyone mentioned the GM bondholders? They got buttfukked out of about 25 billion dollars. I guess they don't count, oh well.

Obama's General Motors [GM] Tarp Bailout - The Untold Details
http://gaanderson.hubpages.com/hub/Obama-General-Motors-GM-Tarp-Bailout-Untold-Details
Regardless of the GM bailout headlines proclaiming the staggering numbers, the real story of the government's bailout of GM, using TARP funds, is much more than just the billions of dollars involved. It is more importantly a story of governmental hubris that started with President Bush and the Republican Congress panicking and pandering to public fears, followed by President Obama and his administration - the Treasury Department in particular, skirting, or ignoring the rule of law to pursue a plan that was formulated based on political considerations rather than established contract law and sound economic procedures.

As a nation of laws, our problems with the GM bailout shouldn't be just the billions of taxpayer dollars used, they should also include the governmental bailout actions that broke whatever rules got in the way of their agenda, and, their intended efforts to deceive the public though misinformation and factual omission.
(excerpted)

Gettelfinger Motors
The mauling of GM's bondholders reveals Treasury's political hand.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124105303238271343.html

President Obama insisted at his press conference last night that he doesn't want to nationalize the auto industry (or the banks, or the mortgage market, or . . .). But if that's true, why has he proposed a restructuring plan for General Motors that leaves the government with a majority stake in the car maker?

The feds have decided they should own a neat 50% of GM, yet that is not the natural outcome of the $16.2 billion that the Treasury has so far lent to the company. Nor is the 40% ownership of GM that the plan awards to the United Auto Workers a natural result of the company's obligations to the union.

Yet Secretary Timothy Geithner and his auto task force, led by Steven Rattner, have somehow decided that Treasury and UAW chief Ron Gettelfinger will get to own a combined 90% of GM. If there's a reason other than the political symbiosis among the Obama Administration, Michigan Democrats and the auto union, it's hard to discern. From now on let's call it Gettelfinger Motors, or perhaps simply the Obama Motor Company, though in the latter they'd have to change the nameplates.

The biggest losers here are GM's bondholders. According the Treasury-GM debt-for-equity swap announced Monday, GM has $27.2 billion in unsecured bonds owned by the public. These are owned by mutual funds, pension funds, hedge funds and retail investors who bought them directly through their brokers. Under Monday's offer, they would exchange their $27.2 billion in bonds for 10% of the stock of the restructured GM. This could amount to less than five cents on the dollar.
(excerpted)

I hate to be the party pooper here, but in my opinion the GM "bailout" was/is a disaster. They broke so many laws it's not even funny. But then again, the Obama administration has no problem skirting archaic laws like our Constitution.
After all, which is more important, The Constitution, or union jobs?
hint- Constitutions don't vote.

p.s. - If you are getting paid $60/hr (wage + benefits) to screw on fenders in an auto plant, your days are numbered. Sorry if I make anyone cry.
Reality suxx.
 SpaceTimeLight
Joined: 8/19/2012
Msg: 31
GM 'Recovery' a total fraud. Lawsuit pending.
Posted: 9/9/2012 5:02:13 AM
OutofControl....


try going to Cuba to see how well a ¨Socialist paradise¨works out..most people starve & scramble to get enough to survive, while the Communist Party of Cuba fat cats get fatter


I have been to Cuba many times. Cuba is the future. Those who support the correct way of doing things, where it is the "people first", get rewarded. As it should be. The whole democracy thing here in the US is outdated, as we have seen by the way President Obama has had to use executive orders to get anything done, even having to do so around his own party.

Hopefully, President Obama will institute something like they have in Cuba, on most every block, called the "Committee for the Defense of the Revolution", the "CDR". While not soldiers, they are fighters in making sure Cuba remains fair for all living there. I hope that President Obama gets to carry through with his thought of a civilian army the size of the military army. It is the only way to keep things fair with the growing number of people who are becoming part of the government, instead of being against the government.

It is true that some in Cuba have more than others, but those are rewards for good party service and for making sure Cuba remains fair.

So, Out, you think I do not know Cuba, but you "ass"umed too soon.
 OMG!WTF!
Joined: 12/3/2007
Msg: 32
view profile
History
GM 'Recovery' a total fraud. Lawsuit pending.
Posted: 9/9/2012 5:50:13 AM

have been to Cuba many times. Cuba is the future. Those who support the correct way of doing things, where it is the "people first", get rewarded. As it should be


Ahhhh. So that's why about a million people have paddled to Florida on floating doors.
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 33
GM 'Recovery' a total fraud. Lawsuit pending.
Posted: 9/9/2012 7:01:01 AM
@OMG


That is likely one of the last reasons any country agrees to buy US debt.


Okay, then show us when it was the last time that the US defaulted on its debt!


If the well being of my own economy depended on selling cheap crap to the broke country I'm lending money to, and if I had warehouses stocked full of that countries hundred dollar bills from decades of trade imbalances then yes, I absolutely would lend them money.


The US dollar is the de-facto currency of most developing countries in the world (minus the Euro-zone; UK; Japan). Nothing is stopping China from lending these countries the same kind of money they are "lending" us now! The only other major use for the USD for China is to buy oil. And guess what the ME countries do with that money once China pays them? It comes right back here! This is what is called the GLOBAL economy! Lastly, what is stopping many of these countries from lending USD to europe/asia? Answer: the fear of default! Just look at the Euro-zone debacle. When things get shaky, every one runs back to invest in the US, regardless of the deficit.


Not this big.


It doesn't matter! If the deficit were a threat to economic stability; you'd see great vacillations; that is; plain market instability, and currency de-stabilization. The US stock market is over 13k from the 7.5 it was in late 2008. Yeah, interest rates are low, but that is not seen as a barrier to economic expansion & potential growth!
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
@Steelcity


You think big corp will stay here if they get taxed to death? 2 things will happen they will greatly reduce the size of their work force here or move over seas with countries with much lower tax rates. which will causeeven more people to lose their jobs here.


News-flash! The above stated has already happened, and these companies are not anywhere near being "taxed to death". Outsourcing is not a function of taxation, but rather more due to cheap labor and the low cost of doing business in a 3rd world country. In the US, we cannot pay a worker $1/hour with no benefits; no matter how many tax breaks you give a company or corporation. Look at Apple; how much do you think an I-phone/Pad would cost if it were made in the US or Canada. Even if Apple paid no taxes, it would probably cost the consumer 5 times more!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

@Green


The biggest losers here are GM's bondholders.


While this might be true, it is certainly no reason not to have bailed out the auto industry. When one invests; losses in anyway are not guaranteed; it is a risk the investor must take!

No country in the world with a long established auto industry would have let it go under; Imagine if Japan or Korea or Germany were in the same boat. Your auto industry is the life line & bell-weather of ALL heavy industry. We have little or no light industy left in the US; If we'd allowed the auto industry to sink; we run the risk of sterilizing all major industrial production (except for aircraft) in the US.
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 34
GM 'Recovery' a total fraud. Lawsuit pending.
Posted: 9/9/2012 7:02:39 AM

it was given to companies for tax write offs so companies that went under when people lost their jobs got a tax write off?...

Yes, and this is just one of them.

...If a company was closing a plant to move that plant overseas and incurred $1 million in expenses – ranging from the cost of scrapping equipment to shipping physical capital to clean up costs – it could right now deduct those expenses, and get a tax reduction of $350,000 (assuming the firm faces the 35 percent statutory tax rate). The President proposes to eliminate this tax deduction. And, if a corporation moving jobs to the U.S. incurred similar expenses, the President proposes to provide that company with a tax credit of $200,000 to help offset these costs and encourage investment here at home...
http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/whitehouse_files/fact_sheet.pdf



...Many of those jobs weren't lost they were moved elsewhere... So 23 million people lost their jobs to over seas? There were many small businesses that went under as well. So it's not just about the big corp here.

No it is not, but a failure to understand that those small business jobs losses where a side effect of the larger ones is just that, a failure to understand that when good paying manufacturing jobs go away, less money is spent in the local economy and the local small business's hurt and close. So you are correct that there where small business jobs losses but fail to understand why they are happening.



You are acting like all these people lost their jobs from big corp when many of these jobs people worked for were also small businesses that went under due to a bad economy...

See above.



So big corp having to pay higher taxes which caused them to layoff people by scaling back on their forforce or move over seas to avoid big tax hikes helped those 23 million people out how again?

See above for just one of the examples.



well latetst job report came out and well it's not looking good. Something has to change.

...and by not looking too good you mean it is not growing fast enough, and by change you want to add a guy that will help fuel the fire that will create more ways for this to keep happening.




Yes because rasing taxes on big corp are not doing that already... You think big corp will stay here if they get taxed to death? 2 things will happen they will greatly reduce the size of their work force here or move over seas with countries with much lower tax rates. which will causeeven more people to lose their jobs here.

Please cite your source for taxes being increased on corporations over the last 10 years, otherwise I will assume you are just repeating a false narrative, as corporate profits are at an all time high and many times companies have laid employees off that are making these record profits.




...but taxing big corp to death will make people be able to find work when these big corp scale back on their work force of move over seas?

Nope, no one is asking to tax those big corporations to death as many of them pay little to no taxes to begin with.




Yes this was someone that said back in 2009 that he will end lobbyist on capitol hill yet it's still going on under his admin as we speak. If obama did that he would look like a giant hypocritic.

So if someone does what they say they are a hypocrite?
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 35
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History
GM 'Recovery' a total fraud. Lawsuit pending.
Posted: 9/9/2012 7:53:51 AM

So big corp having to pay higher taxes which caused them to layoff people by scaling back on their forforce or move over seas to avoid big tax hikes helped those 23 million people out how again?


This has become one of the most common chants of those who want to give the wealthy upper crust an even bigger slice of the pie, and it's very frustrating.

First and foremost, the proportion of money involved in taxes, is TINY, compared to other factors that drive companies to move their operations overseas. A ton more of it, is simply that wages overseas are so much lower than here, that even the additional costs of setting up overseas management is a trifle. Add to that, that both the Democrats and Republicans rearranged a ton of laws during the last three decades, as a panicked way to try to fix real economic challenges with tiny bandages and tricks, and made a messy situation so Byzantine, that even figuring out who's getting what money and why, is next to impossible.

If you look just at the American Cost of Living, specifically the cost of housing (real estate etc), and the cost of health care, and the way those things drive up the cost of everything else, you should be able to recognize that no matter how low you tax the rich, and corporations, even down to zero, they will STILL have ample reason to move every job overseas but their own.

The only way to act to make America genuinely more competitive from the American working/middle class point of view, is to tremendously lower the cost of living, so that wages CAN be brought down to competitive levels.

No one in positions of power want to do that, ESPECIALLY not the wealthy investment classes, because to do so would mean putting an end to how they make 99% of their huge incomes. Therefore they will all claim instead, that it's all about taxes and regulation of their businesses.
 Sciencetreker
Joined: 2/13/2012
Msg: 36
view profile
History
GM 'Recovery' a total fraud. Lawsuit pending.
Posted: 9/9/2012 8:37:15 AM
People confuse 'big corporations' wiuth the rich. Big corporations are usually publically traded companies that all types of individuals have share in via various methods (pensions, funds, etc.). The government can tax individuals more via dividends, etc. but then why would they invest in a 'big corporation'? This is why commodities like gold investment goes up..

Re GM and bondholders. No, the biggest loser has been the US governmnet (taxpayers). GM shares have plummeted and the governmnet can't sell it's shares or the shares would nose dive further and GM would collapse. GM is like a table with 2 of the legs being held up by government investment. Yes, GM would have collapsed without that investment but now it is on artificial life support 'forever'.

Re a comment on Cuba. I've been twice. It's an 'ok' place. Culturally interesting but 'drab'. People seem 'ok' off and we spoke freely about all types of things but not much for most people to look forward to day to day. I only went the second time because it was work related. Much prefer Jamaica with a bit more 'oomph' to it.
 OutofControlMan
Joined: 12/22/2011
Msg: 37
GM 'Recovery' a total fraud. Lawsuit pending.
Posted: 9/9/2012 8:53:58 AM
Re a comment on Cuba. I've been twice. It's an 'ok' place. Culturally interesting but 'drab'. People seem 'ok' off and we spoke freely about all types of things but not much for most people to look forward to day to day. I only went the second time because it was work related. Much prefer Jamaica with a bit more 'oomph' to it.

it´s more than slightly creepy to me how tightly the Cuban government controls access to media & telcoms..the average citizen cannot have internet access at home, only by waiting in line at a Correo (post office) to access a gov´t-monitored & restricted computer..some gov´t officials may have access at work, e-mail is highly restricted because you never know, someone might say something derogatory about the glorious Cuban gov´t or commie party

ök off¨? depends on where you go, some are , some are not. I take it you never visited CARDENAS?

there the main transport, (local bus) is a horse pulling a wooden cart with wooden benches on it hat can hold about 10-12 seated and 3-4 more standing. as you can imagine, the stench of horse-poop permeates the air and flies have a field day. if you were mostly in or around Varadero or Havana you didn´t see much of the real poverty-stricken Cuba.

the Cuban Communist Party block headquarters on virtually every block in major cities also seems-- creepy

got to keep them spying on their fellow citizens lest they say anything deropgatory about Fidel or Raul, or the other mass/serial murderers that are heroes of la Revoluccion, such as Ernesto ´´Che´´ Guevera..
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 38
view profile
History
GM 'Recovery' a total fraud. Lawsuit pending.
Posted: 9/9/2012 8:59:59 AM

People confuse 'big corporations' wiuth the rich. Big corporations are usually publically traded companies that all types of individuals have share in via various methods (pensions, funds, etc.).


For the purposes of this discussion, that doesn't matter. Not because the differences aren't real, but because the advocates of "fixing the economy by reducing taxes on high incomes" lump them together themselves.
 Sciencetreker
Joined: 2/13/2012
Msg: 39
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Posted: 9/9/2012 9:10:18 AM
Igor, so? your logic eludes me. Why doesn't it matter?

Again, you are more concerned with 'sticking it' to someone and ideology rather than solutions. This is positive exactly 'how' ?


.
 GreenThumbz18
Joined: 4/25/2012
Msg: 40
GM 'Recovery' a total fraud. Lawsuit pending.
Posted: 9/9/2012 9:24:13 AM
^^^^^^
"Re GM and bondholders. No, the biggest loser has been the US governmnet (taxpayers). GM shares have plummeted and the governmnet can't sell it's shares or the shares would nose dive further and GM would collapse. GM is like a table with 2 of the legs being held up by government investment. Yes, GM would have collapsed without that investment but now it is on artificial life support 'forever'."

So, the Obama administration takes over GM, appoints a new CEO, re-assigns the stock to workers, wipes out previous common stock and converts bondholders into 10% of "new" stock.
Why do people think that Obama is anti-business? I have no idea.
 SpaceTimeLight
Joined: 8/19/2012
Msg: 41
GM 'Recovery' a total fraud. Lawsuit pending.
Posted: 9/9/2012 9:51:50 AM
out...


Cuba is what the US hopes to become under President Obama. The only reason Cuba is not all that well of is because of the trade embargo by the US. This has forced those who do the planning and who are in charge to take more than the average Cuban.

As far as transportation, that has improved. The old "Camels" are mostly gone, and have been replaced by more reliable transportation.

I have been all over Cuba and have seen almost every place. Yes, some places in Cuba are less well off, but so are many in the United States. Go to inner city Detroit.

There is nothing wrong with the government trying to protect its citizens by limiting their access to information, including the internet and radio and television. That can and should be done here, and will be done here with the re-instatement of the "Fairness Doctrine". What good does Fox news do when it spreads nothing but lies? Same with the talkers, like Rush Limbaugh. They rip apart President Obama so much that he cannot get the truth out, hardly.

It may seem "creepy" to you that there are people watching out for the government -- the peoples-- interests, but if that were the case here in the US, we would not be in such trouble. People would be turned in for crimes against each other -- because you are only hurting your fellow citizen when you accumulate more than what is fair. That is what leads to violence and killing.

The Cuban citizens need to be monitored, too. There are many illegal Paladar's operating, for instance. These are the independently run small restaurants that Fidel allowed to open after the Soviet Union gave up their support -- because of US pressuring the Soviet economy into a wreck. Fidel allowed a number to open, but now there are many that are operating outside the law. These illegal Paladars are serving food and the profit is being kept entirely by the owners. They have no right to do that, because they did not capture the food or the fish or anything else, nor build the buildings they are in. That was all done by the government, which is the point President Obama was TRYING to make when his words got taken out of context.

This is a post democratic and post free enterprise world. It is over. And you know what, you have people like Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush to thank for it. They corrupted the systems so only their friends made big money.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 42
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Posted: 9/9/2012 10:00:31 AM
??? I have no idea what you are on about, Sciencetrekker, but I'm guessing that because I failed to support the idea that dropping taxes even further than they have been on people and corporations, as the only solution to a problem that I have clearly stated I don't believe is caused by taxes, that I am therefore hoping to "stick" something to someone.

I never said anything anywhere about wanting to "stick" anyone with anything.

As I said, the fact that there ARE big differences between companies, and wealthy individuals, does not matter for the purpose of this discussion. That is because the people who currently debate these issues in support of lowering those two separate tax rates, insist that both of them need to be done together. This has nothing to do either way with what I said about what I think the real problem is.

I am currently convinced, that the only result that will be seen from a dramatic additional lowering of taxes on the upper income peoples and companies at this time, will be a reduction of tax revenues. This is because I am convinced that the cause of the problem lies elsewhere, and not because I hate rich people.

In the same way, I think it is an even BIGGER mistake, to stop all government spending until the debt is paid down, not because I hope to profit from some government largess, but because I know that when you refuse to invest in your physical plant and your future, in hopes of reducing your debts, that the number one result has always been that your income will fall as a result, long before your debt goes away. In this sense, I side with much of the thinking of Reaganite Republicans of the past.
 Sciencetreker
Joined: 2/13/2012
Msg: 43
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Posted: 9/9/2012 11:12:17 AM
Igor:



In the same way, I think it is an even BIGGER mistake, to stop all government spending until the debt is paid down, not because I hope to profit from some government largess, but because I know that when you refuse to invest in your physical plant and your future, in hopes of reducing your debts, that the number one result has always been that your income will fall as a result, long before your debt goes away


Yes, the answer is investment. I'd rather leave the money of taxpayers so they can invest. The US government invests in GM and it's a dying company that has lost 39% in stock value. In the meantime the rest of the stock marker has gone up 20%. An inefficient GM s competes against a more efficient Ford and Toyoa that also produce cars and thus stifles the market for more efficient companies investing even more....investments that are not hollow but actually provide a base for future growth.

Back to Cuba. i don't know what Cuba some of the comments are based upon. When I was there it was neither a police state nor some paradise. It was rather 'blah'. the resorts where Canadians stay are fine but get off the tourist routes and Cubans seem to go through the motions in life. The irony with US policy towards Cuba is that if tomorrow the USA was to lift all restrictions and do the opposite, give Cuba preferred trade status, the regime would collapse. Cubans want 'stuff' but they also don't want to think the Americans defeated their resolve.
 SteelCity1981
Joined: 8/16/2005
Msg: 44
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Posted: 9/9/2012 1:23:49 PM

This has become one of the most common chants of those who want to give the wealthy upper crust an even bigger slice of the pie, and it's very frustrating.


It's not about that it's about getting people back to work all 23 million people in which the latest job report reflects on peoples frustration with that and how it has missed its mark by 34 thousand to keep pace with the population growth.



News-flash! The above stated has already happened, and these companies are not anywhere near being "taxed to death".


i guess you didn't actually know that these companies have the highest corp tax rate in the world now even surpassing Japan @ 39.2%




Yes, and this is just one of them.


that still doesn't include the countless small business jobs that were lost where they got nothing.



but fail to understand why they are happening


I fail to understaad how rasing taxes in a bad economy is a bad idea?



Please cite your source




As of yesterday, the U.S. corporate tax rate of 39.2 percent claimed the world’s top spot, edging out Japan which recently lowered its rate from 39.5 percent to 36.8 percent. (The U.S. rate includes the 35 percent federal rate plus the average rate the states add on.) That’s well above the 25 percent average of other developed nations.

http://blog.heritage.org/2012/04/02/morning-bell-the-highest-taxes-in-the-world/


We are the highest corp tax rated country in the world there you go.



and by not looking too good you mean it is not growing fast enough, and by change you want to add a guy that will help fuel the fire that will create more ways for this to keep happening.


You mean like the current prez. Not growing fast enough is under achviving of what the actual jobs report should have been in which has missed the mark on what needs to happen to keep up with population growth.



So if someone does what they say they are a hypocrite?


What has he done about it? Nothing. So yes it would.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/white-house-visitor-logs-show-lobbying-going-strong/2012/05/20/gIQA2ok4dU_story.html
 OutofControlMan
Joined: 12/22/2011
Msg: 45
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Posted: 9/9/2012 1:45:28 PM
¨Back to Cuba. i don't know what Cuba some of the comments are based upon. When I was there it was neither a police state nor some paradise. It was rather 'blah'. the resorts where Canadians stay are fine but get off the tourist routes and Cubans seem to go through the motions in life.

do you realize that Cuban citizens have to apply to the gov´t for an ëxit visa¨to be able to leave Cuba, to travel any where else in the world ? Cuba is one of the few places I´ve seen that has immigration officers checking everyone LEAVING as well as everyone coming into, the country. of course I´m fairly young, haven´t traveled a LOT, and times have changed in many places ..I understand that the USSR and other Iron Curtain communist countries had the same policy..likely North Korea, Iran, etc. still do..?

of course msot Cubans likely couldn´t afford the pric eof an airline ticket even if the gov´t woudl ¨let¨them leave.

they let a few ¨known¨good commie types travel, but anyone perceived to be a ´´trouble-maker of any type is punished by always having their exit visa applciation turned down or denied.

restricting a person´s right to travel as they please violates a basic human right recognized by the UN..that right was even delineated hundreds of years ago in the Magna Carta..

¨good for the gov´t ¨i.e. ´the people--?

yeah, right, ever read ¨Animal Farm¨or ¨1984¨?

all are equal, but some are more equal than others..

since I posted this maybe the commie cubans will scan my pic and have me on a ¨watch list¨as an undesireable --I´ll never be able to go to the wonderful socialist paradise of Cuba ever again

NO GREAT LOSS!
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 46
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Posted: 9/9/2012 2:01:46 PM
i guess you didn't actually know that these companies have the highest corp tax rate in the world now even surpassing Japan @ 39.2%


I keep hearing "dueling factiods" about this number. The bulk of what I've read, says that that number is VERY misleading, owing to the fact that it is the NOMINAL tax rate, not the ACTUAL one. Many corporations pay a way lower rate than that, due to the myriad exceptions and special rules and standardized tricks they are allowed to use. At least one major company was famous recently for managing to achieve a zero tax rate by how they played the game. G.E. I think?


I have not seen anyone on either side of the argument cite actual numbers comparing ACTUAL tax rates between countries. Since they have not, I tend to be suspicious that the numbers are too compatible to help either side win the argument.

That's one thing that so far has been a fairly reliable "trick" for us outside observers to use: if a politician or a pundit leaves something out of their speeches or arguments, it's because that entire subject area either doesn't help them at all, or is actually detrimental to their agenda.

So, is the REAL FUNCTIONAL tax rate here higher than Japan, or is it just the "How much you would pay of you were an idiot in charge of a company" number?

And secondarily, is Japan currently in worse shape than we are economically? pertinent additional question, I think.
 GreenThumbz18
Joined: 4/25/2012
Msg: 47
GM 'Recovery' a total fraud. Lawsuit pending.
Posted: 9/9/2012 2:30:03 PM
OP - I think this is what you originally were describing :

GM Halts Chevy Volt Production After ZeroHedge Exposes Accounting Fraud
http://blog.alexanderhiggins.com/2012/03/03/gm-halts-chevy-volt-production-zerohedge-exposes-accounting-fraud-90102/

"On Thursday, we were the first to expose GM’s latest strong car sales data as nothing more than the latest in a long series of accounting gimmicks known as ‘channel stuffing’ when excess inventory is offloaded to a vendor channel, in this case GM dealers, while allowing the company to book revenue, and, of course, profits (most likely on a FIFO basis thus further making numbers a complete myth in a time of once again surging input costs). The problem with channel stuffing is it can only go on for so long before the intermediary collapses under its own weight due to so much excess inventory the only next possible step is wholesale dumpin, in the process destroying the brand. Sure enough, it took about 24 hours for this latest speculation to be proven right as GM announce it was “temporarily” halting production of its Volt electric car. Per The Hill: “We needed to maintain proper inventory and make sure that we continued to meet market demand,” GM spokesman Chris Lee said in a telephone interview.” Translated into English, this means that GM has flooded dealer floors with so many of the spontaneously combusting cars that it has managed to bring demand to zero.

But not before it took benefit for “selling” them over the past several months, in the process completely fooling the market and the adminstration sycophants into believing that the SAAR for US auto sales has risen to a whopping 15.1 million in February compared to 13.3 million year ago, and 14 million expected, when in reality all that has happened is that excess inventory has flooded the market and now sales, which can no longer be masaged via channel stuffing, are about to drop off a cliff. And adding insult to injury, the halt also means that thousands of GM workers will now be “temporarily” fired. One wonders how many millions of workers will be laid off when the SAAR decline to its fair value, somewhere about 2-3 million lower?"
(excerpted)
 SteelCity1981
Joined: 8/16/2005
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Posted: 9/9/2012 2:35:07 PM

have not seen anyone on either side of the argument cite actual numbers comparing ACTUAL tax rates between countries. Since they have not, I tend to be suspicious that the numbers are too compatible to help either side win the argument.


here is a list of all the corp tax rates world wide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tax_rates#List
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
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Posted: 9/9/2012 3:01:14 PM
^^^ Thanks, steelcity, but note that that list says right at the top:



The table is not intended to represent the true tax burden to either the corporation or the individual in the listed country.


That's the problem, especially in the US, with all the games that Congress plays with taxes. They take away with one hand, and give back again with the other. That's why Romney can say as he does, that he intends to raise revenues by cutting nominal tax rates, while eliminating loopholes and other trick plays. The trouble with his promise, is the same one we've had with every Democrat who has promised exactly the same thing: once in power, even if they follow through with a "tax overhaul," there's no guarantee that they wont cause as much abuse as they cure.

I would vote for a lowering of corporate tax rates to an actual level, with no exceptions and loopholes, just as I would for the same sort of thing being done for individuals. The problem I have with the claims of the pundits and politicians is that so far, no matter who has made what promises, when the final figures come in, it's been a game of shuffle and hide. Hence again, that the NOMINAL rates are higher here, is a meaningless or manipulative/deceptive claim.

Note also, that we can see there that though Germany is listed as having the NEXT highest corporate tax rate, that their economy is doing pretty good, compared to the rest of Europe, especially. Hence, no obvious connection is shown between corporate tax rates, and the general prosperity of the nation in question.
 SpaceTimeLight
Joined: 8/19/2012
Msg: 50
GM 'Recovery' a total fraud. Lawsuit pending.
Posted: 9/9/2012 5:26:18 PM
out...

You are upset over what you have decided are perks for some of the more equal "animals". I have real both books suggested, plus "Brave New World", Plato's "Republic" and Thomas Moore's "Utopia", plus Atlas Shrugged and The Road to Serfdom. The latter two are very dangerous books and should be banned.

The fact is, there is always inequality. In the US there is much inequality, but unlike Cuba, there is nobody who can decide what is fair across the board for the majority. This is where President Obama is going to in his various programs, including Affordable Care.

Actually, the Cubans are not interested in you beyond who you talked to. Many have tried to spread the Yankee lies about life, but nobody is fooled. The Canadians, Germans, South Americans all visit Cuba, and those who linger too long with US citizens should be suspect. I wouldn't attach so much importance to yourself.

It is too bad that so many are living in a delusional world. Free enterprise across the globe in Western countries has failed. Democracy has failed, too, with most politicians being "voted" in by suspect ballots.

GM apparently still owes the US government money, but so what? President Obama should just take possession of it, which is what he wanted to do, really, and build the kind of cars that experts think are needed to save oil.

I make no bones about my political leanings. I am a socialist who wants to see a communist world. With exceptional leaders like President Obama trying to lead a backwards nation forward, I think I will see that day, not just in Cuba.
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