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 _shakti_
Joined: 7/5/2011
Msg: 60
Vipassana MeditationPage 4 of 5    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5)

I mean specifically, there has to be an infrastructure. Buildings with light and heat, a designated place for people to meet and sit and someone to arrange it. A teacher or at least a facilitator on hand, and the explicit support of a lineage holder, whatever lineage that might be.
There is all of those things, and you can access info on the link that I shared with you if you are so inclined.

But I will acknowledge that the Diamond Way group is more established than the Red Deer vipassana group sits. Though there are regular sits in Calgary and Edmonton as I had already mentioned. And they are working on a centre in Bowden, which I'm pretty excited about. I hope to be a part of it somehow too.

I have to admit Lama Ole freaks me out a bit
Yeah, exactly. And it's difficult for me to join something if I don't respect its origins, founder, father, master.. whatever you want to call it. I feel the same about Yogi Bhajan, which is actually why I could never take teacher training in the yoga tradition that I love. Amazing what you find when you scratch beneath the surface sometimes..
 Stray__Cat
Joined: 7/12/2006
Msg: 61
Vipassana Meditation
Posted: 3/12/2013 3:43:23 PM
I'm Kagyu

I wonder what the Lama is like up in Red Deer.
You should crash the place just to check em out.
They're Buddhists.
They won't mind.
 _shakti_
Joined: 7/5/2011
Msg: 62
Vipassana Meditation
Posted: 3/12/2013 8:03:11 PM
The group is a gathering of Buddhists following The Diamond Way teachings at someone's apartment, there is no centre. Lama Ole is their leader, or whatever you want to call it. All one has to do is google his name with the word sex added and a whole host of stuff comes up.....

http://diamondwaycult.blogspot.ca/2009/09/ole-nydahl-diamond-way-accused-of.html

Which really isn't that much of a surprise to me anymore. LIke I said earlier, once you scratch beneath the surface, it's amazing what one finds..

He's also listed on this site, warning people about Lama's/spiritual teachers who have had many complaints about them:

http://viewonbuddhism.org/controversy-controversial-teacher-group-center-questionable.html

As you know Stray, that is the LAST type of thing I need. So the nice, clean safety of vipassana is what I'll stick to. At least I can trust it, and not ever have to worry about that type of thing again. As a man, maybe that's not a big consideration? But it definitely is for me.

Hey Sure Dance.. if you're still around.. do you know anything on how to become a meditation teacher in the vipassana community?
 Luthion
Joined: 12/1/2008
Msg: 63
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History
Vipassana Meditation
Posted: 3/13/2013 1:26:15 AM
I just wanted to hop into this thread for a moment and offer my respects for the discussion and information in here. As a practising - and still very confused and naive - residing this thread has been very insightful.

It is sad to see that even Buddhism, a belief system devolutely dedicated to kindness, understanding, and the removal of ego is just as subject to the corruption of the human ego as everything else. I love it's teachings and the ideology, and I think the world is a better place for its existence, but these stories amongst the faith of greed, sexual abuse and deceit can wear away at that belief. If even its most famous faces (example: Soygal Rinpoche) can't seem to hold true to basic tenets, what hope do the rest of us have? Finding a simple, honest Buddhist group seems to be exceptionally difficult...

Thanks for all the information on meditating though. I will be looking into here.
 _shakti_
Joined: 7/5/2011
Msg: 64
Vipassana Meditation
Posted: 3/13/2013 3:40:52 PM
I agree, it is sad. And I was very shocked at first.

It's there in yoga as well, unfortunately. I wanted to take teacher training in my fav style of yoga, but learning more about the founder turned me off completely. You have to want to be part of that lineage and take his teachings on, I simply cannot and will not do that. But I do enjoy my local classes, and the female teacher who teaches them.

Wherever there is a power differential.. teacher/student.. there is potential for misuse of that power. Add sexual attraction to the mix... and you have a recipe for disaster. I was a bit naive to that, but learned quickly enough I suppose. I do my research now before getting involved in anything, always will.

One thing I've noticed though, is that female spiritual teachers don't tend to try to capitalize on that power differential quite as much as do the men. I'm not saying it doesn't or hasn't happened, but nowhere near the same level. Perhaps that is because historically, men are seen as more of a legitimate spiritual authority and are thus more universally plentiful.. women have had to fight for equality in that regard. But even still, there are many female yoga teachers, probably more so than men.. and you just don't hear about it as much.

I've also noticed that it tends to happen with more prevalence in those who follow the tantric path. I suppose there are obvious corollaries there, but it even occurs in the more right handed (celibate) path.

Anyway, it's something that does fascinate me. And it's difficult to not allow this knowledge to at times cast the whole of it in a negative light. But there is potential for darkness in all of us I suppose, it's just a matter of what we do with it.
 DevilfromToronto
Joined: 9/23/2012
Msg: 65
Vipassana Meditation
Posted: 3/14/2013 1:05:57 AM
Finding a simple, honest Buddhist group seems to be exceptionally difficult...


sorry I haven't read any posts here because I have no idea what "Vipassana Meditation" is,
when I just passed by, this quoted statement drew my attention

I didn't have too much contact with Buddhism, to me, Buddhism is a book full of advices which aim at freeing people from (mental) pain. However I wonder how many people (even Buddhists) are able to practise what it said in such a colorful world. The capacities of our hearts taking Buddhism (I meant we have the understanding of it and are able to TAKE ACTION) change over time (with our life). Direct speaking, its POINTLESS to just know the contents of Buddhism without the ability to ACT upon. For example, Buddhism said we should let go of the past, I wonder how many of us are able to do that. If people can't do what the Buddhism said like being honest, even if they are with a Buddhist group or a team of monks, they just still can't.
 Luthion
Joined: 12/1/2008
Msg: 66
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History
Vipassana Meditation
Posted: 3/14/2013 3:48:20 AM
Us humans, by our very nature, are fallible. We make mistakes, we screw up, we something's hurt people. None of us are perfect, that goes without saying.

But when I hear about people like Soygal Rinpoche hitting students and justifying it, having a poor understanding of Buddhist teachings, being verbally aggressive, it just makes me sad. Then we have those groups who exist solely to take money from people, which seems contrary to the very morals we have been thought to embrace.

I try to be as honest to the beliefs of Buddhism not only because its my faith, but simply because I believe it's lessons are a good way to live one's life. I'm far from perfect (far, far from it), but even I can't help but be frustrated by the blatant contradictions many of this people make for their own personal gain. Thankfully, its not every group or sect.
There *are* still plenty who are simply interested in learning and teaching.

On the subject of meditation, there is a young Buddhist woman who writes some of the most beautiful sounding music I've ever heard. Do a search of Oni Choyling Dolma on Google / Spotify / iTunes / whatever service you like to use. It helps me immensely when trying to meditate.
 shylovedave
Joined: 4/10/2012
Msg: 67
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History
Vipassana Meditation
Posted: 3/20/2013 7:55:30 PM
I'm not sure what the expereince is like of Vipassana Meditation, but it sounds similar to my journey of following the ten comandmants while seeking God's compassion. I hear that through isolation, meditation, contemplation and seeking good things there is a very human expereince that transforms and enlightens. Does Vipassana meditation do that, or is it that it brings an awareness in a different way? It sounds intresting.
 _shakti_
Joined: 7/5/2011
Msg: 68
Vipassana Meditation
Posted: 3/21/2013 2:04:43 AM
Dave:
I'm not sure what the expereince is like of Vipassana Meditation, but it sounds similar to my journey of following the ten comandmants while seeking God's compassion. I hear that through isolation, meditation, contemplation and seeking good things there is a very human expereince that transforms and enlightens. Does Vipassana meditation do that, or is it that it brings an awareness in a different way? It sounds interesting.
I've not done it so I can't really compare, but I've heard that contemplative prayer is quite similar to meditation. There are silent retreats within the christian tradition as well.

I can say that meditation has definitely transformed me, and continues to.. little by little.

John:
My understanding of Vipassna Meditation is it is sitting quietly and just being aware of your breathing.
There is actually a lot more to it than that, which is why (with the style I learned) you have to take the 10 day silent course to learn and absorb it all. Plus, it gives you a good head start into a daily practice.

Thanks for sharing the link to your book, looks interesting :)
 martinswain
Joined: 1/29/2013
Msg: 69
Vipassana Meditation
Posted: 3/21/2013 9:25:18 PM
Wow I'm a little surprised at you.

I'm not slagging Goenka's vipassana teachings, like I said there's no sangha that I can see. That's my personal observation and my opinion, you can take it for what it's worth, i.e. not much.

Now, Lama Ole freaks me out, but it's because he's a weird looking white guy. The fact is he's a genuine lineage holder under Trinley Dorje. There is some dispute as to whether Trinley is the authentic Karmapa, the head of the Karma Kagyu lineage, but it's because the Chinese attempted to usurp him by putting a kid in his place named Orgyen Dorje. They (the Chinese) have meddled in Tibetan Buddhism no end, for instance, forbidding the Dalai Lama from reincarnating in Tibet. His response was, I'll reincarnate where ever I choose thank you.

Being a lineage holder is serious business. The lineages go back one person at a time all the way to the Buddha. Did you know that? As they say in Zen, it goes from warm hand to warm hand and they mean it literally. It doesn't mean there aren't or can't be crooked lineage holders, but it's rare.

As far as I can tell Lama Ole is the real deal. He was asked by the karmapa to spread the word and he's done a very good job of it. Of course there are people saying bad things about him, what would you expect?

I'm not impressed with your behaviour here. Yes Diamond way in Red Deer is probably a group in someone's living room, so was Marpa Gompa when I practiced with them in Calgary. Doesn't matter, it's done under the auspice of a genuine lineage holder with guidance from an authentic, authorised teacher. I told you what that takes in Tibetan Buddhism, it's 7 years of training, including at least one 6 month retreat.

I was going to write something about Yoga and Zen but now I'm out of time, too bad.
 Stray__Cat
Joined: 7/12/2006
Msg: 70
Vipassana Meditation
Posted: 3/21/2013 9:34:05 PM
I was unaware of the Karmapa dispute.
The present one resides in India
and is recognized by The Dalai Lama.

I know the Chinese snatch any Tulku
they find in Tibet and try to replace then
with their own people.

I didn't reply to Shakti's comments on the sangha
in Red Deer as I am unfamiliar with those folks.
They may be knuckleheads up there.

However if Vipassana works for her,
then it is the path she should continue on with.
Kagyu is not for everyone.
 martinswain
Joined: 1/29/2013
Msg: 71
Vipassana Meditation
Posted: 3/21/2013 9:45:30 PM
My current teacher is a genuine vipassana teacher. His name is Gil Fronsdal and he is also a Zen master. He is also an immenent Buddhist scholar, he has a PHd in Buddhist Studies, I think from Berekely University although I could be wrong about that, and he is also a scholar of the Pali language, his translation of the dhammapada is well recognised & I personally think it's the best one out there. If there is anyone qualified to speak to a question regarding vipassana meditation, it's him. This is what he had to say about Goenka.

From Francesca in Florida: Once a year I do vipassana retreat in the Goenka silent meditation program. The principal message I get from the program is that anapanasatti, the strict observation of sensation at the rings of the nose followed by the body scanning is the purest form of meditation. The technique that was preserved in Burma the last 2600 years and is the technique that the Buddha used for his experience of enlightenment. They also say that it is this technique which sharpens the mind in a way that is so strong that no other meditation technique can replicate. Is this true and how does anybody really know this or is this a form of branding/marketing?


Gil: Yes, I don’t think there is any evidence that you can point to that there has been an unbroken lineage of meditation in a way that the Goenka tradition says, that goes back to the time of the Buddha. I know that the claim is sometimes made but the evidence hasn’t been there for it. The evidence is that it’s a relatively modern technique that comes out of Burma, about a hundred years ago or so.

Those are very strong words, coming from Gil. He goes on to say that whatever works for you is good for you. He is from California and his approach is that pretty much any meditation practice is self correcting in the long run, which I agree with. Nevertheless, if he says it's a spade you can be pretty sure it is.

Of course since everyone on this forum is apparently an expert on Buddhism I guess I can't really contribute much.
 martinswain
Joined: 1/29/2013
Msg: 72
Vipassana Meditation
Posted: 3/21/2013 9:48:03 PM

I was unaware of the Karmapa dispute.


Is there some reason you should be aware of it? Are you a karma kagyu practitioner? I am, which is why I'm aware of it. There's a ton of stuff I'm not involved with and therefore not aware of, and I don't go around acting like I should be or am. Who are you again?
 Stray__Cat
Joined: 7/12/2006
Msg: 73
Vipassana Meditation
Posted: 3/21/2013 9:48:08 PM
oh certainly contribute whatever.

Unless we are enlightened
we are not experts on this subject.

I am a practitioner in Dallas.
http://ktcdallas.org
Lama Dudjom Dorjee teaches here.

Since he says the Karmapa is legit, I don't worry about it.
I'm sure you know much more on the Lineage stuff than me.
I just meditate.
and let the leaves outside blow where they may.
 martinswain
Joined: 1/29/2013
Msg: 74
Vipassana Meditation
Posted: 3/21/2013 9:59:46 PM

If people can't do what the Buddhism said like being honest


I don't have any problem being honest. Do you?

Do you understand what I mean? I'm trying to show you why sangha is important. You don't have to answer, I probably won't read it anyway.
 martinswain
Joined: 1/29/2013
Msg: 75
Vipassana Meditation
Posted: 3/21/2013 10:09:08 PM

I am a practitioner in Dallas.
http://ktcdallas.org
Lama Dudjom Dorjee teaches here.


Thank you for answering my question.


Unless we are enlightened
we are not experts on this subject.


What makes you think being enlightened would make anyone an expert on anything? In my current practice it's not even called that, it's just called freedom. So how would being free make one an expert on anything other than bondage?

I sure you're meditation has much to do with leaves blowing where they may. I know mine does. Since you said, "we" and all.
 DevilfromToronto
Joined: 9/23/2012
Msg: 76
Vipassana Meditation
Posted: 3/21/2013 10:09:12 PM
^^^^^ @ martinswain
you, claimed to be a Buddhist, I wonder how much you did get (understand) from Buddhism, from some of your posts I read, you are really far from Buddhism

let me give you some hints : being dishonest may not be a bad thing, you have to look at the intention/motive behind this dishonesty, just like when you see a monk eating a chicken leg, don't jump to your own conclusion so fast

by the way, like I said, you are really far from Buddhism
 martinswain
Joined: 1/29/2013
Msg: 77
Vipassana Meditation
Posted: 3/21/2013 10:37:23 PM
you, claimed to be a Buddhist, I wonder how much you did get (understand) from Buddhism, from some of your posts I read, you are really far from Buddhism


I don't care if a monk eats a chicken, and I'm not a stupid child, there's a lot more to honesty than simply "telling the truth".

I asked if you had a problem being honest, didn't I. I'm far from being a Buddha, that's true, but I am Buddhist.
 DevilfromToronto
Joined: 9/23/2012
Msg: 78
Vipassana Meditation
Posted: 3/21/2013 10:47:18 PM
^^^^^

You don't have to answer, I probably won't read it anyway.


what were you doing here ??

let me give you some hints AGAIN : did you ever learn "LET GO" from Buddhism ??



let me give you some hints : being dishonest may not be a bad thing, you have to look at the intention/motive behind this dishonesty, just like when you see a monk eating a chicken leg, don't jump to your own conclusion so fast

^^^^^ my first hint to you
 martinswain
Joined: 1/29/2013
Msg: 79
Vipassana Meditation
Posted: 3/21/2013 10:52:20 PM

However if Vipassana works for her,
then it is the path she should continue on with.
Kagyu is not for everyone.


Well that much is true. Kagyu is not for everyone, and while I don't believe the Goenka methods are in fact vipassana, I do think they have some validity at least. In fact in my teacher's response to the question about the Goenka retreats he goes on to say how the method taught there is extremely powerful and very effective for some people, and that if it works it works. I know his attitude is that just about any meditation practice is self correcting in the long run and I think that's right.

I only pointed out what I consider to be a major flaw with it; that tradition does not appear to support a sangha, unless you count the community of teachers which I suspect is what they do. Which would make their sangha a closed door affair as far as ordinary practitioners are concerned. How do you feel about that, as a sangha member yourself?
 martinswain
Joined: 1/29/2013
Msg: 80
Vipassana Meditation
Posted: 3/21/2013 10:54:01 PM

let me give you some hints AGAIN : did you ever learn "LET GO" from Buddhism ??


In Zen we say, "Go away", not "Let Go". What are *you* doing here? You still haven't answered my question. Who is having a hard time letting go here?
 DevilfromToronto
Joined: 9/23/2012
Msg: 81
Vipassana Meditation
Posted: 3/21/2013 11:00:50 PM
^^^^^
I have never claimed I am a Buddhist !! I do what I like/want !!

"Go away" is not the same as "Let Go", "Let Go" is more sensible and has been known to Chinese, even non Buddhists

let me give you some advice (not hint this time) : read a very famous book, one of the 4 famous books in the chinese history, the "Journey To the West", hopefully you may get a tiny bit from Buddhism
 DevilfromToronto
Joined: 9/23/2012
Msg: 82
Vipassana Meditation
Posted: 3/22/2013 12:36:27 AM
I'm far from being a Buddha, that's true, but I am Buddhist.


I think you messed up the word "Buddha" of Buddhism
everyone has their "Buddha", thats their hearts, what you get inside your heart is exactly your Buddha (I guess it may take a long time for you to "digest" my words lol)
Buddhism is basically a "Book" of philosophy, I have never considered Buddhism a religion, the Indian prince wrote this "Book" long long time ago to aim at freeing mankind from unnecessary (mental) pain. Your understanding in this "Book" is more important than following it like a human Xerox.

by the way, I need to be honest and tell you the truth here regarding your knowledge in the China-Tibet-Buddhism-Dalai affairs, you jumped to your own conclusion from the cover of the book !! You will not say the same thing if you can spend a few years to live in China, use your eyes, not your ears to see things lol
 Stray__Cat
Joined: 7/12/2006
Msg: 83
Vipassana Meditation
Posted: 3/22/2013 12:58:31 PM
I think it is very silly to argue over Buddhist stuff Martin.
Geez, if I wanted arguments
I could have joined a mainstream religion.

Buddhism is like a banquet of endless dishes.
Plenty for all.
Too many for any one person to eat
much less digest.

If someone likes squid
while I like tacos...
well.....let em eat squid.

Why say my tacos are better?
Or proclaim my plate is shinier?

If I am getting full....
and he/she is getting full....
why argue?

No need for stress.
There is plenty for all.
No one will do without.
and even better....
No one has to eat the same thing.
(As that would be a very boring meal.)

:-P
 _shakti_
Joined: 7/5/2011
Msg: 84
Vipassana Meditation
Posted: 3/23/2013 1:56:34 PM
Martin:
Wow I'm a little surprised at you.
Because I don't share the same opinion as you.. ?

I'm not slagging Goenka's vipassana teachings, like I said there's no sangha that I can see. That's my personal observation and my opinion, you can take it for what it's worth, i.e. not much.
I didn't think you were 'slagging' on Goenka's style of vipassana, but having done the course, I'm not going to pretend that what you are saying is correct. They DO promote a sangha, and I've already explained that people who have taken the course get together regularly to meditate. That is a sangha, period.

The lineages go back one person at a time all the way to the Buddha. Did you know that?
Is that supposed to sway me? I'm not a Buddhist, and I have no desire to be.

As far as I can tell Lama Ole is the real deal.
Which is your opinion and you are of course entitled to it. I merely shared info to the contrary. It says so on his wikipedia page as well, so it's not exactly a big secret.

As I'd said, I've been around men in a spiritual position of power who have been inappropriate, and it's not something I ever want to experience again, so I do my research. And because of that, I guess I assume other people would want to know certain things about who they are dealing with too. I realize that it can be disheartening, and a shock to the system.. I spent thousands of dollars to learn my lesson, and went through many levels of healing from it. But I still think it's best to know the truth.

I'm not putting down Diamond Way, I'm sure the locals in the group are fantastic, but it offers me nothing. As I said, I have no desire to be a Buddhist.

I'm not impressed with your behaviour here.
For sharing information and discussing my own preferences? Well ok, but it seems a bit over-sensitive (and perhaps parental?) to me. Especially in light of some of your responses to other participants in here.

I didn't start this thread to be a place where people could argue about whose form of Buddhism is superior, and I hope the line of discussion is able to move away from that now.

I genuinely wanted to talk about meditation (which truly has no accompanying religion) with others, it's been great for me to be able to do so. I don't get much of that in real life, which I acknowledge is in large part a choice.. but regardless, it's nice to hear about what others are practicing and just having a place to share on the topic. Thanks to all who have
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