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Show ALL Forums  > Relationships  > Why Does Our Society Look Down On Unemployed Men So Much?      Home login  
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 mrcs84
Joined: 12/9/2008
Msg: 61
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Why Does Our Society Look Down On Unemployed Men So Much?Page 7 of 7    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7)
Firing me because I am single is discrimination

Doesn't matter.



I am absolutely protected against that

No. You. Are. Not.



If you fire me for no reason other then you are bored then you'll have a lawsuit slapped on you and the ex-employee will win.

In at-will states (such as CO), they're going to be wasting a lot of time and effort.


This is coming straight from the Department of Labor & Employment
(emphasis mine)
Definition of Employment-At-Will
Colorado follows the legal doctrine of "employment-at-will" which provides that in the absence of a contract to the contrary, neither an employer nor an employee is required to give notice or advance notice of termination or resignation. Additionally, neither an employer nor an employee is required to give a reason for the separation from employment. In Continental Airlines Inc. v. Keenan (1987), the Colorado Supreme Court recognized at-will employment in Colorado, and noted that there may be certain exceptions to the presumption of at-will employment.


I looked up a few other at-will states, and their verbiage is quite similar. They do state that they protect against certain forms of discrimination, but we all know how hard it is to prove such things in court. The active words are "without reason." It may be 100% true that someone got fired for discriminatory reasons, but the employer is protected from disclosing that.




Because there are a lot more men out there willing to live off of a woman rather than get a job! I know I've experienced it!

Firstly, your personal anecdote doesn't represent the norm. Secondly, it's still baffling that after so many years of the paradigm shifting, that a woman living off her man is still so widely socially accepted but the inverse is looked down upon. Moving at a glacial pace? Indeed we are. But then again, it seems like women like to work just long enough to get their feminist merit badge, and then find a guy that will "rescue" them from having to be self sufficient.
 im_a_rockstar
Joined: 12/29/2011
Msg: 62
Why Does Our Society Look Down On Unemployed Men So Much?
Posted: 10/12/2012 3:52:22 PM

Wrong. They have to have a reason to fire you. It's call the "implied contract" and means that if the employee follows the rules out lined in his handbook and is fired anyway without breaking any of them, he can sue the company because he has an "implied contract" with them that he is NOT in breach of. this is the ENTIRE reason write-ups exist. It's recognized by the law, but the burden of proof lies on the fired employee.


He typically can't. Most jobs include something in there saying that they can go right to termination if they feel it's reasonable. They're also free to fire you just because they feel like it. And their reason for firing you is legally allowed to be "I just felt like doing it."

And on the lay off vs firing... I don't know why you're not getting it yet... They need to layoff, it comes from corporate or something, now, they suddenly have a worker worth being fired, but 5 minutes ago, there were no problems with his performance.... Get it now? THEY'RE MAKING UP A LIE TO FIRE SOMEONE INSTEAD OF LAYING SOMEONE OFF SO THEY DON'T HAVE TO PAY INTO BENEFITS!!!!! This is an INSANELY COMMON practice in business.

And the harassment, no, there really isn't a single law protecting you from it. You can have it on video, with sound, and your manager admits to the judge that he said that to you... And it's still completely legal. If you actually read the federal labor laws, you'd be surprised how little rights you have in the country as a worker. It's legal to harass you that badly that your only choice is to quit, if you don't end up suicidal instead.

And if there's reason to fire, then you don't pay into his unemployment. But when he proves you fired him for a reason that you lied about, then you do. Not every worker is bad, not everyone was fired because they were bad workers.
 im_a_rockstar
Joined: 12/29/2011
Msg: 63
Why Does Our Society Look Down On Unemployed Men So Much?
Posted: 10/12/2012 9:16:35 PM

There you go. They can't just fire you because they are bored or you are wearing the wrong jersey. It's against federal law.


Here's what my job's handbook says about termination:


Termination Policy: If significant improvement has not been demonstrated by the employee after counceling and warnings have been given, employment will be terminated.
Although not limited to these, the following may be grounds for IMMEDIATE TERMINATION:

1. Endangering the life of a patient
2. Abusing a patient
4. Non-Performance of duties.
11. Insubordination to a supervisor
etc...


That's all they had to do. They're free to fire me for whatever reason they want now, long as it's not one of the protected things that fall under harassment or the whistleblower act. I made sure to include #4 and #11 for a really important reason, if I forget to do one thing at work, they can skip right to firing me for it. If I'm a minute late, they can consider that as non-performance of duties, and skip right to firing me... If I stand up to my supervisor who decides to bully me, go against my rights, or tell me to do something that isn't even my job, they can fire me.

You'll find that stuff like that is very common when they give you a handbook... Go read yours, you'll either see something explaining that they can skip right to termination either when they feel it's reasonable, or a list that it specifically says it's not limited to that list, or it points out that you're employed at-will.

Again, you'd be surprised how few rights you have as a worker in this country. A lot of states have had bills just sitting for the last 4-5 years that were intended to expand what harassment and wrongful termination is, but ofc things like Snooki law are more important.

You're at the mercy of your manager. You can be fired because you don't have blond hair and blue eyes, something hitler would kill you over, and there's absolutely nothing you can do about it. Welcome to America.
 LAgoodguy
Joined: 8/21/2008
Msg: 64
Why Does Our Society Look Down On Unemployed Men So Much?
Posted: 10/12/2012 10:13:26 PM
How often you really hear of people getting fired for a job well done??? People get fired for not doing t hings right.
or when you can find a better person to do your job then you do your job.. Yes its about making a profit.. Same thing when someone works at a company learns the trade gets good at it .. Then he finds a better paying job and moves there for more money.. Forgeting that the other company invested time and money into him teaching him the skils and keeping him when he wasnt as skilled at what he does.. Now when there is more demand for his/her skills they leave for more pay...
 im_a_rockstar
Joined: 12/29/2011
Msg: 65
Why Does Our Society Look Down On Unemployed Men So Much?
Posted: 10/13/2012 9:43:53 AM
You're completely wrong. If they do not issue warnings and write you up you have a case.


ONLY, and pay attention to the word ONLY, if your handbook says that the ONLY way they can fire you is after warnings and writeups.

At-will employment means that they legally don't even need to have a reason to fire you. The only time a handbook can save your job is when it acts as a contract that would guarantee your job, meaning it says specifically what you can and can't be fired for, and outlines their termination policy covering every single little detail.

But as long as that handbook says that they can immediately terminate you either for a list that "it's not limited to" or when they see fit, you have no case, PERIOD.

You don't understand at-will employment, you only understand company policy, they're two very different things. At-will employment means that you can be fired at any time without reason, and you can quit at any time without reason.

I really don't understand what is so hard to grasp about this... Go to avvo.com, and ask a lawyer there, and be surprised what the answer is.


Not even a union can protect you from that.

Actually, a union is an employment contract, that typically comes with a rule that you can only be fired with reasonable cause, that very commonly has to go through the union. Funny how we need unions for protection from our managers, the fact that these things exist might be a hint at, "maybe businesses aren't as honest as you thing".

Usually lay-offs are allowed when needed, but termination tends to require specific steps where the union mediates any meetings, and they have to ok whether or not terminating the employee is reasonable.

You seem like you've never worked a union job before.
 im_a_rockstar
Joined: 12/29/2011
Msg: 66
Why Does Our Society Look Down On Unemployed Men So Much?
Posted: 10/13/2012 4:26:23 PM

In sales the customer is always right, even when they are wrong (and whether you like it or not) and you can't talk back to them or argue with them, period. It's common knowledge. I can hear the conversation now.. "but the customer said my skirt was too short and I have a bad attitude." boohoo. (which by the way, is only affirmed by you getting defensive and argumentative with the customer) get over it and grow up.


You haven't had some of my jobs....

While we had the rule that we had to treat the customers with respect and everything, our manager was there for us to tell that person off. Even better, is it really seemed like that helped increase our sales since now they felt bad for how they treated us.

My boss (the store owner) would tell them that we're not going to help them until they apologize for how they were treating us, sale prices were non-negotiable if they insisted on being jerks to us.

It was his money to risk by standing up for us like that, so it was ok for HIM to do it... That was the best manager I've ever had, he was the only one that truly cared for his workers and would actually stand up for them.
 LAgoodguy
Joined: 8/21/2008
Msg: 67
Why Does Our Society Look Down On Unemployed Men So Much?
Posted: 10/13/2012 5:47:58 PM
@prettyin Roses, I have to agree with Confuzzled4ever. Its not up to you to argue with a customer. I always said and still say that customers are mostly not right. But if you do have a customer that give you problems thats when you call the manager. Its up to the manager to handle problem customers. I told plenty of customers to leave my place when I over heard them talk to my employs in the way I didn't like. I didn't need my guys tell me anything. One time I had a new guy start to argue with a customer and he was in the right. I heard how it started, I did ask the customer to leave. Also told my guy to not do that again and just let me know he has wants the customer away from him. I always take care of my people, They are the ones who make me the money. BUT its me who makes the choice they work for ME. I did let go of a guy for not following those exact instruction. Thats why I'm the boss.
PrettyinRoses yes you would have been fired as well. No one needs to deal with your behavior at work. Unless you are the boss or the manager.
 im_a_rockstar
Joined: 12/29/2011
Msg: 68
Why Does Our Society Look Down On Unemployed Men So Much?
Posted: 10/13/2012 6:38:41 PM
I always wondered though, how much different would the world be if the workers did just all fight back. It's not like it's hard to not be a jerk. Except, ofc, there ARE a lot of people who learned if you get mad and start complaining, you get free stuff. Just bought a chicken? Call the company and complain it was too dry (even though it was really the best chicken you've ever had), and you'll get coupons for stuff, a lot of times for something free.

Luckily, as customers, we can help... I don't hesitate to tell the old guy in front of me arguing with the cashier over the price of something when he's wrong: "shut up, you're wrong about the price, pay for your stuff and get out of my way so I can buy my milk and go home". Or yell back at the person yelling that there weren't enough parking spots close to the store.

And some managers will step in for their employees and say what these people need to hear, and even kick them out of the store...

But what if that cashier getting yelled at was allowed to step up? What if when the old guy complains that there's no shopping carts, the worker could just tell him he should have taken one of the ones he parked by, cuz they're just as good as the ones collected and put in front of the store? What if cooks were allowed to say that if you don't like the way they cook their food, then stay home and cook for yourself? What if waiters were allowed to tell someone never to come back because they didn't tip them because the food wasn't done right or took too long, like it was somehow their fault? Or if they were allowed to follow them outside and demand their money for the food that they didn't pay for, since at a lot of places, it comes out of the server's tips when that happens?

I don't think the need to fight back would ever really come up. I think how out of our way we go to avoid offending someone is a big part of the reason that so many people walk all over workers when they go somewhere.

What would working with the public be like if you were allowed to treat them the way they treat you?
 im_a_rockstar
Joined: 12/29/2011
Msg: 69
Why Does Our Society Look Down On Unemployed Men So Much?
Posted: 10/13/2012 9:00:52 PM
but if everyone consistently talked back to them the way they were talking to them, don't you think that might stop them from walking into a store and yelling at everyone, because they don't want to be yelled at themselves?

I'm not talking about one cashier in a store standing up for themselves, I'm talking about if suddenly every single worker in the US started doing that. Would you still have the problems with customers treating people like crap, or would that problem stop? And when it comes to losing business... They can stop going to your food store, and they'll go somewhere else and get the same thing, then probly just end up back at yours cuz of the convenience... You can't boycot every store in the world when you rely on them to buy food so you can eat...

Also, we're kind of the exception of workers not sticking up for themselves. The US is painfully over-obsessed with not offending anyone. Go to another country and walk into a store and start yelling at the cashier about something that he had nothing to do with and see what happens.

Also, customers can cause other customers to go somewhere else too. Where I used to live, there was a RiteAid, and the people shopping there were SLOW. Just getting money out of their wallet and handing it to the cashier took close to a minute. Unloading their shopping cart, because everyone had a shopping cart took a while, because they had to tell the cashier why they're buying it... Know what happened? People started going to Walgreens instead because they were tired of spending so much time in line behind these people. I used to work with one of their cashiers (it was his second job) and we were talking about the people shopping there once. How slow they were was the biggest customer complaint the store was getting, and they were actually losing business over it... BUT, corporate rules, you're not allowed to tell the customers they have to move faster because there's a line behind them.
 im_a_rockstar
Joined: 12/29/2011
Msg: 70
Why Does Our Society Look Down On Unemployed Men So Much?
Posted: 10/13/2012 9:29:00 PM
You assume there's free people to pull away from their jobs to do that. Remember, a person has to physically exist first.

There's only so much a manager can do.

But when Federal law can come to a difference of opinion, I guess it's OK for a manager to higher beyond what corporate allows just to have someone there just in case there's slow customers in the store
 gentleplus
Joined: 9/8/2008
Msg: 71
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Why Does Our Society Look Down On Unemployed Men So Much?
Posted: 10/14/2012 7:07:23 AM
@pretty

Lets turn this around a bit .... you for example are a customer coming to this forum to acquire a product... peace of mind, behavior validation, insight, etc

Many have told you that you are wrong or misguided and the golden rule applies... "the one with the gold makes the rules"

Instead of taking your place in line and going on your way ... you choose to linger and give resistance and pushback... because you want what you want... and only what you want... right now...

This will escalate until you tire of the same answers and leave or there is a conflict and a clash of personalities.... do you see??? .... you are acting in the same way here as a customer who was in your store???

LEARN HOW TO SIDESTEP ISSUES.... and NOT always confront... you are not God... you are not responsible to train every person in the RIGHT ways of life...

If you continue on this life path of conflicts you will always be "less than" your full potential in every possible way

Additionally, you have hijacked this thread about men and relationships into something ALL ABOUT YOU YOU YOU YOU YOU YOU YOU..... get over yourself or stay miserable
 im_a_rockstar
Joined: 12/29/2011
Msg: 72
Why Does Our Society Look Down On Unemployed Men So Much?
Posted: 10/14/2012 7:47:24 AM

It is not their business, their profit or their judgement call to make.


But it's their job, their every day life, their sanity, and in rare cases whether or not they kill themselves.

The LAST thing anyone should be doing to someone who might be depressed and suicidal is telling them how terrible they all are at their job... Such a great way to put them down more.

When the employee isn't allowed to be the one to say something, fine, but that manager needs to be there for them to be the one to do it. Something is VERY wrong in this country when you're expected to deal with abuse every day just to make minimum wage.

And again, if EVERY worker in the country was standing up for themselves, these people would have no choice but to be nicer, because no matter where they go, nobody is going to take their crap
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