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 ladymercury
Joined: 5/25/2011
Msg: 51
AstrologyPage 3 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)
I don't know how much I know about astrology. I read about it, people have talked to me about it, so there has to be some kind of truth about what is going on. No doubt about that.

Unfortunately I can only look up to the sky for so long before I get dizzy. I also have to navigate the land in a linear path so probably will never fully understand whether astrology will or will not help me live to my fullest potential. So far, so good though.

It's fascinating stuff.
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 52
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Astrology
Posted: 1/24/2014 12:04:11 AM

Dude, that's how *ALL* science is worked: you propose a theory about how stuff works, test it to see how valid it is, then go back and fine-tune it once you run across something that doesn't seem to fit (more scientific progress occurs to the words, "What the fvck?!?" than anything else...). It's not *ASTROLOGY'S* fault that we abandoned the science before taking it to its logical conclusion...


What would the logical conclusion be? I would guess that the conclusion would be that astrology is false. I'm not even sure what the premise of astrology is. Do people believe that gravity causes a Taurus to behave like a Taurus? What about the fact that the nonsense written for the signs can apply to anyone?
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 53
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Astrology
Posted: 1/24/2014 1:07:29 PM

One of the big problems with debunkers: they don't even understand what it is, they're debunking. Doesn't stop 'em, or even slow 'em down any.

The "premise" of astrology sure isn't what you read on the funny pages, or in the astrology books that are published yearly, and which garner a small but reliable profit for their writers/publishers. If you believe that astrology is about people, and *ONLY* about telling horoscopes, then it does look pretty dismal, I agree.


So basically, you don't know what it is either. Astrology needs to be defined. How do the position of stars and planets influence your character? I'm fairly certain that they don't, but if someone thinks they do, they need to say why and show evidence. How can you expect anyone to understand what astrology is when every definition is so vague?


Gravity never reaches zero. You learn that in Grade 9 science.


The gravity from the walls in your house would play a bigger role than the gravity from other planets or bodies. Still, we don't know why they're saying that a force like gravity means someone likes to travel or likes to play golf. It sounds like they're just making things up.
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 54
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Astrology
Posted: 1/24/2014 3:06:39 PM

Not sure about planets but there is evidence for the moon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_effect

There are also other massive bodies in space called great attractors. Which pull whole galaxies including ours towards them

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Attractor


It's a fact that the moon affects things like the tide that are physical. There is no evidence, like the link you provided states, that the moon determines how we behave or that being born in a certain month makes you have a different personality than someone born in another month.
Astrology
Posted: 1/24/2014 3:41:42 PM
When an astrologer speaks of the gravity of a planet or our moon, they might not mean the natural law of physics, but instead they might sometimes mean a cultural or psychological gravity.
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 56
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Astrology
Posted: 1/24/2014 7:29:13 PM

When an astrologer speaks of the gravity of a planet or our moon, they might not mean the natural law of physics, but instead they might sometimes mean a cultural or psychological gravity.


They could mean it that way. It's hard to know without a context. It's kind of silly trying to prove or disprove something like astrology. I don't think we'll ever see any evidence of it working. It's just a superstition like a black cat crossing your path or throwing salt over your shoulder.
 rpl55
Joined: 3/22/2009
Msg: 57
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Astrology
Posted: 1/24/2014 7:58:20 PM
There have been many studies showing differences in distribution of mental health issues, particularly schizophrenia, among people based on the season of birth. This links to just one such study. I believe that there are studies that suggest that much more than mental health is affected by season of birth.

http://www.livescience.com/20237-birth-season-mental-disorders.html

RPL
 CynthiaSM
Joined: 2/24/2012
Msg: 58
Astrology
Posted: 1/24/2014 10:01:08 PM
It's a fact that the moon affects things like the tide that are physical.

Funny that you accept the moon can affect water as big as the tides but not water as small as the human body. Or that planets substantially larger than the moon can have any affect on the human body.

There is no evidence, like the link you provided states, that the moon determines how we behave or that being born in a certain month makes you have a different personality than someone born in another month.

Plus, we've had this debate a year or so ago - you confuse cause and effect. The claim is not that 'astrology' (you haven't even defined what you mean by your use of the term astrology) CAUSES behavior. Natal astrology describes behavior and it is more than the sun sign blurbs in the daily newspaper.

But a rational* discussion requires facts and reason so no use trying to have a rational discussion with someone who has zero knowledge of what they're talking about, only relies on ad hominem and hearsay.

*Rational: based on facts or reason and not on emotions or feelings
: having the ability to reason or think about things clearly
- Merriam-webster
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 59
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Astrology
Posted: 1/24/2014 10:16:26 PM

Funny that you accept the moon can affect water as big as the tides but not water as small as the human body. Or that planets substantially larger than the moon can have any affect on the human body.


Other planets do affect the earth like Venus. It can move the tide about 0.005 cm. A planet like Jupiter is so far away that it would have a negligible effect. A vehicle or a building close to you would have more of an affect than other planets. If the moon's gravity was affecting the water in our bodies, scientists could test that theory, and it would be affecting everyone all the time, so it wouldn't really have anything to do with astrology.



Plus, we've had this debate a year or so ago - you confuse cause and effect. The claim is not that 'astrology' (you haven't even defined what you mean by your use of the term astrology) CAUSES behavior. Natal astrology describes behavior and it is more than the sun sign blurbs in the daily newspaper.


It describes behaviour arbitrarily, but it's never been proven to be true. For example, I don't see why someone born in June would be more sensitive because they're a cancer, compared to someone born in another month. Science should be able to prove these claims if they are true.



But a rational* discussion requires facts and reason so no use trying to have a rational discussion with someone who has zero knowledge of what they're talking about, only relies on ad hominem and hearsay.


I don't think you know what ad hominem means. When did I attack someone's character?
Astrology is an umbrella term for the superstition that there is a relationship between humans and astronomical events. Western astrology deals with things like sun signs, moon signs, and horoscopes, so I assume that's what people mean when they say "astrology", unless we're talking about a different tradition. Should I assume that you also have zero knowledge?
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 60
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Astrology
Posted: 1/25/2014 9:32:36 AM

And just how large do you think the average brain cell is? Never mind, I looked it up for you: average brain cell sizes range from 0.004 MILLImetres (0.0004 CENTImetres), to 0.1 millimetre (0.01 centimetre). A movement of the cellular fluid within a cell of 0.005 cm is MASSIVE, and changes the electrical conductivity of the cell enormously. (changing the electrical conductivity of a bunch of brain cells leads to behaviour changes: look up the brain map of a schizophrenic brain vs. a non-schizophrenic brain, for example).


We all experience the effects of gravity on a daily basis. This has nothing to do with astrology though. The gravity from the buildings and objects around you affect you more than weak gravity from other planets.


"Negligible" does not mean "zero". This is some of that sloppy pseudo-science that really ticks me off...


What does this have to do with "sloppy pseudo-science"? Yes, other planets can affect the tide and the orbit of earth. This has nothing to do with horoscopes.


As I've said, skeptics like to make their conclusions, *THEN* find the "facts" to support those conclusions...


That's not a conclusion, it's an observation. If you think astrology is true, then present the evidence. I'm not claiming that any particular system is true. Like usual, you're trying to shift the burden of proof. If astrology was based on something real, you wouldn't need to be a "believer" or "skeptic", it would be part of science.


If science didn't have to go back and explain elementary concepts over and over again, maybe science could make some headway...

I would suggest reading, for example, Dr. Paul LaViolette's "Earth Under Fire", for a *POSSIBLE* alternative explanation of the zodiac (not suggesting that his is the proper interpretation, but at least he doesn't concern himself with the Yorkies yapping at his heels...)


What do you mean science has to explain elementary concepts over and over again? I've never heard of this.
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 61
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Astrology
Posted: 1/25/2014 3:58:04 PM

You're *SURE* of this...


What would gravity have to do with astrology? Astrology is based on 12 signs and the gravity from a planet would be affecting everyone the same way, not 12 different ways. It's up to the astrologer to prove their claim that astrology is a valid system or that gravity plays a role in a person's character. No one else should be asked to prove a negative.


No kiddin'. But, *WHERE* the source of gravity is, is as important as the mass of the gravitating object. Sometimes Venus, for example, is closer to Earth and not behind the Sun; therefore, its gravitic influence is greater...


That's right, that's why Jupiter has little influence on Earth, even though it has a huge mass.


(by the way, I can see the mis-use of "affect" and "effect" is going to come in to play ghere... remember it like this:

"Misusing 'affect' and 'effect' has a negative *EFFECT* on Arlo."; or, "Misusing 'affect' and 'effect' *AFFECTS* Arlo negatively." Thank you all in advance for your consideration...)


It hasn't so far. Why would it now?
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 62
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Posted: 1/26/2014 10:54:10 AM

Since I'm not an astologer, nor do I have any interest in proving that astrology can do what *YOU* claim it claims to be able to do, you haven't got a point here.


I don't claim astrology can do anything. I already said that it's a superstition. Astrology claims that it can predict behaviour based on birth dates.


You may feel very clever slinging around a catch-phrase, but true scientific inquiry is not beholden to slippery semantics.


Proving a negative isn't scientific, it's nonsense. It has nothing to do with "true scientific inquiry".


Quite the slippery little****ns, you are! We were talking about Venus, and you went off about Jupiter. But, no matter...

Yes, Jupiter has very little gravitic influence on Earth. I see how you nicely skated over my mentioning of the size of the average brain cell, and how a liquid movement of 5-one thousandths of a centimetre would have an ENORMOUS effect... is that one of the "negatives" you were talking about?


Do you have any evidence that gravity from other planets can move liquid within the human brain? Do you have any evidence of what types of "ENORMOUS effects" such movement would cause? What does this have to do with proving a negative? I think you're just making things up as you go along. If the moon or other planets like Venus and Jupiter were having an "ENORMOUS" effect on our bodies, we would be able to measure that effect and publish it in a peer reviewed scientific journal. It's extremely easy for science to measure things that have huge effects like the one you're describing. You could provide a link to the scientific journal that demonstrates this effect.


"Very little", by the way, is not the same as "none"... I feel like I already explained this; this is the sort of thing I'm talking about when I say, "has to explain basic scientific principles over and over again"...


I think everyone knows the difference between "very little" and "none". The point is that the earth and every object around you already causes gravity to act on your body. The fact that other planets can add a small amount of gravity to the mix does nothing to prove that it can affect human behaviour or that it does anything to the water in our bodies. You also haven't noticed the difference between humans and the ocean. The ocean is pure water with weaker forces holding it together, while humans have stonger intermolecular bonds. Any such claim that planets affect the water in our bodies and in turn influences behaviour would need to be proved with evidence, not just opinion.
 CynthiaSM
Joined: 2/24/2012
Msg: 63
Astrology
Posted: 1/26/2014 10:58:44 AM


(CW) It's up to the astrologer to prove their claim that astrology is a valid system or that gravity plays a role in a person's character.

Since I'm not an astologer, nor do I have any interest in proving that astrology can do what *YOU* claim it claims to be able to do, you haven't got a point here.

Sorry Arlo but not only has CW not described what 'system' he thinks astrology is, but he has not made any claims of what astrology is able to do, only what 'it' (again, an ambiguous 'it') can NOT do.

He also doesn't understand who has the burden of proof.
Astrology
Posted: 1/26/2014 12:39:14 PM
Are you people for real? No way. You can't be having this conversation with straight faces.
 gedanken
Joined: 9/2/2009
Msg: 65
Astrology
Posted: 1/26/2014 1:32:19 PM
Drink, (shush, don't spoil the fun. SNL only gives us Drunk Uncle about every second week, but on here we get drunk uncle and drunk aunt, daily...)
 63T
Joined: 5/28/2006
Msg: 66
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Posted: 1/26/2014 2:14:49 PM
Well, since I have been rejected, simply because I am a Gemini (born in June), I can attest to it's influential validity and effect, regardless of interpretation or whether or not, there exists any empirical evidence.
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 67
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Astrology
Posted: 1/26/2014 3:29:35 PM

Wrong: some *ASTROLOGERS* claim that this is its purpose.

The validity (or not) of numerology does not impact mathematics.


Right, it has no impact on mathematics. When it comes to astrology, none of what astrologers say has been verified to be true.


Science doesn't "prove" things: it determines probabilities. Understand what science is, and what it does, before you presume to lecture anybody else....


Science proves or disproves a hypothesis. Do you not know this or are you trying to troll and make a joke?


Gravity affects (among other things), water. Human cells contain water. Can you draw the logical conclusion, or do you need me to connect the dots for you?

For what seems like the millionth time: if you're going to insist that the stuff printed in the newspapers is the "real purpose" of astrology, then I can't help you. I've suggested one possible alternate explanation. I can lead you to water, but I can't make you drink...


You still don't understand the difference between a human body and a body of only water with weaker bonds. We're always influenced by gravity, but we can't conclude that gravity from other planets makes us feel certain things unless we do the right research. You'd have to look at how powerful the gravity from other planets compares to objects that are close to you like buildings and cars. I don't see the connection with astrology though, it would be based on astronomy, biology and gravitational forces, not superstition.


Sorry Arlo but not only has CW not described what 'system' he thinks astrology is, but he has not made any claims of what astrology is able to do, only what 'it' (again, an ambiguous 'it') can NOT do.

He also doesn't understand who has the burden of proof.


It doesn't matter which system of astrology we're talking about. None of them have been verified to be true. The burden of proof will always fall upon the person making the claim, not asking people to prove a negative. I've observed that all of them are superstitions and unverified, because that's what they are.
 CynthiaSM
Joined: 2/24/2012
Msg: 68
Astrology
Posted: 1/26/2014 3:33:02 PM
Are you people for real? No way. You can't be having this conversation with straight faces.

I'm not discussing astrology or gravity or tides. I'm not going to participate in a conversation where no one is going to change their mind, or even 'listen' to the other side.

My issue is that the people taking the, allegedly, rational or scientific position are doing anything but. They do not define their terms, present any evidence/authority/support, and have zero direct knowledge of the subject they're saying doesn't exist/has no validity. The totality of their position is 'I've HEARD this is BS', or 'I've been TOLD this is BS', or 'I read the equivalent of a fortune-cookie fortune (i.e. the daily newspaper horoscopes) and if [choose: a) fits everyone, or b) fits no one, or c) didn't fit me] so it must be BS'.

If they had an actual clue about ANY form or school of astrology and find it BS then that's a different story. But, that is not the case. It's almost like they revel in their ignorance ala 'I don't have to know anything to know it's BS'. Isn't that the definition of ignorance? Or stupidity?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying ANYTHING about astrology here. I'm not saying it's valid or BS. I'm pointing out WHY I'm not participating in a conversation about astrology.
Astrology
Posted: 1/26/2014 5:03:58 PM
gedanken - I thought the fun was over in "appearances". Well, 'cept that it has moved since. To here maybe. But it's sure to move again to elsewhere. It's not so boring over in "no time thus no death".
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 70
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Posted: 1/26/2014 5:05:42 PM

If they had an actual clue about ANY form or school of astrology and find it BS then that's a different story. But, that is not the case. It's almost like they revel in their ignorance ala 'I don't have to know anything to know it's BS'. Isn't that the definition of ignorance? Or stupidity?


You don't know the people participating in this conversation on a personal level. You have no idea what their knowledge is. You've made unsupported claims by saying that people you don't know have no knowledge about the subject. You're literally just guessing and making things up. I've seen this before though. I remember a psychic telling James Randi that he had no "occult credentials". Either way, it doesn't matter what a person knows about a given system of superstitions. Either it's true or it's not. It's actually a bit ironic coming from someone that claimed other people were using "ad hominem" attacks because all you've done is talked about the people without even addressing the subject.
 CynthiaSM
Joined: 2/24/2012
Msg: 71
Astrology
Posted: 1/26/2014 9:09:28 PM
You don't know the people participating in this conversation on a personal level. You have no idea what their knowledge is.

The first correct thing you've said in this entire thread. I've made an informed assumption based on the fact that you've been asked, repeatedly, to provide any foundation for your position. To provide any indication that you have a clue what you're talking about. That you even have a working definition of "astrology" that you're debunking.

But, like you say, I shouldn't have to prove a negative. I shouldn't have to prove you know nothing.

I remember a psychic telling James Randi that he had no "occult credentials".

Nope, not analogous. I'm not saying you have to be an astrologer, I'm saying that you need to know enough about the subject to at least define what astrology is, and then provide some evidence that what you have defined as astrology is bunk. Your boy Randi is not a psychic but he at least studies psychics (who they are, what they do, and how they do it) enough to be able to debunk them. He doesn't just flap his arms crying they're fakes.

Either way, it doesn't matter what a person knows about a given system of superstitions.

Like you did right there.

Either it's true or it's not.

You mean like your claim there are only 5 senses? Please don't make me spank you again.
 Coma_White
Joined: 9/15/2013
Msg: 72
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Astrology
Posted: 1/27/2014 12:12:13 AM

The first correct thing you've said in this entire thread. I've made an informed assumption based on the fact that you've been asked, repeatedly, to provide any foundation for your position. To provide any indication that you have a clue what you're talking about. That you even have a working definition of "astrology" that you're debunking.

But, like you say, I shouldn't have to prove a negative. I shouldn't have to prove you know nothing.


I don't believe that any of the astrological systems can do what they say they can do. For example, assigning people a sun sign in western astrology, or making predictions about their life based on a natal chart. I'm more familiar with western and horoscopic astrology, as most people from North America are, so the discussion can be based on that.


Nope, not analogous. I'm not saying you have to be an astrologer, I'm saying that you need to know enough about the subject to at least define what astrology is, and then provide some evidence that what you have defined as astrology is bunk. Your boy Randi is not a psychic but he at least studies psychics (who they are, what they do, and how they do it) enough to be able to debunk them. He doesn't just flap his arms crying they're fakes.


You don't need evidence to demonstrate astrology is bunk because there is no evidence that it's true. The debunking process usually includes testing the system to see if it can do what it claims to be able to do. Even if you didn't debunk it, it still doesn't have a default position of being true because there isn't any evidence that demonstrates it's anything more than a superstition. Western astrology is built on the false premise that the alignment celestial bodies at the time or your birth determine characteristics of your personality and what type of people you should interact with. They don't even account for the fact that you're alive nine months before you're born. As mentioned before, the sun signs don't line up properly anymore. If I got a chart done, they would say I'm a cancer, when I'm actually supposed to be a gemini now. They are all shifted over by one, but they still stick to their outdated system.


You mean like your claim there are only 5 senses? Please don't make me spank you again.


Thread just got creepy.
You don't have to claim there are only 5 senses. That's like claiming there is only one moon that orbits the Earth. Unless you're talking about things like proprioception, senses are counted by sensory organs. What other types of senses are we supposed to have?
Astrology
Posted: 1/27/2014 3:49:25 AM
CynthiaSM: Can you give us an idea of what astrology really is, versus the common perception?

More than 5 senses? Maybe something like Kevin Bacon's Stir of Echoes is what some have in mind. On the one hand, I don't buy into it, but on the other hand, there are things I still wonder about...like how every once in a while I myself will have a "dream" that just doesn't at all seem like the type of thing that my brain would concoct through unconscious "defraging" sessions or jumbles of thought, or interpretations of random associations.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 74
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Astrology
Posted: 1/27/2014 4:36:22 AM

That's like claiming there is only one moon that orbits the Earth.


Careful. There is more than one moon orbiting the Earth. Only one that's really big, and influences the tides, but more than one altogether.
 CynthiaSM
Joined: 2/24/2012
Msg: 75
Astrology
Posted: 1/27/2014 9:29:13 AM

I don't believe that any of the astrological systems can do what they say they can do. For example, assigning people a sun sign in western astrology, or making predictions about their life based on a natal chart. I'm more familiar with western and horoscopic astrology, as most people from North America are, so the discussion can be based on that.

Really? You're MORE familiar with a system of astrology that doesn't exist by that name or anything close to it? Saying "western astrology" is like saying the 'North America' - again demonstrating total lack of knowledge what you're saying. Maybe try a google or two before you post again.



You mean like your claim there are only 5 senses? Please don't make me spank you again.

Thread just got creepy.
You don't have to claim there are only 5 senses. That's like claiming there is only one moon that orbits the Earth. Unless you're talking about things like proprioception, senses are counted by sensory organs. What other types of senses are we supposed to have?


We've had, essentially, this same conversation before which is why I will not get into a substantive discussion with you.
See generally pages 9 & 10: http://forums.plentyoffish.com/8446739datingPostpage10.aspx
See specifically posts 223, 230, 237 & 240.
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