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 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 27
Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Government abstained from votingPage 4 of 3    (1, 2, 3)

The countries that voted against this meaningless resolution should be proud and I hope they're rewarded for it.

How will they be "rewarded"..?
And by whom...?

Aha. There's a difference between inventing something, then separately using it for some grotesque person.

I have no idea what this means. Is it an Alan Partridge quote..?

I'm sick of people blaming the West for why other people act like barbarians.

About 50 million people died in WWII, pretty much all of them, "Westerners" (Not cowboys, obviously).
And some pretty barbaric acts were committed, all by westerners.
It seems you believe the spin.

All countries have used "suicide missions" during wars, including this country.
I agree with Indigo, there is nothing 'civilised' about wars.

I hope the UN eventually give Palestine a full National Status.
This is a small, but significant first step.
 gurufabbes
Joined: 9/22/2010
Msg: 28
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History
Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Government abstained from voting
Posted: 12/11/2012 11:30:59 AM

And some pretty barbaric acts were committed, all by westerners.
It seems you believe the spin.


I'm not sure if you're deliberately misreading what I wrote, or genuinely have trouble following it:

When Westerners do it, they should have responsibility for what they do. When other nations, 3rd world nations, use their wealth to purchase their weapons and machete or execute their neighbour, the responsibility should be on them.


How will they be "rewarded"..?
And by whom...?


By Canada, US, Israel, Czech Republic... and most of all by the history books.


I have no idea what this means. Is it an Alan Partridge quote..?


Was that an attempt at wit?
The original quote was "There's a difference between inventing something, then separately using it for some grotesque person."

If you want an example: Let's then underline the point with the difference between Albert Einstein and many other pioneers in nuclear research, and the individuals that decided the best way to use this knowledge was to build a bomb with it.

In the context of the Middle East, perhaps the only Palestinian invention (apart from of course their unprecedented re-invention of themselves from East Jordanians to 'Palestinians' in the last 40 years) has been the introduction of bomb-strapped madmen self-destructing themselves in name of Allah, killing as many innocent civilians with them as possible. I think the inventor of dynamite even, could not have foreseen this, even the inventors of the modern day bombs which they buy and use.


I hope the UN eventually give Palestine a full National Status.
This is a small, but significant first step.


Yes, because we all know that the world needs another failed state.
 gurufabbes
Joined: 9/22/2010
Msg: 30
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History
Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Government abstained from voting
Posted: 12/11/2012 11:42:52 AM

Not much difference between Zionists and Nazis.


What you've written is bullocks. Sorry.

I suggest you read up on the history more, and not just from the most anti-Israel sources that you can find.
 gurufabbes
Joined: 9/22/2010
Msg: 32
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History
Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Government abstained from voting
Posted: 12/11/2012 12:29:39 PM
I'm not in the mood to replay the entire history of the Middle East.

The Palestinians, the Arabs, and probably in response, the Israelis, are violent, aggressive people.

If you wish to look upon the 'poor Palestinians' as the oppressed, who are only seekers of peace, then I suggest you look at their history.
In essence, it's only in the last 20 years that the wider conflict of Israel vs. the Arabs, has been downsized to a mini-conflict of Israel vs. the 'oppressed Palestinians'.
The Arabs and the Palestinians would like nothing better than for Israel to disappear(1948, 1967, 1973 to start with) , and have done their utmost to make that a reality. The very conflict even starts with a peace agreement rejected ONLY by the Arabs, and a subsequent invasion with 5 Arab armies. I see this cycle as repeated over and over again.

Then, as soon as they lose every single one of the aggressive conflicts that they themselves start, shout 'oppression', with then, every far left-wing moron and anti-Semitic fanatic to be there to cheer them on.

Perhaps anything will do for you. It won't for me. The PLO and Hamas are not the ANC, they are not Gandhi's INC and to even mention them in the same sentence cheapens their struggles.
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 34
Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Government abstained from voting
Posted: 12/11/2012 12:47:59 PM
If you wish to look upon the 'poor Palestinians' as the oppressed, who are only seekers of peace, then I suggest you look at their history.
In essence, it's only in the last 20 years that the wider conflict of Israel vs. the Arabs, has been downsized to a mini-conflict of Israel vs. the 'oppressed Palestinians'.
The Arabs (1948, 1967, 1973 to start with) and the Palestinians would like nothing better than for Israel to disappear, and have done their utmost to make that a reality. The ery conflict even starts with a peace agreement rejected ONLY by the Arabs, and a subsequent invasion with 5 Arab armies. I see this cycle as repeated over and over again.

Then, as soon as they lose every single one of the aggressive conflicts that they themselves start, shout 'oppression', with then, every left-wing moron and anti-Semitic fanatic to be there to cheer them on.

Yes, that's the version which most people still believe.
To my shame, it's probably the version I believed, until I researched it in about 1990.

Read the history here, written by "Jews Against the Occupation" (JATO)
(I think it's an unbiased version, because of that)
http://ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html

Perhaps you think every religion should be "given" it's own country.>?
Jordan for the Jehova's Witnesses,
Mozambique for the Moonies..?
Sweden for the Scientologists..?

The real problem is that fewer and fewer people are believing in old folk-lore myths, and religions.
Israel was founded on a mistake.
Eventually, history will record that.


Edit:
(Editing's tricky, isn't it..? )

I don't think you know much about Jews or Judaism if you think that those comparisons are valid.
Jews are, and have always been, a nation, a people with their own distinct identity. Not simply a religion.


No-one is and "always has been, a people", or a "race".
Much less the "jews", who only "count" half of the genetic contribution.

Genetically, as Finbar points out, they share the same gene-pool as the Palestinians, though that has obviously been added to by whatever genes were accumulated during the alleged "diaspora".
 gurufabbes
Joined: 9/22/2010
Msg: 35
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History
Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Government abstained from voting
Posted: 12/11/2012 12:54:43 PM
Are you a caricature?




good little goy that you are. Try not to choke on a bagel!


I think this comment indicates which of both categories you belong to.





Anti-Semetic? The usual lie peddled by Zionists morons. The Palestinians are a Semetic people!


To add again to the constant discussion I have with caricatures, Anti-Semitism in every dictionary since the beginning of time means a hatred, dislike of Jewish people.

A pseudo-intellectual sickness that unfortunately, you suffer from as well.

People that disagree and criticize Israel are not all anti-Semites, but you sir, are.

Now that I've done with you.



Jo van:



Yes, that's the version which most people still believe.
To my shame, it's probably the version I believed, until I researched it in about 1990.


That is however the history. It's one version of it, but the facts are there. It's war, war war and more war.




Perhaps you think every religion should be "given" it's own country.>?
Jordan for the Jehova's Witnesses,
Mozambique for the Moonies..?
Sweden for the Scientologists..?


I don't think you know much about Jews or Judaism if you think that those comparisons are valid.
Jews are, and have always been, a nation, a people with their own distinct identity. Not simply a religion.





Israel was founded on a mistake.
Eventually, history will record that.


National determination is not a mistake. It's the right of every people in the world, including the Palestinians.
 gurufabbes
Joined: 9/22/2010
Msg: 37
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History
Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Government abstained from voting
Posted: 12/11/2012 1:48:44 PM
Yes, my 'editing' however to correct spacing and typos, as well as to get this bad 'quote' system to work is sort of irrelevant.


No-one is and "always has been, a people", or a "race".
Much less the "jews", who only "count" half of the genetic contribution."


The Jewish people I speak of, in the same way as I speak of French and German or Polish people.
Nevertheless, if you wish to speak 'race', genetic tests among the Jewish communities the world over show that Jews are more related to themselves then to their neighbours, this includes of course tests on the people's that they used to reside with.
That there is a difference in Jews in terms of their DNA is clear, and it cannot be otherwise in a people where Jewish status is handed down via matrilineal descent, tribal distinctions such as with people are Cohens or Levis, go down through patrilineal descent. Equally tests among people that are Cohens show a common genetic ancestor, aeons ago.

The facts are there, in both Judaism, Jewish culture and in studies done.


Genetically, as Finbar points out, they share the same gene-pool as the Palestinians, though that has obviously been added to by whatever genes were accumulated during the alleged "diaspora"."


Please don't bother with quoting Shlomo Sand. He's one opinion, and indeed one among many.
People usually quote him because of his political views and political implications that his views imply.
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 38
Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Government abstained from voting
Posted: 12/11/2012 2:07:47 PM
I'm afraid I have a somewhat minority view on "race" and "nationality", and both have had chronologically 'elastic' borders.
Despite spending many millions trying to establish a clear genetic identity, the truth is that genetically alleged "jews" have an even broader range of alleles, haplogroups, clines, clades, clusters, and phenotype variations than almost any other alleged "race".
-Which is what you'd expect, as only the female contribution confers "jewishness", and they have lived all over the world.
There are "black" jews, and there are blue-eyed, fair-haired ones, from northern Europe.
"Jews" are the best example there is, of the folly of "racial" classifications.
Which is why it's all the more surprising they should put such great store on this.
It's all the more surprising that they herd the Palestinians into walled 'ghettos', based on "racial" ethnicity.

Of course the Palestinians are pissed-off, they were asked, they said no, but the British and Americans, and French all pushed ahead with the project to create a "jewish" state, in their midst, against their wishes.

Forget your bias,
Read the history, as detailed by "jews" on the link I gave.
I have absolutely no idea who Shlomo Whatsisface is.
 gurufabbes
Joined: 9/22/2010
Msg: 39
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History
Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Government abstained from voting
Posted: 12/11/2012 2:18:55 PM

Forget your bias,


Change starts at home.


There are "black" jews, and there are blue-eyed, fair-haired ones, from northern Europe.
"Jews" are the best example there is, of the folly of "racial" classifications.


Not at all, they're the best examples of it.
The "Black Jews" are the exception to what I described as their community, the Ethiopian community, are largely converts from local Ethiopian tribes a while ago.

It's not enough to say, well there are some blond haired Jews and some black Jews, therefore there is no Jewish race. There very simply is, and the myriad of genetic evidence stands testament to it.
I can't MAKE you see, I can only tell you that if you look it up, you'll find it.

Anyway, that is for the racial component.
As for the actual component of having a distinct cultural identity and considering themselves a nation for the entire time of the Diaspora, that is something that requires researching Judaism. I can't MAKE you do that either.


Of course the Palestinians are pissed-off, they were asked, they said no, but the British and Americans, and French all pushed ahead with the project to create a "jewish" state, in their midst, against their wishes.


There were no 'Palestinians' at that point, and the decision was largely made by an Arab block.

It was more than just the British, Americans or the French. You can check the vote on the UN partition plan to see.
It was a decision endorsed by the UN and would have brought peace. Given, that I assume you are a believer in the UN and that its resolutions should have some sort of validity, perhaps you should keep that in mind, rather than looking for every loophole possible to defend the indefensible, just because you have a soft spot for the Palestinian cause.
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 41
Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Government abstained from voting
Posted: 12/11/2012 2:37:41 PM

It's not enough to say, well there are some blond haired Jews and some black Jews, therefore there is no Jewish race. There very simply is, and the myriad of genetic evidence stands testament to it.
I can't MAKE you see, I can only tell you that if you look it up, you'll find it.

It's not a "race", it's a religion. That's why so much variation exists.
I have looked into it, in some depth.

I don't believe in the bible, the tora, or the q'uoran, all three religions share a belief in the old testament.
Primitive superstitious beliefs, written by people who knew no better.
There is no magic.


There were no 'Palestinians' at that point, and the decision was largely made by an Arab block.

Until 1948, there was no such country as Israel.

It was more than just the British, Americans or the French. You can check the vote on the UN partition plan to see.
It was a decision endorsed by the UN and would have brought peace.

I'm well aware of the history, and the reasoning behind the UN's recognition.
Most of the world was feeling so sorry, and guilty, for what had happened to them, and the sheer scale of it, that we'd have probably given them Belgium, if they'd asked for it.
Belief in religions was still very much the 'norm'.

Given, that I assume you are a believer in the UN and that its resolutions should have some sort of validity, perhaps you should keep that in mind, rather than looking for every loophole possible to defend the indefensible, just because you have a soft spot for the Palestinian cause.

Israel has ignored the UN., that is indefensible, as is their position.
Particularly as more and more people become aware of the history.

So for now, they have observer status.
Next, full nationhood.

I think the religious extremists on both sides are wrong BTW.
As I said in an earlier post, we'd stand a far better chance of peace, without religious nutters stirring-up trouble.
I've just heard on the TV., that 25% of people in this country, now describe themselves as "No religion".
That gives me great hope.
JMO
 gurufabbes
Joined: 9/22/2010
Msg: 42
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History
Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Government abstained from voting
Posted: 12/11/2012 2:37:58 PM
Israel’s attempt to lobby the Western governments to vote “No” or in the very least abstain from voting if they can’t bring themselves to vote in its favour so that it can claim moral high ground by saying only despot led countries voted “Yes”. What did the result show? 138(yes) Vs 9(no, including some pacific island-nations)."


After getting past that countries like Spain and France voted in favour of the resolution...
Anything can pass at the UN General Assembly, here the majority is made up of Arab states clearly in an anti-Israel bloc, and other allies such as tin-pot dictatorships, theocracies and other corrupt 3rd world members of the Non-Aligned movement who think that they're sill waging a colonial struggle.

In the words of Abba Eban: "If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions."



However, whenever Palestinians try to pursue a diplomatic route they get blackmailed. Ever wondered why more often we hear about aid-cuts, sanctions and withholding of Tax (collected on behalf of the Palestinians) happens every time the Palestinians seek a peaceful route


In essence, going to the UN was apart of the PA's blackmail against Israel, because it knew very well it would pass.
Why is the PA having the UN General Assembly decide about a matter that needs to be resolved by negotiations?

It is the Palestinian side, not the Israeli side that is refusing to return to the negociation table, and instead has tried to bring other means into it: Hamas, with its rocket attacks, and the PA by unilateral moves at the UN.

If there is a solution, it can't be resolved by marginalizing Israel at the UN and avoiding talks.




JMO:



It's not a "race", it's a religion. That's why so much variation exists.


It helps to know a bit about Judaism before 'deciding' what it is. It is neither entirely but has elements of religion, race, culture and national identity.
It's complicated thing to define Judaism, but simplifying it to meet your opinion is not going to get you anywhere.

A Jewish identity may have had its roots in a religion at one point (2000 or 2500+ years ago), but it is far beyond that point now.


I don't believe in the bible, the tora, or the q'uoran, all three religions share a belief in the old testament.
Primitive superstitious beliefs, written by people who knew no better.
There is no magic.


I didn't ask what you believed and none of my arguments rely on 'magic' or 'superstition'.


Until 1948, there was no such country as Israel.


While the modern state of Israel did not exist, a Jewish people did, and history shows that every single independent sovereign state on that very land has been Jewish throughout history.


Israel has ignored the UN., that is indefensible, as is their position.
Particularly as more and more people become aware of the history.


Just as the Arab side has ignored the UN since its very beginning. A law is only good when both people hold by it.


So for now, they have observer status.
Next, full nationhood.


That's up to their leadership and to their negociation with Israel. I'm indifferent towards it.



As I said in an earlier post, we'd stand a far better chance of peace, without religious nutters stirring-up trouble.


I agree, and have seen first hand how they make the conflict worse.
 gurufabbes
Joined: 9/22/2010
Msg: 44
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History
Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Government abstained from voting
Posted: 12/11/2012 3:08:20 PM

why do hundreds of thousands of Israelis protest for a two state solution?


Apart from saying "Well, if people protest about something, it must be right", I'll point to my comment that the Palestinians have a right to self-determination.
It doesn't however that from the fact that such a state or national identity has never before existed and is in a sense a continuation of the claims of the Arab cause on the land. It's a myth that the Palestinians are an age-old people who have been trying to create their own state there for aeons.
Had Israel not been established, the land would have been apart of Jordan, as it was between 1948 and 1967, without a peep from the modern day 'Palestinians'.
Sometimes the truth hurts.


Finbarr asked you a question regarding Zionists and Nazis. Apart from the usual buried bits like the Haavara Agreement, and those Zionists that helped fund Hitlers rise to power, perhaps you know of the collaboration between the Zionists and the Nazis concerning Palestine?


I don't think wasting my time with close-minded racist bigots is worth it. But since that you brought it up:
The 'collaboration' was an attempt by one arm of the Irgun to present a plan by which all Jews in Europe would be moved to Palestine, which would then become a fascist satellite. The Nazis never answered it, and the people involved lost their credibility and support because of it. In retrospect, perhaps that plan would have saved millions of Jews from extermination. Who knows.

The Nazis were prime opponents of Zionism (you can see in mouthpieces such as 'Der Stuermer') and supported Arab movements against it. The pictures of Hitler with Jerusalem Grand Mufti will not just 'fade away'.

I hate when people bring up half-truths.
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 46
Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Government abstained from voting
Posted: 12/11/2012 3:20:10 PM

It helps to know a bit about Judaism before 'deciding' what it is. It is neither entirely but has elements of religion, race, culture and national identity.
It's complicated thing to define Judaism, but simplifying it to meet your opinion is not going to get you anywhere.

It's a belief.
there is no scientific basis to it.
The truth will always come out. (Especially now, in this "the information age")


I didn't ask what you believed and none of my arguments rely on 'magic' or 'superstition'.

" It is neither entirely but has elements of religion, race, culture and national identity."
-Sounds like magic to me.


While the modern state of Israel did not exist, a Jewish people did, and history shows that every single independent sovereign state on that very land has been Jewish throughout history.

You're obviously well-practised in this argument, and seem to trot-out the same stock "facts".

There were no negotiations, when those early Israelis bulldozed 136 (?) villages in 1948, and created some 700,000 refugees and 'displaced persons'. And in some cases, massacred entire villages.

The Israeli State was forced upon the inhabitants, with tanks, and guns, and then followed some 3.5 million more immigrants, all of whom were given land, stolen from the Palestinians.

You've seen how shitty people here get, about a tiny fraction of the population being immigrants, now the Palestinians constitute less than 20% of the population, in their own country, and are treated abysmally, for failing to welcome them with open arms.

I don't doubt that people sincerely believe themselves to be Isrealis, and/or "jews", it's just that they're wrong.

As I said in an earlier post, I have a belief in the inevitability of truth, as verified by science.

the Israelis will always lose, in the long-term, because this was unjust, and ill-founded, and untrue.
That truth will eventually emerge, there's no way to suppress it.

I hope they realise that, before the entire rest of the world does.
 gurufabbes
Joined: 9/22/2010
Msg: 47
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History
Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Government abstained from voting
Posted: 12/11/2012 3:36:06 PM

It's a belief.
there is no scientific basis to it.
The truth will always come out.


Jewish identity is not 'belief' anymore than any other national identity is 'belief'. It's a fallacy to compare 'Jewish' to 'Christian' or 'Muslim' in terms of identity. It aint it.


-Sounds like magic to me.


The politics and philosophy of identity are complicated and there have been many books written about them.
The ultimate point, where I believe you will not disagree, is that Jews consider themselves as a Jewish people, and that this identity has been around for thousands of years. It was one of the reasons why the 'Jewish question' was a big debate in Europe throughout the 18th, 19th and 20th century.


There were no negotiations, when those early Israelis bulldozed 136 (?) villages in 1948, and created some 700,000 refugees and 'displaced persons'. And in some cases, massacred entire villages.


Damn right there wasn't. The Arabs and their 5 Arab armies were in no mood for negociation.
It was war: Demonizing one side in war and simplifying the facts is always problematic. I disagree with what you're saying entirely. The only thing that comes close to 'massacring an entire village' is the what happened at Deir Yassin, and there it's a bit more complicated, and anyhow was done by the Irgun, a then opponent of the modern day Israeli Defense Forces.

There are entire branches of academics, especially in Israel, which deal with the conflict: It's not as simple as saying that the Palestinians left voluntarily, or to say they were all driven out by force.
Either way, rioting and Jewish communities being massacred by the Arabs throughout the 1920s and 30s show that it's incorrect to blame one side for the violence.


now the Palestinians constitute less than 20% of the population, in their own country


This is your problem: You're amalgamating. Are you referring to Arab Israelis living in Israel or Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza? The situations are different.

Elsewhere, they make up much more than 20%.

At the end of the day we end up with the same question:
Why can Jews not have one tiny strip of land (even smaller back in 1948 under the UN plan), surrounding by 22 (23) other Arab states?
Why couldn't the Arabs just accept that?
This ultimate question should underline who the aggressors are, and I don't think for a second, that it's the Israelis.
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 48
Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Government abstained from voting
Posted: 12/11/2012 3:58:39 PM

At the end of the day we end up with the same question:
Why can Jews not have one tiny strip of land (even smaller back in 1948 under the UN plan), surrounding by 22 (23) other Arab states?
Why couldn't the Arabs just accept that?

They were asked, they said no. It's their land.
Why couldn't the "Jews" who wanted their own state, accept that.?
But no, religious people insisted.
(I have reversed the order of your quotes, because of this chronology)


Either way, rioting and Jewish communities being massacred by the Arabs throughout the 1920s and 30s show that it's incorrect to blame one side for the violence.

The "Balfour declaration" was an outright renege on promises made by "Lawrence of Arabia", when he persuaded the tribes to help defeat the Ottomans.
The arabs didn't want it, but still the immigrants came.
Don't forget that there was no mention of "zionism" or the establishment of a "jewish stste", until the mid-nineteenth century.
You are being disingenuous in your chronology, about "who started this".
The arabs were fully entitled to say no. It was only the colonial mindset of the British, at the time, which encouraged the jews to press ahead regardless of the opposition.
They felt they could handle it, just like they thought they could handle India.
"The natives will do as we say"......
And here we are, 60 years later.

This ultimate question should underline who the aggressors are, and I don't think for a second, that it's the Israelis.

Read the history.
It's obvious who started this, and who are to blame.
http://ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html

A growing number of jews are disassociating themselves from Israel's shameful history.
 gurufabbes
Joined: 9/22/2010
Msg: 49
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History
Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Government abstained from voting
Posted: 12/11/2012 4:15:38 PM
Please don't try and cherry pick one example to make a counter-argument and then get even that wrong.

Well don't do it then.


If you remember your original comment, which suggested "collaboration" ('co' means both sides being involved) of the Zionists with the Nazis, it has ended up being cut down to, one group, the Irgun/Stern Gang, who if you remember history, were not mainstream. Furthermore the Nazis wanted nothing to do with them. Even more, shortly after the war, the Hagana sank one of their weapons ships, killing some of their members and disbanding the rest.SO WHAT IS YOUR POINT LEFT WITH?

I'm sick of the stupid amalgamation and 'guilt by association' game. What you said clearly wasn't correct, so just admit it, rather than, like a spoilt child, concentrating on some tiny disputable inaccuracies in my answer.


JMO:


They were asked, they said no. It's their land.
Why couldn't the "Jews" who wanted their own state, accept that.?
But no, religious people insisted.


What the hell are you talking about? The founders of Israel were not religious people, and the religious had no role in these decisions.

In terms of who was in charge it was the Ottomans, and afterwards the British.

Because Jews owned their parts of the land, the Arabs owned theirs. Both couldn't stand each other and that point and had already come to blows. The UN decided that would be the workable solution.

The White Paper agreement in turn reneged on the Balfour Declaration. The British increasingly screwed over everyone, before giving up and handing it to the UN.


The arabs were fully entitled to say no.


Yes, they were, just as letting the natural 'law of the jungle' prevail. Their rejection wasn't simply a passive one, but one followed up on by 5 Arab armies invading the territory.
They lost. It is only in this situation seemingly, where, a side chooses violence over peace, then gets its ass kicked, and still feels like things should be the same as before.

The 'law of the jungle' applies to both sides.

Lawrence of Arabia incidentally was pro-Zionist.



Read the history.
It's obvious who started this, and who are to blame.
http://ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html


I think the maturity of your arguments need to progress beyond "Read he history", then posting some further biased source.
I know the history, I just disagree with you and think that I'm right.


A growing number of jews are disassociating themselves from Israel's shameful history.


As an even greater number are joining the ranks of its supporters. Don't bother playing that game either.
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 51
Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Government abstained from voting
Posted: 12/11/2012 4:43:53 PM

What the hell are you talking about? The founders of Israel were not religious people, and the religious had no role in these decisions.

Yeah, blah blah blah... secular jews... blah blah.
It's an oxymoron of the highest order, and truly laughable!

Yes, they were, just as letting the natural 'law of the jungle' prevail. Their rejection wasn't simply a passive one, but one followed up on by 5 Arab armies invading the territory.

You forgot the word "occupied" territories.
The Jews had been told no, but still they went ahead.
Why should the arabs be "passive"..?
Their country was being stolen.

They lost. It is only in this situation seemingly, where, a side chooses violence over peace, then gets its ass kicked, and still feels like things should be the same as before.

The 'law of the jungle' applies to both sides.

I see. So "might is right"..?
This illustrates the attitude of the zionists perfectly.
Israelis and jews aren't the "victims", not any more, you should stop playing it, it's truly pathetic.
Like I said, the truth will always come out.

I think the maturity of your arguments need to progress beyond "Read he history", then posting some further biased source.

How can it be "biased", when it's written entirely by self-proclaimed "jews"..? (Which is all any of them are)


As an even greater number are joining the ranks of its supporters. Don't bother playing that game either.

Israel is losing this argument, hence the UN's recognition of Palestine.
It's only a matter of time now.....

 gurufabbes
Joined: 9/22/2010
Msg: 52
view profile
History
Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Government abstained from voting
Posted: 12/11/2012 5:10:15 PM
It's an oxymoron of the highest order, and truly laughable


It's an oxymoron to people that still think Judaism is just a religion, yeah.


You forgot the word "occupied" territories.


The goal of the Arab armies was to completely wipe out the new Jewish state. According to them in 1948, and many even nowadays: ALL of Israel is occupied territory.


Their country was being stolen.


It wasn't just their country.
This is the problem, you concentrate on the rights of the Arabs while delegitimizing the Jews.


I see. So "might is right"..?

Seemingly that's the way the Arabs saw it.


This illustrates the attitude of the zionists perfectly.
Israelis and jews aren't the "victims", not any more, you should stop playing it, it's truly pathetic.
Like I said, the truth will always come out.


The only side playing the victims, but using violence over and over again has been the Arab side, so don't bother.


Israel is losing this argument, hence the UN's recognition of Palestine.


Anything can pass at the UN General Assembly, here the majority is made up of Arab states clearly in an anti-Israel bloc, and other allies such as tin-pot dictatorships, theocracies and other corrupt 3rd world members of the Non-Aligned movement who think that they're sill waging a colonial struggle.

In the words of Abba Eban: "If Algeria introduced a resolution declaring that the earth was flat and that Israel had flattened it, it would pass by a vote of 164 to 13 with 26 abstentions."

A meaningless vote at the UN (the same one which equated 'Zionism with Racism' in the 1970s, then rescinded it later) means nothing. Truth is something intrinsic, it's not established by consensus.

One of the reasons why the anti-Israel side is often so bitter and angry is the very fact of the weakness and mediocrity of their cause. Where essentially the argument has to come from a position of perceived victimhood.


How can it be "biased", when it's written entirely by self-proclaimed "jews"..? (Which is all any of them are)


How do you square this with your view that 'secular Jew' is an oxymoron?
You can't.

Either way, just because a Jew says something about Israel, doesn't make it true either.
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 53
Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Government abstained from voting
Posted: 12/12/2012 4:36:26 AM

It wasn't just their country.
This is the problem, you concentrate on the rights of the Arabs while delegitimizing the Jews.

That's because, with hindsight, there was no "legitimacy".
They might have existed there, as a 'tribe', some 3,000 years ago (albeit briefly), but "god" didn't "give them the land". (Because "god" is a primitive superstition, and doesn't really exist!)


The only side playing the victims, but using violence over and over again has been the Arab side, so don't bother.



“In 1936-9, the Palestinian Arabs attempted a nationalist revolt... David Ben-Gurion, eminently a realist, recognized its nature. In internal discussion, he noted that ‘in our political argument abroad, we minimize Arab opposition to us,’ but he urged, ‘let us not ignore the truth among ourselves.’ The truth was that ‘politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country, while we are still outside’... The revolt was crushed by the British, with considerable brutality.”
~ Noam Chomsky, “The Fateful Triangle.”

The truth is out there.
It's too late.

How do you square this with your view that 'secular Jew' is an oxymoron?
You can't.

Secularity (adjective form secular,[1] from Latin saecularis meaning "worldly" or "temporal") is the state of being separate from religion, or not being exclusively allied to any particular religion.

People can believe themselves to be anything they like, but that doesn't make them right, or exempt from scientific scrutiny, which proves otherwise.

And even if there is some ancestral genetic link to that area, you can't analyse the DNA of any individuals, back to some arbitrary point in time, to some point of origin, and then stake some contemporary claim to "ownership", based on that. It's a ludicrous proposition.
If that was the methodology used to vindicate Israel's existence, Palestinians would still have a far better claim, than someone who's family had resided in northern Europe, for the last few centuries.


Either way, just because a Jew says something about Israel, doesn't make it true either.

I feel we're making progress.
I used to think what you think. Dig a little deeper.
 gurufabbes
Joined: 9/22/2010
Msg: 54
view profile
History
Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Government abstained from voting
Posted: 12/12/2012 4:57:22 AM
That's because, with hindsight, there was no "legitimacy".
They might have existed there, as a 'tribe', some 3,000 years ago (albeit briefly), but "god" didn't "give them the land"


Jewish identity was born there and has always been attached to that land.

But again, the point in terms of Palestine is that many of these Zionist settlers had come, bought land, lived there for at least a generation (not including the Jewish communities that had lived there even longer) and built settlements legally, including the city of Tel Aviv.


The truth is out there.


There are lots of 'truths' out there. And one quote from Noam Chomsky who is clearly not on the side of Israel, is not going to change that.


Secularity (adjective form secular,[1] from Latin saecularis meaning "worldly" or "temporal") is the state of being separate from religion, or not being exclusively allied to any particular religion.

People can believe themselves to be anything they like, but that doesn't make them right, or exempt from scientific scrutiny, which proves otherwise.

And even if there is some ancestral genetic link to that area, you can't analyse the DNA of any individuals, back to some arbitrary point in time, to some point of origin, and then stake some contemporary claim to "ownership", based on that. It's a ludicrous proposition.
If that was the methodology used to vindicate Israel's existence, Palestinians would still have a far better claim, than someone who's family had resided in northern Europe, for the last few centuries.


According to you, secular Jews don't exist because, according to your limited knowledge, being Jewish is all about being religious. Then, you quote some source led by people that 'identify' as Jewish but aren't religious.
You can't have it both ways.


And even if there is some ancestral genetic link to that area, you can't analyse the DNA of any individuals, back to some arbitrary point in time, to some point of origin, and then stake some contemporary claim to "ownership", based on that. It's a ludicrous proposition.


The argument was never based solely on DNA. It was only brought up as an example of proof of a contiguous Jewish people across the world.

Essentially, this is your problem: You don't know much either about Jewish people or about Judaism, and therefore make the wrong kinds of generalizations with other 'religions', and refuse to inform yourself further.


If that was the methodology used to vindicate Israel's existence, Palestinians would still have a far better claim, than someone who's family had resided in northern Europe, for the last few centuries.


I never said it was. You can't make up arguments that the other side never made, then beat the straw man to death.


I feel we're making progress.


Don't bother with the condescending 'we'.
My comment was "Either way, just because a Jew says something about Israel, doesn't make it true either." Arguments and truth stand on their own merit.

All this while you still quote Noam Chomsky and other Anti-Israel Jews and therefore expect it to be taken as gospel.


Rather than feigning knowledge about a subject you know nothing about, here's a suggestion:

START HERE:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 56
Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Government abstained from voting
Posted: 12/12/2012 10:44:52 AM

There are lots of 'truths' out there. And one quote from Noam Chomsky who is clearly not on the side of Israel, is not going to change that.

It was a quote from Chomsky, who was quoting David Ben-Gurion, one of the founders.
There are literally hundreds of examples on record, of the intentions and methods of the founders.

He admitted that: "we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country, while we are still outside’.

Jewish identity was born there and has always been attached to that land.

And

According to you, secular Jews don't exist because, according to your limited knowledge, being Jewish is all about being religious. Then, you quote some source led by people that 'identify' as Jewish but aren't religious.
You can't have it both ways.

Look, you have to stop believing in biblical mythology.
I'm well aware of the "diaspora myth", and the "Thirteen Tribes" etc etc.
From the wiki entry you posted:

In Jewish tradition, Jewish ancestry is traced to the Biblical patriarchs Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the second millennium BCE.

I don't really know how to break this to you, but the bible is just.... wrong!
The world didn't "begin" with Adam and Eve. And Abraham, Martin and John, and his alleged descendents aren't really descended from them.
It's complete BS.! Any genes which jews might claim exclusivity of, have been found in other populations, and vice-versa.

Archaelogical evidence shows that there have been humans in that area for maybe 100, 000 years.
And all of them, including the other 'tribes' ("Canaanites", Philistines, Samaritans, etc etc) were descendents of the earlier migrations, out of Africa.

The world isn't 8,000 years old, as fossil records show, and any common genealogy, at the time the "jews" declared themselves a "tribe", would have pre-existed, and have been shared by almost all of mankind, in that area, at that time.

The National Geographic's Genome Project can tell you the exact 'wave' of migration each of our ancestors took, with some accuracy. (If you pay them $120 and give them a cheek-swab of your DNA)

This notion that the "jews" are a "race", is just propaganda, not supported by any evidence. (Despite their spending millions to try and "prove" it)
(Were it not so tragic, their belief in "racial purity" would be truly ironic!)

Why aren't other religions also "races"...?
The notion that only "jews" posses this attribute, smacks of the same kind of "specialness" that "Aryans" also believed in.

I mean there have also been "christians" who've passed their religions down through the family, and the same for "muslims". It's how all religions endure, by indoctrination of their off-spring, when they are at their most-vulnerable, and trusting.

Look...
Most of what ALL of our ancestors "believed", was just wrong.
I want things to change, I want things to improve.

I can't remember the exact quote, but I think Einstein is attributed to have said something like:
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing again and again, but expecting different results"
Break out.
Be object, and rational, and skeptical.
Leave me now, I grow weary....
 gurufabbes
Joined: 9/22/2010
Msg: 57
view profile
History
Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Government abstained from voting
Posted: 12/12/2012 11:58:06 AM
Break out.
Be object, and rational, and skeptical.
Leave me now, I grow weary....


I think practicing what you preach might be a good way to show you really mean it.
I usually find it the height of arrogance for people to accuse others, with whom they disagree, of not 'being critical'. Being critical involves continuously challenging one's own pre-conceived notions. You don't seem to do that, but rather try to fit what you hear within your own worldview. I.e: Religions are wrong, there I have to fit the idea of 'Jewish people', incorrectly, within a framework of 'religion' and therefore make it wrong.
The reader can decide for himself whether what I have written is closed-minded. I stand by what I've written.

As for you:
I think you either just don't get it or you pretend not to in order to stick to ridiculous points that you think are more defensible:

Jewish identity and Jewish history as a people is more than just the religious component. I can't keep repeating this part, which you just blatantly ignore.

The article goes into genetic evidence, history, archaeology, both ancient and modern Judaism.

Ultimately, you'll just ignore it all because you prefer to just stick to a closed-minded view of things and of the world.

It's not sufficient to change the subject and again attack the straw man. You cannot win an argument by making up arguments the other side never advanced. and then attack them. It's pathetic and you've done it at least 3 times in your last comments.

But let's go a step further:

Even if everything, and I mean everything in the bible were completely wrong. And every idea of people hood from the Bible is wrong, it does not take away from the fact that there is a group of people, connected to one another, that consider themselves Jews and have a shared history and identity and culture together. A people, that way before your time and my time, considered themselves different, were treated differently by the surrounding people in every place that they lived. A people that had different customs, spoke different languages from where they lived. Under every criteria (including, but not restricted to genetic), the Jewish people count as a separate national identity. The "Jewish Question" was a hot topic in Europe centuries before the Holocaust.

Finally, on your obscure need to bring up the Bible (as if its relevant):
The French connection of people does not depend on the veracity of the myths surrounding Charlemagne, nor does the idea of British identity depend on King Arthur.

Every nation equally has the right of self-determination, whether you like the nation or not. This is what Zionism is.
Whether you like it or not, Israel will continue to exist and make decisions of self-preservation that any other country or people in the same decision would make. If the Arab side chooses war, which is its track record, then Israel will defend itself, even if the Arab/Palestinian side chooses to cry "victim-hood" after getting its ass kicked.

Having said that, I've had enough. I've said what needs to be said, and spending even more hours going back and forth, regurgitating the entire Middle East conflict, Judaism, modern Israel, is just simply beyond my time.

The original topic was the Palestinian accession to the UN. I gave my viewpoint.

I've had enough, and ultimately whether you choose to learn from what I've written or not is your own choice.
 Jo van
Joined: 5/23/2009
Msg: 59
Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Government abstained from voting
Posted: 12/13/2012 4:19:57 AM

I think practicing what you preach might be a good way to show you really mean it.
I

I do my best, but as my views are in an extreme minority, I am forced to 'conform' to the popular view, because people don't understand what I'm saying.

I usually find it the height of arrogance for people to accuse others, with whom they disagree, of not 'being critical'. Being critical involves continuously challenging one's own pre-conceived notions. You don't seem to do that, but rather try to fit what you hear within your own worldview. I.e: Religions are wrong, there I have to fit the idea of 'Jewish people', incorrectly, within a framework of 'religion' and therefore make it wrong.

I do have a 'world view'.
That my parent's history, or any of my forbears, is not MY history, it's just history.
Their thoughts and beliefs are not mine.

I 'define' myself, I am not a stereotype, I am an individual.
Consequently, I don't believe in 'tribe', clan, "race", or "nations".
I realise that this is an extreme view, but it's simply a logical extrapolation of the genetic evidence.

Mankind has always migrated.
Sometimes individually, to the other side of the world, where 'founder effects' can leave their mark recorded in the DNA., by means of dateable genetic mutations, and sometimes 'en-masse', where similar effects are recorded as 'layers' of a sort amongst entire populations.

I realise that people seem to feel a 'need' to "belong" to a "group", and that's fine, -as long as they don't "carry" past injustices and historical 'grudges' against other alleged groups.
Then it becomes a recipe for continued tribal conflict, ad-nauseum, as we see in the middle east.

People like to romanticise "their" pasts, and to identify with it.
I am simply trying to own the future, not the past,
I had no say in that.



Even if everything, and I mean everything in the bible were completely wrong. And every idea of people hood from the Bible is wrong, it does not take away from the fact that there is a group of people, connected to one another, that consider themselves Jews and have a shared history and identity and culture together. A people, that way before your time and my time, considered themselves different, were treated differently by the surrounding people in every place that they lived. A people that had different customs, spoke different languages from where they lived. Under every criteria (including, but not restricted to genetic), the Jewish people count as a separate national identity. The "Jewish Question" was a hot topic in Europe centuries before the Holocaust.

Please don't point me at the past, and what they believed, as some justification or 'proof'.
They were wrong about a lot of things. Slavery, witches, wars, and wife-beating, to name just a few
We know better.
Contemporise.

The simple fact is, that a terrible injustice has been perpetrated on the inhabitants of Palestine, and that was based on erroneous tribal beliefs, and beliefs in "race", which aren't born out by scientific scrutiny.

This recognition by the UN is a good first step.
If Israel doesn't change, it will become a 'pariah state' and increasingly isolated from the rest of the world, and people who identify themselves as "jews", will disassociate themselves from the 'project' of "zionism".
It was a terrible mistake.
"Jewish" is just a religion, a belief.

There is no excuse for stealing other people's homes and land.
Increasingly, the world is realising what has gone on there, and is still happening.

The US has condemned Israels reaction, that they intend to build more settlements on disputed land.
If the US ever stopped providing military aid to the Israelis, they'd be in real trouble.

Every nation equally has the right of self-determination, whether you like the nation or not. This is what Zionism is.

What "Zionism is", was 3.5 million people, moving into an existing state, on someone else's land, at the point of a gun, and declaring statehood there. As the Ben-Gurion quote shows.

The world knows that now, as you've seen from the comments here.
If someone who has been 'bullied', becomes a 'bully', then they are still a 'bully', still in the wrong.
There are no excuses to legitimise Israel's actions.
The longer they remain 'in denial', the worse it will get.
They've already lost.
 Melodical
Joined: 10/2/2010
Msg: 60
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History
Palestine wins UN vote to become a non-member observer State – UK Government abstained from voting
Posted: 12/13/2012 1:37:58 PM

Consequently, I don't believe in 'tribe', clan, "race", or "nations".


They all exist though. Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't orthodox jews only allowed to marry other jews? I agree with your views on the "giving" another peoples land to a religion is a huge injustice but you open yourself up to accusations of anti-semitism, racism, holocaust denial if you do but thats the way of the anti-fascist organisations.

A cynic might declare that our land has been given to immigrants in the case of London were the colonisation has now reached 55%....or is that "approved" colonisation?
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