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Show ALL Forums  > Politics  > Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...      Home login  
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 woobytoodsday
Joined: 12/13/2006
Msg: 151
Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...Page 7 of 16    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16)
Kinda laughing at the Republicans: they so thoroughly gerrymandered the House of Representatives districts, that they can not now get rid of the Tea Party. Which looks to be doing a very good job of bringing them down as a viable party. Sweet irony.
 Dcmotz1
Joined: 7/10/2012
Msg: 152
Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...
Posted: 12/24/2012 12:09:14 PM
I find this thread very,very funny. Taxes are not the issue folks. The issue is our Government spending like drunken fools. Bush had two wars on credit and now Obama has everything he does on credit! Obama and the liberl loons are to damn stupid to realize that if you do NOT cut spending, raising taxes is useless. Go ahead, tax the rich...get your 10 days of operating costs covered....then what?
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 153
Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...
Posted: 12/24/2012 1:00:43 PM

I find this thread very,very funny. Taxes are not the issue folks. The issue is our Government spending like drunken fools. Bush had two wars on credit and now Obama has everything he does on credit!...

Good point, as writing off a trillion or so in lost taxes thanks to those Bush tax cuts is clearly not even a drop in the bucket.





...Obama and the liberl loons are to damn stupid to realize that if you do NOT cut spending, raising taxes is useless..

So true, as clearly it is the poor people that are causing all the issues and therefore they should suffer and so what if long term it will mean the country will be worse off.

It would be just cruel to ask a millionaire or a billionaire to pay the same % of taxes as someone else, as clearly they are special people and desperately so should get special treatment.





...Go ahead, tax the rich...get your 10 days of operating costs covered....then what?

Then someone will write another one of those emails that will get passed around so people can fooled into thinking it is the poor peoples fault and it will probably have some stupid correlation between numbers that is far to complicated for the derpies to figure out is just some more spin bullsh*t.
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 154
Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...
Posted: 12/25/2012 5:59:20 AM

Kinda laughing at the Republicans: they so thoroughly gerrymandered the House of Representatives districts, that they can not now get rid of the Tea Party. Which looks to be doing a very good job of bringing them down as a viable party


Sadly Wooby, When these teapublicans hold our country hostage thru next Tuesday, and no budget deal is worked...then the credit ratings of the US will be effected...the political fallout has the ability to holdback any debt ceiling approval...which will further impact credit ratings...and I see this kind of spinning out of control towards the next deep recession (buzz word for depression)...

Of course, the moderate republicans could step forward and help this country forward...if Grover will let them that is.
 Dcmotz1
Joined: 7/10/2012
Msg: 155
Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...
Posted: 12/25/2012 7:13:07 AM
I have no problem with the rich paying more in taxes. They should pay their fair share and so should the rest of us. My issue is the spending. We can raise taxes on everyone and still be in the same condition we are in now if we do not cut spending. Another poster broke out the whole blame the poor card..hate the poor..bad republican! I say we have to cut the debt and the budget to the bone. Our credit rating is about to be cut again and you guys think that is OK? We can not pay our debts to China, this administration seems to think money grows on trees, more and more of our citizens are becoming dependent on the government tit and they seem to want everything for free. And the liberals want to give it to them. When does the money tree run out? Because of arrogance and stupidity the democrats and republicans have ran this nation into the cellar. The democrats blame Bush for all the country's woes and never admit they had control of the purse strings while Bush was in office. The housing bubble sits directly on Barney frank and Dodd..Now the republicans control the house and they are acting like spoiled idiots. What really bothers me is the FACT that the Democrats and republicans can not act in the best interest of the nation. They want what they want and refuse to compromise. Obama needs to listen to congress and the congress needs to listen to Obama. What ever happened to COMPROMISE? But this again all boils down to CUTTING THE DAMN BUDGET. Nothing should be off the table. Welfare, free phones and all the social programs only hurt us all. There is a definite need for social programs but the excess is hurting and redundancy is not helping our debt.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 156
view profile
History
Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...
Posted: 12/26/2012 4:16:32 AM
My ongoing problem with the Republicans and their supporters, is that since 1980, they have made themselves the champions of the idea that the top officers of all corporations (including themselves) should get bonuses and raises every year, whether the companies make a profit or not; while the people working for them should get lower pay, and reduced benefits every year, again whether the company makes money or not.

No reward for hard work, whatsoever (unless you were rich to begin with, of course).

No penalty for upper crust people, when their schemes go wrong, and everything goes to hell. The current Republican idea that taxes and/or expenses should rise on the lower and middle classes, while taxes should FALL on the upper crust, in order to deal with the financial mess triggered primarily by top investment gamers who designed and executed the real estate bubble, is a clear enunciation of that philosophy.

It appears now, that the GOP is hoping that when we do slide down the so-called "cliff," that the American people will blame the Democrats for it. Since they were wrong when they hoped to have us blame the Democrats for the first ever lowering of the US's international credit rating, I think they are making another big mistake. We will see.

For those pretending that no spending cuts are being made, you are buying into right-wing propaganda. Just as they want you to think that there is still a huge swath of Americans who live on welfare alone, they also want you to believe that those on the left and in the center raise expenditures, and that those on the right lower them. Logically, you should approve of the imminent "cliff" journey, since it is designed to force deep cuts and higher taxes on everyone.
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 157
Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...
Posted: 12/26/2012 5:31:25 AM
Ahhhh...proposed spending cuts by Boner and the GOP...All come from programs that promote the social welfare...along with a proposed $100 billion in additional military spending...what part of cutting is additional spending???
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 158
Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...
Posted: 12/26/2012 5:36:58 AM

...Welfare, free phones and all the social programs only hurt us all. There is a definite need for social programs but the excess is hurting and redundancy is not helping our debt.

Good point, as those poor people clearly are living high on the hog as I hear the vast majority of them even own such luxury items as refrigerators.

Social programs not only do not hurt you, they help you save money in the long run, though if you buy into the derp that they cost money (which is a small fraction compared to the social welfare for the rich) it is possible that you would little to no understanding to the true long term value.

Much like the idiots in Texas who in 2011 thought it would be a good idea to cut funding to Planed Parenthood, so they moved ~$73million in funding, which now means the state is looking at a bill of ~273Million to cover the cost.



Likely Increase in Births Has Some Lawmakers Revisiting Cuts
By EMILY RAMSHAW
Published: December 7, 2012

When state lawmakers passed a two-year budget in 2011 that moved $73 million from family planning services to other programs, the goal was largely political: halt the flow of taxpayer dollars to Planned Parenthood clinics.

Now they are facing the policy implications — and, in some cases, reconsidering.

The latest Health and Human Services Commission projections being circulated among Texas lawmakers indicate that during the 2014-15 biennium, poor women will deliver an estimated 23,760 more babies than they would have, as a result of their reduced access to state-subsidized birth control. The additional cost to taxpayers is expected to be as much as $273 million — $103 million to $108 million to the state’s general revenue budget alone — and the bulk of it is the cost of caring for those infants under Medicaid.

Read more at: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/07/us/likely-increase-in-births-has-some-lawmakers-revisiting-cuts.html?_r=0
 Dcmotz1
Joined: 7/10/2012
Msg: 159
Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...
Posted: 12/26/2012 7:49:14 AM
Everything needs to be on the table folks. Military spending included. Again, it is about the money. You can say oh we have to help this group or that group....but eventually we have to stop. Fraud in welfare costs BILLIONS every year. The Military does not need more funding. Senseless government spending by both party's got us to where we are. The democrats are not your saviors anymore than the republicans are your devil! Bottom line, cut the damn spending, pay China back. Make the rich pay more and the middle class as well. We all have to pay to get out of debt, but most of you in here bring out the but...but...but...game. But nothing! Either we get our spending under control or we become Turkey..sound fun to you? And another poster in here believes our credit rating as a nation is not important? How silly are you?
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 160
Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...
Posted: 12/26/2012 7:56:32 AM

...Fraud in welfare costs BILLIONS every year.

Good point, as made up stats also cost trillions each year.
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 161
Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...
Posted: 12/26/2012 7:59:10 AM

Everything needs to be on the table folks. Military spending included.


And yet every proposal from the GOP has included increased military spending while paring nearly all social programs which promote the social welfare...as if removing funding from PBS is going to solve our budget crisis.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 162
view profile
History
Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...
Posted: 12/26/2012 2:30:31 PM
As for military spending cuts, I'm upset about them too. So far, both parties have ignored the plight of the woefully underpaid rank and file members of all branches. Marines are not even being paid the full amount of the bare minimum rates they are continually promised.

When cuts are made, I want them to come entirely out of the funding for programs going to the private sector, and NONE of them to come out of the monies required to pay those who guard and protect us. The GOP wants to increase military spending that will go directly back into the pockets of their already rich friends. The Democrats appear to be entirely at sea, and unwilling to even look at the possibility that soldiers, marines, sailors, and airmen are being abused by Congresses political gaming.

Anyway, at the moment, it looks as though we are going over. See you on the other side!
 Dcmotz1
Joined: 7/10/2012
Msg: 163
Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...
Posted: 12/26/2012 8:09:34 PM
I enjoy how those on the left in here, sure do pass the buck! If you can not think for yourselves and have to post liberal drivel, I feel sorry for you! IT IS ALL ABOUT CUTTING SPENDING...EVERYWHERE! Raise taxes if you want and I agree with that...but you got to stop the handouts and cut the budget and the deficit.. SIMPLE....Now , you all go ahead and blame Bush and the republicans{ Keeping in mind dem control under Bush} and Have a good night in Utopia!
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 164
Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...
Posted: 12/27/2012 5:28:16 AM

...but you got to stop the handouts and cut the budget and the deficit..

Good idea, maybe they can start with this one:

The $70 billion that the oil industry gets in tax breaks.

Big Oil’s Misbegotten Tax Gusher
Why They Don’t Need $70 Billion from Taxpayers Amid Record Profits
Seth Hanlon is Director of Fiscal Reform for CAP’s Doing What Works project.

The five largest oil companies last week announced first-quarter profits of $32 billion, up 30 percent from the first quarter of 2010. Exxon Mobil Corp. alone reported quarterly earnings of $11 billion, nearly 70 percent higher than a year ago, while BP p.l.c., Chevron Corp., ConocoPhillips, and Royal Dutch Shell p.l.c. reaped the remaining $21 billion.

At a time when gas prices exceed $4 a gallon, these profits are coming out of ordinary people’s pockets, and not just at the pump. American families are also padding the oil companies’ enormous profits with their tax dollars. In effect, U.S. taxpayers wrote a collective $7 billion bonus check to the oil industry when they filed their taxes last month.

That’s because the tax code is stuffed with a host of subsidies for oil and gas. These subsidies are delivered through the tax code but they are essentially no different from government spending programs that provide money directly.

Some of these tax earmarks have been around for nearly a century, and the deep-pocketed industry has successfully challenged previous repeal attempts. But today’s high gas prices and inflated profits have undermined the industry’s argument that their tax breaks benefit consumers. Meanwhile, federal budget deficits have sharpened Congress’s focus on eliminating wasteful government spending—of which oil subsidies are one of the worst examples...


Read more about these welfare queens at: http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/tax-reform/news/2011/05/05/9663/big-oils-misbegotten-tax-gusher/
 Dcmotz1
Joined: 7/10/2012
Msg: 165
Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...
Posted: 12/27/2012 5:46:53 AM
All handouts Aristotle...welfare for the rich is appalling. But to blame everything on the rich or big business is silly. Look to the tools in Washington....there you will find the problem. Tell me why your Liberal Senate has not passed a budget in over 3 years? Why Obama wants to remove the budget ceiling. Could you run your household like our government runs the country? Know any Chinese folks to borrow money from to pay your light bill?
It is a shame that the Dems and the Repubs are acting like spoiled children and will not do what is best for the country...Welcome to Turkey ...
 Dcmotz1
Joined: 7/10/2012
Msg: 166
Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...
Posted: 12/27/2012 5:55:46 AM
Here is the problem...now lets put the blame where it goes. All the idiots in both parties caused this. How do we fix it?

http://blog.heritage.org/2012/12/27/morning-bell-10-facts-on-the-fiscal-cliff-debt-and-spending/
Morning Bell: 10 Facts on the Fiscal Cliff, Debt, and Spending
Romina Boccia
December 27, 2012 at 8:37 am
Budget policy in 2012 was characterized by deficit spending, major increases in the national debt, and a heated debate over the “fiscal cliff.”

With just days left for President Obama and lawmakers in Congress to avert a major tax hike, sequestration, and other major policy changes, today we bring you a list of the top 10 facts on federal spending in 2012:

Four years of trillion-dollar-plus deficits. Fiscal year 2012 concluded with a $1.1 trillion deficit, marking the fourth year of trillion-dollar-plus deficits. Too much spending is the root cause of the federal government’s deep and sustained deficits. At 23 percent of gross domestic product (GDP) in 2012 and on track to rise further, federal spending is growing at a dangerous pace.
National debt hit $16 trillion. On September 4, the U.S. national debt hit the $16 trillion mark. We owe more on the national debt than the entire U.S. economy produced in goods and services in all of 2012. Sixteen trillion dollar bills stacked one on top of the other would measure more than 1 million miles high, which would reach to the moon and back more than twice.
The debt limit was raised by $1.2 trillion. On January 30, the federal government raised its debt limit from a staggering $15.194 trillion to an even bigger $16.394 trillion. This increase was the last one of three granted in the Budget Control Act of 2011, a result of that summer’s debt ceiling negotiations, which allowed for a total debt limit increase of $2.1 trillion.
The $650 billion fiscal cliff distracted from the $48 trillion looming fiscal crisis. Much of 2012 was spent arguing over tax rates in the fiscal cliff debate while lawmakers ignored the much more dangerous looming fiscal crisis. As large and as major a concern as federal budget deficits are today, they stand in the shadow of $48 trillion in long-term unfunded obligations in Social Security and Medicare. Even with President Obama’s originally proposed tax hikes in his budget, the federal debt would still rise by more than $7.7 trillion in the next 10 years.
Social Security ran a deficit for the second year in a row. According to the 2012 trustees report, Social Security spent $45 billion more in benefits in 2011 than it took in from its payroll tax. This deficit is in addition to a $49 billion gap in 2010 and an expected average annual gap of about $66 billion between 2012 and 2018. Social Security’s deficits will balloon yet further. After adjusting for inflation, annual deficits will reach $95 billion in 2020 and $318.7 billion in 2030 before the trust fund runs out in 2033 and a 25 percent across-the-board benefit cut occurs.
Three years of spend-as-you-go policies without a federal budget. The last time both chambers of Congress agreed on a budget was on April 29, 2009. Since then, Congress has operated on a spend-as-you-go basis, characterized by incoherent, ad hoc budget procedures. The House passed budget resolutions each of the past two years, but the Senate failed to do its part.
The government spent nearly $30,000 per American household. The average American household’s share of federal spending in 2012 was $29,691, or roughly two-thirds of median household income. The government collected $20,293 per household in taxes in 2012, resulting in a budget deficit of $9,398 per household in 2012.
Obamacare will spend $1.7 trillion over 10 years. After the Supreme Court decision on Obamacare, the Congressional Budget Office did an update of its scoring of the law. The result: Obamacare will spend $1.7 trillion over 10 years on its coverage expansion provisions alone, including a massive expansion of Medicaid and federal subsidies for the new health insurance exchanges. This means that Obamacare will increase federal health spending by 15 percent.
Social Security was the biggest federal spending program. In 1993, Social Security surpassed national defense as the largest federal spending category, and it remains first today. The top five biggest spending programs, in order, are 1) Social Security; 2) national defense; 3) Medicare; 4) Medicaid, CHIP, and other government health care; and 5) interest on the debt.
More than 40 percent of Americans are on some government program. According to Census Bureau data and Heritage Foundation calculations, 128.8 million people in America depend on a government program for basic (or not so basic) needs, such as rent, prescription drugs, and higher education.

For even more budget facts and to see infographics, see Federal Spending by the Numbers—2012.
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 167
Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...
Posted: 12/27/2012 5:56:05 AM

It is a shame that the Dems and the Repubs are acting like spoiled children and will not do what is best for the country...

They are doing what is best for the country, "their country" that is, the one that is run by the elite for the elite.

Where they own media empires and they use them to spread lies, so remember, just because the tax breaks they get are massively more than is given to the poor, they aren’t hypocrites, they’re just cons looking to rip you off.
 Dcmotz1
Joined: 7/10/2012
Msg: 168
Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...
Posted: 12/27/2012 6:16:05 AM

Where they own media empires and they use them to spread lies,



You mean like ABC,CBS,NBC,MSNBC,CNN...Fox is one channel...the main stream media is in the bag for Obama..My God, Chris Mathews and that british idiot Morgan get all tingly for Obama. Whatever happened to real journalism where the truth and facts were reported? All these stations are no more than shitty reality shows with a bad script.

The poor do not pay taxes Aristotle...the rich pay the MAJORITY and you know this. But it makes you feel like your really doing something to feel for the poor. Hey, I want the rich to be taxed but you sound like you do not care where the money comes from {China}. What part of "We can not afford" To have a socialist utopia you so dearly want? We can not feed and clothe every person, I wish we could as well but reality is different. When we stop sending billions to other nations, when we stop trying to feed the world maybe we could feed ourselves.
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 169
Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...
Posted: 12/27/2012 6:29:58 AM

You mean like ABC,CBS,NBC,MSNBC,CNN...Fox is one channel...the main stream media is in the bag for Obama..

That actually would be a lie that has been spread by Fox news, but you would have to be getting your information from an objective source to know that.




The poor do not pay taxes Aristotle...the rich pay the MAJORITY and you know this...

Yet again another fail at understanding the facts.

I know that everyone pays taxes, and that the poor pay the highest percentage of their income in taxes. This is a fact that can not be disputed, unless you are not smart enough to understand how all taxes are paid.




But it makes you feel like your really doing something to feel for the poor. Hey, I want the rich to be taxed but you sound like you do not care where the money comes from {China}...

You sound like you are just repeating sound bites from right wing media sources while the whole time not fully understanding what you are talking about.




What part of "We can not afford" To have a socialist utopia you so dearly want?

Why do you think I dream of some socialist utopia?

What you do not understand is, many people like myself would just like to see the playing field leveled where everyone gets treated fairly and the ultra rich start paying their fair share.




...We can not feed and clothe every person, I wish we could as well but reality is different. When we stop sending billions to other nations, when we stop trying to feed the world maybe we could feed ourselves.

Again, you are going off on another right wing talking point while making no sense what so ever.
 Dcmotz1
Joined: 7/10/2012
Msg: 170
Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...
Posted: 12/27/2012 6:39:49 PM
Nice to see you are blind to the truth...enjoy the cliff Obama wants to push you over!
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 171
view profile
History
Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...
Posted: 12/28/2012 4:34:42 AM
Talk about self-blinded.

In addition to Obama NOT setting up the "cliff" law, it takes at least two sides working to create an impasse. The GOP pretends that 100% 0f the financial problem should be solved by cutting all spending that goes to the less wealthy, and that none of it should come from increased tax revenues. The democrats thinks taxes on the upper crust should go back up where they were when times were better. When we go "over the cliff," it will be the factual responsibility of both parties, because neither one is willing to do what the other says.

As for who gets the most blame, according to recent polls, most Americans are indeed blaming the Republicans (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/12/27/us-usa-fiscal-poll-idUSBRE8BQ0J620121227). Bad press clippings? Bad self-representation? Dedication to principles? Sticking to their promises? Take your pick.

But if you insist in blaming only Obama, you are refusing to look at reality. That's great for your emotional self-reward system, but it's not remotely persuasive or factual.
 Dcmotz1
Joined: 7/10/2012
Msg: 172
Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...
Posted: 12/28/2012 8:24:55 AM
Igor, I am in no way putting everything on Obama. Read my previous post on this thread. I blame BOTH parties. The Senate has not passed a budget in over 3 years, yet that is not a liberal concern? Obama wants to remove the debt ceiling and this is not a problem? The Republicans are acting very stupidly by not allowing taxes to be increased on the wealthy. And they refuse to budge no matter the consequence. The only way to avoid the so called cliff is for Obama to agree to massive spending cuts and for the republicans to allow a tax hike. We know this is not going to happen. Congress sent Obama a bill and he shot it down because it did not give him the revenue he wanted, how about Obama realize that if he does not allow the spending cuts, we sink even further. Both Party's are acting like spoiled idiots..
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 173
Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...
Posted: 12/28/2012 8:39:45 AM

Congress sent Obama a bill and he shot it down because it did not give him the revenue he wanted


Congress sent President Obama a budget???when did this happen???


Obama wants to remove the debt ceiling and this is not a problem?


That's one way to twist the Presidents comments about not letting the GOP hold America hostage over paying it's bills...and the result of which is a lowering of the US's credit rating...making borrowing more expensive, and further increasing the national debt.
 Dcmotz1
Joined: 7/10/2012
Msg: 174
Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...
Posted: 12/28/2012 9:13:04 AM
And once again, the blind leading the blind...
 rpl55
Joined: 3/22/2009
Msg: 175
view profile
History
Can Republicans permit us to suffer the cliff...
Posted: 12/28/2012 9:14:20 AM
IgorFrankensteen said:


In addition to Obama NOT setting up the "cliff" law, it takes at least two sides working to create an impasse.


The "impasse" is indeed fairly blamed on both sides of the aisle, but the "fiscal cliff" is 100% Obama's creation. Yes, Igor, Obama created the fiscal cliff as a bit of political theater to fool the masses into accepting austerity. Here's a little bit of truth for you, from an honest progressive (yes, they are extremely rare, but they do exist.) It's from the Real News Network, a progressive site that attempts to find and report the truth.


Well, we're headed into the next year. Right at this point, it looks like the grand fiscal cliff negotiations won't succeed before the end of this year.

I've just done a piece, you know, that asks the question, since everybody agrees now that the fiscal cliff is incredibly stupid and really dangerous, in the sense that it's designed to impose austerity, and they're saying that if we were to continue this austerity for very long, we would throw the nation back into recession, I went back and looked. How did we come about—you know, who's the moron that created this fiscal cliff that they're talking about? And it turns out it's President Obama. And it's not only President Obama that insisted on this, but he insisted on the fiscal cliff for the express reason that it would create what he called "discipline"—what I would call extortion—on liberals to vote in favor of beginning to unravel the safety net—Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and food stamps—'cause if they didn't, lo and behold, there'd be this fiscal cliff and all kinds of social programs would be gutted. So throw Grandma under the bus was the logic.

http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=9404


IgorFrankensteen said:


As for who gets the most blame, according to recent polls, most Americans are indeed blaming the Republicans (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/12/27/us-usa-fiscal-poll-idUSBRE8BQ0J620121227). Bad press clippings? Bad self-representation? Dedication to principles? Sticking to their promises? Take your pick.


Ooh, let's poll of the ignorant and pretend the results are somehow meaningful. Sorry, but I think you forgot the main reason, Igor. It's the inexcusable ignorance and gullibility of the American people.

IgorFrankensteen said:


But if you insist in blaming only Obama, you are refusing to look at reality. That's great for your emotional self-reward system, but it's not remotely persuasive or factual.


Talk about self-blinded.

RPL
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