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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Historical question: The most important person in the development of      Home login  
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 MrCorBoaz
Joined: 8/22/2012
Msg: 76
Historical question: The most important person in the development of western culturePage 4 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)
Of course the Biblical scriptures have had a HUGE influence on western culture. Before those the Kemetic culture builders. Yeshua Ben Yosef is by far the most influential single figure in the history of "western culture" development.

From there, there is a long list including-
Ptahhotep

Duauf

Merikare

Khunanup

Aristotle

Muhammad

Akhenaten

Ts'ai Lun

Johann Gutenberg

Cristoforo Colombo/Cristobal Colon

Plato

Charles Darwin
 albinosquirlz
Joined: 3/28/2010
Msg: 77
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History
Historical question: The most important person in the development of western culture
Posted: 1/13/2013 1:18:21 PM

The Answer to your question is: Hermes.


Over Gucci, the Tom Ford years? Surely you aren't serious.



William B. Shatner. I think this is pretty self explanatory.


Sure...Shatner is always the knee-jerk go-to guy. But I think I have to give this one to....Farrah Fawcett
 Redfan45
Joined: 8/2/2011
Msg: 78
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History
Historical question: The most important person in the development of western culture
Posted: 1/16/2013 8:43:46 AM

P, to me the most important person in terms of western development would be Jesus, because he wrought Christianity.

You mean for the rape of western society? Christianity is a foreign belief in Europe, and pushed itself violently on the Pagan people of Europe and had no right to be there.
It destroyed western civilization. And before you say "The heathens were barbaric they needed it!"
The fact that Christians mocked the Pagan Norse and Celts for bathing frequently and changing their clothes and said doing so was "evil" should tell you who the barbarian is. The Christian of that time era.
Sure, you can't blame Jesus as he would be appalled at knowing his followers slaughtered millions in his name though.
But you can thank his idiotic followers for destroying true western development and civilization.
 jameslb_iv
Joined: 1/6/2013
Msg: 79
Historical question: The most important person in the development of western culture
Posted: 1/17/2013 3:53:00 PM
I'm surprised it took till the 4th page before anyone even mentioned Einstein or Newton! With Einstein's theories of relativity we've begun to have a better understanding of the universe we live in and with Newton's laws of physics, we've been able to put astronauts in space, to the moon and send rovers to Mars.
 apafely
Joined: 1/14/2013
Msg: 80
Historical question: The most important person in the development of western culture
Posted: 1/17/2013 8:03:28 PM
Excellent topic, Demigod.

True, the greeks were the first set of thinkers who put man on top, apparently over gods, too, inasmuch as the greek gods were the first to be human-like: fallible, full of human vices and passions, and full of the range of human society-building emotions. Greek gods were made for the human race, whereas gods of previous large empires were monsters, mainly, man-eating, nonsensical murderous beasts, and such.

I still vote for Christianity between the two, because while greeks made man top, christianity gave hope to the everyman. It is true that our instututions of society are based on christian values, but one can argue that social institutions would have human values anyways, independent of Christianity. The main, and most important thrust of christianity for the western side of the human race is the inclusivity of the poor and downtrodden, the equalization of all humans. In fact, preference was given to the socially disenfranchised: they could advance into heaven easier than a laden camel through the eye of the Needle.

The spiritual raise the masses received by the advent of christianity is what influenced western social arrangements the most, in comparison to the Hindu Caste system, the Chinese Capitalist system, (I talk about times back to 500 years ago and before: The eastern oriental version of ideology was iron-fisted, sort of a something that Ghenghis khan would have wanted: the amount of personal wealth, influence and power was the only measure of a man in Chinese cultures for thousands of years. I both fear and find it extremely fair and just, that system; not from a poor person's point of interest, but as being a perfectly capitalistic system in its economy of structure, fascist in its economy of merit, and most resembling the evolutionary model of the storngest to fit to survive. In western cultures we have these traits, but the Christian influence of a need and requirement to not freely trample on the downtrodden is more humane and to us, more likeable. I don't know if a truly chinese person can see any sort of merit in the welfare system, in granting days off from work to the workers on week ends, etc.)

One can argue that without the Greek humanization of deities Christianity would never have been possible, but I balk at that. Without the primeordeal soup Disneyland would also be impossible.


The reasons that the World Scientific Organization named the greeks as primary movators of western culture, could have been rooted in the present day extreme unpopularity of the Christian churches, and the extreme unpopularity the USA has garnered for itself with its ill-thought out foreign policy. Since practically the only area of land that counts which is populated almost fully by christians, the two was easy for marriage in the minds of other lands for hating, especially for the scientific community, which is anti-christian from the time anyone could say "Galileo".

So the opinion may be biassed unduly against christianity, I don't know. I strongly feel that.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 81
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History
Historical question: The most important person in the development of western culture
Posted: 1/18/2013 6:49:18 AM
It's too bad we can't break a good thread like this into sub-categories.

I would certainly suggest at least two: the people who CREATED or imagined the concepts and inventions that guided us to where we are now as a culture; and the people who FACILITATED the continuance, or the spread of that culture, regardless of their own personal qualities, or insight, or creativity (or lack thereof).

Thus people like Alexander and Constantine would not be competing head to head with Aristotle and Jesus.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 82
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History
Historical question: The most important person in the development of western culture
Posted: 1/18/2013 2:19:46 PM
I can't speak for he who started the thread, but I can say as one who has read and reread the original premise, that this thread is not about who you think SHOULD have influenced others. It's about who think DID influence them.

Further, what we think about someone today, has absolutely nothing to do with how influential they have been since they were here.

I still have a problem, trying to decide what Western Culture actually consists of, so that I CAN figure who was influential, and who we just like to pretend was so.

One thing, for example, that I am aware of only because I have studied both history and historiography, is that there is a lot of Greek culture which certain of our forefathers WANTED to pretend we had built our past upon, and so they added all sorts of modern myths to our lives. Romans similarly pretended that they had inherited the vaunted mantle of Greek philosophy and social concepts, not because they actually had, but because they admired what those such as Alexander had accomplished, and wanted to "borrow" Greek authority, in order to more easily rule the Mediterranean.

In modern times, there are all sorts of socio-political leaders who CLAIM to believe in and admire all sorts of people, but if you watch how they conduct their lives, you will come to realize that they make absolutely no effort at all to actually follow up on that alleged admiration. They want you to think they do, so you will vote for them, or buy their crap.

That makes it even more interesting and difficult to select who ACTUALLY contributed to whatever Western Culture consists of.
 Jan Sobieski
Joined: 7/4/2008
Msg: 83
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History
Historical question: The most important person in the development of western culture
Posted: 1/18/2013 3:52:01 PM
The first man who, having enclosed a piece of ground, bethought himself of saying "This is mine," and found people simple enough to believe him, was the real founder of civil society. From how many crimes, wars and murders, from how many horrors and misfortunes might not anyone have saved mankind, by pulling up the stakes, or filling up the ditch, and crying to his fellows, "Beware of listening to this impostor; you are undone if you once forget that the fruits of the earth belong to us all, and the earth itself to nobody".
- Jean Jacques Rousseau
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 84
Historical question: The most important person in the development of western culture
Posted: 1/18/2013 4:15:08 PM

Historical question: The most important person in the development of western culture

I would like to change my answer to:


The Salesmen.

Society is based on the pioneering spirit of taking advantage of other peoples lack of understanding and look back at any major event in history and it more than not involved someone conniving a bunch of people something is a good idea.

That person, is know as The Salesmen.
 apafely
Joined: 1/14/2013
Msg: 85
Historical question: The most important person in the development of western culture
Posted: 1/18/2013 5:05:50 PM
- Jean Jacques Rousseau apparently had read the book "The prehistoric origins of state, family, and private propery" by Friedrich Engels, and drew a sappy, girlie-girl, mauve conclusion, full of gold unicorns and very sad care bears. It does not even matter that the two were reverse-order born and Rousseau's work preceded that of Engels.


"The first man who, having enclosed a piece of ground, bethought himself of saying "This is mine," and found people simple enough to believe him, was the real founder of civil society. From how many crimes, wars and murders, from how many horrors and misfortunes might not anyone have saved mankind, by pulling up the stakes, or filling up the ditch, and crying to his fellows, "Beware of listening to this impostor; you are undone if you once forget that the fruits of the earth belong to us all, and the earth itself to nobody".
- Jean Jacques Rousseau"

Impostor is a person who pretends to be a specific person he is not.

So if this impostor is not the proper owner of the land, he is acting in the image of another person who could be saying truthfully and with all rights, "stay off this land or else."

Rousseau is not making a case for communal living, but he is making a case for stamping out identity theft everywhere. If you read the text with a grade 12 knowledge of English and meaning of English words.

If one says he pretends to be the owner who is the right owner, and the right owner is everybody, then the use of the word "impostor" is wrong, because the claimant for private ownership of this given land is NOT saying, "I'm everybody, so the land is mine."

The mathematics don't work out, either. If he has a land with a given potential for agricultural work, then everyone should have an amount of land with the same agricultural yield. This would be equivalent to everyone owning all the land. Plus, private ownership would encourage harder work, since agricultural production is a response-elastic industry to the work put into it. If all owned all land, hardly anyone would bother to work at it, and then everyone would be poor. Eveyrone owning land which each produce the same income in agrarproducts, that would be a much better arrangement.

I conclude that Rousseau was wrong in this shout-out to all in France for public ownership.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 86
Historical question: The most important person in the development of western culture
Posted: 1/19/2013 2:09:47 AM


I conclude that Rousseau was wrong in this shout-out to all in France for public ownership.


Who owns the dog?...The dog, or the fleas staking claims on his rump?
 apafely
Joined: 1/14/2013
Msg: 87
Historical question: The most important person in the development of western culture
Posted: 1/19/2013 7:38:23 PM
I conclude that Rousseau was wrong in this shout-out to all in France for public ownership.

JustDocky:
Who owns the dog?...The dog, or the fleas staking claims on his rump?

I wonder... is this a direct attack on my character? If it is, can I report this to some authority, who will endeavour to not have this happen in the future?

I am not the reporting-of-others kind, JustDucky, but please do not insult me. I ask for this, only because there is nothing else I can do to stop you doing it. Please don't hurtle meaningless insults at me even if you disagree with my opinion. It hurts me, and I don't think I deserve to be hurt for having totally different opinions from yours.
 algha
Joined: 2/8/2007
Msg: 88
Historical question: The most important person in the development of western culture
Posted: 1/21/2013 6:09:44 PM
Occasionally humanity throws up an individual, who has original ideas. Most people's ideas are built on borrowed ideas, improved ideas, and such. Any individual with NEW ideas finds themselves in a minority of one, as established ideas, converted by powerful and influential humans have lots to loose, mainly their credibility, social position, and wealth. (values taught to plebs to engineer envy)

So history is full of the heroes that died for a cause that their death resurrected, by followers with no real ideas of their own, but who knew how to market and profit from such ideas clothing themselves in them.

Christianity, was just a set of ideas, revolutionary at the time, and in that environment, seen as terrorists /threats to the established order, but that was before the transformation by those with nothing to offer but to see profit in such secondhand ideas. These people blew new life into the corpse, reviving its ideas to godly heights, and the rest of the disillusioned and insecure followed, and remain faithful to such borrowed ideas. Let us not discuss the effect of Alexander opening up the trade routes to the far east, and tsuch ideas influencing Israel then.

Alexander actually did something, he took his preaching into new realms, in life, as opposed to death, led the living believers into new lands and new ideas. Globalisation is but one of his ideas, one world, ruled by one authority, himself. He was also another model for Christians leaders to model their saviour on.

So charismatic individuals are more the conduit for tribal feelings to be realised through, and they are always a product of their time, and the pressures ordinary people want to be freed from. Western civilisation / culture always seeks heroes, live or dead to worship, which tells us a lot about how individuals view and value their own lives, in their own time. We now worship mindless celebrities, with limited knowledge, who not just work in entertainment but politics too. But these wonderful Heroes, Icons, leaders, presidents, have collectively allowed western culture historically to lead us to the present, to where we are today. So much for trusting leaders who do not save anyone from anything see anything, and understand even less, but they do understand bribery, and corruption, which is why they are in public office to begin with.

Just look at how the west wishes to shape the world, keeping order through the barrel of a gun, or threat of a nuke, making sure people vote for the right kind of leader and correct form of democracy. Our leaders, celebrities, are constructing a world in their own ideas of humanity. The western world is now involved in perpetual war, not because of any real enemy who poses a threat outside their limited geographical environment, but to boost the influence, importance, and profits of a relatively small corporate elite, who we dare not think are completely out of control. They shape the media message, so truth is what fits the corporate picture. I doubt that even nuking a sovereign state will wake up the blind followers, fed on edited truths, mixed with lies, whose ideas like those for thousands of years were just borrowed, to give the individual a sense of self. The elite blind with no vision at all lead the blind, down a hole of slow inevitable global destruction. These special priests, worship on the alter of profit, and the means to such a belief system, built on hard cash, which has no conscience whatsoever.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 89
Historical question: The most important person in the development of western culture
Posted: 1/21/2013 7:39:30 PM




I conclude that Rousseau was wrong in this shout-out to all in France for public ownership.

JustDocky:
Who owns the dog?...The dog, or the fleas staking claims on his rump?

I wonder... is this a direct attack on my character? If it is, can I report this to some authority, who will endeavour to not have this happen in the future?

I am not the reporting-of-others kind, JustDucky, but please do not insult me. I ask for this, only because there is nothing else I can do to stop you doing it. Please don't hurtle meaningless insults at me even if you disagree with my opinion. It hurts me, and I don't think I deserve to be hurt for having totally different opinions from yours.


Where did that come from? I was simply commenting on the take on what Rousseau said by making an analogy between people/planet earth and fleas/dog, by asking if the fleas can own part of the dog (and if not, how can people own part of planet earth)?

There was no need to take it personally, as it wasn't any sort of insult or personal attack on anyone.
 Solomonlike
Joined: 1/18/2013
Msg: 90
Historical question: The most important person in the development of western culture
Posted: 1/22/2013 5:10:26 PM

It destroyed western civilization.

The facts say this is NOT true. It would be difficult to say that the Celts would have had a civilization or actual nation had it not been for the Roman empire an it's profound impact on the Celtic cultures. In as much as most things Roman had a huge impact on Celtic lifestyles so of course would Christianity which not by force, became the religion of the Roman state.

Then there is this tidbit of information...According to Aristotle, most "belligerent nations" were strongly influenced by their women, but the Celts were unusual because their men openly preferred male lovers .
 59thShadeofGrey
Joined: 9/25/2012
Msg: 91
Historical question: The most important person in the development of western culture
Posted: 1/23/2013 5:47:33 AM
I'm going with Saul of Tarsus.

His efforts in promulgating the Greatest Lie Ever Told led inexorably to the decay of western civilization, the privations of the Dark Ages, the ignominy of the Inquisition, and stunted the advance of science and progress for centuries.

Without his influence, it is likely we would have cured cancer, developed interstellar space travel, ended institutionalized corruption, dramatically reduced crime, poverty, prejudice, disease, ignorance, superstition, and any number of cultural ills.
 longworth1
Joined: 12/7/2012
Msg: 92
Historical question: The most important person in the development of western culture
Posted: 2/6/2013 5:30:41 PM
And now a feminized christianize western man fails to stop
his destruction via floods of biological and cultural aliens.
 longworth1
Joined: 12/7/2012
Msg: 93
Historical question: The most important person in the development of western culture
Posted: 2/7/2013 4:30:03 AM
Adolph Hitler understood society as an organism. Now Europe is plagued by migrations of biological and
cultural aliens. Not a pleasant ending ahead.

(What decadence contributes to the wimpish posture of Western countries i.e. culture
distorting immigrants?)
 Solomonlike
Joined: 1/18/2013
Msg: 94
Historical question: The most important person in the development of western culture
Posted: 2/11/2013 3:19:03 PM

Of course the Biblical scriptures have had a HUGE influence on western culture. Before those the Kemetic culture builders. Yeshua Ben Yosef is by far the most influential single figure in the history of "western culture" development.

From there, there is a long list including-
Ptahhotep

Duauf

Merikare

Khunanup

Aristotle

Muhammad

Akhenaten

Ts'ai Lun

Johann Gutenberg

Cristoforo Colombo/Cristobal Colon

Plato

Charles Darwin


Very interesting and unique perspective. The Greeks did learn from the Egyptians and Ethiopians, they themselves said this. Numerous Greek scrolls have indicated that they felt civilization began in Egypt/Ethiopia. Greek scholars went directly to Egypt to learn including Solon, Thales, Plato, Lycurgus and Pythagoras. Plato taught Aristotle, Aristotle taught Alexander son of Phillip of Macedonia. In the west great influential minds like Ptahhotep, Duauf, Merikare and Khunanup not to mention Akenaton are often forgotten. Most people have never heard of them.

The importance of Colon is also sometimes misunderstood. Perhaps Darwin should be placed higher on a list. After all, some of his theories and theoretical offshoot are more strongly adhered to than most religious doctrine. Even many who claim to espouse certain religious/spiritual beliefs hold some Darwineque theories more strongly. Excellent and interesting list.
 Solomonlike
Joined: 1/18/2013
Msg: 95
Historical question: The most important person in the development of western culture
Posted: 2/23/2013 3:37:51 PM
Cristoforo Colombo/Cristobal Colon=actual names "Christopher Columbus" would have answered to.
Historical question: The most important person in the development of western culture
Posted: 2/23/2013 4:05:01 PM
I haven't commented in this thread, because I don't think I know much at all on this subject, as far as the particular question is concerned. This is an area where I'm a bit ignorant. I haven't even read much in this thread yet.

However, I still have a vital question and a possible answer...and would love any feedback as to how warm or cold I am in understanding what we're even talking about here.


Historical question: The most important person in the development of western culture


First, what is "western culture"?

Secondly...to be very, very reductionist, or overly fundamental (not sure how to say that, because I'm not sure if I even know what I'm talking about here), I'd take a stab by saying that the most important person in the development of western culture would be the first person to ever rebel against the basic idea...or convention...of the centralization of governing or knowledge-dissemination...or convention...and the spark of this particular person's "re-examining" attitude just happened to perpetuate and spread.

But, obviously, this depends on what I think the defining quality of "western culture" is in the first place. Never really thought about this one much. If nothing else, I know that my type of post should get the conversation going properly.
 Paul9473
Joined: 2/12/2013
Msg: 97
Historical question: The most important person in the development of western culture
Posted: 2/23/2013 7:36:19 PM
How exactly do you define western culture? Geographically? The west has always been in a constant state of flux due to people movements. Maybe in contrast with what is defined by Eastern culture, but then that begs the question what is Eastern culture.
The flux of people moving into the west has always been more influential on the west than anything inherently western.
Furthermore we can see by a lot of responses that people from Eastern lands are often picked as #1: Jesus, Mohammad, Genghis Khan (I haven't seen Tamerlane yet). They all have had a much greater hand in shaping the west than any actual westerner, Alexander the Great included. I don't know if you can really say yes that's western culture unless it's actually homegrown and distinctly western. These people are very strongly influential, though there influence is largely transcultural (otherwise they wouldn't have been able to adapt their influence from East to West) rather than anything distinctly culture bound. I'm Australian and a large proportion of our societies functioning is from European influences (~80%) , but these influences are not what fit naturally with us, are what we would identify as being our culture or shape our national identity. It is often the reactions against this, which have grown up in an Australian context, (small an influence though they may be) that we identify as being true blue; as our own identity.
I still don't know exactly how to class western culture. Maybe European culture might be a step in the right direction?
Another Easterner to throw into the mix.
What about Harun Al Rashid. He set up the Bayt al-Hikma library. Vast quantites of western literature (Aristotle Archimedes etc.) would be lost to history if it had not been collected and stored by the Abbasid caliphate while Europe lay in the clutches of the Dark Ages.
 Blueberryeggos
Joined: 1/24/2012
Msg: 98
Historical question: The most important person in the development of western culture
Posted: 2/23/2013 11:56:52 PM
Martin Luther. Imagine life right now if he didnt stand up to the catholic church and its power over the everyday folk. The earth would still be revolving around the sun .
 Ford_Galaxie
Joined: 6/3/2012
Msg: 99
Historical question: The most important person in the development of western culture
Posted: 2/24/2013 12:04:02 AM
Tesla. The father of AC power and radio communication. Self explanitory. All things that modern society take for granted- too many people have forgotten that mankind has lived like shit until recently.
 Blueberryeggos
Joined: 1/24/2012
Msg: 100
Historical question: The most important person in the development of western culture
Posted: 2/24/2013 9:08:47 AM
Yes funnygirl Im vaguely aware the earth doesnt go around the sun. Bullet point I was trying to make was if he didnt stand up to the stranglehold the catholic church had we'd still be living in the dark ages.Cant see what POFwould be like if we were all still a bunch of field toiling serfs.
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