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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?      Home login  
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 RussArtLover
Joined: 5/13/2010
Msg: 26
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Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?Page 2 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)
be careful what you wish for :)
 nipoleon
Joined: 12/27/2005
Msg: 27
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Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?
Posted: 1/27/2013 1:13:04 AM
Somebody has to say this.....
The whole western concept of marriage for love is really a perversion of the classic idea of the institution. Marriage through the ages has seldom been about love. Marriages have always been about financial and social contracts between families.

It's easy to get married, if all you want to do is get married.
I know lots of women who will gladly marry any man who would ask them.
I know lots of women who will gladly trade a lifetime of sexual favors for financial security. That seems like such a great deal. It's no wonder so many of them end in disaster.

I would gladly marry a woman who I thought was truly worthwhile.
Unfortunately, I don't know any women who are worthwhile.
 Proteaus
Joined: 6/9/2009
Msg: 28
Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?
Posted: 1/30/2013 6:05:42 PM
Marriage is considered a traditional relationship , also known as the nuclear age family . With the progress the feminist agenda has made it is now becoming a thing of the past . Unfortunately western society is based on the so called nuclear family . So it to , may come to a end , only time will tell . With the current no - fault divorce laws a man has to consider whether getting married is worth the punishment of divorce . New stats show over 70 % of divorces are initiated by women since the no- fault divorce laws have been in effect. They are not divorcing because of abuse , cheating , being a bad father or husband , but merely because they are not 100% satisfied . So a man has to really think about whether he wants to be financially gutted in divorce court . The woman will take his children , house , and possibly a good portion of his income for 20 + years . So getting married isn't as attractive as it used to be .
 ohwhynot46
Joined: 6/28/2009
Msg: 29
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Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?
Posted: 1/30/2013 10:43:58 PM
I hardly think it is about "believing" in marriage, as certainly it exists. For me, personally, I see no need for marriage unless kids are in the mix (call me old fashioned, but, whatever...), not because I don't believe in the institution as it was intended in its' entirety, but because of what is has become in society.

It seems a bit unfair to suggest that the decline of the nuclear family is the fault of feminism, as it is nearly impossible for most to exist on one income, and that is often what this view boils down to: money, and the view of what is "mine". Gone, it would seem, is the notion of "ours" and there is little recognition on the part of both parties as to the contribution of the other party. It is disingenuous of you to state why it is that women are filing for divorce, as you know not, in reality, who does so for any particular reason. We all have our stories, and there are three sides to every single one of them. Sadly, perception is reality. From where I stand, there are so many factors leading to the dissolution of the family unit; loss of the sense of community, inability to form personal relationships & general selfishness, all stemming from advances in/relaiance upon technology, an emphasis on material wealth and the like which lead to the inability or refusal to acknowledge that a successful marriage takes work & personal sacrifice, hard work by two individuals with a common goal & the drive to put an equal amount of effort into it. It's not really about man vs. woman, but rather about the denial of a couple.
 _shakti_
Joined: 7/5/2011
Msg: 30
Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?
Posted: 1/31/2013 11:06:34 AM

I've seen some terrific marriages.
That's great, did it give you something to model yourself after?

I can not think one ONE married couple I know that got married for any other reason except for just being in LOVE.
As though marriage is somehow synonymous with being in love? If that were the case, everyone who falls in love would choose that route.. but many don't (including me). So there must be a little more to the reasoning.....

As I said before, I've seen many people get married because they feel they have to, because 'it's what is done', because of a childhood fantasy, because their parents insist on it, because they feel God won't love/accept them.. if you haven't? Fair enough, but that doesn't alter the reality of what I have seen.

The proof is in WHAT pudding? LOL
Well.. the divorce rate for one, LOL.
 _shakti_
Joined: 7/5/2011
Msg: 31
Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?
Posted: 1/31/2013 1:26:43 PM

Ouch. Besides that feeling like nothing more than a person attack, it's really irrelevant to what was being said. What does my marriage have to do with your claim that you've never met a happily married couple your whole life and me saying I've know many happily married couples?
I have no idea what you are talking about. You had said that you have seen many examples of great marriages, so I asked if it gave you something to model yourself after? Which IS relevant to the topic because you have claimed that most people you know marry only for love.

Obviously what we have seen and been exposed to plays a large role. What religion we are brought up in (some don't believe in premarital sex- which seems like a pretty BIG motivating factor for some) and the general idea of marriage that has been handed down to us by our parents and prevailing culture. Honestly, do you deny that that plays a role?

I would actually argue that this is a massive part of why the divorce rate is higher now. Women don't HAVE to stay in abusive and intolerable marriages, like they used to. Even though they are still excommunicated from their church, or seen as hurting the children, etc, etc... but even still, the paradigm is shifting, and it shows.

I wasn't making a comment on your marriage at all.

Well, like another poster said....maybe the divorce rate IS 50% but that also means that 50% don't divorce.
I'm pretty sure it's higher than 50%, and definitely higher in second, third or more marriages..

I wonder what percentage of long term "committed" couples stay together?
So do I.

But to be honest, the results wouldn't sway my opinion on marriage and whether or not I want to be a part of it.

Frankly, I'm kind of glad I was shown crappy marriage examples growing up. It caused me to question what is underneath it all, when many of my peers were dreaming of wedding dresses, big diamonds and their prince charming.
 Entheogen43
Joined: 9/30/2011
Msg: 32
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Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?
Posted: 1/31/2013 4:00:05 PM
Well, I'm marriage-crazy.
I don't know why I want it so bad, I just do.
I begged my fiancee for years,
and it took those years for her to discover that I wasn't going anywhere,
that I can tolerate her brand of insanity, and she can tolerate mine,
that we are more together than apart.
The paper contract doesn't mean spit to me.
If it means the evil scary hospitals have to let us visit each other, I'm all for it.
But what really matters is the lifetime commitment,
The promise that we'll look out for each other, come hell or high water.
She wants to elope. I'm not sure what that means to me,
But I'm happy with however she wants to do it.
I really like being able to call her my wife, even if we're not formally married.
Although I don't know what wife means. I know husband means care-taker.
I love taking care of her in any way I can, and she does the same for me.
Our sense of gender is so mixed up, maybe we're both
husbands, and both wives, lol.
And she wants me to be sexually satisfied, and I her.
So we can see other people to meet the needs we don't know how to directly provide for each other,
And still be completely commited to each other.
I believe this flexibility will be a major contributing factor to keeping us in the 50 percent who do make it.
And it's just will power, you know?
When she dies, I'll follow her, and we'll still be married,
In heaven or hell or wherever, we'll have each other,
And life or the afterlife will never be as bad as it otherwise could be.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 33
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Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?
Posted: 1/31/2013 5:08:54 PM
Marriage is good for society and should be promoted as a social norm.

Wonder if anyone looked if the recent round of school shootings... how many were broken homes? How many were in 'therapy'.

The promotion of disposable relationships... the really problematic issues of divorce and how they are easy to get and while everyone gets destroyed in the process makes marriage even less attractive.

Stability in family helps the population rate stay at a comfortable normal where places like russia was begging people to have more kids.

http://www.slate.com/articles/business/moneybox/2006/05/children_for_sale.html

In May, Vladimir Putin, alarmed at Russia's declining population, which is falling thanks to short life expectancy and a plummeting birthrate (1.17 children per woman, down from about 2 in 1990), offered a bonus of 250,000 rubles (about $9,200) to women who would have a second child.


Idiocracy... gotta love that movie.

http://scholar.harvard.edu/files/2006_criminology_laubwimer_0.pdf

MARRIAGE MECHANISMS
AND DESISTANCE FROM CRIME
It is not how many beers you have, it’s who you drink with that
matters.
—Wife of a man who desisted from crime after she insisted he
switch drinking venues
The association of marriage with lower crime among men has been
widely reported in both quantitative and qualitative studies (Blokland and
Nieuwbeerta, 2005; Farrington and West, 1995; Horney, Osgood, and
Marshall, 1995; Irwin, 1970; Maume, Ousey, and Beaver, 2005; Sampson
and Laub, 1993; Shover, 1996; Warr, 1998; for a review, see Laub and
Sampson, 2001). The idea of marriage as an inhibitor of male crime was
illustrated by a former delinquent who had been married for 49 years
when we interviewed him at age 70: “If I hadn’t met my wife at the time I
did, I’d probably be dead. It just changed my whole life... that’s my turning
point.” What is it about marriage that fosters desistance from crime?
Consistent with themes articulated by offenders themselves, we highlight
four processes.
First, a change in criminal behavior may occur in response to the
attachment or social bond that forms as a result of marriage. This notion
reflects a classical social control or “social bonding” perspective (Hirschi,
1969), wherein the social tie of marriage is important because it creates
interdependent systems of obligation, mutual support, and restraint that
impose significant costs for translating criminal propensities into action
(Sampson and Laub, 1993).
A second reason marriage might influence desistance is because it leads
to significant changes in everyday routines and patterns of association with
others. It is well established that lifestyles and routine activities are a
major source of variation in exposure to crime and victimization
(Hindelang, Gottfredson, and Garofalo, 1978). Consistent with this theme,
Osgood and colleagues (1996) showed that unstructured socializing
activities with peers increased the frequency of deviant behaviors among
those ages 18 to 26. Marriage has the potential to change such routine
activities, especially with regard to deviant peer groups (Warr, 1998
 Back.up
Joined: 1/7/2013
Msg: 34
Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?
Posted: 2/1/2013 3:44:17 AM
This topic is about marriage and whether people believe in it. Well, it seems it is really a quasi debate or critique on church - on belief and what role God has in a persons life. I believe in marriage and think God should be a part of peoples lives.

There certainly have been a number of passionate responses. I think that if people do not believe in marriage they don't believe in marriage and should accept that there are some who do - I would appeal here to 'liberal tolerance'. Seems to me the arguments listed on this topic 'against marriage' could have been lifted from a christopher hitchens debate/book and are nothing especially new.

I can list reasons why I 'believe' in marriage - though i'm not sure that those points should be raised in this discussion as each would require further discussion in its own right and you can not debate 'belief'. - Frankly, listing reaons why marriage is a 'bad' thing seems sort of pointless because for every argument you make against marriage, one can be presented that supports it. For what purpose though, to achieve what outcome, do those who do not support it want those who do to change their mind? Is it some sort of vain 'mission' to assert a percieved intellectual superiority? do the 'enlightened' super liberals want to lead those of us who believe in marriage to some sort of 'awakening' through the vehicle of their skills in rhetoric?

If you don't believe in marriage, you dont believe in it. If you consider commitment without marriage the same thing or somehow greater than marriage, knock yourself out. My question is why the ardent and vehment aggression towards the woman who said she does, why do you care so much?
 DragonBits
Joined: 1/6/2012
Msg: 35
Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?
Posted: 2/1/2013 10:23:11 AM
Marriage has been around since the start of recorded history, I doubt the events of the past 40 years amount to a hill of beans against that record.

Christian church and those who wrote the bible co-opted marriage because it was such an important part of society, they didn't invent it, they wanted to control it. They just got on the band wagon.

Most countries throughout the world have marriage, including countries that don't have a Christian population. In Thailand people get married with a Buddhist wedding, but it doesn't have any legal standing. If you want a legal marriage, you register at a government office, it's simpler than applying for a drivers license, no test involved. Just prove you aren't already legally married, both people sign a form, you are now married. Church and state don't mix together like they do in the USA.

I am neutral on the subject of marriage. If I dated someone that didn't want to get married, it wouldn't matter to me in the least. But I note that all except 1 woman that I dated longer than 6 months wanted to get married, even 1 that started out the relationship telling me we were ship passing in the night, she surprised the heck out of me by saying she wanted to get married.

One of my best friends has never wanted to get married, never wanted to have children, I have known him for the last 25 years. He broke up with his last GF because she wanted to get married and have children. Now he is with a women over the age of 50, they live together in his house and I expect they will stay together. He recently spent 20,000 to take her on a world wide trip, he earns over 150,000 a year. I never really got a clear answer about why he was so against marriage when he really wants a long term monogamous relationship, the most has said is that he doesn't want to mix his assets with a spouse. But he supports his GF, and I expect if she got sick he would take care of her. His reasons don't matter to me, he is a nice guy and I really don't have any bias for or against marriage.
============================================

But I got married for the 2nd time in April 2012.

While I love my GF/wife, the real reasons I got married were two fold.

1) It was important to my wife, since we currently have a long distance relationship, the more validation of the relationship the better. Her culture is much more conservative than the USA, there are a number of Western men that have Buddhists weddings but never legally register their marriage, many of them have wives already or leave Thailand at some point and never return. So validating our relationship was important to her and her family.

2) The USA Government will not grant her a visa unless we are married, I want her to come here and become a citizen, there is no choice but to get married.

============================

My experience has been if I have a GF in a exclusive relationship, and she wants to get married and I don't, eventually over a long time the relationship will fall apart because of this. My wife is young and it isn't fair to her to keep her in a relationship where she won't get what she needs. So my choice is either to get married or break up. Since I am neutral on marriage and have no fear of getting married, it made no sense to me not to get married.

So those were my reasons for getting married, I wanted to stay together.

To answer the OP questions 1 by 1.

)50% or more of marriages end in divorce, what makes you think you would be in the 50% who make it, don’t you think all those people who failed thought they would make it? What makes you think you’re an exception?

Plus, of the 50% who make it, how many of those are miserable? How many of them are bored out of their minds?

ANSWER: Is it possible to be any more bitter, jaded, cynical and miserable than the majority of male posters on PoF? I like to think I am wiser than the 50% of those that got divorced, one reason I chose to get married at 35 to my ex-wife was that I believe my ex-wife would never become vindictive, I was correct about that. I was not satisfied with our marriage, it was a lack of sex drive on her part, but otherwise she was a good wife. So I requested the divorce. But her lack of sex drive was a long standing issue that had nothing to do with getting married, I thought being married would help her get over it, I was wrong.

2)Everything that marriage offers can be achieved without being married (sex, children, companionship).

ANSWER: Many studies disagree with that.

Bowling Green found in a 2010 study that of cohabiting couples, 36 percent say both partners are “very satisfied,” compared to 57 percent for married couples.

The biggest cause of family break-up is the untold numbers of unmarried cohabiting couples, whose families fall apart at five times the rate of married families.

Gay people demand the right to get married, what's up with that?

3) Spouses get lazy after marriage, they having sex, they gain weight, etc because they are protected by the legal institution of marriage (they have their partner trapped, they don’t have to try to attract anymore)

ANSWER:

Like single people now days in the USA are all lean, trim fighting machines? How protected are we in marriage if the divorce rate is 50% and there is no fault divorce? Don't get married to someone like that, how about that as a solution? If they get fat and lazy and lose interest in sex and I don't like it, I will get a divorce, it's not hard to do.

5)If you really love and trust your partner then why do you need the government/church/3rd part etc to sign a contract and validate your relationship? It seems to me that if you REALLY love and trust your partner then a 3rd party isn't necessary.

ANSWER:

I agree, you don't need a contract to validate your relationship. But most people don't want to get married because they fear divorce, so I would comment that if you are willing to sign the contract, your commitment is much greater than those who want a LTR without any stings.


GENERAL OBSERVATIONS:


The divorce peaked in 1993 and has been slowing declining up to now. IMO no fault divorce caused a peak in divorce rate, and many baby boomer women stayed married until their children left home. The phenomena is passing, so I expect marriage ratios will remain about the same or climb slowly.

===============================================

Since then, the divorce rate has modestly declined. The decline apparently represents a slight increase in marital stability. Two probable reasons for this are an increase in the age at which people marry for the first time, and that marriage is progressively becoming the preserve of the well-educated. Both of these factors are associated with greater marital stability.

The data shows that women between the ages of 50 and 59 who had been married had a 41 percent divorce rate. In 2004, that number was 44 percent.

Divorce rate hits 40-year low as couples marry later in life, and figure looks set to drop further

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2166806/Divorce-rate-hits-40-year-low-couples-marry-later-life-figure-looks-set-drop-further.html

IMO it's fine it you don't want to get married, it fine if you do want to get married. I don't think it's a failed paradigm, but I believe people can be happy in a relationship with or without being married. I do think married couple are more stable than those living together. People are getting married later in life and they make better choices. I do think if one gets married at age of 20, it's tough to say married for the next 60 years, people do change in ways it's hard to predict.
 _shakti_
Joined: 7/5/2011
Msg: 36
Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?
Posted: 2/1/2013 4:35:02 PM

Perhaps it would have been relevant if I was married, but since I'm pretty sure you knew I was divorced, then yea...irrelevant. Or, at the very least, inappropriate.
I already told you that my entire point was about MODELLING and how it plays a role in the choices we make regarding marriage (and MANY others to boot, I wouldn't think this is somehow news). I honestly have no idea why you keep insisting that I am making a personal attack when I've explained otherwise, it seems odd to me.. but your prerogative after all.


Obviously what we have seen and been exposed to plays a large role. What religion we are brought up in (some don't believe in premarital sex- which seems like a pretty BIG motivating factor for some) and the general idea of marriage that has been handed down to us by our parents and prevailing culture. Honestly, do you deny that that plays a role?
Yes, I do....
You deny that cultural/social/familial/religious influences play a role in people's choice of whether to marry?? I am flabbergasted.

Especially when you go on to point out:


Frankly, I'm kind of glad I was shown crappy marriage examples growing up. It caused me to question what is underneath it all, when many of my peers were dreaming of wedding dresses, big diamonds and their prince charming.
And if you've never seen the other side of marriage, how could you think anything but this^^^?
So modelling only plays a role in a person's choices regarding marriage if they are bad.. ?

LOL.. c'mon now.

I fell in love too, yet I chose to not get married. Even when I was asked by the men I loved.. because it isn't important for me to be married. I don't buy into the fact that I somehow have to in order to feel love or commitment. And hey, if I had chosen to get married, I'd be divorced today.. so what would it have meant anyway? (that was rhetorical btw)

AND, I believe on average, married men live longer.
Well, according to one of the longest-running studies of longevity ever conducted...

"the Terman Life-Cycle Study, started in 1921. The 1,528 men and women, who were 11-years old when the study started, have been followed for as long as they lived. Two groups of people lived the longest: those who got married and stayed married, and those who stayed single. People who divorced, or who divorced and remarried, had shorter lives. What mattered was consistency, not marriage. The results were the same for the men and the women."

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/living-single/200902/no-getting-married-does-not-make-you-live-longer

A person grows weary of near-constant false dichotomies.
 Maverick325
Joined: 5/1/2011
Msg: 37
Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?
Posted: 2/1/2013 8:54:29 PM
I don't think marriage is a big deal, one way or another. It's a rather simple thing, and these days, you can always get a divorce if you have to. It seems misplaced to worry about marriage as creating any significant problems.

I don't like the idea of a fancy wedding ceremony, but there is some value to the ceremony itself. I'm not very big on tradition, but I also don't believe in throwing out old traditions just because they are old traditions. There's just something romantic to me about getting married. I don't think of it as something that's imposed on me. More like something I get to do. You don't have to get married if you don't want to.


If you really love and trust your partner then why do you need the government/church/3rd part etc to sign a contract and validate your relationship? It seems to me that if you REALLY love and trust your partner then a 3rd party isn't necessary.


It's not as if anyone NEEDS it. That's kind of a double-edged sword. If you really love and trust each other, then it doesn't matter if you DO get married or if you don't. This just seems to be over-thinking it to me. The contract part of it might not really be the point. It's not a matter of validating anything, at least to me. More like celebrating it.

Another problem I see here is talking about failed marriages as if non-marital relationships are immune to failure. There's just a little extra hassle of getting divorced involved.
 60to70
Joined: 7/28/2008
Msg: 38
Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?
Posted: 2/1/2013 11:14:34 PM
Marriage is a better thing than not. Despite all the debate, I wish you all a very good marriage partner and believe me you will appreciate the benefits. Sanctioned by some very meaningful words..."in sickness or in health, etc. etc. etc." Spoken in front of witnesses and accountable in the final analysis when you screw up....
 Back.up
Joined: 1/7/2013
Msg: 39
Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?
Posted: 2/2/2013 2:15:36 PM
60to70 - agreed, well said.
 Back.up
Joined: 1/7/2013
Msg: 40
Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?
Posted: 2/2/2013 2:16:09 PM
well typed I meant.
 Rheostatic
Joined: 5/27/2011
Msg: 41
Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?
Posted: 2/2/2013 3:05:07 PM

1)50% or more of marriages end in divorce, what makes you think you would be in the 50% who make it, don’t you think all those people who failed thought they would make it? What makes you think you’re an exception?
Plus, of the 50% who make it, how many of those are miserable? How many of them are bored out of their minds?


A ridiculous statistic infated by the large number of 18-22 year olds that get married. Go ask everyone you know how many peolple THEY know that are divorced.


2)Everything that marriage offers can be achieved without being married (sex, children, companionship).


Tax benefits? And You can go anywhere you want without owning a car as well. But people still want cars.


3) Spouses get lazy after marriage, they having sex, they gain weight, etc because they are protected by the legal institution of marriage (they have their partner trapped, they don’t have to try to attract anymore)


The same can be said of non-married people as well, as they age. And to say 'they have their partner trapped' is awfully cynical.


4) Marriage is an unchallenged cultural/religious norm that people do because its tradition, because its what is expected, considered normal, good, successful...


So are birthday parties and funerals.


5)If you really love and trust your partner then why do you need the government/church/3rd part etc to sign a contract and validate your relationship? It seems to me that if you REALLY love and trust your partner then a 3rd party isn't necessary.


I highly doubt anyone has ever been married for the sole purpose of government sanctioning.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 42
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History
Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?
Posted: 2/3/2013 1:20:34 AM
A lot of people have pointed out studies showing this and that, and statistics (which are usually easily questionable) that suggest one side or another. Someone listed all the legal and financial benefits (I would call them legalized bribes, since they were specifically set up by the various governments to make marriage more attractive) to marriage.

But what is overlooked on all that sort of approach is, that after you convince yourself that some form of marriage is a desirable thing for a society, as soon as you act to force, cajole, convince, bribe, or otherwise artificially manipulate people into doing something, you inherently damage or destroy the very thing you are trying to encourage.

Not to mention, that the fact that so many perks HAVE been added to marriage by governments, indicates strongly that they HAD to bribe people into doing it, because they had already done other things to marriage which made it unpleasant.

As for the number of people included in a given study, if you actually learned how data analysis and statistical analysis and/or scientific analysis works, you would realize that the number of participants was way less important than how well the study itself was conducted.

Simply looking at 500 million people and seeing how long they lived, doesn't tell you squat, relative to any other factor. Before you can show that a REAL link exists between something like marriage, and something like longevity or health, you have to find and identify the MECHANISM by which this linkage occurs. With no mechanism, all you have are cherry picked statistics.

In other words, if you take all the statistics in that 1500 member study, OR the 500 million person study, and just list all of them in a huge column, you could claim that all sorts of links exist. They might include things like, that people who live in houses they own, live longer than people who rent. Or that people who are married, spend far less time and money enjoying life themselves, than do single people. Or that married people in this country are more likely to divorce than married people in that country.

Until someone clearly demonstrates WHY AND HOW the government regulated thing called marriage, actually CAUSES longer life, it is nothing more than an apparent statistical coincidence.
 timeforall
Joined: 8/26/2012
Msg: 43
Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?
Posted: 2/3/2013 9:11:15 AM
First of all, the actual divorce rate for first marrieds is significantly less than 50 %. Second of all, if a person refuses to marry a person who loves them, its because they don't love them enough in return. You would have to be nuts to not marry somebody you truly love. True Love doesn't come around every day. Third, you can assume the worst about life, including marriage will fail, or you can assume the best and go for the gusto. Losers in life have negative attitudes and so don't try. For example, i read all of the statistics about how so many businesses fail. I started one anyway and have been highly successful. So don't get married if you don't want to, but to avoid marriage because others fail is stupid and quite frankly, immature.

I would add however getting married just to get married is not worth it. If you have never fallen in love, you should be never married.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 44
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History
Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?
Posted: 2/3/2013 9:26:29 AM
Legalized bribes? lol It's always interesting to get so many different opinions from people in the forums. I never thought of marriage as a "legalized bribe".....interesting.


Technically the tax benefits are bribes. That doesn't make them evil manipulative and somehow enslaving. Just spend a second thinking about it. Of course government has always wanted to promote the idea of marriage and family. A nation that has any form of pride would want to remain and grow and for those that grow to be of that nation. That can only occur through birth of citizens. Well, it really would be idiotic to promote the random births of children between random people. There is no stability and who cares for the child? The only reasonable thing to promote is family. One man, one women and the women has 2.x children average. That is for just straight maintainence of the population. The 2 covers replacement of both husband and wife since each female would need to replace both. The .x covers those that only have one child or those that chose to not have children.

When this number gets smaller the population starts aging. When the population starts aging there are fewer able bodied to take care of the aging. Government services then begin to get stressed. The burden on the working gets heavier.

So, yes it is a bribe. And why the hell wouldn't they? At what point does it make any sense to promote being childless or childbirth outside of marriage. Neither of those have a systemic ability to support the society. They challenge it. With an aging population requiring more government services then you add on single parenting of children and who is paying for this? Oh the rich got it covered... Yeah... they will always have money.

The civil promotion of marriage is specifically promoted for the health of the country. A country that cares about it's families is not an inherently bad government. It's pragmatic. Families also tend to have a higher respect for the country and with their increased responsibilities tend to stay out of trouble a bit more. Who forgot this?
 nipoleon
Joined: 12/27/2005
Msg: 45
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Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?
Posted: 2/3/2013 9:42:58 AM
Has it occurred to anyone, that all those people who are actually happy in their marriages or relationships, are not contributing to this thread or members of POF.

Face it folks..... the mere fact that your looking at this automatically means that your point of view is probably a bit prejudiced.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 46
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Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?
Posted: 2/3/2013 9:45:49 AM
^^^^ :) That is why I made no attempt to even claim any 'act of love' defense. I really wouldn't know what that felt like.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 47
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Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?
Posted: 2/3/2013 10:00:34 AM
Yes, thanks, aries. I wasn't saying that marriage is a bribe, I was saying that the list of special benefits someone earlier listed, were mostly government "bribes," which they put in place for the same reason lots of government actions are done, including regulation of businesses, tax breaks for rich, tax breaks for green energy, and so on.

That they thought they needed to add the bribes, points strongly to the fact that THEY find that marriage isn't desirable or beneficial enough to people, in and of itself, to get them to do it. Hence, that they are there does NOT add support to the side saying that "marriage is better for you than not marrying."
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 48
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Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?
Posted: 2/3/2013 10:32:38 AM
That they thought they needed to add the bribes, points strongly to the fact that THEY find that marriage isn't desirable or beneficial enough to people, in and of itself, to get them to do it. Hence, that they are there does NOT add support to the side saying that "marriage is better for you than not marrying."


And to that I would say correct, depending on the individual. And again, you are correct about why the government is offering its 'incentives'. It use to be that marriage was just expected. Individuality within a family structure was less important then the family. Then things started to shift and families became smaller and there were less children to focus on and then someone flipped on the self-esteem switch and wanted all the focus on the child. Now you have kids with +$1000 4yr birthday parties with an expectation that 'their day gets them something bigger and bigger' each year for no other reason then their existence. The higher the education the less children so the more 'special' that one child is. Me me me me me me me me me and its not really all that awesome now is it. This is even more damaging in poor areas where self esteem is seen as monetary. Both cases leades towards the inflation of a false sense of self-esteem.

So, yes, societies current views of what is important in life is pretty screwed up. Just because they do not support that marriage is better doesn't mean they are by default right due to the numbers of people that feel this way. It is sad that government needs to provide presents for people to do something that use to be considered good and valuable to heath, society, and the country. Me me me me me.

The whole thing is self sustaining decline. Marriage is losing its benefits over the traditional expectations of families because families have lost their benefits and beliefs in the value of a family to 'their' country. It is no longer attractive for a guy to know that it is likely he will be required to forfeit over 1/2 of his real world value just for feeling those 'loving' feelings.
 _shakti_
Joined: 7/5/2011
Msg: 49
Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?
Posted: 2/3/2013 3:11:12 PM

But how was it about MODELLING couples with terrific marriages if I'm divorced? Understand? Unless you were trying to say in a passive -aggressive way "good for you that you've know a lot of couples with terrific marriages but obviously it didn't do you any good since your divorced".
For one thing, I have precisely zero problem with being direct, lol.. and secondly.. I've already explained the point I was making. More than once now. What does your eventual divorce have to do with modelling/environmental/social/cultural/familial factors playing a role in a person's choice to marry.. ?

Continuing to see this as some sort of personal attack says more about how you feel about divorce, not me. I don't believe in marriage, why would divorce carry a stigma in my mind? As I've pointed out, I'm not particularly interested in dichotomous thinking, and it had no bearing on the point I was making.


You deny that cultural/social/familial/religious influences play a role in people's choice of whether to marry??
Well, I'm sure there are still arranged marriages in some cultures but evidently it isn't very common in my culture since I don't personally know anyone that was more or less pushed into marrying.
I'm really sorry, but what do arranged marriages have to do with the point I was making.. ? I can't even comprehend why you would bring that up in relation to what I was saying.

If a person were to grow up in a culture/family/society where marriage wasn't common, what would be their motivation to get married? There would be no model or expectation in that regard. I don't see the point in further repeating myself though, it doesn't seem to be bridging the gap between our points of view and futility ain't my cuppa chai.

Well, if you were paying attention you would have noticed I made that comment to that particular poster in fun not as fact.
And I countered it with info to the contrary, but then it shouldn't come as a shock that the so called benefits of marriage wear off once said marriage ends.. so which would be better, a LTR which lasts, or a marriage that ends in divorce?

Yet society STRONGLY favours one over the other (whether it lasts or is healthy or not).. why do you suppose that is?

Why do you suppose there is prejudice against those who choose not to.. ?

This must have to do with LOVE too, right?

Now have you never been hit on by single blokes when you've been in a LTR and they know it, no less worse IMO.
I realize that cheating occurs whether married or not.. which actually, was part of my point.

Why would I want the illusion that marrying a man will prevent adultery? Or somehow protect my kids? When quite clearly, it doesn't.

Marriage and faithfulness are not synonymous.. this site certainly carries enough proof in that regard. Not to mention the success of sites like Ashley Madison.. great testament to the sanctity of it all, lol..

Is the LTR the new marriage for the 21st century.
That seems to be the way things are going.. and I see nothing wrong with it. Yet to some it means armageddon is nigh, lol...

if a person refuses to marry a person who loves them, its because they don't love them enough in return. You would have to be nuts to not marry somebody you truly love. True Love doesn't come around every day.
This right here is the false dichotomy that I have been referring to and I for one am sick to death of it.

I chose to not get married, so that means I didn't love my spouse or am nuts? I don't know how much more ignorant this can get.

So I should get married when I am in love to satisfy society? It makes NO sense whatsoever.

you can assume the worst about life, including marriage will fail, or you can assume the best and go for the gusto.
I don't have to assume the worst to want no part of it. Yet another false dichotomy

I'm sorry for you shakti. I rally am. My 20 year old daughter says she will never get married, but she is a child. Whatever your age, you are an adult, and you are never going to experience what a few lucky people experience, the bonding of heart and soul with another human being. Granted most people who married don't get there either, but at least they step up to the plate. Your negative attitude is loud and clear. I agree you should never marry, and really, you should make clear from the getgo with some guy unfortunate to come into your grasp, that you are incapable of deep love.
I've already experienced the deep love that you speak of, without the so called benefit of marriage. I'm sorry that your thoughts are so limited, you can't even comprehend such things are possible.

But then, social mores run deep and many people don't like to step out of the lines others create for them... I'd say 'moo', but I don't want to be insulting, lol..

Oh, and I've been upfront with every man I've ever been with. But I still had two proposals and two others tell me they wanted to marry me.. poor them since I'm not actually capable of deep love, right?
 timeforall
Joined: 8/26/2012
Msg: 50
Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?
Posted: 2/3/2013 3:22:59 PM
I'm sorry for you shakti. I rally am. My 20 year old daughter says she will never get married, but she is a child. Whatever your age, you are an adult, and you are never going to experience what a few lucky people experience, the bonding of heart and soul with another human being. Granted most people who married don't get there either, but at least they step up to the plate. Your negative attitude is loud and clear. I agree you should never marry, and really, you should make clear from the getgo with some guy unfortunate to come into your grasp, that you are incapable of deep love.
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