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Show ALL Forums  > Science/philosophy  > Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?      Home login  
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 melodyof_k
Joined: 5/2/2012
Msg: 51
Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?Page 3 of 6    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6)
two ppl in love,
in a ltr for years.
one wants to get married.
the other doesnt....says its only a piece of paper, no meaning.

a pre=nup is agreed on.
still....one says no....it is just a meaningless paper.
but the one who wants marriage sees much personal value in the same piece of paper.

so why would the person to whom the paper means so much of NOTHING...
refuse to join in marriage with the one they love?

after all....the paper means nothing ?
 _shakti_
Joined: 7/5/2011
Msg: 52
Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?
Posted: 2/3/2013 4:57:01 PM
^^ Good question.

For some it is the money, or the fact that they are not religious and have no desire to be a hypocrite.. or they just plain don't want to deal with all the work and hassle (of the wedding itself). Still others feel a stubborn refusal to break their principles, or their pride is somehow attached to the decision. For myself way back when.. it was because, as much as I loved them.. I didn't see a forever type of future (I was right too).

There is one man I would have changed my mind for. And it wasn't because of love.. to me marriage or making a LTR work for the long haul requires MUCH more than that. It was because I deeply respected him and did see a solid future between us. I also knew how important it was to him in the grand scheme of things. But.. it didn't play out that way.

For some people love is reason enough, for others.. that's just not the case.
 justagrlwithacat
Joined: 2/7/2011
Msg: 53
Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?
Posted: 2/3/2013 9:12:21 PM
"believing in it" doesn't really seem like the words I use to describe it. One thing being in my mid 30s, never married, is I don't feel the need to play princess for a day, like i might have in my early 20s because "that's just how it is" type thinking. marriage, especially the ceremony, isn't important to me at all. I'm happy with common law. But I do get nervous about some legal oddity coming up denying my or my partner some right..even though common law is recognized in canada. I still have a bit of a nervous feeling. So if a marriage were agreed on, if not necessary, I'd prefer to elope or do it quietly one afternoon at city hall, sign the papers, go grab some chow.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 54
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Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?
Posted: 2/4/2013 3:32:22 AM
Melody:

two ppl in love,
in a ltr for years.
one wants to get married.
the other doesnt....says its only a piece of paper, no meaning.

a pre=nup is agreed on.
still....one says no....it is just a meaningless paper.
but the one who wants marriage sees much personal value in the same piece of paper.

so why would the person to whom the paper means so much of NOTHING...
refuse to join in marriage with the one they love?

after all....the paper means nothing ?


I can answer that apparent paradox. It's like another one, recently mentioned in another thread.

There only SEEMS to be a conundrum or paradox here, because one of the people isn't expressing themselves very well.

The person refusing marriage is SAYING that it's just a meaningless piece of paper, but that is NOT why they are averse to marriage.

More than likely (I have seen this many a time) the person averse, has been burned by expecting marriage to HAVE real and reliable meaning, and is therefore angry at both the institution, and the society which led them to believe in it before. So the will never again voluntarily "play the fool."
 timeforall
Joined: 8/26/2012
Msg: 55
Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?
Posted: 2/4/2013 6:10:58 AM
Its hard to imagine a bigger fool than a person who will allow their true love to walk out the door because they are averse to marriage. That's the type of decision that will come back to haunt a person for the rest of their life.
 woobytoodsday
Joined: 12/13/2006
Msg: 56
Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?
Posted: 2/4/2013 7:34:00 AM
I'm really curious why this matters at all. . . . I love brown eyes, 'cause I just DO. It isn't necessary for me to convince anyone else, or defend my liking. Or hold that those who don't agree with me are lacking, somehow. . . . Pretty much the same argument as between believers and atheists, eh? Believe what you wish, and find common cause with others who believe the same, and be happy!
 _shakti_
Joined: 7/5/2011
Msg: 57
Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?
Posted: 2/4/2013 11:05:46 AM

:shaking head: Seriously?
You said you've seen many people get married because they feel they have to, because 'it's what is done', because of a childhood fantasy, because their parents insist on it, because they feel God won't love/accept them.. if you haven't?
IMO you made it sound like you are surrounded by people that are some how forced into marriage, as if we live in a country where "arranged marriages" (or the likes of it) are common. We must be speaking different languages. lol
We must be indeed, for how do you jump to being forced when the process of socialization is brought up.. ?

It undeniably plays a role in people's choices.. without the element of force, lol.. I would have thought that fairly evident, but then some people never bother to question it. So I shouldn't be all that surprised.

These two comments speak volumes to me, it doesn't sound like you "don't believe in marriage", it sounds more like you've just never met the right man imo.
When discussing all of this with you, I see many false dichotomies, and a refusal to see past them.. so there really is no point in continuing.

Pretty much the same argument as between believers and atheists, eh?
Excellent analogy. I was just thinking last night that to me this is very similar to those who think that to believe in God you must be part of a religion. To have your beliefs dictated by an institution. Some feel they need it while others don't.

Believe what you wish, and find common cause with others who believe the same, and be happy!
Very true!
 RussArtLover
Joined: 5/13/2010
Msg: 58
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Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?
Posted: 2/5/2013 8:28:20 PM
Beautiful.

That is the best spin I've ever heard on The manger story.
 melodyof_k
Joined: 5/2/2012
Msg: 59
Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?
Posted: 2/5/2013 9:10:38 PM
57 Nipolean: good point

67 Igor....in my case a good possibility from before


58 timeforall : agreed.

I would marry again,
but I see no need for a big wedding that one poster wrote to be a reason not to marry.
a big wedding spells out stress to me. I dislike stress all around. Period. I prefer simplicity and tranquility.
I know that I am my own person...
but when I am alone at an airport or in a store...
and a man is hitting on me,..
it would be pleasing for me to have a wedding band on and let him see that I "belong" to someone who loves me.
its a symbol of "we want to grow old together and we have chosen one another"

what you have to do is date a person who wants the same things. Or compromise and accept it and be happy as long as you are with the one you love.
 timeforall
Joined: 8/26/2012
Msg: 60
Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?
Posted: 2/7/2013 6:52:23 PM
Marriage is good for people. "The research on marriage is striking. For decades, studies have shown that the married live longer and have a lower risk of a variety of physical and psychological illnesses than the unmarried." 37 Also, those who are married report higher levels of career satisfaction than those who are single. 38 The North Carolina study confirmed that what is true for people generally is also true for lawyers specifically: Among lawyers, "changing from single to married status directly increases happiness and satisfaction with life. Marriage also leads to greater job and career satisfaction . . . and improves health." 39 The North Carolina study identified unmarried lawyers as one of three categories of lawyers least satisfied with their lives. 40

Likewise, divorce is bad for people, both physically and psychologically (and, for women, economically). 41 Those who divorce die younger than either those who never marry or those who stay married. 42 Indeed, the impact of getting divorced on life expectancy is "only slightly less harmful . . . than smoking a pack or more of cigarettes per day." 43 Divorced people suffer from cancer, cardiovascular disease, infectious diseases, respiratory illnesses, digestive system illnesses, and other acute conditions more frequently than do single, married, or widowed people. 44 Divorced people are far more likely to abuse alcohol or become alcoholic than those who have never been divorced. 45 Psychologically, divorce is devastating: "Of all the social variables relating to the incidence of psychiatric disorders, or psychopathology, in the population, none appears to be more crucial than marital status." 46 The separated and divorced suffer from psychiatric illness (such as depression and schizophrenia) far more than do the single, married, and widowed. 47 For example, men who are divorced or separated are admitted to hospitals for treatment of psychiatric disorders twenty-one times more frequently than married men. 48 And, not surprising, the suicide rate of those who are divorced is almost triple the rate of those who are married, and significantly higher than the rates of those who have never married or been widowed. 49

http://www.averyindex.com/happy_healthy_ethical.php

37. David B. Larson et al., The Costly Consequences of Divorce: Assessing the Clinical, Economic, and Public Health Impact of Marital Disruption in the United States 1 (1995); see also id. at 41-88; Beck et al., supra note 21, at 7; Lee A. Lillard & Linda J. Waite, 'Til Death Do Us Part: Marital Disruption and Mortality, 100 Am. J. Soc. 1131 (1995); David G. Myers & Ed Diener, Who Is Happy?, 6 Psychol. Sci. 10, 15 (1995); Hara Estroff Marano, Debunking the Marriage Myth: It Works for Women, Too, N.Y. Times, Aug. 4, 1998, at F7; Jennifer Steinhauer, Studies Find Big Benefits in Marriage, N.Y. Times, Apr. 10, 1995, at A10.

38. See David L. Chambers, Accommodation and Satisfaction: Women and Men Lawyers and the Balance of Work and Family, 14 J.L. & Soc. Inquiry 251, 255, 274 (1989).

39. North Carolina Bar Ass'n, supra note 23, at 7.

40. See id. at 4. Lawyers working more than 250 hours per month and associates working at law firms were the other two categories. See id.

41. See generally Larson et al., supra note 37, at 41-88; Judith S. Wallerstein & Sandra Blakeslee, Second Chances: Men, Women, and Children a Decade After Divorce (1989); Judith S. Wallerstein & Joan Berlin Kelly, Surviving the Breakup: How Children and Parents Cope with Divorce (1980).

42. See Larson et al., supra note 37, at 44-58 (collecting and describing studies).

43. Id. at 1.

44. See id. at 46-47, 58-61 (collecting and describing studies).

45. See id. at 61-62 (collecting and describing studies).

46. Id. at 63.

47. See id. at 62-70 (collecting and describing studies).

48. See id. at 64.

49. See id. at 50-57.
 melodyof_k
Joined: 5/2/2012
Msg: 61
Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?
Posted: 2/7/2013 8:37:33 PM
Sorry...I meant Igor message 67 where he answered what I wrote makes sense to me as could be true.
especially in what I went through and my ex went through.

and I meant message 68 (Timeforall) that I also agree with you.

foolish to let the one you love walk away because you cant marry.
and you cant even compromise and live together.
 Secondhand_Lion
Joined: 11/10/2008
Msg: 62
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Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?
Posted: 2/8/2013 3:08:15 AM
The best thing I've seen for a society is the Mosuo tribes of China....that's worth checking out on Youtube.
 zarathustra40
Joined: 1/12/2012
Msg: 63
Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?
Posted: 2/8/2013 6:17:25 PM
Marriage is essential to a well ordered society. We have one clear and over riding purpose to marriage and that is in order to encourage ethical reproduction. Another derivative social benefit of marriage is the recognition of the equal worth and dignity of the two sexes. It curbs male predatory sexual and reproductive strategies and it also curbs female sexual/reproductive strategies. Men have a natural desire to have sex and have children with multiple women. Women have a natural desire to have sex and have children with status maximizers or alpha status men. Without marriage men are disadvantages with increased male disposability. Without marriage women are disadvantaged by not having men involved in the raising of children.
So if you ask me, I would rather have lots of sex with lots of different women however I am prepared to constrain my desires to maximize in order to attract women. I suggest that women are still overwhelmingly attracted based on status clues. Women therefore are usually overly selective in terms of who they will date. The result is they then have sex with a small pool of men who are good at exploiting there more base status desires. Marriage constrains this in women. Men and women have an equal access to the good of reproduction.
 Secondhand_Lion
Joined: 11/10/2008
Msg: 64
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Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?
Posted: 2/8/2013 7:23:05 PM
^^^^^Bullshit !
 zarathustra40
Joined: 1/12/2012
Msg: 65
Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?
Posted: 2/10/2013 10:48:37 AM

But I do get nervous about some legal oddity coming up denying my or my partner some right..even though common law is recognized in canada.


In Canada, our family law is a complete mess. the result is when men and women enter into marriage they are unable to gage what they have committed to and also whether they will be treated justly and fairly. Main problem is not with the ceremony but the papers signed.
 zarathustra40
Joined: 1/12/2012
Msg: 66
Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?
Posted: 2/10/2013 10:58:33 AM

The best thing I've seen for a society is the Mosuo tribes of China


I think you are using cultural relativism in order to support a moral relativist view point. I think there is nothing beneficial we can ascertain from the way Mosuo live there lives.
 59thShadeofGrey
Joined: 9/25/2012
Msg: 67
Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?
Posted: 2/10/2013 12:39:03 PM

We have one clear and over riding purpose to marriage and that is in order to encourage ethical reproduction.


Ethical reproduction? That's an interesting term. Care to define it or cite your source for it?
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 68
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Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?
Posted: 2/10/2013 6:35:57 PM

Ethical reproduction? That's an interesting term. Care to define it or cite your source for it?


I have never heard it termed that way but it should have been clear what it means.
Children raised by a Mother and Father in a single home as a single unit.

If that is too complicated for you too understand maybe you could come up with a better means of raising children.

Let me help you with your options: To make it easy we will limit the choices to "Not being on Welfare"

Single mother through medical procedures. Mother must work so children are raised by surrogates.
Single mother with separated father. Mother must work so children are raised by surrogates.
Married Mother and Father. Both parents work to support lifestyles. Children are raised by surrogates.
Married Mother and Father. Either parent stays home during day and one works at night. Not much of a family structure.
Married Mother and Father where One parent works and one parent raises children. Can lead to lifestyle envy or career achievement jealousy.
Married Mother and Father with mutual understanding of roles and responsibilities and mutual respect and admiration of each others roles. Ideal.

Take all of the married scenarios and duplicate for Gay couples.

The most beneficial to the children and the parents which then leads to the highest benefit to society as an ethical and supportable goal is the Married couple with mutual understanding of roles and responsibilities and respect.

Or do you have some other version of ethical reproduction you can come up with?

It is best to not have surrogates raise children. Especially the state surrogate.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 69
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Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?
Posted: 2/10/2013 6:47:02 PM
What undermines that ^^^very rational set of concepts, is that the bulk of the laws and regulations that make up marriage, are not about those values. They are about property, and financial considerations.

None of the nice ideas presented above, require the interference and enforcement of governments. And since the rest of the structure of our modern society actually works AGAINST those values, in support instead, of profits for businesses... and governments work MUCH harder to support THEM, the nice concepts really don't work as a reason to support marriage as the current thing it is.

As for "ethical" reproduction, the only concern or argument I have about that, is that the terminology relates to religious-type belief systems, more than to rational considerations. Judgmental moralisms tend to be that way. There is no evidence to support the contention that marriage makes reproduction any more successful or have more positive results for the children than situations wherein reproduction occurs without a government-regulated set of rules. There are too many instances of married parents doing a horrible job, and unmarried ones doing just fine to support it.
 Aries_328
Joined: 10/16/2011
Msg: 70
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Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?
Posted: 2/10/2013 8:47:30 PM

What undermines that ^^^very rational set of concepts, is that the bulk of the laws and regulations that make up marriage, are not about those values. They are about property, and financial considerations.


I don't think it is undermined in the slightest. It shows a very basic fact of the reality of the role of government. Government is nothing but polices and procedures and everything else necessary in the support of society is really the determination of self and how the self fits in with surrounding society. Government supports ideals, it can try, but typically fail, to legislate them.
 zarathustra40
Joined: 1/12/2012
Msg: 71
Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?
Posted: 2/11/2013 8:06:40 AM

As for "ethical" reproduction, the only concern or argument I have about that, is that the terminology relates to religious-type belief systems, more than to rational considerations.


I think this objection makes sense if you consider ethics as being non rational. I think however your position runs aground if you make claims that one should be rational. This is in and of itself a moral claim.


There is no evidence to support the contention that marriage makes reproduction any more successful.

I am not sure I understand what you mean by successful. I suggest however if you come up with a value of success you are making a value judgement. I suspect a circularity in your reasoning here. By successful I assume ethical based on your criteria. The problem is success seems to be a comment after the fact. It requires looking into the future. We do not have the benefit of hindsight in formulating actions we think are beneficial or ethical. An act of kindness might have bad consequences that are not foreseeable.
What most people agree with is a concept of rights and obligations for simply being human. Even utilitarian's buy into the notion that this concept is useful. It is my contention that the respecting of human rights is ethical and the abandonment of human rights is unethical.
The claim I am making is there are rights and obligations that parents acquire simply from being a child's parent. This in and of itself would be a model for slavery if not for corresponding rights that the child has. I suggest that a human right a child has is to be raised by his/her own parents. The parents have this duty to raise the child and the child has a right to that particular set of parents. Furthermore I suggest that without these sets of rights there can be no basis for the respecting of any human rights.
 zarathustra40
Joined: 1/12/2012
Msg: 72
Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?
Posted: 2/11/2013 8:28:04 AM

Care to define


I have tried to define it in a response to another post. In general I am strongly influenced by the work of Margaret Somerville.
 Divine-Diamond
Joined: 2/11/2013
Msg: 73
Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?
Posted: 2/14/2013 8:51:53 PM
Hmm I don't think it's the marriage itself that needs "believing in" so much as the one we marry that does.
 melodyof_k
Joined: 5/2/2012
Msg: 74
Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?
Posted: 2/15/2013 5:45:09 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
what Divine Diamond said...
its the person we have to believe in.
if you both want to marry....marry.
be happy.
 Dokkodo
Joined: 3/8/2011
Msg: 75
Marriage, do you believe in it, why/not?
Posted: 2/15/2013 9:08:15 PM
I'm all for people having ceremonies to celebrate their love.

Throw a party, invite your family, claim you'll be together forever, announce you're going to make babies. I'm cool with all that.

It's when the church and government come into it that I take issue. Those are two institutions famous for corrupting up everything they touch, they should not have any place in love. I've known people who wanted to divorce amiably and were forced to go to court and spend a lot of money to split up, it's nonsense.

Tax breaks for being in love is also showing bias towards couples and the government should be unbiased in such matters.

Only reasons you should get married are financial gain and the backwards laws that would allow people to take your children away if one of you were to die and you are unwed. So if you're in love, having kids, probably should get married just in case. If you're in the military or want to lower your taxes, you should marry for the money.

Love on the other hand...just love. Celebrate your love, but a contract is not a celebration.
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