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 4ms4me
Joined: 4/24/2010
Msg: 102
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Steubenville rape casePage 4 of 10    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10)

Yes, they would share responsibility. Same as if they got robbed/mugged/stumbled off a cliff/wandered into a strange house/etc.

Disagree. I don't care if somone is drunk, they are not legitimate targets for predators. Especially if those predators are disguising themselves as friends, as happened to this girl.

If someone is going to get drunk enough to pass out, then should go do it while hanging out with some friends that are trusted to watch over them

This girl was with friends, or so she thought. How was she to know that they weren't to be trusted? Yet, even though she's behaved as she should according to you, you still think she needs to take some blame for what those other people did.

If I (a guy) goes into a downtown area alone and drinking and passes out over a barrel in a dark alley behind a bar and they rape me

Although, as has already been pointed out - one is actually safer with strangers than with friends/family when it comes to assault and sexual assaults.
 whippedboi
Joined: 3/12/2013
Msg: 103
Steubenville rape case
Posted: 3/28/2013 10:52:35 AM

Those boys should spend a month volunteering at a rape crisis center and need only a day in jail with Bubba.
That'll teach 'em


so you apparently advocate anal rape on the perp's as a way to teach people that rape is wrong?

seems analogous to hitting your child as punishment for bullying a smaller child to show them that a bigger person hitting a smaller person is wrong

not that they should not be punished, they broke the law of course..just seems a bit odd..the people who gloat about "Bubba" teaching them a lesson

what are the real facts here? some people say the girl was anally raped but the judge's conclusions at trial, that I read say the perps put their fingers in her vagina (still sexual assault when done without consent as was the case here)
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 104
Steubenville rape case
Posted: 3/28/2013 10:58:41 AM

Yes, they would share responsibility. Same as if they got robbed/mugged/stumbled off a cliff/wandered into a strange house/etc.


This is the strawman...it in no form represents an analogy to a kid getting drunk at a party in the home of a friend or aquaintance.



If someone is going to get drunk enough to pass out, then should go do it while hanging out with some friends that are trusted to watch over them


This girl was with friends, or so she thought. How was she to know that they weren't to be trusted? Yet, even though she's behaved as she should according to you, you still think she needs to take some blame for what those other people did.


What that first quote to support the girl who was with friends and at a friend or aquaintances house????Was he debating both sides of the discussion like he was a proponent of both sides???


If I (a guy) goes into a downtown area alone and drinking and passes out over a barrel in a dark alley behind a bar and they rape me


This is another strawman and bears no resemblance of an anaolgy to the facts in Steubenville.
 CharminC
Joined: 2/19/2011
Msg: 105
Steubenville rape case
Posted: 3/28/2013 11:44:24 AM
Whippedboi, you failed to include what I said beforehand... they need to spend a month at a rape crisis center.


so you apparently advocate anal rape on the perp's as a way to teach people that rape is wrong?
^^
Where in the world did you gather from my post that I want to those boys raped to teach people that rape is wrong???
I said THEY and THEM. Did I say everyone?!!!

Learn to read better.
 whippedboi
Joined: 3/12/2013
Msg: 106
Steubenville rape case
Posted: 3/28/2013 11:47:26 AM
^^
and need only a day in jail with Bubba.
That'll teach 'em


maybe the 'implication' of that comment was different than I read. if so sorry

when "MOST" people talk about "Bubba" in jail/prison, " teaching someone"..they are implying the inmates will be anally raped by 'him'..(or "Bubbas") and that will "teach them"..(with gloating & glee)

but you could have meant something else? (possibly)
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 107
Steubenville rape case
Posted: 3/28/2013 12:07:57 PM

but you could have meant something else?


Could it have been??? Irony...Sarcasm...bad humor??? The one thing it was not...is placing blame on a teen age girl, who got drunk, for being responsible for her own rape...which is exactly the "implication" one makes when they claim there is share responsibility for the Steubenville rape.
 whippedboi
Joined: 3/12/2013
Msg: 108
Steubenville rape case
Posted: 3/28/2013 12:11:43 PM
^ yes you have shown your good feminist colors, nothing short of death by firing squad (preferably at dawn) for the convicted boys would underline otherwise?

a "discussion" does not mean that anyone not toeing your line is 'blaming the girl'
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 109
Steubenville rape case
Posted: 3/28/2013 12:22:00 PM
^ yes you have shown your good feminist colors, nothing short of death by firing squad (preferably at dawn) for the convicted boys would underline otherwise?


Seriously??? Go back pages in this thread and quote where I’ve said anything about what sentence these “poor boys” should get…you can do it, and while you’re at it, maybe, try to add to the discussion, a little content based on merit to the discussion…


a "discussion" does not mean that anyone not toeing your line is 'blaming the girl'


Writing one line of text is hardly a discussion…it is generally a trolling attempt used as a means of getting a rise out of the other posters…who actually add content and further the discussion.

I can generally spot a troller from a mile away.
 whippedboi
Joined: 3/12/2013
Msg: 110
Steubenville rape case
Posted: 3/28/2013 2:24:29 PM
OK this case was bad, what I don't get is how people are acting as though it was the "worst" such case ever in the USA?

lots of heat, emotion, overwrought anger..it was "digital penetration" while she was drunk


I strongly suspect that is its because she was a WHITE middle-class kid in a largely "white" community.

once again the old bugbear of racism rears its ugly head even among the 'enlightened' liberals & feminists.

Bet there's been many cases in the past few years, far worse, with vaginal/anal multiple rape where the victim(s) were black females in basically black neighborhoods,..that have got no ink compared to this case, no discussion among the white liberals, no overwrought emotion on POF and other discussion boards..
 MsMaggieMay
Joined: 2/2/2013
Msg: 111
Steubenville rape case
Posted: 3/28/2013 2:33:00 PM

so you apparently advocate anal rape on the perp's as a way to teach people that rape is wrong?


She may not advocate that but I certainly do. Whether any of us want to admit it or not justice is always about revenge. Jail is a horrible place. It has nothing to do with rehabilitation and everything to do with revenge. One of the men who was involved in those gang rapes in India was found dead in his cell after being gang raped. I feel no pity or mercy for him. He deserved it. The only thing I feel bad about is that it didn't happen to all of them.
 whippedboi
Joined: 3/12/2013
Msg: 112
Steubenville rape case
Posted: 3/28/2013 2:42:28 PM
sure the ones in India, gang rape and murder.. maybe a little heavy for fingering a drunk girl

thus rape and murder in the cells will be 'correct' punishment for burglary, marijuana possession, etc. as well?

you don't think the inmates are only going to apply an eye for an eye, punish the "worst" ? only rape rapists, only kill murderers?

actually it's more likely they will pick on the weakest among the, but Jesus will bless you for your stance

I'm sort of glad wrongfully convicted people like Steven Truscott, Donald Marshall, David Milgaard, Guy Paul Morin, James Driskell, Anthony Hanemaayer, Robert Baltovich (among many others)

were not raped (that we know of) or killed in prison, each was in prison for over a decade convicted of crimes (rape & murder) of which DNA and/or confessions by the true perps later exonerated them

each would have been prime targets, being convicted of rape and in some cases murder, in some cases of young girls

but they'd probably deserve it in your view, anyone who gets picked up by the police "must be" an evil person ?
 CharminC
Joined: 2/19/2011
Msg: 113
Steubenville rape case
Posted: 3/28/2013 3:29:43 PM
Whippedboi, I highly suggest you research as much of the Stubenville case as possible before you add anymore of your two cents.
This thread barely covers it.
I've read about the entire timeline from when the girl arrived at the first party to the morning after. Read the texts afterwards from her, the ex bf, the boys. Read about the televised interviews, the coaches, police chief and officers (some who are all related to each other) and much more therefore my feelings towards this case is based on actual facts.

OK this case was bad, what I don't get is how people are acting as though it was the "worst" such case ever in the USA?
^^
Show where someone here has said its the worst ever in usa??!

lots of heat, emotion, overwrought anger..it was "digital penetration" while she was drunk
^^
Until happens to one of your own

It seems to me you're just fetching from the few details in this thread, adding your own stuff trying to stir up shyt that doesn't even apply to this case. BTW.... in all that I've read elsewhere, no word of racism is spread... none. Don't throw that card buddy.
 whippedboi
Joined: 3/12/2013
Msg: 114
Steubenville rape case
Posted: 3/28/2013 3:34:47 PM
^^ what did you read about Guy Paul Morin for the 12 years until DNA cleared him? or David Milgaard for 25? or any of the others? nothing but bad , right? what the police say is not always the entire story. sorry I'm not your buddy though, but if you wish to get all upset about this one case from the USA it's certainly your right. let's ignore the hundreds of far worse cases on Canadian reserves while we're at it because American girls with media access are more important
 MsMaggieMay
Joined: 2/2/2013
Msg: 115
Steubenville rape case
Posted: 3/28/2013 4:30:11 PM
Whippedboi I don't care and I don't believe in Jesus. Please keep your bible thumping to yourself.
 CharminC
Joined: 2/19/2011
Msg: 116
Steubenville rape case
Posted: 3/28/2013 5:01:13 PM
^ what did you read about Guy Paul Morin for the 12 years until DNA cleared him? or David Milgaard for 25? or any of the others? nothing but bad , right? what the police say is not always the entire story. sorry I'm not your buddy though, but if you wish to get all upset about this one case from the USA it's certainly your right. let's ignore the hundreds of far worse cases on Canadian reserves while we're at it because American girls with media access are more important


^^
What's the title of this thread?

Can you just stick to that?..........buddy
 BigBadNIrish
Joined: 1/31/2011
Msg: 117
Steubenville rape case
Posted: 3/28/2013 5:56:48 PM

I strongly suspect that is its because she was a WHITE middle-class kid in a largely "white" community.

once again the old bugbear of racism rears its ugly head even among the 'enlightened' liberals & feminists.

Bet there's been many cases in the past few years, far worse, with vaginal/anal multiple rape where the victim(s) were black females in basically black neighborhoods,..that have got no ink compared to this case, no discussion among the white liberals, no overwrought emotion on POF and other discussion boards..


Hmmm...there has been much press on this case in the news...both from liberal quarters and conservative quarters...yet, without exception there has been no accusation of racism...till now...hey, good try though...keep at it...slap enough stuf against the wall and something might stick...

Let me see...first feminist...next racist...I'm sure that soon to follow will be socialist, communist, nazi...yada yada yada...because when an argument has no merit...make sure you fall back on name calling.
 Midwest_Southwest
Joined: 9/9/2012
Msg: 118
Steubenville rape case
Posted: 3/29/2013 10:02:19 AM
NDTFan:

Perhaps we'd be better of teaching our kids not to be the kind of people others have to "keep themselves safe" from.

And we can start by not making easy excuses for rapists, murderers and the like to point to .... or pretending that the victim had "some responsibility" for what they choose to do to them.


+1

We can’t teach our children things that we don’t believe and live ourselves and that’s where certain factions in Steubenville have compounded the horror. They "taught" these boys to be this way and then they protected and protect it, as some of the press has as well. The shielding, excuse-making, diversion, parsing and equivocating has been really disgusting- and it is what they believe in: “well, yeah, the boys shouldn’t have done that, but….” That's really awful.
 4ms4me
Joined: 4/24/2010
Msg: 119
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History
Steubenville rape case
Posted: 3/29/2013 10:45:43 AM

each was in prison for over a decade convicted of crimes (rape & murder) of which DNA and/or confessions by the true perps later exonerated them

each would have been prime targets, being convicted of rape and in some cases murder, in some cases of young girls

but they'd probably deserve it in your view, anyone who gets picked up by the police "must be" an evil person ?

True enough, people have been falsely convicted of crimes, served time and even suffered the death penalty. However, in the case being discussed in THIS thread, there is video evidence, eyewitness evidence and text evidence - it's not circumstantial, with the nearest guy(s) being assumed guilty and evidence slanted (or manufactured) to prove that assumption.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 120
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History
Steubenville rape case
Posted: 3/29/2013 11:22:09 AM

True enough, people have been falsely convicted of crimes, served time and even suffered the death penalty.


Can you identify any person who was executed in this country and later proven to have been innocent of the crime he was executed for? I don't know of anyone that's happened to.
 4ms4me
Joined: 4/24/2010
Msg: 121
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History
Steubenville rape case
Posted: 3/29/2013 12:01:56 PM
Can you identify any person who was executed in this country and later proven to have been innocent of the crime he was executed for? I don't know of anyone that's happened to.


1. Cameron Todd Willingham—In 1992, Willingham was convicted of arson murder in Texas. He was believed to have intentionally set a fire that killed his three kids. In 2004, he was put to death. Unfortunately, the Texas Forensic Science Commission later found that the evidence was misinterpreted, and they concluded that none of the evidence used against Willingham was valid. As it turns out, the fire really was accidental.

2. Ruben Cantu—Cantu was 17 at the time the crime he was alleged of committing took place. Cantu was convicted of capital murder, and in 1993, the Texas teen was executed. About 12 years after his death, investigations show that Cantu likely didn’t commit the murder. The lone eyewitness recanted his testimony, and Cantu’s co-defendant later admitted he allowed his friend to be falsely accused. He says Cantu wasn’t even there the night of the murder.

3. Larry Griffin—Griffin was put to death in 1995 for the 1981 murder of Quintin Moss, a Missouri drug dealer. Griffin always maintained his innocence, and now, evidence seems to indicate he was telling the truth. The first police officer on the scene now says the eyewitness account was false, even though the officer supported the claims during the trial. Another eyewitness who was wounded during the attack was never contacted during the trial, and he says Griffin wasn’t present at the crime scene that night.

4. Carlos DeLuna—In 1989, DeLuna was executed for the stabbing of a Texas convenience store clerk. Almost 20 years later, Chicago Tribune uncovered evidence that shows DeLuna was likely innocent. The evidence showed that Carlos Hernandez, a man who even confessed to the murder many times, actually did the crime.

5. David Wayne Spence—Spence was put to death in 1997 for the murder of three teenagers in Texas. He was supposedly hired by a convenience store clerk to kill someone else, but he allegedly killed the wrong people by mistake. The supervising police lieutenant said “I do not think David Spence committed this crime.” The lead homicide detective agreed, saying “My opinion is that David Spence was innocent. Nothing from the investigation ever led us to any evidence that he was involved.”

6. Jesse Tafero—In 1976, Tafero was convicted of murdering a state trooper. He and Sonia Jacobs were both sentenced to death for the crime. The main evidence used to convict them was testimony by someone else who was involved in the crime, ex-convict Walter Rhodes. Rhodes gave this testimony in exchange for a life sentence. In 1990, Tafero was put to death. Two years later, his companion Jacobs was released due to a lack of evidence…the same evidence used to put Tafero to death.

7 & 8. Thomas Griffin and Meeks Griffin— The oldest case on this list dates back to 1915. The Griffin brothers, two black men, were convicted of the murder of a white man. The reason they were convicted is because Monk Stevenson, another black man suspected of committing the murder, pointed to the brothers as having been responsible. He later admitted the reason he blamed them is because they were wealthy, and he assumed they had the money to beat the charges. The Griffin brothers were completely innocent, but they were put to death nonetheless.

Cited from: 8 People Who Were Executed and Later Found Innocent - NakedLaw by Avvo.com http://nakedlaw.avvo.com/crime/8-people-who-were-executed-and-later-found-innocent.html#ixzz2OxMS0wSz

http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/The_Innocent_and_the_Death_Penalty.php
Eighteen people have been proven innocent and exonerated by DNA testing in the United States after serving time on death row. They were convicted in 11 states and served a combined 229 years in prison – including 202 years on death row – for crimes they didn’t commit.

Also from the Innocence Project:
There have been 303 post-conviction DNA exonerations in the United States.

• The first DNA exoneration took place in 1989. Exonerations have been won in 36 states; since 2000, there have been 236 exonerations.


It doesn't take a genius to figure out that a signficant number of people must have died for crimes they didn't commit.
 OMG!WTF!
Joined: 12/3/2007
Msg: 122
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History
Steubenville rape case
Posted: 3/29/2013 12:07:17 PM

Can you identify any person who was executed in this country and later proven to have been innocent of the crime he was executed for? I don't know of anyone that's happened to.


You'd have to be fairly dull witted to think that it hasn't happened. 143 people have been freed from death row since 1973. About 15 people have been executed and are since believed to be innocent. I remember one case where two guys were convicted of murder, one guy was given a life sentence for his testimony against the other guy who got the death penalty. Then a couple years after the guy's execution, the guy with the life sentence was released due to lack of evidence....the same evidence that resulted in the execution of the first guy. Do you think maybe you're not aware of this happening because no one bothers to provide vetted retrial evidence after someone had been executed?
 whippedboi
Joined: 3/12/2013
Msg: 123
Steubenville rape case
Posted: 3/29/2013 6:30:39 PM

Can you identify any person who was executed in this country and later proven to have been innocent of the crime he was executed for? I don't know of anyone that's happened to.


well yeah a bit of a Catch -22 there, no?

AFTER they are executed they just go down in history as a guilty person who was executed. not much time & effort spent trying to show they are innocent after that- sort of pointless, no?


in fact the State has a built-in incentive to suppress any exculpatory evidence, and or try to paint hem as guilty- a bit embarrassing to be executing innocent people

just because someone hasn't been IDENTIFIED as such doesn't mean it didn't or enver happened

but, just some 'loser' not you, so *yawn* who cares, right?
 drinkthesunwithmyface
Joined: 3/27/2012
Msg: 124
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History
Steubenville rape case
Posted: 3/29/2013 9:35:47 PM
I like how Anonymous involved itself.

...the Dark Knight will continue to rise...the humanist storm is coming...repent now, byatches.
 matchlight
Joined: 1/31/2009
Msg: 125
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History
Steubenville rape case
Posted: 3/30/2013 10:04:56 AM
#127
The citation about DNA exonerations of condemned prisoners, even if true, doesn't address the question I posed. It's well known that people have served time in prison for crimes they didn't commit.


It doesn't take a genius to figure out that a signficant number of people must have died for crimes they didn't commit.


"Must have" is the not the same as "did"--and it also doesn't take a genius to jump to conclusions. I'm sure a lot of people are persuaded by claims like the ones you cited--but I'm not. For me, it takes a lot more than a newspaper report, another criminal's later statements, the opinions of a couple detectives involved, or a witness' later recantation of testimony to negate all the detailed evidence of guilt that in each case was presented and carefully analyzed not only at trial, but by more than one appellate court.

Most murderers never even serve time, let alone get executed. The standard of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt is very hard to meet, the verdict has to be unanimous, and the appeals often seem endless. If the Denzel Washington movie were all anyone had to go on, he'd be absolutely convinced Rubin Carter was wrongly imprisoned for murdering three people. But then if the jury's verdict were all anyone had to go on, he'd be sure O.J. Simpson never butchered his wife and her friend.
 whippedboi
Joined: 3/12/2013
Msg: 126
Steubenville rape case
Posted: 3/30/2013 10:20:57 AM
despite the portrayal in some movies of police and prosecuting attorneys as angels, òne would have to be rather naive & gullible to think sure there have not been at least a few cases where they were cynical enough to suppress exculpatory evidence to ensure a `win`even before a verdict, and much more likely, AFTER a verdict, to support their reputations. or maybe when people enroll in police college or become DAs & assistant DAs they become `perfect`honest people somehow..

as to racism the very fact that this one case has received so much attention because the victim was a white girl and one of the jailed perps was a *gasp* black boy seems a little telling - when there are hundreds of far worse cases each year in the US that get little or no media attention. do you think every racist wears a sign on their head saying `hi, I`m a racist` or announces the fact publicly..the only way it can be shown is if someone says `hey I`m a racist, how are you`.
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