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 RussArtLover
Joined: 5/13/2010
Msg: 386
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Is Jesus the son of God Page 14 of 19    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19)
I think "Sins of the fathers" has to do with laughing when his kid bullies another kid. Gives his son the approval to raise his kids like that. Perpetuating a nightmare to feed war machines.

It's just a bit of perceptual wisdom found everywhere. Religion just incorporates it poetically.
 Aristotle_Amadopolis
Joined: 12/8/2011
Msg: 387
Is Jesus the son of God
Posted: 3/1/2013 4:07:56 PM

I can't be the only one to find the whole use of vicarious attonement immoral.

Nope, but you have to take into account that is there actually was such a thing as god, one would have to recognize it as a pretty sick **stard.

To create us and allow the type of crap to go on and both do nothing to prevent it with regards to our design and also not stepping in to correct it, could only be the result of a twisted mind or shear incompetence.
 RussArtLover
Joined: 5/13/2010
Msg: 388
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Is Jesus the son of God
Posted: 3/1/2013 4:17:08 PM
That is exactly why some people pray sooooo hard. Deep down they hope they're god will wise up.
 melodyof_k
Joined: 5/2/2012
Msg: 389
Is Jesus the son of God
Posted: 3/1/2013 10:17:13 PM
Paul K...
i feel that you are completely wrong in what you say about scripture translation.
I did not say interpretation.
any language being translated must be translated by those who know the language and all of its nuances best.
tell me...why is the KJV and others translated differently....when there is only one correct translation of the exact words...word for word?


so....it doesnt matter what we do in life then?
Jesus died...so we confess him...we go to heaven..
if we dont and we have been a good person we go to hell.
so rapists get into heaven at last minute...
even if they rape someone a few minutes before they die and have also murdered ppl....as long as they say words..
yes I believe upon the name of Jesus...that he died for my sins.
how fake is that?
anyone can say those words.

I dont want to be in that kind of heaven with Manson, Ted Bundy, Jim Jones, ummmm who else...
several other repented serial killers too. I could go and google to find out how many repented...just to look good, get out of prison.
while my mom and dad cant get into the pearly gates because they do not confess that Jesus is Lord.

ok...I apologize for saying you did not study. but what and who are you studying with. you are believing by faith not facts. and that is fine. that what religion is....faith without facts.

I believe in God too.
but not in religious teachings. and I cannot fathom how one could believe that God...who knows what each person will do....created us to burn in hell if we dont accept the grace of Jesus....because God Knew that people would not all accept Jesus. I guess you are saying that no Buddist , Jew, Hindu, or other faiths get into heaven? thats a hell of alot of people going to hell. Your Jesus send them there.
 Blueberryeggos
Joined: 1/24/2012
Msg: 390
Is Jesus the son of God
Posted: 3/2/2013 12:17:02 AM
So lets say Jebus(thank you Homer Simpson) is the son and the way into heaven, heres my question....

At what point did this take place? Im mean as soon as he died on the cross or the third day after? Which brings me to the point, all these other people living at the time and after who had no knowledge at all about him, are they all in hell for not knowing? Natives of North/South America, Africa, Australia and most of Asia had no concept at all of a savior for hundreds or over a thousand years. The get to roast away for eternity?If they do ,does that really make it righteous...."oh sorry dude, never heard of me? Too bad enjoy hell"
 looking4her2335
Joined: 1/23/2013
Msg: 393
Is Jesus the son of God
Posted: 3/2/2013 12:13:31 PM

One of the very reasons why Jesus came was to supplant the old testament method of reaching God, which was through the priests in the temple, to one where mankind can go directly.

That doesnt make it any less immoral. It makes it more convoluted and absolutely silly though. To think, a god, who literally is supposed to have created EVERYTHING in reality, needs to send his son, who is himself, to earth to die as a blood sacrifice to satisfy his father's (who is also himself) desire for atonement.

Let that sink in. You may have missed my point. Its immoral for anyone to claim the right to forgive people who have done me wrong. Furthermore, its atrocious to accept the sacrifice of an innocent as repayment for a debt incurred by a guilty populace. I mean its so asinine, I understand why its taught to children, who don't know any better but to listen and believe what their parents and priests teach them.
 looking4her2335
Joined: 1/23/2013
Msg: 395
Is Jesus the son of God
Posted: 3/2/2013 12:50:18 PM

From what you wrote, I am concluding that you believe that I believe that there needs to be an intermediary to God on our behalf.

No lol. No, I don't. I think the very basic tenant of christianity, that of Jesus dying on the cross for the sins of all mankind, is immoral, and silly. I don't think there is a god, and I definately don't think the NT is indicitive of any historical event.

I think you have missed the point, Jesus dying on the cross, is vicarious atonement. It's immoral. Can't be...any clearer than that.
 looking4her2335
Joined: 1/23/2013
Msg: 397
Is Jesus the son of God
Posted: 3/2/2013 3:25:13 PM
What Jesus' death on the cross did, at least in general terms of christianity, was to STOP what you call vicarious atonement.
Thats like saying you can put fire out with fire. I suppose it must be lost, because you seem to say you understand it. I know the Jews were required by the levitical writings to sacrifice for a myriad of things (apparently human sacrifice was allowed as well...since you know God played that funny joke on Abraham to see if he really believed or not)..I know this.

But how then can you say that Jesus' act was a way to end scapegoating, by...scapegoating? Again this goes back to how convoluted people will make their beliefs.


Your argument that Jesus' death on the cross is vacarious atonement, and thus immoral, and that a GOD could not be immoral, therefore there is no God..

I mean, that's not why I don't believe in any gods. But is that really the question? If there was a god, it wouldnt have written silly books like the bible, or the quran. It certainly wouldnt require convoluted methods of atonement for wrongs done. Its just unconvincing.
 drinkthesunwithmyface
Joined: 3/27/2012
Msg: 399
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Is Jesus the son of God
Posted: 3/2/2013 4:30:29 PM

Is Jesus the son of God


No...really...I want someone to tell me - Who is "jesus"? And so what is meant by asking if he's the son of god? Oh, and who's "god"?
 looking4her2335
Joined: 1/23/2013
Msg: 400
Is Jesus the son of God
Posted: 3/2/2013 4:33:04 PM

There was no call for human sacrifice in the OT at all, because, correct me if I am wrong, it was GOD who stopped Abraham from sacrificing his own son.

Who asked Abraham to do it in the first place? yahweh. Actually it was an angel who stopped it. It could be said that the angel was acting because of the will of yahweh..it doesnt matter...this dude was going to kill his son, and would have had it not been for the angel. I'm sorry but Charles Manson is sitting in jail right now for tellling his followers to kill people...if a human court can find Manson complicit, then yahweh is just as guilty.

I'm sorry if I find a story about a god people should be worshipping, testing someone by telling them to kill their kid, abhorrent. Call me silly but I don't care who it is...Jesus, a voice in the night, a burning bush, an angellic vision...I'm not binding my kid and putting a knife to them. But I'm also not a bronze age savage either.


However, you have drawn some conclusions from reading the Bible, or from being told what the Bible says, that really don't make sense.

Reading. I've read the bible numerous times. Thats not me being prideful, I'm just not some moron who hasnt actually cracked the book...I have.

As to your final blurb, I understand it. I understand the theological reasons behind it. "For all have sinned and fallen short of the grace of god", "For god so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son so that all who believe in him sall not perish but have eternal life", "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." Yeah I get it. I'm just confused as to how people can even look at the situation...a human sacrifice, and think its moral. One would think, after the abraham/issac debacle, yahweh would think differently of even mentioning the sacrifice of a human...guess not. This isnt some instance of "non believers not being able to understand the word" its an instance of an non believer finding the word unfit for rational thinking people.

You seem well spoken, tell me, how does it feel to worship a god that requires, even if its just once, a human sacrifice (of an innocent mind you) to clean the slate? Let alone the fact that, said human sacrifice is really himself...? Just a question.
 roadrunner2525
Joined: 2/12/2013
Msg: 402
Is Jesus the son of God
Posted: 3/2/2013 5:21:56 PM
I believe that Jesus lived on this earth and preached to men. I believe that he sought out god but I don't believe he was the son of god anymore than I am the son of god. I follow his basic teachings because the golden rule makes sense to me. I also believe that most people don't try to believe that a higher, powerful, magical spirit is watching over us and can help us. The bible goes back to the ages of kings. The kings had the ability to keep it in tact and they used it as a tool for tax collection. It wasn't only the law formed by the king to have to pay taxes, it was a religious consideration that people felt obligated to pay. The rest of the bible looks more like story book than reality. The whole idea of Adam and Eve, the apple and the discovery of sin. I think we were all born in god's image and that there is an afterlife that probably resembles heaven more than hell. When I was younger the preachers always preached hell and damnation. Today they try to be creative and collect as much money from people as they can. It's the worlds oldest Ponzi Scheme. Doesn't mean that the church doesn't do a lot of good, it just means that they will never get a dime from me.
 drinkthesunwithmyface
Joined: 3/27/2012
Msg: 403
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Is Jesus the son of God
Posted: 3/2/2013 5:25:59 PM
(What if, since jesus was god, and was here to sacrifice himself to "save" us, etc, it was him saying to us "I'm so sorry. Here, take it out on me, beat me to death"...and us "accepting his gift" is accepting his apology? And so instead of us getting back in his good-graces...it's him getting back in our good-graces, if we decide to let it be so?)
 looking4her2335
Joined: 1/23/2013
Msg: 404
Is Jesus the son of God
Posted: 3/2/2013 5:27:27 PM

To answer your question correctly, I would have to say that I wouldn't know how it feels.......... You are taking that whole story out of context. You call it a debacle, I call it a lesson that was going to be taught, a test that was taken and passed. God told Abraham to scarifice his son as a test to see if Abraham REALLY did believe in God. Abraham attempted to do as told, but was stopped, and then what did God say............. "Now I know that you fear God"......... it was a test, not something that would be happening on a daily basis. I am surprised you can't see the difference. It seems like you are taking that occurence completely out of context, and riding it as far as you can, when there is no context for it in the way you are taking it. A debacle? Hardly.

Okay okay, I understand that you don't think its a human sacrifice. In act was it a human sacrifice? No, I know it wasn't. He didnt actually kill his son, I get that. However, am I wrong in saying that its deplorable that yahweh would even think to ask someone to kill their own son as a test of their faith? If you had children, and god told you to kill one of them as proof that you "fear" god? I'd fear god if it told me to kill my child that's for sure. For a supposed "just" and "loving" god, this a stray from the path, but even a quick reading of the OT, its not hard to see that its par for the course.

As a matter of fact, unlike how you suggest, I did pick a "tougher" subject. The "human sacrifice ritual" I'm referring to, is not the binding of Issac, its the supposed pinnacle of Jesus' supposed ministry on earth. His death on the cross was a human sacrifice ritual, just as savage as any Mayan or Aztec one committed to appease their gods. Jesus was killed, to appease Yahweh's thirst for repayment of a debt. Jesus died so that all may live through him...the idea that his death, would therefore impart grace and salvation upon man is deplorable. That's what I'm getting at. Forget issac, Jesus' death was a human sacrifice. Thats immoral. What other subjects would you suggest require more study? The fact that the bible is historically ignorant? That it's scientifically ignorant as well? Would you like to discuss wether Jesus was a historical person? I mean, I'm down...
 melodyof_k
Joined: 5/2/2012
Msg: 405
Is Jesus the son of God
Posted: 3/2/2013 10:07:36 PM
Paul K
first I apologize for suggesting that you didnt study.

I want to go back a bit :

A professional Translator must be an expert in the language being translated as well as the language he/she is translating it into.
In the case of the Torah (OT) it is translated word for word.

Anyone may form their own Interpretation (not translation).
However, the Christian bible is not a word for word translation.
In fact, it even omits and/or misplaces entire sentences.
Therefore, many readers of such translations form false and mistaken Interpretations.

So, as I am not expert , I would not attempt to translate.
However those who have translated the Torah word for word have correctly accomplished this task.
How does one know?
Simple,
if one knows how to read Hebrew, there are Torahs (OT) written with the English word directly beneath each Hebrew word.

Also, every Torah written in Hebrew has the Exact same words.
But not all translated Christian bibles are the same.
how can that be?
Perhaps they not know how to translate correctly?
or maybe they are not translating because they are interpreting to fit their NT into the OT. which means that they are grasping at straws to make Jesus appear to be Messiah by Torah standards.

now, at the bottom pages of the Torah are interpretations by different rabbis.
Those may differ.
But the words of Torah Always remain the same.


 melodyof_k
Joined: 5/2/2012
Msg: 406
Is Jesus the son of God
Posted: 3/2/2013 10:33:32 PM
Paul, you wrote:


If I was the one compiling the Bible, I would not have the OT included, and would have included many of the writings that were left out. The OT really is an old Hebrew writing, and serves its purpose as a foundation to explain the history of ancient times, but has to be taken "with a grain of salt"

did you really write that and know what you are saying?

Christianity is based upon the NT being the fullfillment of the OT (which you would not include)
Since Christianity stands upon Jesus being the Messiah, it fails. Jesus did not fullfill any of the requirements written in the OT of being a Messiah.
And where is the trinity in all of this?

The writers of the NT, written long after the OT, were attempting to try to 'fit' Jesus into the Jewish role of Savior. Of which there is none anyway.
The writers changed the true translation, and they failed to show that Jesus was anyone more than a man. any son of God more than we are all the children of God.

the reason the translators Had to change it was because Jesus did Not fit the role.
Having once been a Christian myself, I see how they took the OT writings out of context.

One cannot quote one sentence of the OT and say "see , this is what Jesus did"
ummmm so did many ride into Jerusalem on a donkey.
and what are some more of these things Jesus supposedly fullfilled?
if you like I look them up and make a list and tell you why they were not fullfilled.
The sentence must be read within its context....meaning the entire chapter...in order to understand what it is referring to.
as in the virgin birth.
no where in the OT does it say the Messiah will be born of a virgin.
the true word is young maiden. there is a completely different Hebrew word for virgin.
so I ask...was it intentional mistranslation...or done out of ignorance of Hebrew language and nuances.?

Which world is the world of peace in that Messiah is required to bring to be considered Messiah?
also...the Messiah is not to be sacrificed for people to believe on him to go to heaven.
nothing like that in the OT.

The Jewish sacrifices of unblemished animals had nothing to do with going to heaven or getting close to God.
they were for atonement for certain sins.

I think that what Christians are calling salvation (from hell I presume) or to get into heaven...is really a scare tactic used by the church to keep people from thinking for themselves.
 59thShadeofGrey
Joined: 9/25/2012
Msg: 408
Is Jesus the son of God
Posted: 3/3/2013 5:45:37 AM

The original texts the Bible is based upon...


We have exactly ZERO original texts of NT books, much less the significantly more ancient OT. Nobody on this planet knows exactly what those original texts said, and so everything said about them is conjecture.
 drinkthesunwithmyface
Joined: 3/27/2012
Msg: 410
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Is Jesus the son of God
Posted: 3/3/2013 8:58:13 AM
Anybody? Hello?

Pretend I'm a little kid, and in that oblivious ignorant innocent way, I ask "who is jesus? Who is god? What do you mean is he the son of?"
 melodyof_k
Joined: 5/2/2012
Msg: 411
Is Jesus the son of God
Posted: 3/3/2013 9:37:00 AM
And when talking about "what G-d said was" I want as reliable a translation as I can find so like the 'literal' translations (Young's et al,) or Orthodox Jewish Bible (not to be confused with an actual Jewish Tanakh.) Both available on biblegateway.com


Jeffrey,
the majority of Orthodox and Chassidic Jews who do not read and/or comprehend Hebrew (you need to do both)
use the Stone Edition Tanach.
Torah, Prophets,writings

Those who do read and understand Hebrew use a Torah without the English translation on the side or word for word under each word. its all in Hebrew.

do you agree that the words are properly translated and not taken out of context as the Christian translators did?

also what do you mean by an Orthodox Jewish Bible is not to be confused with the actual Jewish Tanach?
are you referring to Chumash and Tanach?
or are you explaining that we are not using the actual Torah scroll from the shul in our homes?

todrinkthesunwithmyface: it would depend upon who the child is.
I would most likely bring him to his parents to ask the question .
I have respect for most people...and i would not want to interfere with the family as I feel that is crossing a boundary.

MrMonks...the Hebrew bible did not mistranslate the name Jesus because Jesus was not written about in the OT. and yes...much of both testaments were lost. but we have a lot to go by. I dont believe God wrote it.
 _babblefish
Joined: 9/23/2011
Msg: 412
Is Jesus the son of God
Posted: 3/3/2013 10:30:49 AM
No...really...I want someone to tell me - Who is "jesus"? And so what is meant by asking if he's the son of god? Oh, and who's "god"?


*waves arm, i'll play;

hey-zeus #1 of mythology is a composite of many:

The jesus who was Christos, "Anointed," took his title from Middle-Eastern saviour-gods like Adonis and
Tammuz, born of the virgin sea-goddess Aphrodite-Maria (Myrrha), or Ishtar-Mari (hebrew Mariamne).

Earlier biblical versions of the same hero were Joshua son of Nun (Exodus 33:11), Jehu son of Nimshi, whom
Elijah anointed as a sacred king ( 1 Kings 19:16) and Yeshua son of Marah.

The book of Enoch said in the 2nd century BC that Yeshua or Jesus was the secret name given by god to
the son of man (a persian title), and that it meant "Yahweh saves."

In northern Israel the name was written Ieu. It was the same as Leud or Jeud, the "only-begotten son"
dressed in royal robes and sacrificed by the god-king Isra-El.

Greek versions of the name were Iasion, Jason, or Iasus --the name of Demeter's sacrificed consorts, killed
by Father Zeus after the fertility rite that coupled him with his mother.

The literal meaning of the name was "healing moon-man," fitting the hebrew version of Jesus as a son
of Mary, the Almah or moon-maiden.


hey-zeus #2 was a carpenter and since no literate person of his own time mentioned him in any writings
he obviously made little or no impression.

"who is god ?" - someone on a inter-galatic kegger
 drinkthesunwithmyface
Joined: 3/27/2012
Msg: 413
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Is Jesus the son of God
Posted: 3/3/2013 5:39:23 PM
^ ^ ^ -chuckle-

My little kid is saying "uh...what?"
 DameWrite
Joined: 2/27/2010
Msg: 415
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Is Jesus the son of God
Posted: 3/4/2013 11:38:10 PM
jesus wasn't the son of god because there is no god. He quite well could have been the son of cleopatra though.
 RussArtLover
Joined: 5/13/2010
Msg: 416
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Is Jesus the son of God
Posted: 3/4/2013 11:52:27 PM


Anybody? Hello?

Pretend I'm a little kid, and in that oblivious ignorant innocent way, I ask "who is jesus? Who is god? What do you mean is he the son of?"

Jesus was a carpenters son born a long long time ago. He could build anything. One day he started talking to animals and they told him the secrets of the universe. He tried really hard to tell people but they all thought he was crazy so they hurt him bad, he even died. We read about his adventures to learn from the past and try not to be so dumb as those meanies.

I dunno what God is yet but I hear good things about him. (most of the time)
 melodyof_k
Joined: 5/2/2012
Msg: 417
Is Jesus the son of God
Posted: 3/4/2013 11:56:59 PM
mrtonks

I dont believe in the Bible (OT or NT) as being written by God or the word of God.
I believe in a creator, in God, a higher power than us.

I was talking about translation vs interpretation of Bibles.
as I know how to translate Hebrew and it was translated word for word (under each word)..by scholars in both or more languages.
I would never attempt to translate it, but since I can read it...I can see the word by word translation and on the other side of the page of the Torah...the sentence in English. and that is also how I understand what many words mean.
I was mainly writing this to Paul K for his seemingly to me... incomprehension of how a bible is translated.

I do not believe that God wanted any wars. we as humans have messed things up where we could have used the intelligence given to us by God for more good than bad.
instead of feeding the starving of this world ,we spend our money on war machines.

I do not think Jesus was the son of God...simply because the NT must fullfull the OT to stand.
I dont have to believe in either of them as true...but i do know the religions and what they are about.

what do you mean there was no translation for Jesus? i need to find this out from a more knowlegable source.However...I do not think that the Jesus of the NT is even mentioned one time in the Torah. so there would be no need to translate his name.
 2sweet2quit
Joined: 3/7/2013
Msg: 419
Is Jesus the son of God
Posted: 3/17/2013 10:43:26 AM
Quite correct. And if you look at your 'KJV And most new testaments you will find something interesting:"not in older manuscripts". Which neans for example - "let them who has no sin cast the first stone"... The entire story was added much later. As well as the entire ending of Mark. The oldest manuscripts end with "the women were frightened".
 _shakti_
Joined: 7/5/2011
Msg: 420
Is Jesus the son of God
Posted: 3/17/2013 3:17:27 PM
^^ As per Bart Ehrman.. ?
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