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 timeforall
Joined: 8/26/2012
Msg: 442
Is Jesus the son of God Page 19 of 19    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19)
Just lookin, the torah IS the bible.
 justlookingvt
Joined: 5/8/2010
Msg: 443
Is Jesus the son of God
Posted: 4/2/2013 8:52:22 AM


Just lookin, the torah IS the bible.


I always thought there were differences given that the torah is the Jews' set of sacred texts whereas the bible is the catholics'. Isn't that the case ?
 flyguy51
Joined: 8/11/2005
Msg: 444
Is Jesus the son of God
Posted: 4/2/2013 9:00:41 AM
For the most part, the Torah is the Old Testament part of the Bible. I think that the Torah has some differences, though. It references Lilith as the first wife of Adam, not Eve, and it includes the Noahide laws which are the seven commandments for gentiles to be right with God. You may be thinking of the Talmud-- that is completely separate from the Torah.

To make matters even more complicated, the Catholic version of the Bible has six more books (I think) than the Protestant version!

Edit: having just checked up on the Lilith figure, she is not mentioned before Eve in Genesis but in Isaiah. But she is a figure in Jewish folklore.

There is also this complex explanation of the Torah: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah
 timeforall
Joined: 8/26/2012
Msg: 445
Is Jesus the son of God
Posted: 4/2/2013 9:04:04 AM
Well, as I understood it, the Torah was the First five books of Moses, which is part of the Hebrew Bible. But I suspect even you have had more religion in your life than me, so I do not want to appear as an expert here. Maybe somebody will correct me.
 melodyof_k
Joined: 5/2/2012
Msg: 447
Is Jesus the son of God
Posted: 4/6/2013 9:49:13 PM
timeforall: Yes you are correct in that
the Torah is the first five books of Moses.
The names of each of these books in Hebrew are taken from the first phrase in each book: Bereshit ("In [the] beginning", Genesis), Shemot ("Names", Exodus), Vayikra ("He called", Leviticus[1]), Bamidbar ("In the desert", Numbers) and Devarim ("Words", Deuteronomy).

the rest of the Torah,..or Old Testament is called the Tanach

there is no mention of Jesus in any of the Tanach (which includes the Torah).
there are several interpretations where Jesus was kind of "fit" into the words so as to seem he is there. But there is not even a reference to Jesus by any other name in OT.
There are references to Messiah. But that does not mean Jesus.
If the Tenach is taken at face value...the Messiah will be a person.
a king.
not born of a virgin, and not coming back down from clouds in heaven. and not coming to save mankind from hell.
He will bring world peace.
when that begins to happen we will all see it coming. we seem pretty far from it now.
hopefully soon we will change.

reading the old testament must be done from the Hebrew to get a proper translation.
each new book is named in Hebrew by the first word of that book in Hebrew.
Deuteronomy is in English for Devarim. Devarim means words. so Devar Torah means words of Torah. and if you look at the beginning of Devarim it will begin with that word.

which is why the first words of Devarim (or Devorim) are : these are the words that Moshe spoke.
 Demigod1979
Joined: 12/4/2011
Msg: 448
view profile
History
Is Jesus the son of God
Posted: 4/6/2013 10:05:28 PM

If you are in the mood to be challenged, I suggest the documentary "The God Who Wasn't There." It basically says that no one who wrote the Gospels ever actually saw Jesus. The Gospels were written as storybook narrative, not as historical accounts. None of the writers lived in the time of Jesus, and the Apostle Paul never even claimed Jesus was a real historical person. Easy enough to read Pual's letters and see that that is disturbingly true.

I've seen that documentary. It's clear that Brian Flemming is a proponent of the Jesus Myth (Doherty and Price were featured very prominently).

Frankly, I think there are bits and pieces of information, in the Bible and elsewhere, that point to a real, historical Jesus. There's also some traditions that may go back to an actual Jesus, or at least an early community of followers (e.g., Bart Ehrman gave an example of Jesus' teaching about the Sabbath being made for man, saying it only made sense in Aramaic, suggesting it goes back to an Aramaic-speaking community - the Greek/English translation renders the sayings nonsensical). Of course even if a historical Jesus existed, it does not validate the stories in the gospels/NT. I would say the gospel Jesus is a largely fictional character, and that the real Jesus (if he existed) was one of the many apocalyptic preacher around that time, who got on the wrong side of the Romans and was killed by them.
 SpringMataLeao
Joined: 10/12/2012
Msg: 449
Is Jesus the son of God
Posted: 4/11/2013 3:51:30 PM
God does not exist, therefore he cannot have a son.
 Yule_liquor
Joined: 12/7/2011
Msg: 450
Is Jesus the son of God
Posted: 4/11/2013 4:08:22 PM

apocalyptic preacher around that time, who got on the wrong side of the Romans and was killed by them.


There might be a bit more to it than that!
There seems to be some archaelogical evidence that Judas may have hung (or killed himself) on a sacred burial ground on the sanhedrin's site in Jerusallem; which is alleged to have been done out of spite. In ancient Jewish tradition, killing one's self on a burial ground automatically sullies that site and is tantamount to laying down a curse on it.

I was watching this on the series called the "naked archaelogist" some months ago, but I can't remember the name of that program. It does not prove that JC was divine but it, but it would make somebody wonder (someone who is unbiased), why Judas would have gone to that length!
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 451
Is Jesus the son of God
Posted: 4/11/2013 7:41:35 PM
Considering how things turned out, I'd say that Jesus was a terrible disappointment to his Old Man...On the other hand, maybe He wasn't even His kid...which would kinda explain why he was forsaken by the Guy He thought was his Father.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 453
Is Jesus the son of God
Posted: 4/11/2013 8:16:09 PM

believe as you wish


I believe I have a different take on the story. I suspect it is the story of someone who fell from Grace. He died as a man and failed in his purpose. I figure they wrote in the happy ending (the Ascension) sometime later on. But hey; any book is only one man's (OK, in this case several men's) opinion(s) of moonlight.



how is the manifesto coming?


I wrote it ages ago, but of course it is currently classified as "top secret"...The people aren't ready yet...I know people want the Truth, but ...They can't HANDLE the Truth!! (LMAO)

Actually, I'm too damn busy trying to straighten out a crooked government to bother writing much these days. It's a full-time job trying to keep their hands out of the public cookie jar!...I'm forever having to give the little buggers a swat.
 melodyof_k
Joined: 5/2/2012
Msg: 454
Is Jesus the son of God
Posted: 4/11/2013 9:00:39 PM
Paul,
wasnt the Savior, Messiah, supposed to bring world peace?
where does it ever say that the Messiah is not a man?
why would he have to be born of a virgin?
how does anyone know that Mary was a virgin? did they check her before she was pregnant?
did they check her while she was pregnant to know she was a virgin?
the word in the Old Testament that the Christians mistranslated as virgin means young maiden.
and it had nothing to do with birth of Messiah it was referring to Hezakiah.

I can accept that Jesus preformed miracles. but he is not the only one to have preformed miracles.
He was just a Jewish man...
who went against the strict laws and wanted to keep the feeling of the law over the physical rules...although he also lived by most of the law.
That is what I think. But who knows for sure Paul?
 drinkthesunwithmyface
Joined: 3/27/2012
Msg: 455
view profile
History
Is Jesus the son of God
Posted: 4/11/2013 9:13:41 PM
Hey, they already answered this question. They got themselves onto a talk-show to have a genetic test done. "You are...(not?)..."
 Bazza1965
Joined: 10/18/2011
Msg: 456
Is Jesus the son of God
Posted: 4/12/2013 2:06:37 AM
i saw a sign that read

Need Jesus call 1800 765 434
so i rang it
5 mins later some mexican dude came round to mow my lawns
 Demigod1979
Joined: 12/4/2011
Msg: 457
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History
Is Jesus the son of God
Posted: 4/12/2013 5:05:03 AM

Secondly, Jesus cried out "why have you forsaken me"........ but he really wasn't forsaken, because he did arise from the state of death. To carry out the plan to the bitter end even while thinking that His Father had forsaken him just shows the depth of the commitment he had to loving mankind. According to the Bible, in order for GRACE to be the deciding factor in whether a person gets salvation, He had to follow through on the whole plan.

IMO, the "why have you forsaken me" line was taken from an earlier tradition, and fits in well with the idea that Jesus was adopted as God's son. The spirit of God descends upon him at his baptism, then his spirit deserts him at his crucifixion, leading Jesus to cry out to the departed spirit. Later traditions (Luke, John) decided that this didn't make sense and changed it to something more appropriate (in Luke: "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit" and in John "It is finished").
 justlookingvt
Joined: 5/8/2010
Msg: 458
Is Jesus the son of God
Posted: 4/12/2013 5:18:27 AM


If you want to go by how it is written in the Bible itself, instead of making things up and then coming to conclusions based on things not in the Bible, you had two things very wrong.


The bible is 99% made up. Why is the bible’s made up stories more “conclusive” than whatever anyone else can make up ? One fantasy isn’t any more factual than another.

It all rests on how each reader chooses the interpret the fantasy they read.
 drinkthesunwithmyface
Joined: 3/27/2012
Msg: 460
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History
Is Jesus the son of God
Posted: 4/12/2013 11:26:53 AM
^

The primacy of opinion...and the idea that beliefs are supposed to be respected.

Two things from the modern practice of religion that damages how the mind works.
 csamcsog
Joined: 4/8/2013
Msg: 461
Is Jesus the son of God
Posted: 4/12/2013 3:27:03 PM
"the word in the Old Testament that the Christians mistranslated as virgin means young maiden."
--------------

You got that from the movie, in the opening sequence, of "Snatch", admit it.
 csamcsog
Joined: 4/8/2013
Msg: 462
Is Jesus the son of God
Posted: 4/12/2013 3:51:35 PM
"That is what I think. But who knows for sure Paul?"

-------------------

All knowledge beyond the existence of the self is based at least partly on belief. Since belief is essential to almost all pieces of knowledge but one, a knowledge based entirely on faith is valid knowledge. The knowledge that is based entirely on faith that the contents of two books are true, and no checking against mental and/or speculative, or found and supporting physical evidence is employed, is a completely valid but crazy faith. The faith even says "if you have doubts, and no other sin, you'll still go to heaven; impure thoughts are a deadly sin", so beleivers have not frequently in the habit of going againsth their faith.

Knowledge is possible, and christians have that knowledge, and furthermore it is valid knowledge, but completely wrong of course.

Here you have to accept that all konwledge is not equal necessarily to all knowledge.

There are five levels of knowledge, about the realm of reality, and they are gradually less and less likely to be truly true:

1. The knowledge of the existence of the self. this is the ony knowledge that is empirical yet proven in an a priori way.
2. The knowledge that is safe to believe is true. This kowledge has typically a high level of dependability attached to it. You know that eating cyanide will kill you, and you're confident about this, because you beleive you can be confident about t his. The empirical correlation of expected to real results is 1.
3. The knowledge that is believable and debatable. Did man land on the Moon?
4. The knowledge that can neither be proven or disproven, yet it is possible that it's true. We can prove in some ways, or rather, quell all disbeleif, that man landed on the Moon; it is theoretically possible. However, there are factual pieces of knowledge, that can't be checked, although they are possible to exist, such as a flying teacup in space that circles the world.
5. the knowledget that statements that can never be true, that say things that are logically impossible, are true. This covers the Christian bible and all other scriptures; and it covers even scientific findings, those in the realm of quantum mechanics, which state and prove to find true, such statements which say that a caused event happens before its originator causes it to happen.

This fifth level is particularly disturbing to natural philosophers who accept the falsehood of faith in religious teaching. Like 3-1=0. Philosophers have made definitions that are used to define the untruths like for instance those of religions. The basis of all such definition is the logical proof of reducio ad absurdum. This is level five, the knowledge about the physical world that requires the acceptance of things that have been shown to contradict the impossibility thrust upon them by reductio ad absurdum.

Since philosophers readily and gleefully accept this criteria for level 5 knowledge, they are hit on the nose by having to accept very highly possible and practically measured and observed phenomena in the realm of Quantum Mechanism, which also makes the philosophers suspend their disbelief in the strength of reductio ad absurdum.

This is quite a mess we got ourselves into. Worse than the debt crisis or the North Korea nuclear armament policy. Worse than Lady Gaga's new hairdo.
 csamcsog
Joined: 4/8/2013
Msg: 463
Is Jesus the son of God
Posted: 4/12/2013 4:01:00 PM
Later traditions (Luke, John) decided that this didn't make sense and changed it to something more appropriate (in Luke: "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit" and in John "It is finished").

--------------------

I take it as four different witnesses had three different takes on the thing. They were there. They heard what Jesus said on the cross. Or read or heard some witnesses' affidavits that stated what jesus said.

Yet it became three different versions:

"you forsake me"
"into your hands I commit my spirit" (pretty lofty to come from a dying man)
and
"it is finished."

well.

The NT is supposed to be the new testament, the truth, the word of god.

Did it happen three different ways? Did Jesus say in uttering one single non-changing, and uniquely worded sentence so that it was three uniquely worded sentences?

The NT quotes Jesus, and we all stand up when the priest says in an RC church service, mass, after a quote attr. to Jesus, "this is the word of god".

God speaks in different ways when he utters one single solitary sentence, only one, and once in one shot?

---------------

If you say that the people who penned the NT were not quite sure, because they were not actually there, then you assert that the bible and lines attr. to Jesus are not actually the word of god.

So which is it.

----------------

This is what I am talking bout when I say that scriptures are level five knowledge == contradictory to logic and to acceptability by a person with reason.

Yet billions beleive it.

I can't beleive it...!
 csamcsog
Joined: 4/8/2013
Msg: 464
Is Jesus the son of God
Posted: 4/12/2013 4:09:46 PM
BINGO. I have said all along that God, the Bible, Jesus, the OT, the NT, ALL should be believed because of faith. And, that is a person to God, one on one kind of a thing.

================

Paul K, I agree with you, with one insertion of qualifying the knowledge based on faith.

I assert that the knowledge you accepted on the basis of faith also requires you to give up, at least temporarily, the ability to reason by the believer.

yes, it takes anyone's reasonable mind to say that Mary's virginity can't be proven. But it takes a mind which suspends its reliance on reason to say that 3-1=0.

This is the one necessary extra I would want to add to your claim that the bible and faith in god in the way of the scriptures is a knowable, valid, true knowledge.

Curiously, all religions employ logically impossible tenets, and the more impossible the tenet, the more widespread the faith becomes and the more tenatious and fanatic the believers become.

Maybe I am putting the cart before the horse? You have to have, not as I say, but the opposite, that is you have to have a mind prone to fanaticism before you can sacrificy logic and your sane mind on the altar of faith.
 csamcsog
Joined: 4/8/2013
Msg: 465
Is Jesus the son of God
Posted: 4/12/2013 4:31:37 PM
He was just a Jewish man...
who went against the strict laws and wanted to keep the feeling of the law over the physical rules...although he also lived by most of the law.

---------------------

Yes, he was probably this, and much more than this.

According to a book I read the first fifty pages of at least thirty times, it was that well written, Jesus was a Roman sympathiser. According to the author, the nation was stirring in Israel, they did not want to pay taxes to the Romans, but they did not want to be run over and enslaved by the Romans either. So in good ole' tried and true Biblical tradition, they bickered about this, and no decision surfaced.

Jesus was a very well respected poor bocher, he did not work, instead, he taught. For no money! Big thing in the nation of Israel. So lots of people listend to him, much more many than to those teachers who charged for tuition.

Eventually someone asked him the big question: what about the taxes.

Jesus replied ad hoc: Give God what's His, and give the ceasar what's his.

So the body of influential Jews said "this man must die."

--------------

The book goes on to explain the resurrection thus:

Jesus went into a coma and he did not die. Peter and others drugged him on the cross, with the help of the guards, by giving him some concoction that was not water to drink.

Jesus' chest was pierced, and blood came out, yet they took him off the cross as if he were dead. He was not.

He was put in the cave, and when some of the desciples came back to wash his body, they actually brought drugs with them that were supposed to bring him out of the coma.

He got out of the coma, and he lived.

He then disappeared, and some, very, very scant evidence supports that he was shipped to Egypt.

------------------

There was a comment given by the author, which said that Pilate was in a gas. He needed to convince the Jews to pay taxes, and hopefully in a way that did not lead to fiscal loss, or vandalism, or to destroying of property. His job hang on this, maybe his head too.

So he knew that Jesus was precious to Rome and to the cause of Rome. He needed him, dearly. So he arranged to have him taken off the cross before he died, he arranged to get him drugged to go into an artificial coma, he arranged to have the disciples enter the cave, his burial place. The cave was guarded by soldiers, and they were not put to sleep by angels, but either by more sleeping drugs that Pilate ordered, or else they were given orders not to interfere with the removal of the body.

Pilate was desparate from the word "go" to keep Jesus as a man or whatever intact. He wanted to save J in the trial. He wanted to save J in the crowd-pleasing ceremony at Pesach, by wanting to release J form the death sentence. The other guy was released, because the crowd had been instruced by the influential Jews, who did not want to pay taxes, to call a name other than that of J.

-----

I tend to buy this story, because the parts fit. With Jesus out of the picture, the taxation budget was rejected, Israel and the temple got destroyed. Jews were sent or chased to the four directions. There was nothing left of Jerusalem for thousands of years that was Jewish, and all because of some measly gold pieces that the Jewish population was too cheap to pay.

In contrast, they thought they bought fate with forty silver pieces. They thought that paying forty silvers in one shot instead of paying thousands of gold pieces every year was a good deal.

yes, but God fated the future to be different.

Ever since, wall street prospectuses have been saying, "past performance is no indication of future rate of return."
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