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 Kings_Knight
Joined: 1/20/2009
Msg: 89
Does Religion cause WarsPage 4 of 8    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8)
The old saying is "If god didn't exist, man would have to invent him" ... well: Ta-daaaaaaaaaaa ... !
Just look how far that little trick got us ...
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 90
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Does Religion cause Wars
Posted: 3/30/2013 10:43:51 AM

we really do need a morality thread.


Heck, at ton of the threads here already end up being about morality. And there are already threads specifically about morality that you can add to.

All you have to do, is search for thread titles with the word "should" in it.
Does Religion cause Wars
Posted: 3/30/2013 10:55:48 AM
^ I just got a feeling there wouldn't be much participation, or the right kind, of the kind I think we need, if the thread isn't specifically focused on morality, in general, or if it is too old. Just look at my thread "speculating on the edge of cosmology/quantum theory". I think I might revise and update my stated agenda in that one.
 ChristianGuy777
Joined: 2/26/2013
Msg: 92
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Does Religion cause Wars
Posted: 3/30/2013 12:21:39 PM
So much talk... I think it's simple

Wars start because of evil.

Evil is sin.

Sin is hate, evil jealousy (there's a good kind), theft, pride... etc

Mankind accepts sin and war may happen.

I really don't think it's complicated enough to talk about it this much.

All this being said, war itself is not evil. The reasons behind war CAN be evil though.
 ChristianGuy777
Joined: 2/26/2013
Msg: 93
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Does Religion cause Wars
Posted: 3/30/2013 12:27:04 PM
Somebody posted under my post.... and I think I deleted it by accident for deleting my post (to edit it and repost it) lol

I read some of what it said. It was a bad argument.

I think he said something along the lines of people died in the name of Jesus Christ?

The teaching of Jesus Christ never taught to go to war for no reason. The most relevant example is when one of Jesus's disciples told Jesus about guards wanting to kill them. Jesus asked one of his disciples to bring two swords for the purpose and context of self defense.

So, bad argument. People can go to war yelling anyone's name... but that doesn't mean that person's "religion" is what made them do it.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 96
Does Religion cause Wars
Posted: 3/31/2013 8:17:13 AM
God (if He exists) didn't cause wars, He only (allegedly) created people.

People created religions so they could have an all-seeing, all-powerful Father to beg for personal favours, but in doing so, they disagreed on how this would be done and on the name(s) of their Diety(s). This was of course done so we could have a "them" to fight & argue with...Hence the wars as a logical extension and an excuse to kill one another.

I think we should place the blame squarely on the offending party...People.

People "caused" (created) both religion and wars...That's 2 strikes against us...We are still at bat though, and the bases are loaded with three balls and innumerable foul balls already called. Let's hope we finally see that life, like baseball, is just a game before we strike out.

On the other hand, if there IS a God and he DID create people, maybe He's ultimately at fault after all. I of course don't believe in fairytales, but DO believe that people created God, that the people ARE God in the sense that they create what they are (which is what they believe they are), and that if we can smarten up in time, (there is no need to go extinct by killing, fighting, starving, enslaving and robbing each other) we can build a happy and abundant life for everyone.

If a Heavenly Father exists, I'm pretty sure that's what He wants for His kids, and it'll all be there for them if or when they finally grow up and recognize one another as caring siblings in the human family. At that point (if we reach it) God's Creation will move from fiction to reality and complete it's cycle as the Entity that created Itself.

Such a sweeping change has to come from inside the heart of each and every one of us (where the "Kingdom of God" is to be found), and truly depends on how much we want to be The Creator of our aggregate destiny and to build a better world.

My recommendation would be to quit looking up for an invisible man who isn't there and start looking inside to find the God that IS.

I'll close off with a question to ponder...

When a child (of God?) grows up, what does that child become?
Does Religion cause Wars
Posted: 3/31/2013 9:18:00 AM
^ When we say god or religion causes things, like wars, we don't actually mean (necessarily) god, we do mean people, but we mean people's belief in god and their behavior derived from religion - of course we mean people, not god, but their belief in god, etc.
 JustDukky
Joined: 7/8/2004
Msg: 98
Does Religion cause Wars
Posted: 3/31/2013 10:05:26 AM
Scripture has to be read metaphorically to interpret it properly and learn it's profound moral lessons. As an example of what I mean, I will now critique bhawk's post of scriptural quotes with my own take on their meaning. I'll omit the quotes from what Jesus meant, since he probably didn't say it exactly that way…if he was even there to say anything at all:



(CHRIST) Matthew 10:34-36
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.


34 - I came to shake up the rotten status quo of the priests with the power of reason logic and wisdom, which is ultimately, the greatest of weapons against the absurdities that make people commit atrocities (see Voltaire).

35 - This will cause much dissension, even in the family where the parents wish to stick to the absurd status quo.

36 - Families will argue and fight over the interpretations of scripture.



(CHRIST) Luke 22:36

36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.


Money has no real value and neither do worldly possessions. There is great power in being poor, as it shows others that you do not seek false values they can use against you (How can any man stand against you when they rely on your all-too-human foibles of fear, greed and ego to defeat you?) A pure, courageous and unselfish heart is the mightiest weapon that can be wielded (that is the sword to which he referred).


Deuteronomy 13:13-18

13 Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;

14 Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;

15 Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.

16 And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the Lord thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.

17 And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the Lord may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and shew thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers;

18 When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the Lord thy God.


This was part of a "moral" lesson inserted by the power-hungry priests to prevent the "faithful" from following a God they weren't "pushing" and rally them to commit profitable atrocities of conquest in the name of their own God. (the absurd "God is on our side" fallacy)



1 Samuel 15:2-3

2 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.

3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.


Ditto to the above, and at least partly made up, since if you read all the scripture, you will see that the Chosen of God, doing his bidding, killed off the Amalekites to the last man, woman & child THREE TIMES! (Apparently they were a lot harder to kill off than the Almighty and Omnipotent God thought)



Thats just a brief example, before you say the old testament is not relevant, it was jesus who said:

Matthew 5:17-19

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


17 - You guys are screwing up by misinterpreting and making up scripture & the real law. I'm here to set you straight.

18 - The real law isn't written by men, but by the universe (God?) itself. The fulfilment of the law is the very function of the universe and the law will never change as long as the universe (God?) exists.

19 - The truly good and moral man is the one who is in total harmony with the Law of God (the law of nature…natural law)

So you see, scripture, like Aesop's fables teaches us many and profound lessons when you read it properly and without making stupid assumptions (like it's meant to be taken literally, or is historically accurate, or was written by an almighty and nasty, vengeful, jealous God modelled on Zeus, etc.)

Like any truly good storybook, the Bible teaches us a great deal about ourselves.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 99
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Does Religion cause Wars
Posted: 3/31/2013 10:19:44 AM

When we say god or religion causes things, like wars, we don't actually mean (necessarily) god, we do mean people, but we mean people's belief in god and their behavior derived from religion - of course we mean people, not god, but their belief in god, etc


The problem with that, is, that too many people in this thread still fail to distinguish between the acts of individuals who claim to be acting in the name of "something," and the "something" itself. Therefore, in order to be as logical as you appear you want to be with that, you really need to extend it the rest of the way, and recognize that it's just as much an inaccurate substitution to declare that RELIGION causes wars, when it's the people who do so, as it is to say that GOD causes wars, when it is the people who do so.
 ChristianGuy777
Joined: 2/26/2013
Msg: 100
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Does Religion cause Wars
Posted: 3/31/2013 2:04:31 PM
What about them? The crusades were unbiblical.
 ChristianGuy777
Joined: 2/26/2013
Msg: 101
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Posted: 3/31/2013 3:50:24 PM
(CHRIST) Matthew 10:34-36

Speaks about the sword... the sword of the spirit.......... And how being a Christian means you may be divided from family. Conflict, from just being a Christian.

(CHRIST) Luke 22:36

Yeah, he was telling them to buy two swords. Not go out and murder non-Christians. I haven't looked into it thoroughly but I'd wager that was for self-defense since... if you read a little more down the road... here...a few verses at 38

38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough. <<<< That is enough.

Deuteronomy 13:13-18

Look up what "Belial" and it'll give you a major hint as to why.

Also, I touched upon this in another thread with you. God is justified by the justice system to punish or destroy on the basis of... justice.

1 Samuel 15:2-3

The name amalek is a symbol for hatred and evil against Jews. They were described as cruel and ruthless. Hint Hint

Matthew 5:17-19

idk what your trying to say with this but awesome scripture. Thanks for sharing?


Also, this is the last time I go indept to research answers for you... if your going to post something please research yourself and find out what these texts really mean. I imagine your resources are from some, no doubt, bias, mis-informed website or something in that respect. I've spent a lot of time and yeah... next time you show me verses that your taking out of context. I'm going to just respond with a few words or sentences... and say.. no, do some research.
 drinkthesunwithmyface
Joined: 3/27/2012
Msg: 102
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Does Religion cause Wars
Posted: 3/31/2013 4:13:34 PM

...in order to be as logical as you appear you want to be with that, you really need to extend it the rest of the way, and recognize that it's just as much an inaccurate substitution to declare that RELIGION causes wars, when it's the people who do so, as it is to say that GOD causes wars, when it is the people who do so.


Well, ok then...

When I say "religion", I'm talking about specific dynamics by which people think and behave, as individuals, and also as groups collectively. And of course I'm (also) referring to the actions taken and deeds done by them collectively, and individually. In this case I think it's un-important to demand a distinction. It's like if I said "people-going-to-church" causes the church's parking lot to get full, and you are demanding a distinction between what the people are doing, and "them-going-to-church". You want to know if it's the people causing the parking lot to get full, or is it "people-going-to-church" causing it. It doesn't really make much sense, and isn't really relevant or applicable. I don't think your comparison, or extension, really holds.

Let me make an example using hitler and nazism again...in nazi-party ww2 germany, was it nazism that burned the jews, or the people, or their belief in nazism? Well, sure it was the people. Aliens from freaking Mars didn't do it. The people did it, but the nazism in their minds and in their collective psychology "caused" them to do it. But also, when you say nazism you are talking about the people themselves.

There is a distinction, but there isn't. The distinction is important, yet it isn't. I just don't see how it even matters much. I'm not even sure what I'm talking about anymore as I type this, or what you're saying...so either you need to explain it better or more, or it's too wispy in it's substance and relevance.


What about them? The crusades were unbiblical.


Sometimes people in this thread talk about whether or not certain acts were commanded by their holy texts, or were inspired by them, etc. What I think shouldn't be overlooked is that religion isn't bad just because it might directly command that something be done. It's more subtle than that. Which is why it's so dangerous and slippery. What religion does, and part of what defines it, is that it creates and encourages a certain way of thinking, and behaving, so that all sorts of things can be done even though they aren't explicitly found within the holy texts. This of course invites the argument that people do really good things also because of religion...but that wouldn't redeem it - I could do a good thing because I was inspired by the grass underneath my feet, but that doesn't legitimize the grass. And, those good things can still be done, without the bad hitching a ride because we're using something like religion for it.
 looking4her2335
Joined: 1/23/2013
Msg: 103
Does Religion cause Wars
Posted: 3/31/2013 4:27:55 PM

Also, I touched upon this in another thread with you. God is justified by the justice system to punish or destroy on the basis of... justice.


You my friend, are fighting a losing battle (werid reference in the context of a thread about war I know) if you are trying to defend the actions done in the name of Yahweh in the OT. That god is as bloodthirsty as any you could pick out from the world pantheon.

To put into perspective, this is a god who thought it fitting to kill every living thing, minus what a guy could fit on a wooden boat. That's babies, animals, children, I mean...everyone except Noah's family. That's for starters guy. Let's not forget those kids in Egypt that he killed, who one would guess didn't have anything to do with the supposed enslavement of the hebrews. Some justice, Yawheh whent so far as to "harden the heart" of the pharaoh so he wouldn't let the hebrews go. Then he kills all the firstborn? Something doesnt add up there.

What about Midian? I could relate it all here but, you might as well just read Numbers 31. Disgraceful. Taking people captive, and then killing all the male children and the women who were not virgins and giving the virgins and plunder to the soldiers to be equally divided. Shameful.

In Numbers 33 god tells the hebrews to drive out all the inhabitants of Cannan otherwise he will do unto them (the hebrews) what he has planned for the cannanites. Yikes, this is getting worse for you.

I don't really need to go much further. If you've read your holy book you know what happens to the Amalekites, Jericho, Amorites ect. It's not justice, its Xenophobia.

I agree with you about Jesus. When speaking of bringing discord, fathers against sons...that whole jive, of course he was speaking of the belief and how it would turn families and people against each other, not of death and killing. The book of Revelation portray's Jesus in a different light, but that is a book for the crazy, as Thomas Jefferson said

It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it and I then considered it as merely the ravings of a maniac no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams.


I don't think Jesus, a guy who talked about turning the cheek, would endorse wars of conquest or genocide, but then again he's supposedly one person of a trinity that some five hundred to a thousand years prior endorsed genocide so who knows.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 104
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Does Religion cause Wars
Posted: 3/31/2013 4:47:02 PM
What I'm getting at, is that a Religion is not an entity. It can be discussed in the way you mention here, which is valid in a particular way that I agree with, i.e. "When I say "religion", I'm talking about specific dynamics by which people think and behave, as individuals, and also as groups collectively". However, though that is valid in it's way, it is not the same thing that the bulk of this thread is about. Yours is more a description of a sociological phenomenon than a specific belief system, and is not in agreement with the most common thing that most people mean when they say "Religion."

Essentially, with that particular definition of religion, substituting your definition for the word "religion," we could easily agree that indeed, wars are often caused by groups of people behaving collectively, and committing certain deeds. However, this is not the same thing as saying that the existence of a spiritual belief system, in and of itself, causes wars.

Particularly for the religions with the most nominal adherents in the world, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc, there is no consensus among any of those systems followers, to the effect that war is an inherent part of, or tool for promotion of, their beliefs. Hence, to declare that the RELIGION causes the followers to commit atrocities, requires the critic to select an interpretation of the group, which it's majority of followers do NOT support.

Hence, I still contend that while it is certainly true that lots of times, the belief systems (as well as the paranoias, shared delusions, patriotic mythology, communal greed, etc) do indeed get utilized by people in a position to do so, to bring about wars and other horrific actions, to say that the existence of those things are to blame for the wars, is not logically supported.
 drinkthesunwithmyface
Joined: 3/27/2012
Msg: 105
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Does Religion cause Wars
Posted: 3/31/2013 8:17:10 PM

When [you] say "religion", [you're] talking about specific dynamics by which people think and behave, as individuals, and also as groups collectively. However, though that is valid in it's way, it is not the same thing that the bulk of this thread is about. Yours is more a description of a sociological phenomenon than a specific belief system, and is not in agreement with the most common thing that most people mean when they say "Religion."


Correct - I don't want to talk about only one case of a deadly virus killing someone...I want to talk about all cases of it killing someone. If we're talking about internal combustion gasoline cars polluting our air, I don't want to just talk about Fords, but all brands of internal combustion gasoline cars which might be polluting our air.

The bulk of this thread might be about this, and it might be about that. The bulk of this thread could be about bullfrogs hitting themselves in the arse when they jump...but if we're trying to understand the warts on top of the bullfrog's head, I don't care if the bulk of the thread is about the bullfrog hitting itself in the arse when it jumps.

If we're trying to figure out if asteroids hitting the Earth is something to worry about, and most people mean something that clings to your butt hairs when they say "asteroids", I think it's important to clarify exactly what asteroid means. If we're trying to figure out if global warming really is a problem, and most people mean a world wide program to provide poor people with heaters in the winter, I think it's important to clarify exactly what global warming really means.

However, I don't think you speak for everyone when saying that most people mean such-and-such, and I don't think you speak for everyone when claiming that the bulk of this thread is about such-and-such. And, most importantly, I don't think that it would matter if so.


Essentially, with that particular definition of religion, substituting your definition for the word "religion," we could easily agree that indeed, wars are often caused by groups of people behaving collectively, and committing certain deeds. However, this is not the same thing as saying that the existence of a spiritual belief system, in and of itself, causes wars.


So...internal combustion gasoline cars might pollute our air a little, but that's not the same thing as saying that internal combustion cars might pollute our air a little.


Particularly for the religions with the most nominal adherents in the world, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc, there is no consensus among any of those systems followers, to the effect that war is an inherent part of, or tool for promotion of, their beliefs. Hence, to declare that the RELIGION causes the followers to commit atrocities, requires the critic to select an interpretation of the group, which it's majority of followers do NOT support.


Someone once told me "I am a moral person. I believe in peace, love, and tolerance. I try to treat people right. I believe in being rational, I try to be rational in my life, and I try to be fair and respectful of all people.

And I am a nazi. I have a copy of Mein Kampf on my coffee table. I wear a swastika necklace. I wear a bracelet that says WWHD. But you should not judge me according to those other people. People like me don't believe anymore in hanging black people, ostracizing atheists, or burning jews. Those people who're like that are not true nazis. I am the one who truly represents what nazism is supposed to be about. You just can't judge us because of the crazy people who do crazy things. They twist and misunderstand His word, just like you do. You have to know how to read his word right, and not take things out of context. I'm not trying to harm anyone. I don't do those things. So you should respect my nazism. It's a personal choice, and none of your business. My nazism hurts no one. Me identifying as a nazi, and sanctioning my wish to live right and embrace true wisdoms with nazism, makes perfect sense and doesn't hurt anybody.

Besides, you should look at all of the humanitarian work that has been done by us nazis. And all of the beautiful art that was inspired by our nazism. And all of the people whose lives have been turned around, or have accomplished great things, because they were inspired by nazism. What about that?"


Hence, I still contend that while it is certainly true that lots of times, the belief systems (as well as the paranoias, shared delusions, patriotic mythology, communal greed, etc) do indeed get utilized by people in a position to do so, to bring about wars and other horrific actions, to say that the existence of those things are to blame for the wars, is not logically supported.


Religion, any/all religion, causes a stunting of intellectual, social, and emotional development...for the individual mind, and collectives/group psychology.

This consequentially causes strife and drama in all areas of life of the kinds that are unnecessary and otherwise avoidable.

And this causes wars, which are only one manifestation of this damage and destruction that it does to us, which is manifested in many other ways in everyday life.

Religion, intrinsically, encourages, romanticizes, and legitimizes being intellectually lazy, careless, and irresponsible in various particular ways. This cannot fail to have a bad effect on a fundamental level affecting everything else.

Or rather, in every case where this is true...that is what should be called religion. This is what most people should mean, or do mean without completely realizing it, when they say "religion".
 PROTON67
Joined: 4/26/2012
Msg: 106
Does Religion cause Wars
Posted: 4/1/2013 11:56:14 AM
Religion is simply what you believe. Therefore religion causes wars and pretty much everything else we do.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 107
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Posted: 4/1/2013 3:56:56 PM

Religion, any/all religion, causes a stunting of intellectual, social, and emotional development...for the individual mind, and collectives/group psychology.


That quote, and several more that follow, ignore the historic facts. If you actually studied the past, as I have, you would already know that if anything, the opposite is much more true. That is, the amount of mental work required to develop the very complex religions of the world, resulted in a tremendous promotion of intellectual pursuits over pure violence and the rule of the most powerful. The larger religions have done much more to encourage learning, research, investigation, debate, contemplation, logical analysis, and more, than has many of the non-religious means that humans have used to try to manage the world.

Yes, it is certainly true that SOME people look upon their religious beliefs as a way to avoid thinking, feeling, or reasoning, and especially being responsible for themselves and their acts. But that isn't the fault of the concept of a religion, any more than it is the fault of Science, that some people use THAT to declare that they are not responsible for themselves, because they are "just animals, after all."

To be clear: I am NOT a religious person. I strongly oppose those religious people who want to put their belief system in charge of any part of my life. But you have to ignore, rather than face facts, to declare what you have above.
 drinkthesunwithmyface
Joined: 3/27/2012
Msg: 108
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Does Religion cause Wars
Posted: 4/1/2013 5:07:13 PM
igor ^ Another unfortunate miscomprehension of things, and linguistic mis-appropriation.

Particular formal religious institutions, under formal names, have done a lot, yes. But that's not religion, the individual and collective thinking/behaving dynamics, but just religion, the formal organization, being self-proclaimed at the center of a certain religion (per the holy document and public perception), legitimizing the bad things of that religion, while also doing some good things under it's own name...

...ok, fine, blah blah freaking blah. You're almost doing a red herring of sorts.


...isn't the fault of the concept of a religion...


There is something the importance of which I've emphasized a lot in these threads, and it doesn't seem to be sinking in...you need to ask yourself, and understand...

What is religion? What is definitive and differentiating of it?

This question seems to keep getting glossed over. As if it doesn't matter, or isn't important. So I'm going to repeat it a few times here, and ask that all pretend that I am beating you over the head trying to get your attention -

What is religion? What is definitive and differentiating of it?
What is religion? What is definitive and differentiating of it?
What is religion? What is definitive and differentiating of it?
 aremeself
Joined: 12/31/2008
Msg: 109
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Does Religion cause Wars
Posted: 4/1/2013 11:53:55 PM
does religion cause wars???
sure!

next question;

should we outlaw religion???
yes! many say.

next question;

does selfish cause wars???
yup!

how you gunna outlaw that???
 billingsmason
Joined: 2/3/2012
Msg: 110
Does Religion cause Wars
Posted: 4/2/2013 12:46:01 AM
maybe just put a warning label on it?

this product was processed in a plant that produces selfish..and nuts.
 ARadicalPunk
Joined: 1/27/2010
Msg: 111
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Does Religion cause Wars
Posted: 4/2/2013 1:41:13 AM
Without a doubt! I do love the arguments of assumption and ignorance though. Clearly it must be the devil, and clearly it was totally political and governmental wants and desires. I point some of you derp-da-herps to the American revolution, Crusades (all seven of the Crusades) French Revolution, US Civil War, World War 1, and World War 2 (specifically this war) but I digress lets not forget the Spanish Inquisition, Mary the First (also known as Bloody Mary for how many people she put to the fire) and Solomon Witch trials too. Why settle just for wars when religion likes to focus on the minutia as well? Ah religion, good times (technically I mean the worst of times, but why split hairs?).
 ARadicalPunk
Joined: 1/27/2010
Msg: 112
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Does Religion cause Wars
Posted: 4/2/2013 2:02:57 AM
@JustDukky

Ah this guy, Christian douche bags making apologies for the Bible and their faith once again.

Actually, the Bible says nothing about interpreting it metaphorically (the fallacy of assumption) cherry picking your religion (another fallacy) and running augments into your beginning premise (and specifically giving circular arguments is another fallacy)

So what we get is A is true, “Scripture has to be read metaphorically to interpret it properly and learn it's profound moral lessons,”

Because B is true, “As an example of what I mean, I will now critique bhawk's post of scriptural quotes with my own take on their meaning. I'll omit the quotes from what Jesus meant, since he probably didn't say it exactly that way,”

Because A is true, “So you see, scripture, like Aesop's fables teaches us many and profound lessons when you read it properly and without making stupid assumptions (like it's meant to be taken literally, or is historically accurate, or was written by an almighty and nasty, vengeful, jealous God modelled on Zeus, etc.) Like any truly good storybook, the Bible teaches us a great deal about ourselves.”

This folks is a not only a weak argument, but an argument of circular reasoning. He argues against assumptions, but tells you to believe on assumption and makes appeals to faith (this is what we “intellectual” types like to call a fallacy).

Ofcourse his strawman army is easily burned when you look at the text, known your own level of education, beg the question, and realize the hokum that is the bible. The testaments do speak for themselves, and are to be taken with a grain of salt because Jesus himself says he lies, but calls them moral stories:

Jesus explains that the reason he speaks in parables is so that no one will understand him, “lest . . . they . . . should understand . . . and should be converted, and I should heal them” (Matthew 13:10-15).

Jesus explains why he speaks in parables to confuse people so they will go to hell (Mark 4:11-12).

Isn't Jesus a great guy? If you don't interpret his evil fairy tales correctly you will go to hell. I'm sure we can all learn our lessons in hell. Such is this Omniscient and Omnibenevolent God who tricks humans, manipulates humans, and blackmails humans into his way of thinking. Clearly this is the work of supreme intelligence and supreme love. Get illiterate and uneducated sandal jockeys to write your word, and objectify it to the world.

What kills me is when people like this can’t look up from their drip trays long enough to realize humans don’t like it when you say they couldn’t possibly understand, interpret, or even begin to fathom the bible (a book that was written by men some odd 4,000 years ago). No, sorry my education allows me to not only understand this garbage, but sort out all the lies, bullshit, and contradictions. Nice try, but from the time it took your brain to fart the excess gray matter out, us free thinkers already took this book apart front and back.

The best part, you have zero proof--nada, none, wala, aucun, keiner, and nemo--that God exists. Ah, we humans sure as hell can't disprove the existence of a god, but you Christians, Muslims, and Jews got shit to go on. I'm gonna go do a jig.
 ARadicalPunk
Joined: 1/27/2010
Msg: 113
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History
Does Religion cause Wars
Posted: 4/2/2013 3:19:34 AM
Drink, I'm going to have to agree with Igor here on the point of religion having some credit to inspire Philosophy. Many things evolved from baser, flawed, or rudimentary understandings. At one time we had Alchemy, and now we have Chemistry, at one time we had Apothecaries, and now we have Modern Medicine, at one time we had Symbols, and now we have Literature, at one time we had only Religion, and now we have Philosophy. Of course some of these more "mundane" practices and understandings exist, but humans are evolving from such beginnings. Religion has its place if only to teach us the atrocities, wrongs, and moral evils we committed; and to inspire us not to seek knowledge just for the sake of knowledge, but to really ask the hard questions and act on them.

But I don't agree that Religion, or "spiritual belief system," does not cause wars when it specifically exists to indoctrinate its youth into a belief (and not a life style without indoctrination) that incorporates harm, segregation, hate, and violence. Not all religions do this, but the big three certainly do, and they do it with an arrogance that has persisted the ages. The Torah, Quran, and Bible (and their subsequent faiths and belief structures) all rationalize (morals) their heinous actions through cherry picking of their books, and whatever suits their world views at the time; and will be used in defense of their so called "causes." This is a naturally reoccurring phenomena.

The worst part, is these three religions can scape goat their responsibilities to man by conversing with bed time stories. So how do these belief systems not, "in and of [themselves]," cause wars? They indoctrinate, they lie, and they manipulate their youth, and try to convert others into these deplorable actions. This still exists today, the Catholic church is still passing mandates that harm humans, who still commit pedophilia, who still wage wars all on faith, who still cut the genitalia of women, and who still segregate and control women, who will kill in extreme cases, and who wish the death of any man or woman who openly confess to same sex relationships--lets not forget how they teach self loathing, self hate, and self harm.

The middle east is a prime example of all the religious base battles and squabbles that go on and that lead to the deaths of thousands--hell the United Nations even went to the middle east because of this nucking futs Muslims (mostly Americans) but that didn't stop these extremists from blowing up shit all around the world. We need only look to the Americas and Europe to see the countless lives stolen from religious zealots who murder homosexuals in the name of faith or God, and keep social segregation alive and well (ugh). We only need to look to the Catholic church to see how they constantly get away with pedophilia and rape, and their decadence.

All that is not a phenomena to you in this day and age? These are all highly abnormal actions, and especially for educated and industrialized countries. Corruption will exist, and does exist in the absence of Religion, but surely this shit is just not "normal."

This phenomena gives humans two choices: Follow the word of God or burn in hell, and people call this free will? Yeah, that isn't normal in the least.
 IgorFrankensteen
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 114
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History
Does Religion cause Wars
Posted: 4/2/2013 10:38:06 AM
Another minor point: I have not myself said, nor do I believe that religions have never contributed to warfare or other bad behaviors by humans . Religions are among the many creations of humankind, and they have managed to use pretty much every single thing they've ever come up with, to do both good and not so good things.

What I am adamant about is specifically that not all the nasty acts of any kind committed in the name of religion, should logically be blamed on the religion itself. In the same way, the fact that some atheists have done atrocious things to others, and claimed that their atheist ideals were why they did so, does not logically support the notion that atheism itself causes such bad behavior.

Another way to come at it: in order to declare that "religion causes wars," from the point of view of dispassionate logic, you have to show how the act of believing and following the religion you are speaking of, leads directly to the bad behaviors you want to blame upon it. It's not enough to say that "such-and-such a nation or person committed horrific acts, AND they said it was for god." That would necessitate declaring that if anyone claims to be acting because of anything, that the thing they claim as an excuse, is in fact the cause of the bad behavior...not the person committing it. As soon as you do that, you might as well declare that everything causes wars.
 looking4her2335
Joined: 1/23/2013
Msg: 115
Does Religion cause Wars
Posted: 4/2/2013 1:33:54 PM

In the same way, the fact that some atheists have done atrocious things to others, and claimed that their atheist ideals were why they did so...

I'm just curious, to what atrocious things do you refer?
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