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 Peppermint_Petunias
Joined: 3/30/2012
Msg: 101
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Instant Old AgePage 5 of 7    (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7)

Maybe it is. Maybe it isn't. But there is little-to-no regulation or responsibility in the promotion of products not marketed as drugs as long as they are careful not to make claims on the packaging of their products they can't back up with science.


Regulate salmon, broccoli? Tea? Garlic?
Minerals, heart healthy fats,spices and herbs were here long before drugs and more veggies/ EFA's for heart health is proven scientifically to help those that have certain heart issues.
Even the AHA says so and they are behind the times.
People dont ( in general ) want to change anything, they want a pill.

Its certainly not ALL the drug companies/Drs fault. Its the patients too.


"alternative" products be completely unregulated if they can't be 100% proven dangerous in three months. Surprising?

Just how is good, natural food "alternative " in the way YOU mean it? (as quackery).
How is not consuming sugar and grains which is known to be bad for all health issues "alternative"?

If you cant/wont get in the minerals or fats you need by food, I see no harm in taking magnesium in the correct form or other supplements you lack in your diet if you know what you need , what form and how much is safe.

If you are going to pop pills anyway why not vitamin C, an omega 3 or D3?
Some wont eat garlic..They can take garlic in a capsule that has been studied like Kyolic ( one example of a good one), not a cheap bulk store brand with no research behind it.

I dont know if you ever drank well water, many friends in the country had well water when i was growing up. It stank like eggs. It was the sulfur.

You can't get enough sulfur in most diets today because the soil is depleted of most minerals( esp sulfur) and most soil is contaminated also.

I'm taking my MSM and it got me off vioxx for joint pain,plus many good side effects other than pain relief .
Esp notable in skin and nail health, injury recovery.
Research has show some anti cancer/noninflammatory side effects also.

If good food, avoiding bad food, a few herbs/mineral rich foods/or even a supplement and good fats do not help you, then see about an Rx is my point.

Not suggesting to not talk to your Dr about it, I recommend it.
 Ed Bear
Joined: 5/19/2007
Msg: 102
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Posted: 1/23/2014 2:41:23 AM
Sure, I take vitamin C when I have a cold, and would consider D if I needed it. They're well-tested and proven. Foods as sources of nutrients and drugs are also often well-documented; they're not the ones lobbying against disclosure and regulation, either.

Salmon, Broccoli, Tea, Garlic and such all have very extensive regulations governing their manufacture and use. Not to mention any health claims.

And we know about the safe and less-than-safe use of these substances. Exactly as we do with statins, of course. Read and sue as directed. If in doubt, consult a physician or pharmacist.

Odd you'd mention sulfur, Peppermint - I never hear anything about sulfur supplements except from gardeners with mold problems. Is sulfur deficiency rampant?
ED BEAR
 Peppermint_Petunias
Joined: 3/30/2012
Msg: 103
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Posted: 1/23/2014 4:28:57 AM

Odd you'd mention sulfur, Peppermint - I never hear anything about sulfur supplements except from gardeners with mold problems. Is sulfur deficiency rampant?
ED BEAR

Yes.

Not ODD at all I would mention it.
There is a deficiency of sulfur in Americans diets as well as magnesium.

http://www.westonaprice.org/vitamins-and-minerals/sulfur-deficiency

In almost all of my wellness/nutritional research on minerals all list sulfur as something we should add to our diets in the form of MSM.
Methylsulfonylmethane, commonly known as MSM, is not a drug. It's an organic form of sulfur and a potent antioxidant.MSM Common health complaints associated with low concentrations of MSM in your body include: Fatigue,depression, sensitivity to physical and psychological stress, degenerative diseases, slow injury recovery, some claim even obesity, allergies.

MSM's ability to reduce inflammation is one of the greatest and one of the most inexpensive discoveries in the health field, and is thought to be particularly beneficial in the prevention of heart disease. It has been shown to break down the plaque in your arteries, which is associated with chronic inflammation.

Most multis that contain sulfur ( MSM) are sold to improve hair, skin, nails, asthma and pain.
Its so much more than that and these multis usually have a low amount in them, yet can make a difference
Cancer and any inflammatory condition.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2198910/

Some foods do contain sulfur but you would need to consume a lot to get what we need for optimal health.
Those with chronic inflammation and pain need to look into supplementation.
Those wanting to feel better and fight disease also.

http://www.naturopathic-physician.com/index.php?page=43
Start out low and go higher so its detoxifying effect wont be to rapid if you intend to
cooperate it into your diet.
1000 mg a day for a week is ave and go to 3000 in divided dose.
The ave would benefit greatly at 2000 mg
After injury and during illness some people take temporarily doses of 10,000 mg.
Thats not what most of us need.

Discuss with a nutritionist or knowledgeable physician on minerals and the importance of them
 or_current_resident
Joined: 6/3/2013
Msg: 104
Instant Old Age
Posted: 1/23/2014 8:04:24 AM

Discuss with a nutritionist or knowledgeable physician on minerals and the importance of them


I have & they said with my well rounded diet & eating habits etc, there is no need to ingest extra supplements in to my body. But if I do the grass will always be greener over the septic tank ! ^^^^

And they [Medical & Science Professionals] also said to take note when you hear these various claims from the medical field and from all the alternative health folks out there, to first check out "quack watch" on the net.
As you will get the whole un bias reports on each subject, in that is true and what is totally not. I find this site very helpful when I hear these various claims & cures and other wise….

As always... to good health &……. better knowledge...
 satx78218
Joined: 10/30/2007
Msg: 105
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Posted: 1/23/2014 10:10:51 AM
did somebody say quackwatch?

http://health-report.co.uk/quack_busters_scam_revealed.htm
 or_current_resident
Joined: 6/3/2013
Msg: 106
Instant Old Age
Posted: 1/24/2014 2:29:42 PM
Did someone say quack……..enjoy & good health…...


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0026749/
 Ed Bear
Joined: 5/19/2007
Msg: 107
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Posted: 1/28/2014 12:39:10 PM
I'm not going to get into arguments about specific nostrums for specific conditions, but MSM IS a chemical, and it IS a drug, though not regulated as such. ANYTHING that is taken to specifically produce health effects is a drug.

The anti-quackwatch site, which attacks scientific medicine as usual, is full of insult and invective, but its own text serves as a warning to us all about how much of the over-strained health-care dollar is expended on unproven treatments for undemonstrated problems. And it generously exhibits the self-serving bias it alleges in others.
ED BEAR
 Peppermint_Petunias
Joined: 3/30/2012
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Posted: 1/28/2014 1:53:08 PM

but MSM IS a chemical, and it IS a drug

We need chemicals.
You are" pro drugs" from what I glean from your posts, IF YOU choose to call it one, then so what?

Some other "chemicals" (including your vitamin C) magnesium, potassium, calcium ect ect. We need a lot of "chemicals" for health.
Is magnesium and vitamin C a drug according to BEAR?

MSM extracted from organic source (organic - from living source) is highly bio-available, compatible at the cellular level and beneficial to health.
An extensive amount of scientific data exists in MSM, having been the subject of numerous research studies dating to the 1940s.
MSM has been shown to be safe by several studies. In thirty years there have been no reported adverse events to MSM. Important to note that sulfa is not sulfur.


You do need to be aware of where MSM comes from as well as your vitamin C .
 Ed Bear
Joined: 5/19/2007
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Posted: 2/2/2014 1:22:02 AM
I'm pro-science, in medical practice, drug therapy, nutrition and lifestyle.

Magnesium and Vitamin C are chemicals. (Magnesium is also an element.) They can both be used as drugs, though neither is regulated as such.
ED BEAR
 mitchozie
Joined: 3/11/2009
Msg: 110
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Posted: 3/22/2014 4:31:50 PM
I just found this video on youtube, although it was published a couple of years ago. I wish I had found it sooner, because it has shown me that my experiences weren't unique.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=robzC_tZZ1o
 mitchozie
Joined: 3/11/2009
Msg: 111
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Posted: 10/26/2014 10:53:30 PM
Doctors, who know, won't take this poison:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2582958/Statins-Millions-healthy-Britons-set-prescribed-GPs-say-wont-statins.html
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
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Posted: 11/1/2014 6:18:45 PM

Doctors, who know, won't take this poison:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2582958/Statins-Millions-healthy-Britons-set-prescribed-GPs-say-wont-statins.html


That's a rather simplistic and juvenile view.

Doctors "who know", expect up to 10% of patients to develop mylagias on statins. For most patients it's a mild side effect and no big deal. It is not a contraindication to statins. Either lower the dose, or, like anything in medicine, if the side effects do not make the benefits worthwhile, stop it.
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
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Posted: 11/1/2014 6:33:29 PM

We need chemicals.
You are" pro drugs" from what I glean from your posts, IF YOU choose to call it one, then so what?

Some other "chemicals" (including your vitamin C) magnesium, potassium, calcium ect ect. We need a lot of "chemicals" for health.
Is magnesium and vitamin C a drug according to BEAR?

MSM extracted from organic source (organic - from living source) is highly bio-available, compatible at the cellular level and beneficial to health.
An extensive amount of scientific data exists in MSM, having been the subject of numerous research studies dating to the 1940s.
MSM has been shown to be safe by several studies. In thirty years there have been no reported adverse events to MSM. Important to note that sulfa is not sulfur.


You do need to be aware of where MSM comes from as well as your vitamin C .


You seem confused about 'drugs' and chemistry. Of course we need 'chemicals' for health. What do you think you're made of? In pharmacology a drug is any substance that exerts a biological effect, used for treatment or prevention of disease, or enhances well being.

Magnesium is most certainly a drug- it is used in cardiac arrest from Torsades, it is used as a treatment status asthmaticus, it is used in pre-eclampsia. Being derived from 'organic sources' has nothing to do with whether something is a drug or otherwise. We have immunoglobulins extracted from human plasma- it is a drug in every sense. Before recombinant insulin, we extracted porcine insulin for diabetics. Is exogenous insulin some sort of organic supplement? There is nothing natural about synthesising vitamin C in a lab and packaging it into a pill, or taking higher doses than any human population would ever come across in nature (particularly with the intravenous Vit C treatments).

 Peppermint_Petunias
Joined: 3/30/2012
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Posted: 11/3/2014 4:14:40 AM
^^^^^^^

I'm sure most of us know anything you take internally can be a drug, esp plants/herbs..
When I refer to drugs the next time when I mean the Rx form I will say so since you know what I am saying and just want to argue.
Garlic and other foods/herbs are"drugs" .
Let food be thy medicine.

Remember the thread where I said garlic is being studied to fight/cure brain tumors and you were so sarcastic?
Garlic has been used as both food and medicine in many cultures for thousands of years, dating at least as far back as the Giza pyramids.

Garlic is full of sulfur and other chemicals/elements that are helpful to human health.
Allicin,highly valued for sulfur compounds—stays intact for only 2-16 hours at room temperature when it is in extract or capsule form. But when it's still inside of crushed garlic, allicin will stay viable for 2-1/2 days.So crush your garlic raw in EVOO and let sit for 10-15 minutes for therapeutic heart and immune health.
Store in refrig leftover oil for a couple of days and enjoy on most proteins and veggies
Garlic may help improve your iron metabolism. That's because the diallyl sulfides in garlic can help increase ferroportin.Sulfur fights cancers.
For more on garlic if you don't have a book handy on this "wonder plant/food/DRUG"
Go to
http://authoritynutrition.com/11-proven-health-benefits-of-garlic/

I never said all drugs ( RX's) were bad.
Many have been derived from nature in the past but now they ( FDA) are only concerned with profits and aren't that interested in plant derived drugs like digitalis.
Anyone can grow or eat garlic and benefit as long as a Physician says its OK in therapeutic amounts for the condition/s a person has.
Certainly anyone on a blood thinner should ask.


When was the last drug ( RX) that was a cure/sure preventative? POLIO? I'm not sure since its been so long.

Then we have Ginger..Ginger has an extremely high level plant substances with a healing effect. Has beneficial effects on the heart ,anti-cancer activity , anti-inflammatory effects and its high content of anti-oxidants. The healing ingredients are a variety of essential oils, vitamin B6 and C, and the minerals calcium, magnesium, sulfur, phosphorus and potassium. Ginger stimulates body heat. It speeds up the blood circulation ( great for the mojo) and sweating. Ginger will stimulate fever in people who need to sweat out diseases like colds and flues, Lyme disease and more. It works as an anti-inflammatory, and in combination with the heat-stimulating characteristics it is a powerful tool in fighting arthritis.pain and can even aid in thermogenisis/body heat ( burning fuel/calories) in its natural form, the root.
Most dont know it increases libido and can be a valued pain reliever,good for all circulation issues and even blood lipids since most know it only as an anti nausea remedy.

Notice sulfur in both of these plants. Sulfur heals.

Yes magnesium can be used as a drug as well as potassium and other elements.

As always, please check with your physician/nutritionist/herbalist that has a complete medical work up including any drugs you are taking or disease you may have.

There can be side effects to natural medicine as well such as garlic/ginger/turmeric etc.
.
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
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Posted: 11/3/2014 8:39:13 PM

When was the last drug ( RX) that was a cure/sure preventative? POLIO? I'm not sure since its been so long


Since when has there been a 'sure thing' in biology? Treatments can be curative, prophylactic, or aimed to extend life or well being. A worthwhile intervention does not require 100% efficacy, it requires better effect than placebo. All vaccines are preventive medications, and most are not (and do not need to be) 100% effective, including polio vacccine.


Many have been derived from nature in the past but now they ( FDA) are only concerned with profits and aren't that interested in plant derived drugs like digitalis.


Digoxin is still used in rate control of AF, and many drugs are derived from nature. Do you think people with AF should drink foxglove tea instead, having little idea of what dose of digitalis they are ingesting, and risk either a subtherapeutic or a toxic effect?
 Peppermint_Petunias
Joined: 3/30/2012
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Posted: 11/4/2014 4:14:06 AM

Digoxin is still used in rate control of AF, and many drugs are derived from nature. Do you think people with AF should drink foxglove tea instead, having little idea of what dose of digitalis they are ingesting, and risk either a subtherapeutic or a toxic effect?

Get ridiculous much?


More people die from RX overdoses/mixing RX's in this country than any illegal drug.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6101a3.htm

Narcotic overdose ( RX) seem to be the front runner.
http://www.cdc.gov/homeandrecreationalsafety/rxbrief/

OTC medications , OTC mixed with RX's and esp Tylenol/ acetaminophen is the leading cause of acute liver failure, just read the studies from 1998-2003, and 48% of these cases were accidental.

I didn't pull these numbers out of my "ear".
There are many the CDC can't even know about.Its not like people get an automatic autopsy and drug screening that includes tylenol or all prescribed RX drugs when they have been sick and then die.

Don't see a list of seaweed, ginger, garlic, green tea,vitamin c, MSM listed anywhere as some nationwide epidemic of overdoses and death by the CDC.

Anyhoo
 HFX_RGB
Joined: 7/26/2014
Msg: 117
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Posted: 11/4/2014 4:17:49 AM

Many have been derived from nature in the past but now they ( FDA) are only concerned with profits and aren't that interested in plant derived drugs like digitalis.


What profits is the FDA concerned about and how are they connected to those profits?

Also what proof do you have that they are not interested in plant derived drugs?
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
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Posted: 11/4/2014 11:05:40 AM

Get ridiculous much?

Don't see a list of seaweed, ginger, garlic, green tea,vitamin c, MSM listed anywhere as some nationwide epidemic of overdoses and death by the CDC.

Anyhoo


Only because you're comparing pharmaceuticals with food.

Seaweed, ginger, garlic, green tea etc have very very weak, if any, therapeutic effect, of course few people die of it. It doesn't have anything in high enough concentration, of anything, to kill anybody.

On the other hand, if you used foxglove for rate control, you have absolutely no idea how much you're giving, compared a the active drug (digoxin) with a known concentration.

The dose makes the toxin (and effect). Basic toxicology.
 Peppermint_Petunias
Joined: 3/30/2012
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Posted: 11/7/2014 3:38:12 AM

Also what proof do you have that they are not interested in plant derived drugs?

I will re word that for you.

I have no secret documents marked classified for you to examine. If you have worked with/for pharmaceutical companies for a time , with/for Physicians, been in a family of physicians since birth, you would KNOW what I am saying is true.

Patients are to blame also, they want and ask for a RX to fix ills and just go on doing what they have been that got them in the condition they are in in many cases.

You cannot get a patent on a plant, vitamin, mineral or herb unless its mixed, modified or extracted by some process you can patent or bound in some way to a chemical that can be patented.

Drug companies have stopped studies on many plant materials because they did not find they are not effective, but couldn't find a way to make it "their sole property" to sell.
Drug companies have to face stock holders, not patients or the morality police.

Look at when drugs have gone generic, some dug companies have modified a current name brand drug that works, has gone genetic so they change it and push the Drs to push that product over the generic.
Once the generic drug is on the market, the monopoly of the patent holder is done and that results in a significant drop in drug profits/costs, which could ensures that lifesaving and needed drugs reach the general population at comparative prices.

BUT
The company holding the initial patent may, renew the patent by forming a new version of the drug that is significantly or slightly changed compared to the original compound and here we go again with them pushing Drs to say they have a better version of the original drug to keep them coming back.

My knowledge of how drug companies work with Drs in kick backs and pay offs to prescribe their drugs is personal.
Many perks physicians still get to this day even though the laws have changed to try and stop them is still going on.

I am happy many in the research field are working at least with what nature has provided somewhat..
There has been pressure form patients and organizations, the knowledge we now have of so many RX drugs and the dangers that are out there easier to find out about, lawsuits abounding from side effects that are disastrous or even cause death.

Dr. Marcia Angell The Truth About the Drug Companies How They Deceive Us and What to Do About It.
Maybe an interesting read for some.^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Best advise I have is read everything you can, be informed, talk to a physician and phamasist that is interested in YOU. Knows your condition and what you can do to either skip taking the RX or take less of it.

If you need it to be independent and improve/extend your life, then do what you and your Physician, nutritionist think is best for YOUR particular situation.

We are bombarded with expensive advertising by drug companies directed at baby boomers in particular, but cant have a Budweiser commercial.
I talked with my pharmacist 2 weeks ago when prescribed 2 nausea drugs for vertigo.The Dr in the ER also prescribed Valium. Neither drug does anything for BPPV itself.
I talked with him for about 15 minutes and he told me a popular over the counter anti nausea product was just as good and had less side effects. I skipped both. 3 minutes of nausea I can live with a couple of times a day or manage with ginger.
He said many people over 55 and esp 60 often take 13 RX drugs at a time off and on.

Also may like to peek at http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db42.htm
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
Msg: 120
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Posted: 11/7/2014 12:53:32 PM
The old conspiracy theory argument. Drug companies are only interested in ill health and all doctors are in on it, because they get bribed by muffins for journal club and cheap plastic pens.

Here, chew this weed and drink this herb, the alt health industry is driven by altruism.


I talked with my pharmacist 2 weeks ago when prescribed 2 nausea drugs for vertigo.The Dr in the ER also prescribed Valium. Neither drug does anything for BPPV itself.
I talked with him for about 15 minutes and he told me a popular over the counter anti nausea product was just as good and had less side effects. I skipped both. 3 minutes of nausea I can live with a couple of times a day or manage with ginger.


Neither does Ginger. The treatment is the Epley canalith repositioning maneuver, but poor prescribing is not a excuse to go to something else which does not work.

Then again, maybe the diazepam was for another indication, like helping the patient sleep for a few days while their vestibular organs recover. Or there was diagnostic uncertainty as to the type of peripheral vertigo.


You cannot get a patent on a plant, vitamin, mineral or herb unless its mixed, modified or extracted by some process you can patent or bound in some way to a chemical that can be patented.


Why bother spending millions on R&D when you can just package up vitamins. One of my best investments in the last 10yrs is a vitamin company- their ROE, margins and profit growth are comparable or better than any major pharmaceutical company. The ticker is BKL.asx
 Peppermint_Petunias
Joined: 3/30/2012
Msg: 121
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Posted: 11/8/2014 5:32:09 AM

The treatment is the Epley repositioning maneuver

^^^^^^^^Which was fabulously effective for me .

You read my post in the Vertigo thread which tells you I did and it worked.
 mitchozie
Joined: 3/11/2009
Msg: 122
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Posted: 11/20/2014 10:03:32 AM
For whatever reason, skyr feels that it's his duty to defend the pharmaceutical companies. As I have stated, from the beginning of this thread, big pharma's advertising and PR, will never trump my personal experience with statins. It's simply a case of the cure being worse than the nonexistent disease. I'm warning people not to be overly influenced by so-called scientific experts.
 Peppermint_Petunias
Joined: 3/30/2012
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Posted: 11/21/2014 2:56:20 AM
Michozie ,I think its great you started this thread and your experience is not uncommon.
The only side effect most people are concerned with or look to "blame on a statin" is weight gain, it seems to me by listening to people at the gym.(esp women I'm sorry to say).

You cant educate some, as they already" know everything" and have to experience something or see it to beleive it if it goes against what they are told/taught. That's not unusual, it's human nature unfortunately.

I think we all knew or had a kid or kids that maybe one would listen and know that the stove top would burn you and not put their hand on it because you told them it would burn them, then the one that just had to put their hand or the cat up there to see if you are telling the truth.

The first book I bought that focused on nutrition and not drugs was written by a M.D. mainly for M.D.s and its from 1972.
A New Breed Of Doctor by Allen Nitter
It's a book all M.D.s should have to read imo.

LOL @ little one investing in a vitamin co.
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
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Posted: 11/21/2014 3:28:39 PM
It is true, you can't educate some (they know everything because they read it on Mercola), but at times I feel compelled to point out misinformation and half truths :-)

All medications have side effects. For statins, about 10% will get myalgias. Severe side effects and complications are uncommon. Like anything, you weigh up risk vs benefit. For low risk cardiac patients, your benefit is low. For secondary prevention, it is incredibly effective.

Instead we have people advocating vitamin pills, which are neither effective, nor free of side effects. Your risk benefit ratio tends to infinity.

As for investments- if it makes money, it's not my concern how they do it. It was to debunk your argument that there is no money to be made in something that can't be patented. Absolute nonsense.
 Skyr
Joined: 3/30/2008
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Posted: 11/21/2014 3:30:08 PM

For whatever reason, skyr feels that it's his duty to defend the pharmaceutical companies. As I have stated, from the beginning of this thread, big pharma's advertising and PR, will never trump my personal experience with statins. It's simply a case of the cure being worse than the nonexistent disease. I'm warning people not to be overly influenced by so-called scientific experts


If you have had a heart attack, the disease is most certainly there. If you haven't, then statins are initiated based on a risk assessment. If you get severe side effects, then stop it. Most other people tolerate them just fine.

Not a particularly difficult concept.
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