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Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 37
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The Emperor's New ClothesPage 3 of 3    (1, 2, 3)
Aiieee! Not again.

Another thread about some general conceptual stuff , getting hijacked by people wanting to regrind the "I hate certain religions religion is bad" crud.
Joined: 1/15/2013
Msg: 40
The Emperor's New Clothes
Posted: 4/4/2013 7:50:27 AM

So... my question is: How do we get people to see reality without starting a war? Who is more likely to become enraged when their cognitive dissonance is pointed out?

Whose reality?

People accept / believe things because of a number of reasons. A few could be:

* Social acceptance
* Trust in the other to knowing better
* Security
* Benefits
* It makes sense
* They see no other reason not to think otherwise / can't be bothered
* It's not too detrimental or confronting enough to them for them to feel challenged enough to question it

There is benefit in walking down on the 'trodded path' or behaving to norms. It provides predictability.

You drive a certain route to work every day, because that's the path you know best that will get you there on time. There are other routes on the map, but you opt not to take those routes bcause you are unsure, and the one you are taking seems to work. I guess once you begin to experience traffic congestion or other issues, you may contemplate taking another route or taking ublic transport instead.

The best solution is not always mere obliteration. Like the Taliban in afghanistan were barbaric b****.... but truthfully, they were the only half decent thing Afghanistan had at the time after the Cold War. Without them there wouldve been more chaos perhaps. They were still idiots and needed to be 'obliterated'. But before you obliterate, you have to provide a better solution, and really delve into why they choose to remain the way they are... once you tap into their core thats when you will get people to freely and willingly follow you instead.
Joined: 11/14/2010
Msg: 43
The Emperor's New Clothes
Posted: 4/4/2013 2:43:18 PM
Trailsman5- Unless something is fact (a fact has to be provable), then it is an opinion.
Society is made up of all kinds, you have to take the good with the bad.
Some people are open minded, some aren't.
Personally, I am open minded and will listen to others opinions respectfully.
I don't always agree with people, but I respect their right to believe as they choose.
Not everyone is so open.
When I meet someone who is close minded, I just think, too bad for them and move on.
Life is too short to worry about negative people.
They are everywhere, but so are positive people and I try to focus on the positive.
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 45
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The Emperor's New Clothes
Posted: 4/4/2013 11:53:03 PM

In today's world, no one has seen a ghost (for example) either, but to suggest they aren't there is often met with fierce resistance and accusations of blasphemy.

Well, to be factual about that, lots of people have said that they have seen ghosts. So it's not accurate to say no one has, rather you have to say that you are convinced that these people are mistaken or deluded, or whatever.

In the context of the story that led you to start this thread about the Andersen story, I understand that you want to take a stand against harmful blind belief and warn against believing in something , just because a lot of other people around you seem to. I'm on your side in that for sure.

But I also caution against getting out of balance, and carried away in the other direction as well. Lots of people have got themselves so caught up in crusading against some dicey or outright bad idea, that they went too far, and actually turned truth-seeking into a self-deluding religion itself.

In other words, it isn't an act of wisdom or clarity, if all someone does is replace "always" with "never" (or the other way round).
Joined: 1/15/2013
Msg: 47
The Emperor's New Clothes
Posted: 4/5/2013 2:05:09 AM

The point I was making was to adress the question of 'how do you convert people to think like yourself' or 'see the light' so to speak.

Hitler's regime may have been comfortable for his elite fans, yet barbaric for the rest of humanity.
It is simply not enough to obliterate Hitler or Taliban or whoever and walk away.
It is also not enough or right to invade acting like a hero, then go about stealing their resources.

The USA did not invade Iraq or Afghanistan because they were justice and truth lovers. Iraq was under Saddam Hussain's dictatorship was decades. And in fact, the USA had pleasant dealings with him at one time... even the Taliban were US's helpers during the Cold War.

When did things get fiesty? When did Bin Laden and Hussain become the bogeyman? When they stopped cooperating. When it wa realised that the only way to get what they wanted was to get rid of the things that were in its way.

Justice delayed is still injustice.

Good intended justice is when you go to the rescue of someone as soon as one can and assist them to their needs... not your needs... not like, "Hey, I will help you so long as you give me your kidneys buddy."


There is objective reality, but the lines between objective and subjectie can be blurred.

Much of the medical advancements goiing on now depend a lot on government funding or public interest... so what happens is, they put out news about some miracle drug or procedure that will cure a certain iillness...
These doctors are most likely honestand truly believe in their assertions and projects.
The reality is, they are probably being a little too optimistic.

About 2 years ago, i was on the News as a 'hospital patient' who had just received a miracle medical treatment. I had an operation that really had little chance of success.
Anyway the hospital got in touch with the TV news channel an yeah, the very same day, the hospital started gtting calls fro interstate ... people asking if it could help this and that...

Anyway, 2 years on, I'm alright, but slowly deteriorating... but anyone who saw that segment probably thinks im going great and now that medical technology is so advanced that anythings possible... ive

There's just a lot more mystery that scientists have no yet figured out.. we just think we know so much...

How is walking on trodded /known path, a thing a dictator would say? Haven't you gone to university or school and studied from a textbook by some guy who lived maybe 100 years ago?
To become a doctor, you learn from the doctor himself... to become a mechanic, you learn from the mechanic himself... he's been there done that... you can very well learn by yourself.. it doesnt mean you have to stick to exactly what the doc/mechanic teaches you... you can tweak and improve on their knowledge too. But point is, past knowledge isnt redundan nor should it be discarded.
Joined: 1/15/2013
Msg: 49
The Emperor's New Clothes
Posted: 4/5/2013 4:56:15 AM

Tradition is the opposite of innovation. Those in power tend to want to keep the system that lets them stay in power, even if it is to society's detriment. It's why Mubarak kept emergency laws in place for 30 years and why the US has not reinstated habeas corpus.

Hmm, No.
Tradition IS innovation itself.
Dictators do not secure power via tradition so much as they they secure it via fear, propaganda, and millitary force.

Tradition, customs, and culture has generally been a means for communities to survive. There's good and bad tradition. One has to assess and measure tradition against morality and logic and needs.
Tradition DOES change. It just tends to act very slow to change, because of its self preserving element.
It ensures stability, yes. It ensures that capricious perverted ideas are not easily weaved in.
An element of justice is equality. Equality requires consistency. In law, especially, following tradition is important for this reason.
The key is in interpreting laws progressively.

even in the scientific world, tradition is needed - for example, research being peer reviewed. The very need for peer reviewing is tradition. An intelligent scientist/researcher would read up on previous work done in the area of interest and build on that knowledge or test it.

Anyway, I'm not here to advocate tradition. My purpose was to explain why people would resist new ideas.
Not all new ideas are beneficial.
Arguably, and ironically,
they may in fact use the scientific mindset for the skeptism.

It's like telling a man that there's an easier more effective route to a goal. And he responds with, "ha! Wheres your proof? My father, grandfather, uncle, mother, grandmother have all taken this route and it has served them well." They are, in effect, using rationality and tested proven examples.

How underfunded is Australia's school system that you have century old textbooks? What courses do you offer... advanced phrenology? Gramophone repair? Blacksmithing?

lmao, nah not underfunded at all. Way over funded imho lol.
There are modern authors but one cannot simply avoid the likes of:
Foucault b. 1926
Kant b. 1724
Marx b. 1818
Nietzche b. 1844
Durkheim 1858

etc etc

Some past knowledge should absolutely be discarded, especially when it doesn't stand up to scruitny. A false belief is a false belief no matter what century you're in.

Can you really discard knowledge? I think it's good to understand why even the false information got spread in the first place.
It remains to fascinate me how discarded ideas reappear in different forms.
Joined: 2/27/2010
Msg: 52
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The Emperor's New Clothes
Posted: 4/5/2013 4:43:57 PM
CureC> May I recommend a great short story for you:

it's from the New Yorker June 26, 1948 Shirley Jackson's "The Lottery"

Hopefully you will see why holding onto tradition is NOT in your best interest and thinking for yourself using critical thinking skills is.

Enjoy. (It's a favorite of mine).
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 54
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The Emperor's New Clothes
Posted: 4/6/2013 7:00:52 AM

WHY do people go off like this? What can we do to minimize that effect? Teach critical thinking to children with the same emphasis as we teach them to look both ways before crossing the street?

The way I consciously tried to teach my own children critical thinking and careful reasoning, was fairly simple. I listened carefully to them at all times, and responded as honestly and accurately as I could, and then asked them questions about what they were talking about, in order to understand them better. I do the same thing with grown ups, actually.

I believe that people will learn NOT to reason, and/or to think critically, if they are actively discouraged from doing so, or are rewarded for refusing to think. This is why I argue against anyone who pushes any blind agenda at all, even when I myself would benefit from it. It's why I so often add words of caution here, when someone proposes a "red flag" they want to chisel into stone. It's why I point out what flaws I can see in an argument, again, even when I agree entirely with the thrust of the argument itself.

Again and again, I have seen in history, and in daily life, that no matter how wise a saying is, no matter how brilliant an insight may be, and no matter how practical and useful a given belief might be, that it can be used incorrectly to cause hurt and pain and a worsening of life.

It's just really too bad, that demonstrations of excellent critical thinking, so rarely gets anyone laid.
Joined: 1/15/2013
Msg: 55
The Emperor's New Clothes
Posted: 4/6/2013 7:09:18 AM

(it's cure curious not care curious, stop innovating hehe)

So... doing things the way you've always done them is the same as doing things better? Do you even read what you type?

Absolutely. The real question is, do you read what I type?

Open a dictionary, and have a look yourself to see whether the antonym of tradition is innovation.

Let me pose this to you: Have you heard of the saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"?

The contradiction in *regular* innovation is that, it suggests that the thing innovated wasn't exactly good in the first place, hence the need for another innovation to take its place.

If it is a good innovation, one would assume that it would last a very long time before it needed any other further tweaking.

It's like MS Windows constantly telling you it has new patches and updates for your system. Perhaps with the fast changing internet environment and new ways of hacking methods, Microsoft has to develop new updates to improve its OS.
They make the 'innovating' of these new updates easy by allowing the customer to update by pressing a button.

But imagine, instead of these updates, Microsoft decided to bring out completely new versions of their operating system every 6 months to a year. Imagine we had Win 95, win 96, win 96a, win 96b....
Who would honestly take it or consider Microsoft to be a credible or reliable operating system?
Who would want to risk having to get used to a completely new interface, that essentially would be oing the same function but in a different way? I can gaurantee you that we will have more computer illiterates then if that sort of thing happened.

As mentioned, I do recognise the cons of traition. I personally do believe in progressive thought. But I also acknowledge the value in tradition.

With your response to the driver, yes, that is the sort of anwer required. Acknowledgement of the driver's need, and giving them a better alternative.

It's like telling a person drinking pepsi that their drink is crap. The person is going to say, "Well I'm thirsty, whether you say its crap or not, its quenching my thirst." Your merely saying pepsi is crap an cancerous or whatever isn't going to quench the thirst. You have to give a solution and aay... "Try coke, or try water."

spitfree i havent read that story but i will google it shortly.
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 56
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The Emperor's New Clothes
Posted: 4/9/2013 6:25:02 PM
Hopefully, Rathlinglight, you are joking. Just in case you are not, I suggest you go back and actually read the story. The point was that there never WAS any "invisible cloth."

By the way to thread an invisible needle with invisible thread, is to CLOSE YOUR EYES. True fact.
Joined: 1/15/2013
Msg: 57
The Emperor's New Clothes
Posted: 4/9/2013 7:58:37 PM
What if the emperor was wrapped in Glad Wrap (plastic see through food sotrage wrap)? It's not cloth/textile material, but he's wearing something. :D
Joined: 6/29/2009
Msg: 58
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The Emperor's New Clothes
Posted: 4/13/2013 5:08:56 AM
^^^ Okay then, we'll make you the King, and you can show off your finery. I'll leave you to it. You ARE missing the point of the Andersen fable. Morality Story. Fable. Final hint: FABLE.
Joined: 3/4/2013
Msg: 59
The Emperor's New Clothes
Posted: 4/15/2013 10:38:02 PM

How do we get people to see reality without starting a war?

Ask a person with Asperger's syndrome. They are fiercely literal-minded and incapable of lying. In fact, it would be great for all of us if they could be a little more outgoing.
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